He came around on weed in CO, as I recall, so he would prevent the crucial Sanders -> Johnson hemorrhaging!
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PoliGAF 2016 |OT7| Notorious R.B.G. Plans NZ Tour
- Thread starter Retromelon
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He came around on weed in CO, as I recall, so he would prevent the crucial Sanders -> Johnson hemorrhaging!
Three vice presidents!
BlastProcessing
Member
Plinko
Wildcard berths that can't beat teams without a winning record should have homefield advantage
You know what is sad, Jeb? Trump actually DOES represent the GOP voter.
If the coup makes Turkey more secular and less pure Islamic, then I'm for it. Democracy is an ideal to strive for, it's not the answer to every problem. Sometimes you must do things undemocratically to preserve a greater good.
The less Islamic influence on countries, the better. I think the same about the influence of any religion on countries governments though.
The less Islamic influence on countries, the better. I think the same about the influence of any religion on countries governments though.
Yeeeeep. He says everything the modern GOP was too afraid to say in public.
I'm not really a big fan of coups, but Erdogan was an utter bastard who was insane with power. If this results in a better situation for the people of Turkey then that's great. It could also get worse for all we know. At this point I'm just hoping whatever happens is stable enough that it doesn't add too much to the clusterfuck currently going on in the region.
That'd be nice. I have a feeling this is going to be a shitshow though.
BlastProcessing
Member
That's a huge if though. It's hard to predict how this chaos settles out.
Spoiled Milk
Banned
I'm... Not going to agree with the president of the confederacy.
This statement is ignorant. You really want a protracted civil war like in Syria? Do you know how many ISIS and Kurdish attacks there have been the past few years? The coup IS the moderate faction representing the secularist elite that live in the cities.
Link
The Autumn Wind
Pretty much the stance he has to take while this whole thing shakes out, no?
Pretty much. If he says "Fuck Erdogan" and he keeps power then he's fucked up diplomatic efforts in the country for decades. Gotta play the game when it comes to foreign relations. Plan on nothing changing, but give yourself enough wiggle room to maneuver if something does change.
metalslimer
Member
Yeah I don't like the fuck yeah GO Erdogan! mentality either as if he some decent person.
Yeah, same applies to the people in power in Turkey.
Yeah, same applies to the people in power in Turkey.
Cesare Borgia
Banned
And what's said publicly doesn't always match what is done privately. This could be a coup with support from the west and we wouldn't know.
Of course. But so far, it does seem the intent is to make a more secular Turkey. So far. Tentatively. We will have to wait and see for the end result.
BlastProcessing
Member
Hey, we found something we agree on!
I am not saying that military intervention in Democracy is never necessary, just that it is an incredibly dangerous and serious undertaking. The Jefferson in your quote and the Davis in mine both felt that they were justified in their rebellion.
This Coup in Turkey is incredibly perilous, even if the Military leaders have the best intentions. If they do not... it could destroy the region. Either way, I don't see how you can cheer it on when there is so much uncertain. Real people are really dying in Turkey tonight.
BlastProcessing
Member
My fear is that someone will use Turkey's history of military coups (which have generally been about resetting democracy) as a smokescreen for a naked power grab.
Exactly. We could have been behind the whole thing and he still needed to say what he said. Foreign relations seems to be a lot like Game of Thrones's Machiavellian shit, act all nice on the surface and make all your moves through the backroom deals and backchannels.
NYCmetsfan
Banned
The excuse making for the subversion of elected representation is bad.
Your cheering for some higher Lord to decide what the proper way to live is. It's not going to lead to good things and it's not in defense of democratic values. It for certain people to preserve their power.
I hate erdogan but this isn't good and shouldn't be justified
Your cheering for some higher Lord to decide what the proper way to live is. It's not going to lead to good things and it's not in defense of democratic values. It for certain people to preserve their power.
I hate erdogan but this isn't good and shouldn't be justified
Except plenty of coups have led to good things throughout history, just as plenty have not. Please stop altering history to support your narratives thanks.
Spoiled Milk
Banned
I've been worried about real people suffering in an Islamist, fascist government like Erdogan's for a long time. I've been worried about Kurds and protestors and democracy (in a country so unusually democratic for the middle east) and rights. And I've been worried about the real people who have already died.
The military knows what it's doing. It'll be fine. I am worried about insurgencies, though. This happened in Pakistan so it might get worse in Turkey.
Words in mouth. What I offered was my chosen outcome (a pipe dream) where the political moderates gain power after Erdogan and the military fall into disrepute after a quick, failed coup that gutters out too soon for a civil war to break out.
What we're liable to get is Erdogan or the coup achieving a toehold on power and riding a wave of popular discontent to dismantle democracy further. Erdogan, to protect himself from the military and get what he wants politically. The military, to protect itself/the country from an Erdogan styled figure. I don't see either as a positive outcome.
And you're speaking authoritatively of the coup's composition, when even now the military and politically secular factions are not acting in unison. This isn't clean like you think it is. This is a quagmire with many competing interests.
RustyNails
Member
Saddam and Reza Shah made their countries more secular too. There's simply no doubt in anyone's mind that as soon as these "secular" dictators come in, they start banning political parties and repress society.
NYCmetsfan
Banned
Coups are bad.
Your basically saying fuck democracy if it doesn't get what I want. It's paternalistic, wrong and leads to worse outcomes in the future.
What do we stand for government by the people or ensuring our ideology prevails.
There's no doubt in your mind, there's plenty of doubt in others. So we'll see.
NYCmetsfan said:
Again, history does not support your blanket "coups are bad." Argue with history. I don't give a fuck about your other black-and-white narrative. Sometimes coups are bad, sometimes they are good.
Spoiled Milk
Banned
Military coup that ended well: Egypt.
Twitter: Senior US military official tells @KimDozier that the Pentagon believes the #Turkey coup will be quickly suppressed.
Welp.
Twitter: Senior US military official tells @KimDozier that the Pentagon believes the #Turkey coup will be quickly suppressed.
Welp.
Tranqueris
Banned
Apparently the state of things has to finally devolve into some full on "maniacal villain disappearing people on a daily basis and publicly executing people in the streets" kind of level before anything should be done about it.
He's going to do it democratically though, that's the important thing.
BlastProcessing
Member
I don't think we have much evidence that the Military knows what they are doing. The pictures I am seeing on my TV lead me to believe that this Coup is in danger of failing. Especially in Istanbul.
If Erdogan makes it through this, he will become even more of a monster.
I mean, I guess Pence will care since he is probably not 100% sure Trump won't flip over the table on the whole thing still.
Once the event is over and Trump actually introduces him he is pretty safe and can breath a sigh of relief... Maybe
NYCmetsfan
Banned
What are these model coups?
NYCmetsfan
Banned
You guys are literally arguing for an unaccountable institution to just decide how government should work. This isn't liberal, this isn't democratic and is wrong.
Obama and Kerry are right here. We should support peaceful change
Obama and Kerry are right here. We should support peaceful change
TumblingHippo
Member
OT8 - America's Cometrumppence
Abinash117
Member
If Erdogan got his way, some say he will be an autocrat and give a lot more powers to himself. You can't really force him out in a democratic fashion, I would guess
Here is a link with a list of just some recent coups, some which ended well, some which did not. There are thousands of such cases throughout history, too many to list here, and the results are so varied and nuanced that to try to make the blanket case that "all coups are bad" is laughably ignorant of history. Yeah people will die, yeah it sucks we got to this point. But coups are not always bad, and sometimes in fact the end result is self-evident net positive. Sorry this complicates such a simplistic worldview.
That does not mean this specific coup will end well (or even succeed, frankly).
Roland_Gunner
Member
The instability in the middle east and africa has more to do with europe shittting the bed back in their colonial days than the us.
He's gonna postpone it again out of "solidarity" for Turkey while he figures out how to get out of Pence.
RustyNails
Member
No self respecting military dictator comes in and says ok guys, carry on. Parties get banned, people get tortured, thrown in prison without trial.
NYCmetsfan
Banned
That wasn't a coup.
I oppose military led coups. The military siding with protestors is vastly differnt
User 463088
Banned
Let's just take a moment to bask in the hellish announcement of Pence as Veep.
We had the terrible, terrible tragedy in Nice, "forcing" Trump to push back his announcement. We have confirmed from multiple media sources that he wanted to back out of his pick, but because it was leaked, he's pretty much stuck. He's going to make the announcement on a SATURDAY, of all days! Said announcement is going to get buried under the Turkey story, thus reinforcing how stupid it was for him to just not get on with it today in spite of the attack in Nice.
And to top it all off, his logo is a "T" fornicating with a "P."
I can't....
We had the terrible, terrible tragedy in Nice, "forcing" Trump to push back his announcement. We have confirmed from multiple media sources that he wanted to back out of his pick, but because it was leaked, he's pretty much stuck. He's going to make the announcement on a SATURDAY, of all days! Said announcement is going to get buried under the Turkey story, thus reinforcing how stupid it was for him to just not get on with it today in spite of the attack in Nice.
And to top it all off, his logo is a "T" fornicating with a "P."
I can't....
People have always lost.
NYCmetsfan
Banned
the shot of cnn turk :/
Except again not always true. It's not even true that every military coup has violence.
People need to stop trying to confirm their deeply held biases and read more history.
metalslimer
Member
This needs to end quickly no matter who comes out on top. So much for this being a calm thing and "Turkey knows how to do coups"
NYCmetsfan
Banned
lets talk about what is happening tonight.
are you in support of what the coup actors are doing?
I literally just saw a video of bodies ripped apart. This isn't in defense of human rights, secularism, or whatever. This isn't how you fight erdogan's power grabs
Oh so we're past the making blanket statements that are factually false part of the discussion.
Again, we need to wait and see the result, but IF the result is a more secular country and less Islamic government whilst still re-establishing the Democratic process in the end then yes I support it. If we have some other result, then I would not support it.
You see it's fun to not think in black and white!
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