lastflowers
Banned
Clinton definitely is a change maker. She's enabled Cheetoh King to get the white house!
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PoliGAF 2016 |OT16| Unpresidented
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Clinton definitely is a change maker. She's enabled Cheetoh King to get the white house!
Isaac Otherworld
Member
He ran as a message candidate and didn't realize he had a chance win until late December 2015. The campaign wasn't even fully staffed until the primaries were about to happen. If Bernie had started prepping for a run a year or two earlier, I think he probably would have been able to win. The campaign was completely caught off guard by the level of support it had received.
Bonen no Max'd
Banned
My avatar might incline people to think otherwise but he's probably my favorite president.
He was a wartime VP. Not a fresh elect.
No need to be so defensive. It's irrefutable that Clinton was not an exciting enough candidate for a lot of Americans. But consider this: What do you think that says about the guy who lost to her?
Doc Holliday
SPOILER: Columbus finds America
Now we're going after Krugman, one of the most liberal economists out there?
Why? What did he do? Spit too much truth again?
Suikoguy
I whinny my fervor lowly, for his length is not as great as those of the Hylian war stallions
Well yeah, for Bernie Bros the fault has to mostly be on Clinton, can't be any of the other litany of factors like.
1.) FBI playing politics
2.) Russia hacking Dems and the media going along with it.
3.) The media caring about everything but policy
4.) Increased voter disenfranchisement orchestrated by Republicans.
5.) Sexism from being the first Women president.
With the benefit of hindsight, there are certainly things that could have been done differently that may have helped. But combining Xenophobia, Racism with the impossible promise to bring jobs back from overseas convinced White people to show up and vote even with the huge list of faults the Orange Fuckwad has.
Doc Holliday
SPOILER: Columbus finds America
One good thing is that if the dems can find a decent presidential candidate in 4 years the republicans trying to govern from the far right and not from the center may haunt the party in four years like what kinda happened to steven harper recently even though steven harper and his party prooposed and passed stuff people that pepople did not vote for in the 2011 election that ended up hurting them signficantly in the next election, but they were not necessarily governing from the far right.
Brawly Likes to Brawl
Member
I really don't want to keep harping on Sanders supporters but the revisionism and the refusal to listen to what minorities thought of his campaign is incredibly annoying.
We thought Bush was our Harper. Turns out....nooope.
metalslimer
Member
Bush was our Harper...you guys just haven't found your Trump yet =)
Can we not go back to this shit? It's not all or nothing. Clinton, as a candidate, had some pretty major weaknesses. The election, as it played out, had a lot of things relatively out of her control that contributed to her loss.
Trump and the current form of the republican party will probably end up being 10 times worse then harper. My main point is like harper the republicans and trump will probably think they have a mandate and start making policies decisions in general that the majority of people in the US don't like.
And people are mad at him why? For telling the truth? He's fucking 100% on that shit. The media didn't cover policy at all this election. It was all e-mails and Trump.
Suikoguy
I whinny my fervor lowly, for his length is not as great as those of the Hylian war stallions
Don't visit OT than. I'm more venting in here as only a few posters in here think that. But in the OT there are many posters who are squarely putting the blame on Clinton, and countless people all over social media also doing the same. All the while, having no evidence other than some ancient polls of Sanders winning before being under full scrutiny to back themselves up. All while ignoring the evidence that even further left policy like Single Payer is a losing proposition.
Isaac Otherworld
Member
The media definitely failed us. It's a bad scene. Everybody's fault. But the warning signs that Clinton would in danger against a Trump candidacy were there at least as soon as the primaries started. Maybe earlier.
Are we going to pretend like Clinton didn't contribute to that narrative by pushing "he's not qualified" as the main message? She helped make it about everything not policy. It's important that we admit her failure to get things across is also on her. I personally never saw a single commercial pushing her policies in my state, only attacks on Trump. That only gets you so far.
We thought it was bad back then but lol he's gonna make Bush look like a democratic intellectual scholar.
Doc Holliday
SPOILER: Columbus finds America
I get it, everyone is angry and blaming everyone else.
Bernie supporters are angry that Bernie didn't win the primary and they he would beaten Trump. They blame the DNc,
Hillary fans angry that they feel she was railroaded.
Suikoguy
I whinny my fervor lowly, for his length is not as great as those of the Hylian war stallions
You were not looking, my mom has the evening news on every night, and the ads were 50% negative 50% positive here in FL.
What warning signs? Clinton beat Sanders in PA and OH.
The times she tried giving policy speeches everyone covered an empty Trump podium instead, which is what actually happened and not hyperbole. The media just didn't cover it no matter what they did.
ItWasMeantToBe19
Banned
He's spilling some hot ass tea.
I live in Arizona, a state that Clinton thought she could flip. She heavily ran the kids are watching/vets are watching/women are watching commercials, but nothing else. If there were great commercials out there talking about how she's going to help the average American, I didn't see them.
She did not run a flawless campaign. On the balance of things, I'd say she ran a pretty poor one. We have to admit this before moving forward. The loss cannot simply be explained by externalities.
Suikoguy
I whinny my fervor lowly, for his length is not as great as those of the Hylian war stallions
And Trump ran a great campaign?
Which was the bigger issue, external factors or the campaign?
But Melkr_ said Krugman is a hack!
Ziltoidia 9
Member
All 5 of those were issues in the primary that we knew would come around during the GE.
Same deal here in PA. The same old negative ads all the way until the end.
Suikoguy
I whinny my fervor lowly, for his length is not as great as those of the Hylian war stallions
TumblingHippo
Member
I remember in high school, my history teacher romanticized the electoral college to me as an entity it could, in times of crisis, prevent the country from picking someone totally unqualified for the job.
I mean it's nice people are hoping that'd be the case but I'm pretty ready for that piece of consolation from my teacher to finally be put to rest.
I mean it's nice people are hoping that'd be the case but I'm pretty ready for that piece of consolation from my teacher to finally be put to rest.
Most of that stuff is external or self inflicted. James Comey was appointed by Obama. The unprecedented hacking by Russia included sending John Podesta a fake email and the IT team not making it clear he shouldn't click on it. The media is awful but we already knew that. What are you going to do about the media, force them to cover the right stories? What use is it to blame Russia? We going to bomb them to make it stop?
Blaming everybody else is great but doesn't achieve much.
Suikoguy
I whinny my fervor lowly, for his length is not as great as those of the Hylian war stallions
Wow, great effort just explaining away real issues there.
Also, just forgot about the DNC server huh?
Ether_Snake
å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®
The more I think about it, the more I think this is going to destroy the Republicans in the mid terms. They will either submit to all Trump asks, or he'll go to war against them. He CAN'T resist firing back at anyone who criticizes him, let alone doesn't agree with him or attacks his proposals. And we know the Republicans, they probably think they are in a position of power and will be able to force Trump to do whatever they want, they'll end up provoking him.
I just can't see any scenario where Trump doesn't start attacking them like he did in the primaries and after, and he'll do that with popular support. That can only translate into votes for Democrats, unless Trump starts a third party while he's president, and in that case the Republicans still lose. Plus, with the loss the Dems suffered, they don't represent power in Washington now, the Republicans do, so THEY have become the real representation of "the establishment", now that Hillary is gone.
I just can't see any scenario where Trump doesn't start attacking them like he did in the primaries and after, and he'll do that with popular support. That can only translate into votes for Democrats, unless Trump starts a third party while he's president, and in that case the Republicans still lose. Plus, with the loss the Dems suffered, they don't represent power in Washington now, the Republicans do, so THEY have become the real representation of "the establishment", now that Hillary is gone.
Ziltoidia 9
Member
We knew that the Russians (At the time just someone) had hacked DNC and was going to release stuff.
The FBI thing had been going on since last fall, with the so called 'drip' release of emails.
The media kept showing an empty trump podium and talk about what trump said, no policy.
What do you mean explaining away? Is anybody supposed to feel better that Hillary lost because Russia was hacking us? What's the lesson to learn from that?
Suikoguy
I whinny my fervor lowly, for his length is not as great as those of the Hylian war stallions
1.) http://www.nytimes.com/2016/10/08/us/politics/us-formally-accuses-russia-of-stealing-dnc-emails.html
OCTOBER 7th. Super Tuesday was May 1st. Russia hacking the DNC was not known by ANYONE at that point, What the fuck dude?
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-m...at-we-know-about-russias-role-dnc-email-leak/
July 22nd.
2.) Comey letter was the week before the election. I don't need to source that one for your inability to understand time do I?
3.) Yep, exactly. The media helped create this situation.
You are dead set on explaining away every external situation as the fault of the Dems, when that is not the case.
Isaac Otherworld
Member
Clinton had consistently poor approval ratings all throughout the primary. She's the most disliked candidate outside of Trump himself generally hovering around 35%. In head to head match ups she usually statistically tied against Trump all throughout the primary, which is ultimately how things broke down. She had an FBI investigation being headed by a Republican who hated her and was looking to sabotage her anyway possible. She was a Washington insider in an election where it's clear the electorate was looking for change in anyway they could get it.
In particular, it is absolutely INSANE that the DNC let Clinton run with an active FBI investigation. Had it been any other candidate the DNC would have been constantly pressuring the candidate to get out of the race immediately.
balladofwindfishes
Member
Trump knew which states to attack to win and what to say in those states. He knew how to capitalize on the attention the media was giving him. He knew what to say to rile up his base when Hillary's scandals hit. And he was able to effectively work around potentially campaign ending scandals.
Take it out of context of Trump and what he stands for, and that's a very successful campaign. He's president elect, after all.
Bonen no Max'd
Banned
I asked this before but I don't think anyone responded.
Are there any countries with better media and what can we do to try and emulate that, especially without breaking the first amendment?
Edit: Do on like, an institutional level. I realize on an individual level this boils down to "support not shitty media".
Are there any countries with better media and what can we do to try and emulate that, especially without breaking the first amendment?
Edit: Do on like, an institutional level. I realize on an individual level this boils down to "support not shitty media".
Do we need a small course correction or a big course correction? Do we abandon the Obama coalition/blueprint or merely tweak it? Those are the questions and lessons from analyzing the election results.
Suikoguy
I whinny my fervor lowly, for his length is not as great as those of the Hylian war stallions
So, is it the job of the DNC to annoint and approve candidates or not?
You can't have it both ways.
People were fucking pissed out of their minds people preferred personally Clinton over Sanders, and now you want them to take actual actions to influence the race.
Thank you.
Like when she was talking about ways to strengthen Social Security during the debate. No one cared because Trump called her a nasty woman. That became the story. Oh but she didn't talk about policy enough.
Ziltoidia 9
Member
I don't know why you have to be condescending towards me, as I will not be towards you. My point was that we knew that the DNC had been hacked and were getting hints that they had found things showing the DNC had leanings towards Clinton. I did though edit that we knew "someone" had hacked them at the time, just at that time we didn't know it was the Russians. I did the edit before your post at me.
I know when the Comey letter happened, what I was saying is, we knew the email situation was going to be used against her regardless.
metalslimer
Member
So now you want them to rig it?
And seriously the president is going on trial for fraud next month so...
A) Did anyone say the bolded? It's possible that she made mistakes AND had to deal with a lot of outside fuckery. Talking about the later and making sure it isn't forgotten isn't an effort to absolve the former.
B) I live in Ohio and I saw positive ads AND negative ads so *shrug* anecdote vs. anecdote I guess.
Isaac Otherworld
Member
If Bernie Sanders was under an active criminal investigation by the FBI, he shouldn't have been running for president and should have bowed out of the race. And the DNC should have pressured him to do so as much as it's in their power. No one can win a race with the FBI as their running mate. Case and point: this election.
Many parties were thinking only of themselves while perpetuating all that bullshit. All of them thought that surely human decency would prevail, that no way Trump would be elected, and it's totally okay to save their own hides or profit from the whole Trump phenomenon. The media for chasing after clicks and ratings while perpetuating false equivalence, the establishment republicans saving their own hides realizing that their base has gone rabid, and also James Comey for believing that he himself or his own agency should save their own skins and submitting to the rabid republican pressure.
After all, all the polls were showing Hillary was winning. I don't believe any of them meant to put Trump in power, but here we are, because everyone is only looking out for themselves.
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