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PoliGAF 2016 |OT2| we love the poorly educated

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N

NeoXChaos

Member
Outdoor Miner said:
Came into this primary season solidly in Bernie's camp, going so far as donating a little cash (Obama is only other politician I've given money to).

I am now voting for Hillary (FL) because I think she is more qualified and would simply be a better president. Bernie can continue to do good work in the Senate along with Warren.

Bernie promises lots of awesome things I've always wanted for this country, but he doesn't seem capable of paying for any of it, even with his insane tax plan.

Another thing I haven't liked is his increasingly negative tone towards not only Clinton, but the Democratic party as whole. He is creating a pretty toxic environment among his followers. I hope he can heal it up for the general, we'll need every vote we can get.
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your not the only one. Most of poliGaf was going to vote for bernie and have soured on him as his campaign and advisers have gone on. Only one has gone through with it.
Aaron
 
M

Macho Madness

Member
I'm just glad that I apparently fit in somewhere. Even if it is $hillGAF.

Which, I will admit. I plan to vote for Hillary in the primary if it comes to it. Bernie lost my vote a long time ago because I think he wouldn't be a good general election candidate and I think he'd be a very ineffective president.
 
O

Overlee

Member
brainchild said:
But, of course, $hillGAF, is going to spin this dubious line of attack as a plus for Clinton. OF COURSE they will.
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Democrats fall in love and in line.....

We have the knowledge of the interwebs at our fingertips and we continually allow these egotistical maniacs to control the narratives of our lives. It's gross.
 
P

PBY

Banned
Cerium said:
つ ◕_◕ ༽つ Everyone give Trump your energy. He needs a win in Michigan to set the stage for Ohio.
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Called up my hardcore repub parents last night

They're voting Trump (FL). Theyre cuban and highly educated fyi.
 
E

Ekai

Member
Outdoor Miner said:
Came into this primary season solidly in Bernie's camp, going so far as donating a little cash (Obama is only other politician I've given money to).

I am now voting for Hillary (FL) because I think she is more qualified and would simply be a better president. Bernie can continue to do good work in the Senate along with Warren.

Bernie promises lots of awesome things I've always wanted for this country, but he doesn't seem capable of paying for any of it, even with his insane tax plan.

Another thing I haven't liked is his increasingly negative tone towards not only Clinton, but the Democratic party as whole. He is creating a pretty toxic environment among his followers. I hope he can heal it up for the general, we'll need every vote we can get.
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Here's the thing: His tax plan isn't insane. That Vox topic on his tax plan grossly and purposefully misrepresents what the actual plan is. But we've just seen people eat it up anyway.
 
B

brainchild

Banned
adam387 said:
Come on, mate, with that last line.

It's just like how the voters totally understood John Kerry being for the war before he was against it. Americans have never been good at understanding why people strategically vote for specific things. It's a nuanced position that you can't make in a 30 second ad or debate response. Literally, minutes before, Bernie admitted to voting for bills he didn't like because there were good things in them. Unless it has anything whatsoever to do with Wall Street.

My BIL was a GM worker until they closed down in Ohio. He, somehow, heard about this and decided to vote for Hillary in the primary since he's a registered Democrat. He wasn't going to vote before. Anecdotes are anecdotal, but if we see Bernie's campaign pushing back hard against this we know it was a good (politically) attack.

I do not believe it will come back to hurt her. His finger wagging, "Let me finish" stuff also came across terrible last night. Not just my opinion either on that one.
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It isn't nuanced to call someone a liar. If you want to talk about how the general populace doesn't get nuance, then why assume that they won't believe that she's a liar just because she's 'technically' correct?

If Bernie demonstrates that Hillary is a liar by proving that he supported the auto bailout, people aren't just going to dismiss Hillary's accusations based on a technicality.

The only way this works in Hillary's favor is if Bernie's campaign doesn't attack back. But if I know anything about his campaign, that's exactly what they'll do.

And let's see how much nuance the Michiganders will understand when they're being told that the Clintons are partially responsible for what's happening in Flint right now ;)
 
P

pigeon

Banned
brainchild said:
Then she can argue the point of indirect obstructionism. But if she is going to continue to claim that Bernie opposed to bailout, she is going to be painted as a liar and untrustworthy. Furthermore, the technicality only serves to underscore Bernie's point about her ties to Wallstreet. This won't end well.

But, of course, $hillGAF, is going to spin this dubious line of attack as a plus for Clinton. OF COURSE they will.
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Well, wait a second. Hillary said that if everybody voted with Bernie she believes the auto industry would have collapsed.

If Bernie voted against releasing funds for the auto bailout that seems straightforwardly true. You can't vote for something and then vote against it and then say only the first vote counted.

What am I missing?
 
U

User 463088

Banned
Macho Madness said:
http://www.rudermanfoundation.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/BERNIE-STATEMENT.pdf
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My mom, a former special education teacher, went LIVID at this. I mean absolutely livid. Our neighbor, who my mom is taking to vote on the 15th, was an undecided voter. Her daughter just took her own life a few weeks ago, and when we saw her outside today she specifically mentioned this (and the auto bail out as a retired GM worker) as reasons she's now 100% in on Hillary.
 
P

PBY

Banned
adam387 said:
My mom, a former special education teacher, went LIVID at this. I mean absolutely livid. Our neighbor, who my mom is taking to vote on the 15th, was an undecided voter. Her daughter just took her own life a few weeks ago, and when we saw her outside today she specifically mentioned this (and the auto bail out as a retired GM worker) as reasons she's now 100% in on Hillary.
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To be fair - lets be fair - Hillary did giggle.
 
N

NeoXChaos

Member
BoboBrazil said:
It's funny because black groups from Vermont have said he rarely if ever reached out to them, and the mayor of Flint basically came out and said he never made contact with her, while Hillary was in constant contact trying to find out how to help.
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she will say and do anything to get elected.
 
U

User 463088

Banned
PBY said:
To be fair - lets be fair - Hillary did giggle.
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She did, and my mom bitched about that too. My mom was also more pissed about Bernie's "I'll fix K-12 by free college thing" on the whole, though.

What's so interesting to me is watching this with her. She's NEVER been engaged like this. When Bernie was shaking his finger the first thing she said was "Reminds me of the first principal I ever worked for. He shook his finger at us and called us "girls". Women of a certain age remember shit like that. And with the "Let me finish"thing, I thought she was going to throw her (mostly) empty glass of wine at the TeeVee.
 
P

PBY

Banned
adam387 said:
She did, and my mom bitched about that too. My mom was also more pissed about Bernie's "I'll fix K-12 by free college thing" on the whole, though.

What's so interesting to me is watching this with her. She's NEVER been engaged like this. When Bernie was shaking his finger the first thing she said was "Reminds me of the first principal I ever worked for. He shook his finger at us and called us "girls". Women of a certain age remember shit like that. And with the "Let me finish"thing, I thought she was going to throw her (mostly) empty glass of wine at the TeeVee.
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His optics were awful last night (based on the 20ish mins I watched).
 
N

NeoXChaos

Member
adam387 said:
She did, and my mom bitched about that too. My mom was also more pissed about Bernie's "I'll fix K-12 by free college thing" on the whole, though.

What's so interesting to me is watching this with her. She's NEVER been engaged like this. When Bernie was shaking his finger the first thing she said was "Reminds me of the first principal I ever worked for. He shook his finger at us and called us "girls". Women of a certain age remember shit like that. And with the "Let me finish"thing, I thought she was going to throw her (mostly) empty glass of wine at the TeeVee.
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your mom sounds like you.
 
C

CCS

Banned
Incognito said:
http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/432442/ted-cruz-senate-endorsements
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large.gif


adam387 said:
She did, and my mom bitched about that too. My mom was also more pissed about Bernie's "I'll fix K-12 by free college thing" on the whole, though.

What's so interesting to me is watching this with her. She's NEVER been engaged like this. When Bernie was shaking his finger the first thing she said was "Reminds me of the first principal I ever worked for. He shook his finger at us and called us "girls". Women of a certain age remember shit like that. And with the "Let me finish"thing, I thought she was going to throw her (mostly) empty glass of wine at the TeeVee.
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I'm leaving you for your mum. I'm sorry :p
 
N

noshten

Member
Hillary smearing Sanders on his votes against Wall St bailout - silence, but yes Bernie is the one making the atmosphere toxic.


Clinton: Sanders Against Auto Bailout

Clinton accused Sanders of being “against the auto bailout” in 2009. That’s a stretch.

Clinton: He was against the auto bailout. In January of 2009, President-elect Obama asked everybody in the Congress to vote for the bailout.

… I voted to save the auto industry. He voted against the money that ended up saving the auto industry. I think that is a pretty big difference.
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In fact, Sanders voiced support for a $15 billion package of aid to the auto industry after it passed the House Dec. 10, 2008, in the final days of the Bush administration. The measure was supported by President-elect Obama and an overwhelming majority of House Democrats, but died in the Senate when it failed to reach the floor for a vote.
After the Senate failed to act, President Bush decided to help automakers by tapping the Wall Street bailout package that Sanders had opposed and then Sen. Clinton had supported on Oct. 1, 2008. Specifically, Bush agreed to provide $13.4 billion to GM and Chrysler in Troubled Assets Relief Program funds, as explained in a January 2009 report by the Congressional Research Service.
Clinton referred to a bill that came up in January 2009, but that measure was mostly about bailing out failing financial institutions and reducing home foreclosures, not about saving the auto industry, as Clinton claimed.
The Senate vote on Jan. 15, 2009, was on a measure that would have blocked the Treasury Department from gaining access to the second half of a $700 billion Wall Street bailout package. President-elect Obama urged Senate Democrats to allow the release of the second $350 billion — which included an additional $4 billion already promised to automakers by Bush. But Obama made no mention at the time of using TARP to provide any more money for the automakers.
In a letter to congressional leaders, Obama’s chief economic adviser, Lawrence H. Summers, promised that Obama would devote $50 billion to $100 billion of the $350 billion to “a sweeping effort to address the foreclosure crisis.”
The only mention of possible aid to automakers came almost as an afterthought, in the second to last paragraph. Summers wrote: “Firms in the auto industry … will only receive additional assistance in the context of a comprehensive restructuring designed to achieve long-term viability.”
It’s true as Clinton said that she voted to release the money, and Sanders voted to block it. And ultimately, the Obama administration disbursed nearly $80 billion to General Motors, Chrysler Corp. and others in the auto industry (all but $9.3 billion of which was eventually paid back).
But at the time of the vote, it was by no means clear that Obama would use more than one-fifth of the $350 billion for an auto bailout. And most of the money still went for the bank bailouts that Sanders opposed.

So Clinton’s claim that her Jan. 15, 2009, vote was “to save the auto industry” is — to be charitable — quite a stretch.
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http://www.factcheck.org/2016/03/factchecking-the-seventh-democratic-debate/
 
I

Incognito

Troll
PBY said:
His optics were awful last night (based on the 20ish mins I watched).
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really bad. i watched highlights on politico and he seemed unhinged, louder than usual, and incapable of letting the secretary finish her thoughts. no doubt pressure is getting to him and no way he could last 10 hours in front of a committee like secretary clinton.
 
B

brainchild

Banned
pigeon said:
Well, wait a second. Hillary said that if everybody voted with Bernie she believes the auto industry would have collapsed.

If Bernie voted against releasing funds for the auto bailout that seems straightforwardly true. You can't vote for something and then vote against it and then say only the first vote counted.

What am I missing?
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The fact that she's using that as the basis for the claim that he opposed the auto bailout. Her focus right now is saying that he opposed the auto bailout, and that's what people are going to pay attention to.

Asking Michanganders (or any general population) to draw the connection between how he voted on a separate bailout and how that proves that he opposed the auto bailout is asking too much of them.
 
K

Kusagari

Member
I like Bernie but the dude really is a terrible candidate.

Hopefully in 2024 we get a younger progressive candidate who can handle national campaigning better.
 
N

NeoXChaos

Member
PublicPolicyPolling
‏@ppppolls
Our new Ohio poll: Trump 38, Kasich 35, Cruz 15, Rubio 5. Lots of underlying good numbers for Kasich though:
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56% to 35% for Bernie Sanders. Clinton's up 52/41 with white voters but as has been happening elsewhere what really fuels her lead is a 74/14 advantage with African Americans
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.
 
U

User 463088

Banned
PBY said:
His optics were awful last night (based on the 20ish mins I watched).
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He was even more temper filled than usual. He needed a game changer, and he didn't get it.

NeoXChaos said:
your mom sounds like you.
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We're a lot alike. I'm just fascinated watching her with this whole thing. She's always voted, but I've never seen her so invested (especially in a primary). The only other time I can think of is 2008 when she was voting against Palin moreso than for Obama. She wanted Obama to win, right, but she loathed Sarah Palin. Like, it was a physical hatred.

CCS said:
I'm leaving you for your mum. I'm sorry :p
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:(

Thequietone said:
Plot twist: His mother took over his account months ago.
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Only my Grindr account.
 
E

Ekai

Member
CCS said:
I mean, he did vote against the bailout. However you frame it, that's a vote against the bailout.
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The point is Hillary outright lied about what Bernie was opposed to. The facts do not support her. It's not about framing, it's literally that she was untruthful here.
 
U

User 463088

Banned
On the Democratic side Hillary Clinton has a pretty solid lead with 56% to 35% for Bernie Sanders. Clinton's up 52/41 with white voters but as has been happening elsewhere what really fuels her lead is a 74/14 advantage with African Americans. 81% of Clinton's voters are firmly committed to voting for her, compared to 67% of Sanders'. Among just voters whose minds are totally made up, Clinton's leads expands to 66/34. Sanders leads with 'very liberal' voters 48/39 and younger voters 50/41, but Clinton more than makes up for it with leads of 62/33 among 'somewhat liberal' voters, 61/30 among moderates, and 70/22 with seniors.
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PPP Dem Numbers
 
C

CCS

Banned
Ekai said:
The point is Hillary outright lied about what Bernie was opposed to. The facts do not support her. It's not about framing, it's literally that she was untruthful here.
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How is what she said untruthful? The bill contained the funds for the auto bailout, and he voted against it.
 
J

jtb

Banned
doesn't a Kasich win in Ohio throw the primary even further into chaos? I could live with that. so long as Trump (w/ assist from Cruz) closes the deal in Florida and puts a final nail in Rubio's coffin.
 
Q

QuiteWhittle

Member
brainchild said:
Then she can argue the point of indirect obstructionism. But if she is going to continue to claim that Bernie opposed to bailout, she is going to be painted as a liar and untrustworthy. Furthermore, the technicality only serves to underscore Bernie's point about her ties to Wallstreet. This won't end well.

But, of course, $hillGAF, is going to spin this dubious line of attack as a plus for Clinton. OF COURSE they will.
Click to expand...

Do you really believe this? Do you really believe that in 32 hours Sanders will walk out a winner of the Michigan primary, reversing the month long trend of ostensibly being down by a double-digit margin, because his vote on the auto bailout was misframed?
 
B

brainchild

Banned
Ekai said:
The point is Hillary outright lied about what Bernie was opposed to. The facts do not support her. It's not about framing, it's literally that she was untruthful here.
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Exactly. Indirectly obstructing the bail out != opposing the bailout. There's a lot of things that all candidates indirectly obstruct, but it doesn't mean that they oppose them.
 
E

Ekai

Member
CCS said:
How is what she said untruthful? The bill contained the funds for the auto bailout, and he voted against it.
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Can you even read that post? It's ridiculous that has to be a serious question at this point. He voted against Wall Street bailouts and was for auto-industry ones before that. It's not his fault that the money in the Wall Street case was used for reasons other than what was stated. He's against Wall Street, which is what the money was overwhelmingly for. Hillary lied, plain and simple.
 
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