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PoliGAF 2016 |OT16| Unpresidented

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Amidst everything I somehow missed that single payer lost 80-20 in Colorado

Jesus

It's dead. The Dems shouldn't touch it with a 30 foot pole
Nobody commented on the drug pricing measure in California either...
Well people still want to believe that what people really wanted was ✧・゚: *✧・ ゚:*✧・゚: SOCIALISM*✧・ ゚:* and a more liberal candidate. And that they can create an alliance again between wwc that at best don't care about and at worst want to harm poc and other minorities... and poc.
 

kirblar

Member
Well people still want to believe that what people really wanted was ✧・゚: *✧・ ゚:*✧・゚: SOCIALISM*✧・ ゚:* and a more liberal candidate. And that they can create an alliance again between wwc that at best don't care about and at worst want to harm poc and other minorities... and poc.
No matter what the electoral result- that is always how that group will spin it.
 
Hillary supporters with their head up Hillary's ass need to take their Anti-Bernie rhetoric down to 0. In fact you should all be apoligizing profusely and not tweaking they were both bad candidates. Not fucking true. Bernie was willing to pound the pavement and fight. Hillary was willing to sleep in her home every night.
 

Gruco

Banned
If states actually had fair proportions in the electoral college Clinton would have won.

Of course that probably offends someone rural person in Wyoming so I probably shouldn't say this.

Cohn's comment: put the panhandle in AL/GA, and the UP in WI. President Clinton, easily.

there is nothing morally superior about how how these lines happen to have been drawn. This isn't remotely 2000. An electoral/popular divergence of this magnitude is a broken democracy. It cannot be sustained.
 
The biggest problem I had with Bernie Sanders wasn't necessarily his policies. (Although I disagreed with some like his trade policies, and my belief that a Universal Healthcare system like Germany or Switzerland is probably better for this country than single payer.) My biggest problem with Bernie Sanders him being an ideologue, someone with a holier than thou attitude, and allowed his supporters to believe the election was rigged when it wasn't. I want a progressive President, but I want them to be rational and understand that compromise is necessary even within your own party, especially with your own party. I thought Obama did a fantastic job at this. He presented a shift to the left(albeit with moderate policies) and put it in a progressive message and remained open to compromise throughout his presidency, even though other party did not want to work with him.

Say what you will about whether we should be open to compromise with Republicans anymore(we should on issues we agree with,) but people forget, even within one party, there are a variety of different stances, especially in the US where the major parties would essentially be coalitions in a parliamentary multi party system and you need to compromise with people of your own party(ie: Obamacare). That is why I preferred Hillary Clinton over Sanders, to me she represented a continuation of Obama.

That's why I hope and believe Obama will continue to play a major role in the Democratic party in the future. He balanced populism with pragmatism. Unfortunately, Clinton was unable to perform the same balance, she had too much baggage and was not charismatic enough to be a populist.

That is why, while I agree we need to dissect this election and find out what went wrong and what went right (Arizona, Georgia, and Texas, all had tighter margins that 2012), we need to make sure we do not become divided like the GOP has been. Although this election needs much review, I believe the answer is clear. We need to head down the path Obama set. The difficult part is, we need good charismatic leaders and good organization to get them elected.
 

Davilmar

Member
Why?

This nonsense needs to be pushed back against.

It's a fucking congressional seat in New York not some coup for Presidency...

This mentality is dangerous going foward if it is left unchallenged

There are a lot of raw nerves against Hillary Clinton, and I can't help but feel as a New Yorker and a minority that Chelsea more or less is gliding into an easy seat. The suspicions of a continued Clinton dynasty are not outrageous. I have seen Chelsea Clinton campaigning, and I am not impressed with her chops as a potential Congresswoman. A lot of people are going to see her as an example of white privilege giving a child of wealth a congressional seat. That isn't going to resonate with a lot of populist people who want neo-liberal and "third way" Democrats like the Clinton family out.
 

Kid Heart

Member
Oh of course. Hillary was a mistake as a candidate, but I think she's a fantastic person. Her policies were great and I think even with a Republican Congress she would've gotten shit done and really push the progressive movement forward. But in order to do that she needed to get in, and her bad candidacy prevented that.

It's cool, I didn't mean to suggest you thought she was a bad person. I just made that caveat because a lot of people are currently trying to make her out to be the devil and I just want to make sure her actual personality isn't lost in the wave of emotions currently flowing after the defeat.

Meh, let them bitch. Chelsea could parachute into a free seat in New York whenever she wants. I don't think a presidential run will ever be in the cards though.

And, this is the thread I was talking about in particular earlier, because if I entered it, I would not come back out.
 
Hillary supporters with their head up Hillary's ass need to take their Anti-Bernie rhetoric down to 0. In fact you should all be apoligizing profusely and not tweaking they were both bad candidates. Not fucking true. Bernie was willing to pound the pavement and fight. Hillary was willing to sleep in her home every night.
Lmao. Take a hike, bud.
 

mo60

Member
We'll see on turnout, still about 4 million votes left to count :p

Hilary is not getting anywere near FDR's win margin in CA. There are not enough votes left to make it possible to get anywere near 35% . If the third parties did not exist it would have been possible for her to beat trump by like 35% in CA.
 

Jooney

Member
I wonder what is going through Weiner's head right now. He'll never be able to show his face in polite New York society for a long, long time.
 

Wilsongt

Member
Hillary supporters with their head up Hillary's ass need to take their Anti-Bernie rhetoric down to 0. In fact you should all be apoligizing profusely and not tweaking they were both bad candidates. Not fucking true. Bernie was willing to pound the pavement and fight. Hillary was willing to sleep in her home every night.

Dude. Don't be Benji.
 
There are a lot of raw nerves against Hillary Clinton, and I can't help but feel as a New Yorker and a minority that Chelsea more or less is gliding into an easy seat. The suspicions of a continued Clinton dynasty are not outrageous. I have seen Chelsea Clinton campaigning, and I am not impressed with her chops as a potential Congresswoman. A lot of people are going to see her as an example of white privilege giving a child of wealth a congressional seat. That isn't going to resonate with a lot of populist people who want neo-liberal and "third way" Democrats like the Clinton family out.

If one thing this election has taught us on both sides is

People are tired of Clintons and people are tired of Bushs. Yess, Hillary won the popular vote. Thanks to California. Which always goes blue.
 

Totakeke

Member
Hillary supporters with their head up Hillary's ass need to take their Anti-Bernie rhetoric down to 0. In fact you should all be apoligizing profusely and not tweaking they were both bad candidates. Not fucking true. Bernie was willing to pound the pavement and fight. Hillary was willing to sleep in her home every night.

Very convincing argument sir.
 
Hillary supporters with their head up Hillary's ass need to take their Anti-Bernie rhetoric down to 0. In fact you should all be apoligizing profusely and not tweaking they were both bad candidates. Not fucking true. Bernie was willing to pound the pavement and fight. Hillary was willing to sleep in her home every night.

I'm not apologizing for shit.
 
Bernie was willing to pound the pavement and fight.

The guy who wrote off an entire region is willing to pound the pavement and fight.

Okay.

My biggest fear coming out of this election isn't even that the ACA will be gone: it's that people like you, who never did any sort of mea culpa in response to things like the above link but still act like everyone needs to kiss your feet, will turn us into Corbynite Labour because you overcorrected.
 

Grexeno

Member
Hillary supporters with their head up Hillary's ass need to take their Anti-Bernie rhetoric down to 0. In fact you should all be apoligizing profusely and not tweaking they were both bad candidates. Not fucking true. Bernie was willing to pound the pavement and fight. Hillary was willing to sleep in her home every night.
Whatever. Get what you want in 2020. It'll blow up in your face.
 
Hilary is not getting anywere near FDR's win margin in CA. There are not enough votes left to make it possible to get anywere near 35% . If the third parties did not exist it would have been possible for her to beat trump by like 35% in CA.

I was referring to comment about turnout being down, not the result. People keep on saying CA turnout is down, when it should be up when all is said and done.
 

Gruco

Banned
Hillary supporters with their head up Hillary's ass need to take their Anti-Bernie rhetoric down to 0. In fact you should all be apoligizing profusely and not tweaking they were both bad candidates. Not fucking true. Bernie was willing to pound the pavement and fight. Hillary was willing to sleep in her home every night.

You should reply to the specific comments in the thread that you consider unfair. This post is just existential rage.
 
So first, I'll give you my impression of why Bernie would've also been a mistake. If you disagree, fine, this is all hypotheticals, but here's why anyway.

Yes, Bernie would've engaged the millenials, and possibly even brought some of the older rural whites on board with his anti-trade policies. Let's flip WI and MI to Dems with him at the top of the ticket. However, the flip side is that you would lose minorities. Minorities chose Hillary Clinton over Bernie Sanders, and you can't expect them to just fall in line for the general if Sanders got the nomination, just like how Hillary shouldn't have expected the milennials and rural whites that Bernie energized to fall in line. Especially because giving Bernie the nomination would suppress their votes, since they were most of the reason Hillary got 3 Million more votes than Bernie in the primaries. So in this scenario, PA stays red, Florida is even further red, and the Dems almost definitely lose VA. So it's still a losing ticket. Plus, for these older rural whites, socialism is still a poisonous term. That probably would sink him alone, but then you add in his skeletons that didn't really get brought up (Sierra Blanca, his wife's university), the fact that while his tax plan would be a net benefit with free healthcare, it would've raised the middle class's taxes, and that Trump could hit him with the same "he's been in Washington for 30 years, why didn't you fix it yet?", and I don't see how he wins.

As for the bolded, I think you're missing the point. Hillary-GAF, and I think even a lot of the DNC, wants these people gone too. Stick Keith Ellison in the DNC chair (assuming he gives up his seat, we need a full-time chair). We want the people gone that are refusing to self-reflect and realize why this was lost. But that doesn't mean everyone. Harry Reid doesn't need to disappear. Howard Dean shouldn't be instantly opposed, especially given his previous success. Donna Brazile? The Clintons themselves? Sure, throw them out, they're done. But we don't need to get rid of all of the establishment. There are plenty of them that would be a huge benefit going forward, and we shouldn't push them out on principle.



Oh of course. Hillary was a mistake as a candidate, but I think she's a fantastic person. Her policies were great and I think even with a Republican Congress she would've gotten shit done and really push the progressive movement forward. But in order to do that she needed to get in, and her bad candidacy prevented that.

I don't think Bernie would've taken the minority vote for granted. I think he would've worked hard to gain as many of their votes as he could, though I see that you could be right and maybe he'd lose ground there. I think he could bat away the socialist concerns pretty easily though. I mean, we're sitting here thinking we understand the electorate and what they do and don't like and a serial sexual abuser just won the presidency. Apparently people only care about jobs (oversimplification but you get what I'm saying).

I also agree what Reid shouldn't be gone but I think Podesta, the previously mentioned Brazile, and many of the people on her staff who were arrogant enough to play for a blowout when we lost so many reliably blue states by razor thin margins need to go.

I'd also like to second the idea that, while I feel she may be political poison now unfortunately, Hillary is a great person and didn't deserve this shit. I feel angry at her for having a hand in botching this, but I also feel profoundly sorry for her and Obama.
 

The states in red have already approved of this plan, all we need are the states in blue.

kNW1p.png


It's... doable.
 

pigeon

Banned
Hillary supporters with their head up Hillary's ass need to take their Anti-Bernie rhetoric down to 0. In fact you should all be apoligizing profusely and not tweaking they were both bad candidates. Not fucking true. Bernie was willing to pound the pavement and fight. Hillary was willing to sleep in her home every night.

How much did you do in the fight against white nationalism this year?
 
Hillary supporters with their head up Hillary's ass need to take their Anti-Bernie rhetoric down to 0. In fact you should all be apoligizing profusely and not tweaking they were both bad candidates. Not fucking true. Bernie was willing to pound the pavement and fight. Hillary was willing to sleep in her home every night.

The wrath of the Bernie Bros is upon us. I'll be under my covers.
 
And you know what I'm fucking pissed again. It's amazing how the one time a candidate doesn't make their campaign foremost about the white male and everyone loses their shit. White privilege is so real.

Maybe Bernie can get the DNC to strike the southern minorities from the primaries so he actually has a shot next time.
 

mo60

Member
If one thing this election has taught us on both sides is

People are tired of Clintons and people are tired of Bushs. Yess, Hillary won the popular vote. Thanks to California. Which always goes blue.

If she only won CA by like 20% or less instead of by nearly 30% she may have lost the popular vote. Her insane margin in CA is the reason to why she most likely won the popular vote.
 
The states in red have already approved of this plan, all we need are the states in blue.

kNW1p.png


It's... doable.
Especially now that they'll be really hotly contested battlegrounds, I don't think WI, PA, or MI are going to be into that. They're going to want all that sweet, sweet advertising money that comes with being real swing states.

I haven't done a lot of research, but maybe we could get Texas on board for this, if any red state would join? They're huge and would probably get way more spending there during elections if they became raw popular vote based, so it seems like the most likely one we could ply off. Of course, Republicans as a whole have no reason to break a system that benefits them.
 
How much did you do in the fight against white nationalism this year?

He got himself banned from a video game forum numerous times for being an asshole. Meanwhile people like me made calls and pounded the pavement in states like Virginia (where I volunteered), yet he's coming here saying I should apologize. Pathetic
 

Principate

Saint Titanfall
And you know what I'm fucking pissed again. It's amazing how the one time a candidate doesn't make their campaign foremost about the white male and everyone loses their shit. White privilege is so real.

Maybe Bernie can get the DNC to strike the southern minorities from the primaries so he actually has a shot next time.

TBF Clinton didn't win White females either and the white population do still make up the majority of America demographic wise, it's not a remotely strange or illogical position. It's just facts.
 

Sanjuro

Member
TBF Clinton didn't win White females either and the white population do still make up the majority of America demographic wise, it's not a remotely strange or illogical position. It's just facts.

I wasn't sure what the post was referring to exactly. If we are talking about Clinton, she was almost universally disliked from women I know along the entire spectrum. Still most of them probably voted for her in the end.
 

Davilmar

Member
If one thing this election has taught us on both sides is

People are tired of Clintons and people are tired of Bushs. Yess, Hillary won the popular vote. Thanks to California. Which always goes blue.

Americans in general do not like dynasties. Which is what I was getting at with my Chelsea comment. She seems like a nice woman, but individuals like new choices and not the sense of inevitability that a child of a leader running would suggest. Hillary did win the popular vote, but she lost in states that Obama carried. On a class issues, the Democratic Party lost the working class portion of the country. That is going to be a hard battle to gain back their trust. Having the Clinton mold of blending corporate and multinational organizations with Democratic ideals isn't going to cut it anymore. We can't continue to compromise with that philosophy, and we need to excise it.

I'm not apologizing for shit.

Bernie supporters shouldn't be apologizing, and I am not surprised that even in spite of a humiliating loss, many of the Hillary-GAF are still smug. I never personally liked Hillary Clinton, and I had a lot of reservations about her dedication to working class principles. I lurked on this community board, and I saw so much condescension, arrogance, mockery, hostility, and demeaning comments made toward those who didn't get behind Clinton. If we complained about Clinton's connection to Wall Street, we were called naive for ignoring Clinton's legislative accomplishments or not understanding how "the process works." If we complained about the Clinton Foundation, we were ridiculed for giving flames to Trump's argument and making a big deal over nothing significant. Same with both Benghazi and the e-mail debacle, even when legitimate questions about character, judgment and forthrightness should have been asked. If we questioned Clinton on the "deplorable" comment, we were again attacked for giving cover to Trump and his supporters. You couldn't win with these people. She was the anointed Queen, and a lot of people got impulsively banned for questioning Democratic orthodoxy.

Of course people are going to be pissed. Seeing the meltdown of the Hillary-GAF and the quick turnaround and continued criticism of Sanders instead of heartfelt reflection is going to continue the antagonism. You can't insult and spit in the face of people in your own movement for not being warm about an incredible flawed candidate, and then get upset when she lost everything and placed minorities like myself in a precarious position. There is no guarantee that Sanders would have won, but Hillary Rodham Clinton had every conceivable advantage and lost the whole fucking thing. In spite of the experts, the echo chamber on NeoGAF, the pollsters, and pundits. The house has to be cleaned, and these so called people no longer have any authority to lecture or criticize other people. We are in a new political frontier now. We now have to reevaluate everything we thought about working class Americans, minorities, women, and millennials in totality.
 
I have a lot of faith for 2020.

1. Trump won three states that he NEEDED to win by barely six digits.
2. Trump's turnout is not going to get any better - he got 94% of the Republican vote for heaven's sake (I think it was 94% anyway).
3. Assuming that the DNC doesn't do the stupidest shit and nominate someone worse than Clinton, liberal turnout is not dropping. In the same way that conservative voters are going to be upset at Trump for not acting on campaign promises, liberal opposition will be upset when he does. It's a lot easier to get people to get out and vote when they've just lost.
4. Flipping PA, WI, and MI was pretty much "it" as far as Trump flipping traditionally blue states. It's highly unlikely to me that New Hampshire, Maine's 1st, Virginia, Colorado, New Mexico, or Minnesota are at-risk anytime soon.
5. As sucky as it is, we won't be campaigning to win Georgia, Texas, or Arizona anytime soon. We are going to campaign more in the rust belt, remind Michiganders of what lax regulations did to them, and who did it to them.

Unless Trump is an amazing President, his second term will be a harder-fought battle.
 

Crocodile

Member
That makes no sense to me. All you have to do is stop posting. Or simply put into a post that you are taking a break. The self censoring type deal is not cool.

Oh I thought you just meant people who took a break (or asked for a temp ban) rather than nuked their account
 

Sibylus

Banned
No.

ALSO next time there is an election we all need to stick through it. Still disturbed by posters who were so prominent here in this thread before the results then are gone right after.

That makes no sense to me. All you have to do is stop posting. Or simply put into a post that you are taking a break. The self censoring type deal is not cool.

People are afraid for the lives of themselves and their families, dude. Empathy.
 
People are allowed to take time off to mourn and recover

I miss Adam though :(
Yeah. Really wonder how his youngest is holding up. Adam talked about how he was terrified by Trump and now he won so I could only imagine how that's affecting him. Hope the older brother isn't bullying or teasing him too much over that either since I also remember him saying that he did that at times. Just wish them all well.
 
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