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PoliGAF 2016 |OT15| Orange is the New Black

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S

sc0la

Unconfirmed Member
pigeon said:
I do actually like you so I'll try one more time with reduced aggression.

You genuinely don't seem to understand the degree to which white nationalism was the animating factor behind Trump's campaign.

Saying "no, it wasn't white nationalism, it was Wall Street" is, as I've been saying this whole year, legitimizing white nationalism and suggesting there are acceptable reasons to vote for a candidate that advocates violence against mnorities.

This has happened a lot in this thread tonight from people -- white male people -- who want to take defeat laps now that the candidate that beat their preferred candidate has been defeated. I understand that. But I consider it a moral failing in you and in them -- literally the exact same moral failing that causes people to vote for Donald Trump. A person who believes that some issues are potentially more important or worthy of consideration than the lives of people of color is literally not somebody I can safely coexist with.

Anybody who voted for Donald Trump because they don't like Wall Street is not somebody I can trust to care about my life or the life of my daughter. I do not wish to iterate on our campaign strategy to find a way to temporarily convince them to vote for a candidate who might care about our lives. This republic is not a safe place for me if it is filled with people like them, and like you. I want white socialists who will be allies with me, not allies with them.
Click to expand...
Wait pigeon isn't a super woke white dude? Mind blown.

Edit:
I feel like I just got bizarro ripclawe'd
 
A

Already Torn

Banned
Black Mamba said:
Donald Trump severely out performed Mitt Romney in every swing state.

Clinton basically performed as well as Obama in most swing states. And even in the ones she didn't, had she, she'd still have lost.

Trump actually found the missing white voters. And since every reliable Republican doesn't give a shit and will vote R unless shamed out of doing it (ala Akin), it doesn't matter anymore.

until this missing white voters die off, I don't see how you overcome it. Now the GOP knows all it has to do is pander directly to their racist, bigoted bullshit.
Click to expand...

I guess is comforting to know that they'll all die off quickly when he cuts health care and starts pumping toxic chemicals into the air again.
 
D

Deleted member 231381

Unconfirmed Member
pigeon said:
I do actually like you so I'll try one more time with reduced aggression.

You genuinely don't seem to understand the degree to which white nationalism was the animating factor behind Trump's campaign.

Saying "no, it wasn't white nationalism, it was Wall Street" is, as I've been saying this whole year, legitimizing white nationalism and suggesting there are acceptable reasons to vote for a candidate that advocates violence against mnorities.

This has happened a lot in this thread tonight from people -- white male people -- who want to take defeat laps now that the candidate that beat their preferred candidate has been defeated. I understand that. But I consider it a moral failing in you and in them -- literally the exact same moral failing that causes people to vote for Donald Trump. A person who believes that some issues are potentially more important or worthy of consideration than the lives of people of color is literally not somebody I can safely coexist with.

Anybody who voted for Donald Trump because they don't like Wall Street is not somebody I can trust to care about my life or the life of my daughter. I do not wish to iterate on our campaign strategy to find a way to temporarily convince them to vote for a candidate who might care about our lives. This republic is not a safe place for me if it is filled with people like them, and like you. I want white socialists who will be allies with me, not allies with them.
Click to expand...

Okay. Fine. Say it is white nationalism. America is overwhelmingly white nationalist, to the point that it is not possible to run against a white nationalist candidate and win, even when they have someone with years of experience and a firm grasp of policy. We'll also follow what you say: we'll rule out the possibility of even trying to appeal to white nationalists on non-white nationalist grounds - we are just saying we won't even contest that vote, despite the fact it wins the presidency against all the excoriation we launch at it.

What now?

Do we just concede that the Democrats will never retake the presidency? Because that's the conclusion of your argument.

If you want protection for minorities, you need to get at least some of the people who voted Trump to vote for the next Democratic nominee. That's just the truth of the matter. Anything else is letting what you'd like ideally get in the way of what you can achieve actually.
 
K

kevin1025

Banned
Suikoguy said:
It will be the newspapers, if they survive, to do the reporting. Unless it's juicy enough TV media won't touch anything. They sure as fuck don't investigate anything.
Click to expand...

Yep, exactly. And worse case scenario, which is on the table under his presidency, some of these papers have targets on their back come January.
 
M

Manmademan

Member
bachikarn said:
Is there definitely data to support that? Trump got less votes than Romney in WI for instance. Is is possible that Trump's numbers were more due to people who don't typically vote?
Click to expand...

He was over Romney in PA, but still below Obama's 2012 total...and nowhere near Obama 08. I want to say Kerry 04 was also in that range.

Clinton was below all of those numbers.

Republicans were energized here but not to some stratospheric number. A better candidate in a regular year would have beaten him.
 
V

Veelk

Banned
I keep half expecting some breaking story to appear and say that the ballots were massively miscounted or that evidence or Russian hacking has been uncovered. By any metric, this election makes no sense.
 
M

Mgoblue201

Won't stop picking the right nation
Angry Fork said:
I mean it's true we have our own widespread racist shit but I believe this stuff is created out of material conditions and it's possible to reverse, or at least sedate. People care less about blaming X group for their problems if they don't have that many problems.

As for the other guys romney and co. still looked like boring slimey dudes who would sell anyone out. To trump voters he's an honest guy who's going to get rid of all the assholes who sold them out.

With Bernie, I'm inclined to think the smarter people in the GOP basically felt this way about him (that his populist message was more dangerous to them than Hillary's weird better together thing):
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry...e-sanders-clinton_us_56bbafb3e4b0c3c5504ff6c7

He's right about how the average person viewed candidates this year and why the socialist moniker wouldn't have been a big deal compared to what he was saying.

After all Trump has said much worse things than Bernie can ever say about socialism and they still support Trump. Surely the millions of people who still supported Trump aren't all pro-sexual assault, pro-muslim registration, etc.? It just doesn't make sense imo and is a very cynical unrealistic view of the population.
Click to expand...
But it's very possible that what's driving the backlash isn't economic conditions, at least by most metrics, but instead unprecedented demographic change. That's why I've been skeptical about the left's prescription of more leftist economic populism. In fact, the socialist label probably would have seriously hurt Sanders (remember the ease with which the right was able to demonize everything Obama did as socialist). To the right, Sanders represents a certain kind of leftism that they reject. Maybe there's an argument that Sanders has an easier time uniting Democrats behind him, but that's speculation.
 
B

Black Mamba

Member
pigeon said:
I do actually like you so I'll try one more time with reduced aggression.

You genuinely don't seem to understand the degree to which white nationalism was the animating factor behind Trump's campaign.

Saying "no, it wasn't white nationalism, it was Wall Street" is, as I've been saying this whole year, legitimizing white nationalism and suggesting there are acceptable reasons to vote for a candidate that advocates violence against mnorities.

This has happened a lot in this thread tonight from people -- white male people -- who want to take defeat laps now that the candidate that beat their preferred candidate has been defeated. I understand that. But I consider it a moral failing in you and in them -- literally the exact same moral failing that causes people to vote for Donald Trump. A person who believes that some issues are potentially more important or worthy of consideration than the lives of people of color is literally not somebody I can safely coexist with.

Anybody who voted for Donald Trump because they don't like Wall Street is not somebody I can trust to care about my life or the life of my daughter. I do not wish to iterate on our campaign strategy to find a way to temporarily convince them to vote for a candidate who might care about our lives. This republic is not a safe place for me if it is filled with people like them, and like you. I want white socialists who will be allies with me, not allies with them.
Click to expand...

Very well said.

Like, no joke. I don't know how to look at someone who voted for Trump at all. I'm not saying I'm going to go out of my way to treat them shitty or anything like that.

But...I just don't know what to think about them at all. Like, they willingly voted for someone that represented bigotry on a national level. What do I do with this?

I am profoundly sad. I am sad not because we lost. I am sad because what I thought America had become was wrong. My grandmother, who I spoke of yesterday, was wrong.

I do not know if I belong in this country, anymore. I don't even know where I belong, anymore.

What do I do with this?
 
B

BoboBrazil

Member
Toxi said:
Cuban migrants have also had much easier entry into the USA than other Latinos, which makes it all the more galling.
Click to expand...

Yep, the second they touch land here they are pretty much legal and the second they do they think they are better than other hispanics or latinos and don't want them to come.
 
P

pigeon

Banned
Crab said:
Okay. Fine. Say it is white nationalism. America is overwhelmingly white nationalist, to the point that it is not possible to run against a white nationalist candidate and win, even when they have someone with years of experience and a firm grasp of policy. We'll also follow what you say: we'll rule out the possibility of even trying to appeal to white nationalists on non-white nationalist grounds - we are just saying we won't even contest that vote, despite the fact it wins the presidency against all the excoriation we launch at it.

What now?

Do we just concede that the Democrats will never retake the presidency? Because that's the conclusion of your argument.

If you want protection for minorities, you need to get at least some of the people who voted Trump to vote for the next Democratic nominee. That's just the truth of the matter. Anything else is letting what you'd like ideally get in the way of what you can achieve actually.
Click to expand...

I agree. The conclusion of the argument is that the republic is illegitimate.

Earlier this year I asked whether people loved democracy or whether they loved progressive values and civil rights and believed democracy was the best way to get them.

People said I was being silly.
 
K

KingBroly

Banned
The internet ground game helped Trump win tonight. Reddit, facebook, twitter, etc. This isn't a ground game that was tapped into by anyone except him. And as cringeworthy as it might be, it did mobilize his people.
 
D

damisa

Member
Crab said:
Why are people already flocking towards a Wall Street candidate after what just happened?
Click to expand...

Because Wall Street isn't evil. They are an important part of the economy. I won't vote for a DEM candidate like Bernie that goes too far with the Wall Street hate.
 
L

LotusHD

Banned
Black Mamba said:
Very well said.

Like, no joke. I don't know how to look at someone who voted for Trump at all. I'm not saying I'm going to go out of my way to treat them shitty or anything like that.

But...I just don't know what to think about them at all. Like, they willingly voted for someone that represented bigotry on a national level. What do I do with this?

I am profoundly sad. I am sad not because we lost. I am sad because what I thought America had become was wrong. My grandmother, who I spoke of yesterday, was wrong.

I do not know if I belong in this country, anymore. I don't even know where I belong, anymore.

What do I do with this?
Click to expand...

Same. I'm not a violent or confrontational person by any means, but every time I look at someone now, I can only wonder if they had voted for him. For those who openly reveal that they do support him, all I can do is avoid them and interact with them as minimally as possible. Well, in the upcoming months anyways. Right now I am seething, and the last thing I need to see is a Trump supporter.
 
D

Debirudog

Member
I just hope you all somehow get through this despite the insane fuckery Trump has in store for us. It's just too damn depressing to think of...but yeah, stay safe...
 
D

Deleted member 231381

Unconfirmed Member
pigeon said:
I agree. The conclusion of the argument is that the republic is illegitimate.

Earlier this year I asked whether people loved democracy or whether they loved progressive values and civil rights and believed democracy was the best way to get them.

People said I was being silly.
Click to expand...

I disagree. Some of Trump's voters are white nationalists. Some of Trump's voters are people who voted for Obama, and I really want to stress that, as per Nate Cohn. Your conclusion is wrong because your assumption is wrong. These people aren't voting because of race - they don't care either way. They'll be fine with a racist candidate if he offers them what they want, even if they aren't actively voting for racism. And that difference is really critical, because those voters can be won back, just as Obama won them. But you're giving up. That doesn't help anyone.

If you win them back on economic issues, they'll vote for the civil issues - because they don't care either way. That's how coalitions of demographic work, as long as everyone gets what they want, they'll scratch the other guy's back. But civil issues alone aren't enough to motivate them - and that's all Clinton ran on (and barely even that).
 
S

Syder

Member
IAmAnAgnostic said:
I remember quite a few posts here saying Trump could never possibly win. That the demographics were 100% against him.. So what happened?
Click to expand...
They were strongly against him. Anyone that said he could never possibly win was silly, he had so many R votes guaranteed to start of with.
 
P

Phased

Member
B-Dubs said:
We elected Mr. "grab 'em by the pussy"

That's what I can't get past. I just can't.
Click to expand...

It really is unbelievable. People are going to be talking about this election and speculating on it for decades I think. Unsure if we'll ever really know for sure what the hell happened besides just some good guesses.
 
S

Suikoguy

I whinny my fervor lowly, for his length is not as great as those of the Hylian war stallions
damisa said:
Because Wall Street isn't evil. They are an important part of the economy. I won't vote for a DEM candidate like Bernie that goes too far with the Wall Street hate.
Click to expand...

Bernie inhabits a parallel dimension somewhere between our current one, and the one by Jill Stein. Closer to ours I suspect, especially as the Magic Wifi Crystals put the distance way out there.

But they both had policies that were untenable or impossible.
 
B

Black Mamba

Member
Manmademan said:
He was over Romney in PA, but still below Obama's 2012 total...and nowhere near Obama 08. I want to say Kerry 04 was also higher.

Clinton was below all of those numbers.

Republicans were energized here but not to some stratospheric number. A better candidate in a regular year would have beaten him.
Click to expand...

There's a lot more votes in PA to be counted. Not in terms of flipping the vote but final vote tally.

Hillary outperformed Obama in Philly. And Pittsburgh (Trump right now is under Romney there too).

Her urban numbers turned out fine. The rural parts destroyed her everywhere in this nation. These people voted in unprecedented numbers.

You have to ask why? I don't see why these people came out to vote against Hillary when they didn't vote against Obama.
 
T

The Technomancer

card-carrying scientician
pigeon said:
I agree. The conclusion of the argument is that the republic is illegitimate.

Earlier this year I asked whether people loved democracy or whether they loved progressive values and civil rights and believed democracy was the best way to get them.

People said I was being silly.
Click to expand...
I...I don't want to think about this but I have to
 
B

BreezyLimbo

Banned
I'm still laughing at Trump being elected

my god


I've cried for the past couple horus druk beyond belief

here we are

here we are

hopium was just a drug after all. Clinton you were our firewall. here we are. Republican controlled country. Baron you look tired and belligerent. here we are. those racist fucks were right, republicans won. over half bottle of vodka drank. myg ododnes.

had a chance to elect a women. to give hope to women and minorities. here we are. a man who disrespects both. presidents. women losing hope. susan b anthony? rolling in her grave. here we are.

I'm drunk. I s'm sorry gaf. I had hpoe. so much hope. The white knight is a retard, the yellow brick roadi s in ruins, and snow hite is getting raped by the dwarves. that 's how I feel right now. I'm sorry gaf. america failed us. failed us.
 
benjipwns

benjipwns

Banned
LotusHD said:
Same. I'm not a violent or confrontational person by any means, but every time I look at someone now, I can only wonder if they had voted for him. For those who openly reveal that they do support him, all I can do is avoid them and interact with them as minimally as possible. Well, in the upcoming months anyways. Right now I am seething, and the last thing I need to see is a Trump supporter.
Click to expand...
Would you have felt this way had he lost as expected?
 
M

metalslimer

Member
Well I just came out of an alcohol stupor. I don't feel good. As a gay person, with the Republicans controlling all branches I don't feel worth anything at all.

I want to ignore it all but I know that's how evil becomes pervasive.
 
S

Suikoguy

I whinny my fervor lowly, for his length is not as great as those of the Hylian war stallions
kevin1025 said:
Why even hide it at this point?
Click to expand...

Yep, another total 180 for Republicans.

Russia is ok now!

Even though their actions in recent years have done nothing to warrant that change and they were calling Obama weak for the nuclear arms reduction negotiations.
 
B

B-Dubs

No Scrubs
GhaleonEB said:
Explaining this to my daughters is going to be difficult.
Click to expand...

After everything he's done, after all of the horrible, evil shit he's done, we rewarded him. After all the hate and ignorance, we elected him. I just don't know what country I'm living in right now. I don't envy you having to explain all of this.
 
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