I believe it failed much like Vermont's failed.
It cannot be done on the state level. It must be all encompassing, or else it blows up.
It's federal or failure.
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PoliGAF 2016 |OT16| Unpresidented
- Thread starter ItWasMeantToBe19
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I believe it failed much like Vermont's failed.
It cannot be done on the state level. It must be all encompassing, or else it blows up.
It's federal or failure.
I'd love to believe that Trump is so malleable that Obama could play puppet master behind the scenes but we all know that's not happening
This is my take. I want to work with the Sanders wing but BURN IT ALL DOWN is a recipe for disaster and they need to show up to vote even if they don't get 100% of what they want - no excuses. I think we've identified some clear and workable paths for improvement - I assume/hope the DNC will figure this out too.
CoffeeJanitor
Member
popular vote sure
but check the state governments
Also, not getting my hopes up, , but if Trump actually takes Obama's council that would be really crazy
metalslimer
Member
If by liberal tea party you mean aggressive protests and a faction that doesnt give up fighting Trump I'm for that.
If you mean purity tests that killed the moderates in the GOP I'm done.
A liberal version of the tea party would be restricted to even fewer states than we are now. The tea party worked because the majority of states in this country are conservative.
If you mean purity tests that killed the moderates in the GOP I'm done.
A liberal version of the tea party would be restricted to even fewer states than we are now. The tea party worked because the majority of states in this country are conservative.
I don't know what you want me to check, exit polls? Show details and people can discuss.
RastaMentality
Banned
They're probably gonna fix Obamacare and then take all of the praise for it if it's successful.
ItWasMeantToBe19
Banned
Why are moderates in the OT who support racists so PC and so concerned about people's feelings?!?
I thought they hated PC and feelings?
Or that was only when it comes to minorities?
I thought they hated PC and feelings?
Or that was only when it comes to minorities?
Bonen no Max'd
Banned
I'm not sure this is true, at least in terms of potential for success. I'm pretty sure single payer in Canada started at a provincial level and then worked its way into being a federal system.
This, of course, assumes a state will pass it.
If they just fix it they can take credit all day.
That's not what's happening. Look, you want to hear it?
Hillary was a flawed candidate. She was a mistake.
I'll repeat that. Hillary was a mistake.
Here, we are alright admitting that. The problem is, Bernie supporters are refusing to believe that Bernie would've also been a mistake. They are refusing to look at the numbers of what actually happened, and consider the changes we can make. Instead, they are talking about blowing everything up and hijacking the party, instead of joining the party and coming to compromises with the existing apparatus. Yes, a lot of the old guard of the DNC needs to step aside. But that doesn't mean we have to start at square one. Hillary Clinton won the popular vote, it just wasn't distributed in the right places. This is the issue people here are having with Bernie supporters. If they would work with the DNC to come together, then we would have a unified coalition that would dominate. But they all seem set on blowing everything up and sticking Bernie or Bernie-lite into the 2020 nomination and assume it'll work. That's the issue
"Calling someone a racist (who deserves the label) is more offensive than racism" has been a sthcik of many pockets of OT for a while and is even worse elsewhere online
RastaMentality
Banned
it'd probably make them win in 2020 while allowing them to go down in history. we lose out on that again.
Suikoguy
I whinny my fervor lowly, for his length is not as great as those of the Hylian war stallions
In a functioning system, Dems could negoiate a couple fixes they like in exchange for something that Republicans like, like removing the state boundaries for insurance sales.
That would lead to increased leverage for insurance companies to bring down pricing, and as long as the Obamacare provision of maximum profit stays in place, and enough regulation is placed at the federal level, i'd be ok with that.
if they can make something function, sure. Take the praise all yo uwant.
CoffeeJanitor
Member
Yeah, the former.
As much as I have loved Obama's leadership, playing it nice really doesn't work in politics. We need that wing and we need it now.
ItWasMeantToBe19
Banned
"Yes, I voted for the guy who says that Syrian children are coming to rape our white women and blow up buildings, but-"
Come on, dudes.
whyamihere
Banned
Yup. We need a working coalition to win the White House that includes all part of the Democratic Party. I'm going to take a mea culpa on Hillary (though I didn't realize her campaign would fuck up this badly), but we also need me, you, and everyone else going forward. Or else we have 8 years of this nightmare.
StopMakingSense
Member
Irrespective of anything, these margins for Hillary in CA are legit NUTS.
edit: referring mostly to county by county results
edit: referring mostly to county by county results
War Peaceman
You're a big guy.
Exactly. I hope they do fix it. (They won't)
whyamihere
Banned
They're insane. Ugh.
Suikoguy
I whinny my fervor lowly, for his length is not as great as those of the Hylian war stallions
They do spell trouble though, with the sheer size of the California economy.
StopMakingSense
Member
How do you mean?
Suikoguy
I whinny my fervor lowly, for his length is not as great as those of the Hylian war stallions
A federal government that divided from the policies of a state could cause serious problems.
Edit: Not saying it's to a point where we need to raise a flag or something, but it's a possible problem if the Republican party continues down the anti-minority path and wins.
Joe Shlabotnik
Banned
At this point I think the key to getting Trump to agree to something is to convince him it is the option with the least amount of work involved.
Repeal and replace Obamacare? Holy shit, do you know how much WORK you'll have to do?
RastaMentality
Banned
Isn't it similar to 2012 and 08? i'm not understanding.
ryutaro's mama
Member
Hylianhero777
Member
No way in a million years am I arguing to leave minorities behind. In fact we have to do even more to get their voices heard. I'm arguing for an even more inclusive coalition that includes rust belt workers and millennials. If you believe Clinton didn't make mistakes after not even fucking trying to reach out to those two groups and losing states that haven't gone red in a generation I don't know what to tell you.
I agree with this, but I think this forum shutting out dissenting thought and ridiculing people on their side AGAIN is a terrible idea.
We can't know either way if Bernie would've been a mistake for sure. I think he would've helped millennial turnout a lot and he was clearly more popular in the rust belt than Hillary, who only lost those areas by tens of thousands of votes (meaning a more popular dem candidate there may have pushed him over). I don't think we should burn everything down but I definitely don't think we should be keeping all of the people with fingers in their ears who refuse to admit that they could've done better around.
excelsiorlef
Member
Lol Sins of the mother on full display apparently Chelsea Clinton maybe running for congress some day is now the height of arrogance and must be opposed with full force.
whyamihere
Banned
It's bigger than 12 and 08.
metalslimer
Member
And another sign that people want purity over anything. I might not a break from politics with the way it's looking like things will go.
We lost.
Who's saying that we couldn't have done better? Of course we could have done better. We lost. Just because there is disagreement on how to do better doesn't mean everyone thinks we were destined to lose this election. We shouldn't have lost this election and we couldn't afford to lose it.
Who's saying that we couldn't have done better? Of course we could have done better. We lost. Just because there is disagreement on how to do better doesn't mean everyone thinks we were destined to lose this election. We shouldn't have lost this election and we couldn't afford to lose it.
StopMakingSense
Member
I meant more county by county. Flipping Fresno, Orange and Riverside counties is pretty nuts. Winning San Diego county by 17 points? Insane (was +6 Obama in 2012)
shinra-bansho
Member
Did he? He was pandering to that older generation. Are the hope change 2008 thirty somethings vehemently anti-trade or is it the college campus set standing around with tape over their mouths or yelling during Obama's speeches.
I'll echo this as well. (Though with the caveat that while Hillary was a bad candidate I still do not believe she was a bad person.)
If OT seriously doesn't think we're doing any introspection they have the completely wrong idea. The reason I don't really feel like going into OT to explain this atm is because with everyone so heated over there I'd get banned saying things I'd quickly regret.
Aaron Strife
Banned
Meh, let them bitch. Chelsea could parachute into a free seat in New York whenever she wants. I don't think a presidential run will ever be in the cards though.
Yeah. They are legit. Trump's rhetoric was thorughly rejected in California. Trump is doing way worse then pretty much every republican presidential candidate since 1952 in California which is crazy.
Bonen no Max'd
Banned
Kander's twitter account is now basically just his personal account, it's kind of funny to see. Maybe I'm actually falling for his paid intern, but he seems pretty personable.
Edit: Random bench thought: what about Kennedy? I know dynasties are a thing people mostly don't like but people seem to still love the Kennedys and he seems young and smart.
Edit: Random bench thought: what about Kennedy? I know dynasties are a thing people mostly don't like but people seem to still love the Kennedys and he seems young and smart.
BreezyLimbo
Banned
California should really secede from the US.
So first, I'll give you my impression of why Bernie would've also been a mistake. If you disagree, fine, this is all hypotheticals, but here's why anyway.
Yes, Bernie would've engaged the millenials, and possibly even brought some of the older rural whites on board with his anti-trade policies. Let's flip WI and MI to Dems with him at the top of the ticket. However, the flip side is that you would lose minorities. Minorities chose Hillary Clinton over Bernie Sanders, and you can't expect them to just fall in line for the general if Sanders got the nomination, just like how Hillary shouldn't have expected the milennials and rural whites that Bernie energized to fall in line. Especially because giving Bernie the nomination would suppress their votes, since they were most of the reason Hillary got 3 Million more votes than Bernie in the primaries. So in this scenario, PA stays red, Florida is even further red, and the Dems almost definitely lose VA. So it's still a losing ticket. Plus, for these older rural whites, socialism is still a poisonous term. That probably would sink him alone, but then you add in his skeletons that didn't really get brought up (Sierra Blanca, his wife's university), the fact that while his tax plan would be a net benefit with free healthcare, it would've raised the middle class's taxes, and that Trump could hit him with the same "he's been in Washington for 30 years, why didn't you fix it yet?", and I don't see how he wins.
As for the bolded, I think you're missing the point. Hillary-GAF, and I think even a lot of the DNC, wants these people gone too. Stick Keith Ellison in the DNC chair (assuming he gives up his seat, we need a full-time chair). We want the people gone that are refusing to self-reflect and realize why this was lost. But that doesn't mean everyone. Harry Reid doesn't need to disappear. Howard Dean shouldn't be instantly opposed, especially given his previous success. Donna Brazile? The Clintons themselves? Sure, throw them out, they're done. But we don't need to get rid of all of the establishment. There are plenty of them that would be a huge benefit going forward, and we shouldn't push them out on principle.
Oh of course. Hillary was a mistake as a candidate, but I think she's a fantastic person. Her policies were great and I think even with a Republican Congress she would've gotten shit done and really push the progressive movement forward. But in order to do that she needed to get in, and her bad candidacy prevented that.
No democrat has done this well in California since 1936 which is insane. If turnout was higher she could have beaten FDR's margin in CA probably.
excelsiorlef
Member
Why?
This nonsense needs to be pushed back against.
It's a fucking congressional seat in New York not some coup for Presidency...
This mentality is dangerous going foward if it is left unchallenged
StopMakingSense
Member
I don't want to leave any Democrats behind, but I think the people who sat on their hands and didn't work to elect Hillary who now want to dictate to those of us who fought for her how to manage things next time are the first ones I'd want to drop off the edge of the boat.
whyamihere
Banned
LOCK HER U-- oh.
metalslimer
Member
If states actually had fair proportions in the electoral college Clinton would have won.
Of course that probably offends someone rural person in Wyoming so I probably shouldn't say this.
Of course that probably offends someone rural person in Wyoming so I probably shouldn't say this.
The worst part of racism is how some people unfairly identify it as something that exists.
This is a depressingly widespread viewpoint.
California legit spoiling for a fight. Underappreciated part of this election was how in exchange for his eastern rural turbocharge, Trump BLED support in the west in particular, but also in a lot of traditionally conservative areas like the Atlanta suburbs.
It was the most divisive course of action possible, and those on the other side of the divide are not going to take it quietly.
She beat him in Ohio and PA by like 13 points each.
ItWasMeantToBe19
Banned
I think with ballot referendums to get rid of the electoral college in like 8 states passed, we could get rid of it, actually.
A 2018 wave of Dem anger would be very helpful in getting those referendums to pass also...
A 2018 wave of Dem anger would be very helpful in getting those referendums to pass also...
metalslimer
Member
That was because of those pesky minorities though.
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