Black Republican
Member
well, they used to be crazy republican red state
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PoliGAF 2013 |OT2| Worth 77% of OT1
- Thread starter The Librarian
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well, they used to be crazy republican red state
Lamentably, yes. Perhaps they'll still pass immigration reform, but I'd not hold my breath. Although, you should disregard the media's patently inane analysis. According to the media, the gridlock is the consequence of Obama's pusillanimity, incompetence, and aimless agenda (see Maureen Dowd). If only he were a more effective leader, Republicans would compromise. The mechanism for this? Magic, I suppose (hence, the underpants gnome theory of presidential power). They ignore the actual problem: institutional incentives combined with a historically obdurate Republican Party. Republicans are not going to acquiesce because Obama plays a round of golf with them or censures them publicly.
Note, not all media figures accept this nonsense.
Yes! If the Republicans remain intransigent, a certainty, then no meaningful legislation will be passed. I estimated immigration reform, especially a diluted bill, had the best prospects of success. But that was scuttled swiftly by Republicans. So the opportunity costs of an impeachment process are nominal. And the Senate would not convict him. Republicans are still smarting from their last illegitimate impeachment scheme. Perhaps they'd tarnish their reputation enough to lose the House in 2014.
Sirpopopop
Member
If there are White House connections - you can kiss good bye to Obama and you can kiss good bye to 2016.
Let's be blunt, Obama gets a very short leash and we all know the reasons why.
The next President is probably going to have an opportunity to replace Scalia/Ginsburg/Thomas/Breyer. The next President will also probably get 8 years to work with as I highly doubt the economy is going to crater any time soon. 2020 as you well know is when the house lines get redrawn again. A good ship up top for democrats will lift all boats across the states.
2016 is important.
If it's a Republican takeover you can also be sure that the PPACA is going to be repealed too.
I agree the speculation about 2016 is a bit annoying. But the importance of 2014 is reality. It's unlikely anything legislation of consequence will be passed in the 113th Congress. Winning the House is the last chance for Obama to pass meaningful legislation-not that I think it's likely for Democrats to flip the House.
Then they're doing it right. Noise over signal.
We heard the same NPR report this morning. I, too, was confused as to what the IRS did wrong. How are teabagger groups considered non-political and therefore worthy of tax exempt status?
empty vessel
Member
Although I am skeptical of conservative allegations about the impropriety of the IRS's actions, 501(c)(4) status does allow entities to engage in political activities, including unlimited lobbying. It simply prohibits that political electioneering be the primary purpose of the entity. That complicates things a bit. Still, the law is the law, and the law does require the IRS to identify organizations that might be wrongfully claiming 501(c)(4) status because of their political activities. That's exactly what the IRS was doing and it was doing it in response to reports in the media that organizations were abusing their status. I view the situation more as one of conservative representatives running interference for conservative 501(c) entities--who spent over 5 times more on the last election than such liberal entities--to give them more space in which to influence elections through anonymous donations.
And in nov and dec 2014/2015/all of 2016 save for nov/dec:
Jackson50 said:
And so on...
We've been playing the "waiting game" for two and a half years now. do you have any idea how absolutely pathetic this is? As an American, I hate that year after year all we do is wait for next year.
Sirpopopop
Member
LosDaddie - It's something to tarnish the Obama administration with, that's the point. "THIS IS JUST LIKE WATERGATE!"
Look, the Republicans are going to impeach Obama the first chance he gets. Of course, he'll get acquited by the Senate, but the point is to drive the country's confidence down in Democrats, much like they did in the late '90s.
GaimeGuy - that's just it. The only way shit gets done in this country is if it's done via a primarily conservative policy. The days of the left enacting progressive policy in the United States at a national level is dead for a few years.
Also, when Republican policies fail, it's not the Republican's failed policies that are at fault. It's the fault of "entitled" people wanting a "hand out." Enough of the country goes along with this line that nothing can be done. Especially when the other side is rational and doesn't hold to a fixed viewpoint year after year.
Look, the Republicans are going to impeach Obama the first chance he gets. Of course, he'll get acquited by the Senate, but the point is to drive the country's confidence down in Democrats, much like they did in the late '90s.
GaimeGuy - that's just it. The only way shit gets done in this country is if it's done via a primarily conservative policy. The days of the left enacting progressive policy in the United States at a national level is dead for a few years.
Also, when Republican policies fail, it's not the Republican's failed policies that are at fault. It's the fault of "entitled" people wanting a "hand out." Enough of the country goes along with this line that nothing can be done. Especially when the other side is rational and doesn't hold to a fixed viewpoint year after year.
smokeandmirrors
Banned
Yep. It's disgusting. Nothing more than a "Ignore our shitty policies and the fact that we're stymying any legislation in the country because we're whiny cunts here's something more important!11!!".
I hate this place sometimes.
Pretty much how I view it. How is there any proof that they're scrutinizing them any more than liberal groups? There are more of them and they're spending more money... and they're explicitly calling themselves Tea Party groups (you know, political things!).
I just don't see any evidence that they were explicitly doing anything wrong and that this isn't just politicians giving their helping hand a little helping hand of their own.
Realistically we should be scrutinizing the fuck out of all of these groups. Sure, if they're just letting liberal groups skate by with no scrutiny then there's a problem, but of the reports I've seen nothing really states anything like that... it just says they were giving scrutiny to a lot of conservative ones.
But, meh, the whole thing's dumb and it's an obvious loophole for electioneering.
The Librarian
Banned
Excellent point, Senator Burr! https://twitter.com/SenatorBurr/status/334690167484989440
cooljeanius
Member
That was back when Republicans hadn't gone off the deep end yet.
Jackben
bitch I'm taking calls.
@senatorburr:
"#POTUS found out about the #IRSscandal & #APprobe via the news? -- advocates for bigger govt but cant seem to keep up with his own admin"
Jail time for scrutiny.
Scrutiny
In other words, the IRS was making damned sure they were making the right call. And that equates to jail time. Righto, GOP....
Have they even found a case of wrongful denial of that status or anything? I mean, fuck...
Here ya go,
"#POTUS found out about the #IRSscandal & #APprobe via the news? -- advocates for bigger govt but cant seem to keep up with his own admin"
It is pathetic. And unfortunate. And you can hate it all you want, but it doesn't change reality. We play the waiting game because Republicans control the House. Until they change, fat chance, or they're removed from power, we're stuck with gridlock. So discussing the next election is reasonable to me-to an extent, at least. It's not as though election discussion predominates PoliGAF.
Haha. It's common sense.
Angry Fork
Member
On the one hand I want the Obama admin. to be completely eviscerated from every corner on civil liberties and the continuation of Bush policies.
On the other I do realize this isn't likely to usher in a further left alternative, it will just convince people to vote republican because people don't know they would be worse.
On the other I do realize this isn't likely to usher in a further left alternative, it will just convince people to vote republican because people don't know they would be worse.
Regardless of what you think about the republicans in general, they are keeping the administration on a tight leash at the moment which can be a force for good in some respects. This is what the democrats should have done during Bush's term when patriot act was passed in such a hurry and so on.
No transparency in the financial system
Whistle blowers sent to jail
International treaties violated
Black sites still in operation
A rather impractical health care legislation instead of real reform
Blood and treasury still wasted in pointless wars
More regulations and taxes to kill of the entrepreneurial spirit of the common worker while huge mega corporations are excluded and allowed to kill competition....... the list goes on.
And this is somehow a progressive administration worth fighting or making excuses for? Reason why your government is so inefficient these days is this mindset of begging to be screwed over by your own team. But on the other hand I do understand where it stems from, the way American media works is absolutely horrible for any sort of democratic process. My own Mormon relatives get their news from absolute garbage sources and would have celebrated a Romney win like people in here did 6 months ago.
No transparency in the financial system
Whistle blowers sent to jail
International treaties violated
Black sites still in operation
A rather impractical health care legislation instead of real reform
Blood and treasury still wasted in pointless wars
More regulations and taxes to kill of the entrepreneurial spirit of the common worker while huge mega corporations are excluded and allowed to kill competition....... the list goes on.
And this is somehow a progressive administration worth fighting or making excuses for? Reason why your government is so inefficient these days is this mindset of begging to be screwed over by your own team. But on the other hand I do understand where it stems from, the way American media works is absolutely horrible for any sort of democratic process. My own Mormon relatives get their news from absolute garbage sources and would have celebrated a Romney win like people in here did 6 months ago.
But as a cubs fan, this is all I am familiar with...
TacticalFox88
Banned
Everything in this post is so fucking wrong it hurts, but the bolded REALLY stuck out to me. Are you fucking insane?
The Librarian
Banned
Another excellent point! @SenatorBurr: The same administration that gave us the #IRSscandal is also in charge of the enforcement of #Obamacare
Jackben
bitch I'm taking calls.
Sadly I don't see a lot of the efforts from republicans as keeping the administration on a leash. More like trying to use any excuse to show the POTUS is completely illegitimate through ad hominem attacks on his character (kenya, muslim, birthers), overblown coverage and conspiracy regarding issues like Benghazi and the current tax and IRS scandals and inept blockage of any kind of legislation not proposed on their own terms.
I do however think this thread could use some level examples of intelligent and balanced conservative and republican leaders who focus on real issues of concern. Just don't ask me where to find them because I really don't know where to start.
Shit has gone down during the Obama administration that whether directly initiated by it or not is extremely bad. Besides worrying drone stuff the ruling regarding corporations = people still really sticks out as an awful precedent to me as well as my perceived treatment of whistle-blowers by the admin.
I do however think this thread could use some level examples of intelligent and balanced conservative and republican leaders who focus on real issues of concern. Just don't ask me where to find them because I really don't know where to start.
Shit has gone down during the Obama administration that whether directly initiated by it or not is extremely bad. Besides worrying drone stuff the ruling regarding corporations = people still really sticks out as an awful precedent to me as well as my perceived treatment of whistle-blowers by the admin.
empty vessel
Member
I don't think you need conservatives to criticize Obama. There are people in this forum and this thread who are fiercely critical where it counts, including myself. I am not skeptical of claims about the IRS in order to defend the Obama administration. I am skeptical of claims about the IRS because they appear to me to be part of a conservative effort to make it easier to use anonymous donations to 501(c)(4) entities to influence elections, which I view as bad for society.
This is not to say that conservative criticism of Obama will never be on point. It's just that it isn't likely to ever be, because political conservatives--regardless of how "intelligent" or "balanced" they may be--generally want to shape society in ways that are bad for the individuals living in it.
No.
I dislike the True Finns party inside my own country as I don't share their views in many instances but at least they use the media and constantly go on about issues related to the economic situation within the EU. Debt collateral, undemocratic process in these bailout packages and so on.
Republicans raving on about IRS keeps workers in the public sector on their toes, you are not going to get good governance without reacting to missteps (from citizen letters to discussion at the highest level of government). Over dramatic rhetoric will always be there, since it's also about scoring political points, but the long term implications are that people inside similar agencies will think two times before acting impulsively.
I don't know anything about the True Finns, but the problem with what the Republicans are doing is that they're not very interested in figuring out what went wrong inside the IRS (or at Benghazi, for that matter) and in punishing people appropriately. The lesson for public employees here is not "don't be evil", because if you look at the totality of what Congressional Republicans are doing it's pretty clear that they don't care if you've actually done wrong. The lesson here is to be really sure that nothing about your agency appears in the news where it might get seized upon by Republicans looking for a scandal. The lesson is just "keep your head down".
Hits the nail right on the fucking head.
Wait until 2014 so we can wait until 2016 and then wait some more until 2020!
Yeaahhhh!
Link
The Autumn Wind
Meanwhile, they'll now get to keep trying to buy elections without any checks and balances. Yep, sounds great to me.
What about keeping these stupid political organizations on their toes? You're not going to get good enforcement of policy without scrutinizing groups that are clearly trying to toe the line. If groups just get a free pass to be tax-exempt they'll take it, since it's all about gaming the system. The long term implications are that these organizations continue to get away with whatever they want and go far past the line into electioneering. I'd rather have political organizations think two times before applying for tax-exempt status.
Metaphoreus
This is semantics, and nothing more
I guess you can be skeptical of conservative allegations of impropriety, but what do you make of the allegations of impropriety coming from:
- Lois Lerner, director of the IRS' exempt organization division?
- The Treasury Inspector General for Tax Administration?
- Eric Holder, who, in announcing that a criminal investigation was being launched, called the actions "outrageous and unacceptable"?
- Barack Obama, who also called the alleged actions "outrageous"?
Dismissing this scandal as nothing more than "conservative allegations of impropriety" ignores the fact that everyone believes the IRS conduct was improper, aside from staunch Obama apologists who can't stand the thought of a single stain on Obama's administration (regardless of whether responsibility can be traced to Obama himself).
EV's probably as far as you can get from an Obama apologist.
Aaron Strife
Banned
Hillary's coattails will give Democrats a House majority.
Unless she's still tainted by Benghazi lolololololafielgrlrfewbger;w34 at234
When you have such a rigid view towards your political opposition, you can easily make any excuses when there are allegations of misconduct by a specific government agency.
Just like my relatives believe this current administration is doing everything in its power to undermine the constitution of the United States and tries to use tragedies solely to impose their own misguided views. As a result anything is fair game, because the most important point is to stop "Obama and his crooks" from bringing the country down.
You know, the idea that liberals - regardless of how intelligent or balanced they may be - generally want to shape society in ways that.....
Black Mamba
Member
This isn't a stain on Obama, it's a stain the IRS. And from what has been gathered, only some rogue officials who disobeyed upper management.
I mean, why not just blame a public school teacher having sex with his student on Obama while we're at it?
Carpe Libertatem
Member
No, the long-term implications are that the IRS is now never going to touch political organizations - regardless of whatever party they work for - because they fear partisan backlash. And that is bad for the United States. We need more transparency, not less.
Think openly racist about the Swedish minority in Finland (not to mention other minorities), very nationalistic, socially conservative, anti-"globalist"/EU/NATO. Although they strangely have strong support for the welfare state.
Sirpopopop
Member
Can you name one good policy idea that American conservatives have?
Metaphoreus
This is semantics, and nothing more
Relax. You must have misread my post: I'm not pinning the blame on Obama. As of now, there's no evidence that Obama was involved in this mess (unless on the basis of ignorance--i.e., someone could argue that he should have known this was going on, then try to fault him for not knowing).
Sirpopopop
Member
A stain on Obama's administration is a stain on Obama. Mamba's point is still valid.
Metaphoreus
This is semantics, and nothing more
If a stain on Obama's administration is automatically a stain on Obama, then Mamba's point is most certainly not valid, because then we can just skip the part where we personally tie any misconduct or incompetence to Obama.
EDIT:
Also, of course, his question about public school teachers is misconceived--they aren't even federal employees, much less a part of Obama's administration.
electricpirate
Member
Worth noting, a credible opposition to Obama might have gone helped things. I mean, republicans fought FOR the bolded, (also the point of CIA black sites is wrong, as far as we know they have been closed).
But more than that, a credible opposition that acted in accordance to conservative limited government principles would have had some credibility standing against Obama's executive overeach. As it stands, when you have the people who celebrated bush and Alberto Gonzalez criticizing Obama's prosecution of whistleblowers, and defending the Plame incident, you can't do much but shrug.
As for the others, I mean, if Republicans had been willing to actually horse trade on health reform, we could have had a less complicated system, possibly things like a public option, along with republican goals like interstate insurance sales and tort reform at large scales. As it is, we probably got something worse from republican, "No at all costs nihilism." We've also gotten expansions of executive power, because, well, if congress won't do things, then the executives gotta do something.
A sane republican party would have been a far better agent to tamp down the worst element of the president than the nutballs we have now.
Why would that be the result since this was about IRS scrutinizing specific voter groups unfairly - it would be a big scandal over here as well. Isn't this the same logic that certain factions use when racial profiling is critiqued? "Oh great job, now the police will not be able to touch certain demographics in order to prevent crime. These communities need to be investigated"
Everyone is supposed to get equal treatment regardless of who they are about to vote in an election.
Sirpopopop
Member
You are arguing that this is an Obama administration scandal. Mamba is stating that these government employees have as much a connection to the Obama administration as a public school teacher.
Sirpopopop
Member
No.
This will be ignored when a Republican comes into office and the NAACP gets audited.
Acorn will be revived just to be killed again.
Black Mamba
Member
But it's not to be blamed on his Administration either.
Like, I'm fine with the argument that he picks people and if they fuck up, he's ultimately responsible. If the head of the FBI orders illegal wiretap on citizens, that's on Obama. But this wasn't the IRS director doing this (hell, it originally happened under the old one appointed by Bush). It happened by rogue officials who disobeyed orders from up top.
There is nothing anyone can do if the people that work for you take it upon themselves to do things against orders except deal with it when it comes to light (which is what was done).
There is no stain on Obama or his administration. There is zero connection. This is no different than claiming Congress can't pass a deal because Obama isn't leading. It's a mountain of bullshit.
The story here is: "IRS middle-men do something bad despite orders to stop."
The story is not "White House Administration oversees IRS targeting conservative groups."
Metaphoreus
This is semantics, and nothing more
Which is obviously false, like I pointed out.
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