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[Foffy]

I was going to post exactly this but couldn't get the words right.

The USA is the worlds largest single economy. It is also, for better or for worse, the leader of the West and the worlds only remaining superpower. Culturally it impacts on the world everyday in ways we can't even imagine.

It's not going to shift to universal income before someone else does. It would be wrong for it to do so - supposing it didn't work, at all? The world can't *afford* for the USA to be leaping off into the dark with untested policies, no matter how great we think they are.

The USA isn't Denmark may sound trite, but for something like universal income I'm afraid it's true. We need to see how it works elsewhere before we potentially blow up the single most important in the world.

I can understand that, but it would also appear that the Obama administration wants to get ahead of this train, which leaves us in a pickle. Sitting and thinking this will be an issue for the next generation is now assuming it's further down the road that it may actually be. We kind of cannot go halfway about it now, for that will still be prone for a disaster. So what do we do? Lead from behind? Be worldwide failures like we are with health "care" or social inequality? I prefer Obama's stance is we work with what we have while building the floor for where we're moving; it's not an either/or, but an and approach. I didn't get that sense of direction from Clinton's answers. It spoke more status quo, patching the boat as it's sinking sort of thing. Patch the boat and get a new one is what the game should be.

The Chief of Staff Denis McDonough outright stated the United States should lead the world by example with responses to automation, both in the domain of jobs and their insecurity, but also with their concerns applied to weaponry, but that's a topic I'm not too familiar on. He even stated just this week that a basic income program is a serious thing we need to consider in the next decade or so, not 50 years down the road. I find it very contrasting, and perhaps alarming, that Obama is on his way out and has been absolutely on point here, but Hillary kind of isn't. Again, she's worked with people while being Secretary of State who have made the same arguments the administration is now making, and the fact she's not in line with them is startling.

You know the American Way™ will be we seriously consider it in 150 years, because we will only act neck-deep in a problem before saying "uh oh" about it...

And I do believe another country absolutely will be the first to fire before America. I think Canada makes the best present-day reasons for the program, for they focus on mental health and present poverty.

 

[gcubed]

Man. I'm trying to argue with some Facebook people that Hillary Clinton didn't break the law, and I'm getting pounded by people who have actually gone through the process of getting a security clearance who believe she's getting treated with kid gloves in comparison to how they'd get treated.

I can't effectively respond to them because I've never had to get a security clearance. Even legal arguments about mens rea and actus rea seem ineffectual.

It's tough out there. To the other Facebook warriors out there, I salute you.

I've gone through it, had TS SCI clearance for a while. You'd be fired and in deep shit, not sure in jail, but you also would never have had the opportunity to do what she did because people would never send you questionable clearance email on a personal server, THEY would be in trouble.

You'd never get a clearance again either.

It's a winless argument because it was a failure of the entire state department more so than just Clinton, that it was acceptable before and after her was a major problem.

 

[Measley]

I still think this Comey/House investigation hurts Hillary more than people think. It's going to create multiple commercials of an official sitting in front of Congress openly criticizing a presidential candidate, calling her careless and stating she obviously didn'the care about secrecy or safety. The optics of this are damaging.

It'll only hurt her among the people who already dislike her. It's not going to change the mind of your average voter. I'm willing to bet that the vast majority of Americans don't really give a fuck about any of it.

Additionally, Trump has effectively lost the minority vote completely. He would need to win the white vote at Ronald Reagan levels to have a chance at winning this election.

 

[plagiarize]

Man. I'm trying to argue with some Facebook people that Hillary Clinton didn't break the law, and I'm getting pounded by people who have actually gone through the process of getting a security clearance who believe she's getting treated with kid gloves in comparison to how they'd get treated.

I can't effectively respond to them because I've never had to get a security clearance. Even legal arguments about mens rea and actus rea seem ineffectual.

It's tough out there. To the other Facebook warriors out there, I salute you.

Yeah. I've dealt with those too. Successfully too!

Remind them that the constitution lays out who is eligible to be President, and that Clinton is. Tell them that Bryan H. Nishimura is also eligible to become President even though he asked to never again seek security clearance. Remind them that if elected President there is no one you have to answer to in order to get security clearance. Being President gets you that.

Those are the facts.

You'd never get a clearance again either.

You would if you got elected President. That applies to *anyone*.

Having security clearances revoked doesn't disqualify you from being President. CF the constitution.

 

[Nazgul_Hunter]

I have to agree with Hillary in that I'm not sold on basic income either. It's always going to be a tough sell in the US, and perhaps I'm a product of socialization as much as the next person. I can't say I'm in favor of it yet.

I think it's gonna become a necessity. It feels like we're on the brink of an industrial revolution just as big if not bigger as the previous one, and a lot of people are gonna have nothing to do.

 

[gcubed]

Yeah. I've dealt with those too. Successfully too!

Remind them that the constitution lays out who is eligible to be President, and that Clinton is. Tell them that Bryan H. Nishimura is also eligible to become President even though he asked to never again seek security clearance. Remind them that if elected President there is no one you have to answer to in order to get security clearance. Being President gets you that.

Those are the facts.



You would if you got elected President. That applies to *anyone*.

Having security clearances revoked doesn't disqualify you from being President. CF the constitution.

I'm not saying she's not qualified to be president, I'm just talking about the posters arguments.

 

[plagiarize]

I'm not saying she's not qualified to be president, I'm just talking about the posters arguments.

I'm giving you the factual counter to those arguments. It's up to the American people to decide if Clinton gets security clearance again by being elected President. No one else. There is nothing in law to prevent someone who had security clearance taken away being elected President, and as the legally elected Commander in Chief there is no one who gets to say you don't have complete access to everything.

 

[plagiarize]

I think it's gonna become a necessity. It feels like we're on the brink of an industrial revolution just as big if not bigger as the previous one, and a lot of people are gonna have nothing to do.

If green jobs weren't this massive untapped thing (and quite necessary) and infrastructure expansion and repair weren't at least a decade behind where they need to be (in my opinion) I'd be worried about the labour force. But they are.

I'll start worrying about them in a decade or two when that stuff is all up to snuff. But I hope that stuff gets approved under Clinton and we can start putting people to much needed work.

 

[gcubed]

I'm giving you the factual counter to those arguments. It's up to the American people to decide if Clinton gets security clearance again by being elected President. No one else. There is nothing in law to prevent someone who had security clearance taken away being elected President, and as the legally elected Commander in Chief there is no one who gets to say you don't have complete access to everything.

I agree, I mentioned in my post it's a completely meaningless argument to even have because there are so many differences between the state department and your Facebook friends who have clearance that it's an exercise in futility to even try to argue.

If all Petraus got was a plead down misdemeanor with no jail time, there was no chance in hell that Hillary was getting indicted

 

[plagiarize]

I agree, I mentioned in my post it's a completely meaningless argument to even have because there are so many differences between the state department and your Facebook friends who have clearance that it's an exercise in futility to even try to argue.

If all Petraus got was a plead down misdemeanor with no jail time, there was no chance in hell that Hillary was getting indicted

Well, I actually managed to get my friend with clearance to understand that this didn't disqualify her from being President and wouldn't stop her getting security clearance. So it wasn't futile! But obviously I didn't convince him to support her, which I think is fair enough.

 

[metalslimer]

I thought it was great how Obama pointed out yesterday how everyone loved working with Clinton in the Senate and loved her as SoS before witch hunts began. She's gone from having to work with the people who tried to impeach her husband and becoming friends with some of them to being targeted herself. Look how hard of a time Sanders is having losing when he lost decisively. Clinton went through a much rougher primary and then at least publicly put on a good face immediately and kept fighting More than any other quality her toughness I don't think gets appreciated enough

 

[HylianTom]

I've largely avoided Sanders news/convo, but some might find this interesting..

(Sorry for the odd formatting; this is to be read from bottom to top. Twitter.. sigh..)

 

[TheLostBigBoss]

 

[BitStyle]

I've largely avoided Sanders news/convo, but some might find this interesting..



(Sorry for the odd formatting; this is to be read from bottom to top. Twitter.. sigh..)

I get Sanders's sentiment with his whole "this isn't about winning elections," but if you don't win the election, you sure as hell ain't getting any of that progressive policy in to be "transforming America."
Not with our current political climate.

 

[Outdoor Miner]

I've largely avoided Sanders news/convo, but some might find this interesting..



(Sorry for the odd formatting; this is to be read from bottom to top. Twitter.. sigh..)

It's pretty sad how badly Bernie has played this whole thing out. No man is an island, but Bernie will find himself there 'til the end of his career.

 

[plagiarize]

I've largely avoided Sanders news/convo, but some might find this interesting..

He chose irrelevance.

Also the USD is hitting new highs against the GBP today. Higher even than it went in the 24 hours post Brexit.

 

[bananas]

"The goal isn't to win elections, the goal is to transform America."

How do you expect to do that without winning elections, you dumbass?

 

[metalslimer]

I get Sanders's sentiment with his whole "this isn't about winning elections," but if you don't win the election, you sure as hell ain't getting any of that progressive policy in to be "transforming America."
Not with our current political climate.

He also doesn't realize that the platform doesn't mean shit if you aren't working to build the necessary support across the party. He can fight for 15 nationwide but good luck getting rural dem members to vote for it

 

[Wolfgunblood Garopa]

Sanders has some serious issues with his brain. I don't think it should require that much wisdom to form a more coherent strategy than grandstanding about transforming the country at a time like this. Who is going to appreciate that kind of drama right now?

 

[Foffy]

"The goal isn't to win elections, the goal is to transform America."

How do you expect to do that without winning elections, you dumbass?

By letting it bern to the ground?

Of course, this is assuming a revolution gets everyone what they wanted in the first place. Name one that did for those part of it.

I guess the #Bernieorbust takes on a whole new meaning if that's the route..

 

[Maledict]

"The goal isn't to win elections, the goal is to transform America."

How do you expect to do that without winning elections, you dumbass?

HE'S JEREMY FUCKING CORBYN!

ARRRRGH!

I know we've made the comparison many times, but this really hammers it home. Last week a senior Corbyn official said that their goal was not to form an alternate government, but to lead a social uprising.

At least you folk have the sense to not vote for these relics that want to spend their lives protesting rather than actually making decisions and helping people. We're stuck with our Sander's it seems, just when we need a strong left the most.

 

[plagiarize]

By letting it bern to the ground?

Of course, this is assuming a revolution gets everyone what they wanted in the first place. Name one that did for those part of it.

I guess the #Bernieorbust takes on a whole new meaning if that's the route..

I've always felt that for some using the hashtag, they meant bust quite literally.

HE'S JEREMY FUCKING CORBYN!

ARRRRGH!

I know we've made the comparison many times, but this really hammers it home. Last week a senior Corbyn official said that their goal was not to form an alternate government, but to lead a social uprising.

At least you folk have the sense to not vote for these relics that want to spend their lives protesting rather than actually making decisions and helping people. We're stuck with our Sander's it seems, just when we need a strong left the most.

Hey, lots of people did vote for Sanders. Don't beat yourself up about it too much.

 

[NeoXChaos]

Foffy what happened to your cat avatar?

 

[Foffy]

Foffy what happened to your cat avatar?

I changed it because I became very sympathetic to Doi and his desire to be a computer...

 

[Maledict]

I've always felt that for some using the hashtag, they meant bust quite literally.



Hey, lots of people did vote for Sanders. Don't beat yourself up about it too much.

Heh, in comparison to the unbelievably idiocy of the Brexit vote Corbyn is now a mere side show - but even so it rankles arguing with people about it. on the plus side at least the polls here don't show him winning massively compared to the alternatives... ;-)

 

[Plinko]

I've largely avoided Sanders news/convo, but some might find this interesting..



(Sorry for the odd formatting; this is to be read from bottom to top. Twitter.. sigh..)

Uh, Bernie--to transform America you HAVE TO WIN ELECTIONS. How do you not see this? Ugh.

I would argue that gerrymandering by republicans has transformed American politics more than anything else recently, and they had to win their elections to get that power to gerrymander.

 

[excelsiorlef]

I've largely avoided Sanders news/convo, but some might find this interesting..



(Sorry for the odd formatting; this is to be read from bottom to top. Twitter.. sigh..)

I'm going to do everything to stop Trump...but the goal isn't to win elections. Christ.

 

[NeoXChaos]

I've largely avoided Sanders news/convo, but some might find this interesting..



(Sorry for the odd formatting; this is to be read from bottom to top. Twitter.. sigh..)

I can't even get mad anymore. It's just sad at this point.

 

[User1608]

Is Bernie...really that politically incompetent?

 

[plagiarize]

Heh, in comparison to the unbelievably idiocy of the Brexit vote Corbyn is now a mere side show - but even so it rankles arguing with people about it. on the plus side at least the polls here don't show him winning massively compared to the alternatives... ;-)

Oh, you can beat yourself up about Brexit all you like.

Is Bernie...really that politically incompetent?

He's always been an ideologue. His ideals are more important than anything, winning elections and actually getting shit done included.

 

[Slayven]

Oh, you can beat yourself up about Brexit all you like.



He's always been an ideologue. His ideals are more important than anything, winning elections and actually getting shit done included.

Seems like they are more important than actually seeing any improvement

 

[TheLostBigBoss]

me me me me me

my revolution, my movement

I'm going to change America, it's not about winning elections if I'm not going to be the nominee

hey everyone look at me, I'm so important, I'm making a movement, just like the civil rights movement!!!

can't wait for Warren VP

 

[NYCmetsfan]

Ugh basic income talk...

I'm so sick of a thought experiment (and that's all it is) being talked about like its actual policy that should be implemented.

We have absolutly no idea what it does to productivity, economic growth, jobs, social cohesion, innovation, health, etc. But we're just supposed to jump right in because it sounds good and people are fearing a impending robot take over which can't be supported

47 minutes ago
NEW: HRC is updating her college affordability plan to include free in state college for students whose families make less than $125,000.

If bernie's people bitch about that...

Really if your family makes more than that you can take out loans (at a much lower interest rate tho)

 

[HylianTom]

Right after Trump broadly praised TIME magazine, TIME puts out this:

Donald Trump’s Dream Veep Is Newt Gingrich

The former House Speaker brings experience and still terrifies Democrats

Even nearly 20 years since he departed Congress, Newt Gingrich is still the most feared Republican in America. Why? Because the role of Republican leadership in the three coequal branches of government has largely collapsed since he left.

Newt paints in bold colors, like Ronald Reagan did when he said, “Our people look for a cause to believe in. Is it a third party we need, or is it a new and revitalized second party, raising a banner of no pale pastels, but bold colors which make it unmistakably clear where we stand on all of the issues troubling the people?”

The current Republican leadership is an unimpressive lot. They seem to be placeholders waiting for principled leaders like the former Speaker of the House to emerge. President Obama’s hijacking of the constitutional power of the legislative branch—without cost or pain—would never have happened under a Gingrich-led Congress. The president’s unconstitutional executive orders and general overreach have put America in a constitutional crisis.

That's bait, right? It has to be!

 

[Aaron Strife]

Feingold raised $4.1 million this quarter.

Fuck yes. Can't wait for him to be back in the Senate.

That's the kind of progressive we need. Not someone who says "the goal is to not win elections."

Clearly, Sanders.

 

[pigeon]

Yeah. It sounds extremely bad and is perhaps the strongest attack ad yet against her. Comey didn't hold back.

What exactly do you expect him to say? Hillary said she didn't send classified information. Comey has evidence that she did. Frankly, it really would've been a coverup if he didn't say so. You guys understand that he has to do his job, right?

Let's be clear here, the reason Comey's statement and the independent investigation both said that Hillary was careless is that she actually was careless. She knows everything but apparently she doesn't know how email works. That's kind of bad, honestly. She should probably have done more to get a secure Blackberry instead of creating this entire shitshow in the first place.

I think this Comey hate is pretty disappointing. When your reaction to news is the same as Free Republic but from the other direction my advice is to reexamine your decisions.

 

[pigeon]

Ugh basic income talk...

I'm so sick of a thought experiment (and that's all it is) being talked about like its actual policy that should be implemented.

We have absolutly no idea what it does to productivity, economic growth, jobs, social cohesion, innovation, health, etc. But we're just supposed to jump right in because it sounds good and people are fearing a impending robot take over which can't be supported

I mean, there's also the thing where millions of people would be lifted out of poverty and countless progressive goals would be achieved.

 

[royalan]

Is Bernie...really that politically incompetent?

YES

And people have been calling this out for months.

Why are people acting so new to Bernie? His behavior now is no surprise to anyone who has been paying attention.

 

[TheLostBigBoss]

YES

And people have been calling this out for months.

Why are people acting so new to Bernie? His behavior now is no surprise to anyone who has been paying attention.

validation

we're at the end, and we've always been told "oh he'll come around, dude is just playing hard ball!"

he's at the end, and he's still doing the same shit that he was doing months ago.

 

[NYCmetsfan]

I mean, there's also the thing where millions of people would be lifted out of poverty and countless progressive goals would be achieved.

Do we know this for certain and that they're won't be other negative effects. Again, its a thought experiment. Were has it been tried that we can definitively say this?

I mean when we did large welfare programs in the 30s and 40s we had smaller scale experiments dating back decades. It wasn't a giant leap in the dark.

 

[royalan]

What exactly do you expect him to say? Hillary said she didn't send classified information. Comey has evidence that she did. Frankly, it really would've been a coverup if he didn't say so. You guys understand that he has to do his job, right?

Let's be clear here, the reason Comey's statement and the independent investigation both said that Hillary was careless is that she actually was careless. She knows everything but apparently she doesn't know how email works. That's kind of bad, honestly. She should probably have done more to get a secure Blackberry instead of creating this entire shitshow in the first place.

I think this Comey hate is pretty disappointing. When your reaction to news is the same as Free Republic but from the other direction my advice is to reexamine your decisions.

So the hypotheticals are part of his job?

You can pretend like criticism of Comey's announcement is limited to this thread if you want.

 

[Cybit]

Man. I'm trying to argue with some Facebook people that Hillary Clinton didn't break the law, and I'm getting pounded by people who have actually gone through the process of getting a security clearance who believe she's getting treated with kid gloves in comparison to how they'd get treated.

I can't effectively respond to them because I've never had to get a security clearance. Even legal arguments about mens rea and actus rea seem ineffectual.

It's tough out there. To the other Facebook warriors out there, I salute you.

To be fair; as someone who has also gone through the clearance process, if she weren't SoS; she would have been fired / shitcanned for that level of stupidity. Hell; had this been discovered while she was SoS and publicized, she would have had to resign. But how DoJ proceeded on Petraeus (recommendation was felony charge, DoJ reduced it to misdemeanor) gave a decent insight into how this DoJ looks at these kinds of offenses (Petraeus made the mistake of lying to the investigators, while Clinton just lied to the public, which made the FBI go harder on Petraeus).

If she wanted to keep her personal emails from her business emails - that's fine, set up your own private account and have at it. But the second you start sending your work emails to your personal account, you've screwed up. There are tens of millions, if not hundreds of millions of people who know the difference between their work account and their personal account.

What exactly do you expect him to say? Hillary said she didn't send classified information. Comey has evidence that she did. Frankly, it really would've been a coverup if he didn't say so. You guys understand that he has to do his job, right?

Let's be clear here, the reason Comey's statement and the independent investigation both said that Hillary was careless is that she actually was careless. She knows everything but apparently she doesn't know how email works. That's kind of bad, honestly. She should probably have done more to get a secure Blackberry instead of creating this entire shitshow in the first place.

I think this Comey hate is pretty disappointing. When your reaction to news is the same as Free Republic but from the other direction my advice is to reexamine your decisions.

Pretty much this.

 

[Paskil]

I've largely avoided Sanders news/convo, but some might find this interesting..



(Sorry for the odd formatting; this is to be read from bottom to top. Twitter.. sigh..)

Good shit. People need to keep pushing him. I don't think he has any general awareness to even feel shame. I hope he is actively getting booed by the public by the time his silly counter rally rolls around.

 

[pigeon]

Do we know this for certain and that they're won't be other negative effects. Again, its a thought experiment. Were has it been tried that we can definitively say this?

Do we know for certain that giving people money will raise their income? I have actually done that experiment, yes.

There have also been several studies of the effects in charity situations. Here is one: http://www.princeton.edu/~joha/publications/Haushofer_Shapiro_Policy_Brief_2013.pdf

To be clear, I'm not disagreeing with your specific point that basic incomes should be investigated and studied. But, like, the first step towards that is talking about how they might be a good idea, so complaining that people are doing that seems unproductive.

I do take issue with the suggestion that we have absolutely no idea what would happen. Basic income isn't going to cause a rain of frogs. Poor people will have more cash. Would there be possible consequences? Sure, we should study them. But saying that the first order effects are mysterious gives me the same feeling that I give other people when I say that studying GMOs more would be a good idea.

 

[User 463088]

We're talking about a country in which the gubbmint is trying to stop poor people from buying sugar with food stamps, and we're entertaining the idea of a basic income?

Okay.

 

[Brawly Likes to Brawl]

I just read an article from a copy of SPLC Report that my mother brought in today that claims that teachers across the country are having difficulty discussing the current election period because they're noticing that Trump's rhetoric is having an adverse effect on minority students.

We're talking about a country in which the gubbmint is trying to stop poor people from buying sugar with food stamps, and we're entertaining the idea of a basic income?

Okay.

I'm not looking forward to the foot dragging that's going to occur when people start noticing that BI will have to be a necessity once automation kicks in.

 

[pigeon]

We're talking about a country in which the gubbmint is trying to stop poor people from buying sugar with food stamps, and we're entertaining the idea of a basic income?

Okay.

That's exactly why a basic income would be a good idea, to eliminate the crap that goes along with introducing a stigmatized currency.

 

[Emarv]

Remember when PoliGAF told everyone to stop diablosing? That Bernie would drop out in the next week or so and quickly endorse Clinton?

Oh, those were the days...We were so optimistic back then....

Spoiler

*cue everyone saying he doesn't matter anymore*. I know, I know. Just reminiscing

 

[Brinbe]

Jonny Favs out with a great piece on how Millenials have the ability to shape a progressive and forward-looking future. They just need to get off their collective asses and vote.

A Generational Mandate
Young people can change the future of politics — but will they?

For those of us who’ve participated in politics, it’s true that the process can seem perpetually frustrating and disappointing. I’ve heard a lot of Sanders supporters say that the system is rigged and corrupt, and I can understand why they might feel that way. I’ve heard a lot of the young Silicon Valley crowd suggest that maybe technological innovation can replace politics and government as the best way to improve people’s lives and solve the world’s most difficult challenges. And yes, some of these companies have revolutionized everything from communication and transportation to health care and the environment in profoundly positive ways. But life in a society with millions of different people will always involve arguments over just about everything. And politics is the means by which we have those arguments — arguments over war and peace, justice and opportunity, rights and responsibilities, and all kinds of issues with far-reaching consequences.

In a democracy, you can choose to show up and influence those outcomes with your vote, your voice, your time, and your energy. Sometimes, your side will lose. Sometimes, the politicians you elect will disappoint you. Sometimes, you’ll have to settle for half measures or incremental progress. And when that happens, you go back to the drawing board, and you do more to persuade, organize, mobilize, and keep challenging the status quo until it finally starts to change.

It’s not always satisfying. It’s not often easy. It sometimes seems impossible. But if you choose not to participate — if you decide to not even show up — then you allow a lot of other people you don’t agree with to make some very big decisions that will directly affect your future. You give away the only power you have in a democracy. That’s how we got the Brexit. And that’s the only way we might get Trump.

A generation is now coming of age with a set of beliefs that could sustain pluralistic, liberal democracy long into the future. The only question is whether we’re willing to actually fight for it.

 

[Plinko]

I just read an article from a copy of SPLC Report that my mother brought in today that claims that teachers across the country are having difficulty discussing the current election period because they're noticing that Trump's rhetoric is having an adverse effect on minority students.



I'm not looking forward to the foot dragging that's going to occur when people start noticing that BI will have to be a necessity once automation kicks in.

I work in a high school with about 65% students of another culture. I can confirm this is a massive issue. I'm not exaggerating when I say that any time anybody brings up the election you can see the genuine fear in their eyes. You can hear it in their voices. They're scared to death of this guy shipping back them and their families.

47 minutes ago
NEW: HRC is updating her college affordability plan to include free in state college for students whose families make less than $125,000.

I know this will never happen, but as a father of four? YES, PLEASE.