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PoliGAF 2017 |OT1| From Russia with Love

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I think it's supposed to be some sort of alpha male thing. He does it all the time.

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Heh, I got my degree in computer science and became a politics junky after I graduated. My current job is the best of both worlds so I'm pretty happy.


Blurry hands seem bigger
 

kirblar

Member
Not replying to the rest because we'll argue in circles forever but my exact point is that assuming hispanics will remain part of the racial underclass and as such always vote Democratic is misguided at best. They vote for us in big numbers now because they aren't given white privilege, that doesn't mean that as they become more integrated and more demographically represented they will remain like that. This is what both Bushes and Rubio understood, and a big part of why Bush beat Kerry.
Hispanics have already integrated because many of them are "white enough" to get past the line. That's why you see the greater gaps relative to other minorities. That is never going to be extended to the entire ethnic group.

Your argument is that we shouldn't rely on them because they'll turn on us eventually- but the groups you want to court have been stabbing us in the back for a generation+.

Suburbs and Cities are the future of both America and the Democratic party. Rural areas don't want to be work alongside "those people."
 

Wilsongt

Member
Another drug company charging a fortune for a drug available for much cheaper outside the US. This time a drug used to treat Duchene's Muscular Dystrophy and will cost $89k/year
 
Another drug company charging a fortune for a drug available for much cheaper outside the US. This time a drug used to treat Duchene's Muscular Dystrophy and will cost $89k/year

Link? I guess I'm a horrible person because I'm more interested in the science behind the drug given how shitty I already know Pharma is.

We should just nationalize drug development already.
 

TheOfficeMut

Unconfirmed Member
I hope the next person to shake this Tic Tac mother fucker's hand pulls it so hard that he falls over and slams his face into the edge of a stage.
 
Heh, I got my degree in computer science and became a politics junky after I graduated. My current job is the best of both worlds so I'm pretty happy.
That's super cool and you're probably doing like my dream job. I kind of grew to hate programming by the end of my third year but I still miss the rush and I really miss the math. Learning politics had math is probably what got me into it lol
 

Joeytj

Banned
wow you read a lot and know your stuff. Political science major or junky?

He read the excellent piece by Matt Stoller at the Atlantic, about the real problem of the Democrats abandoning their populist roots against "big power" and shifting solely to social issues.

I don't care much for Stoller's characterization of Democrats being responsible for Trump, as if the Republicans have no responsibility in shifting the U.S. away from caring about the relationship between the powerful and democracy.

But, everything else is fascinating. It actually gets to the heart of what both sides of the political spectrum feel against the accumulation of power towards elites and away from the "people" regardless of who is actually to blame. Stoller says that Democrats rightfully fought against banks, corporations and even institutions that endangered democracy because they accumulated too much power, and they were rewarded for it by voters. Unfortunately, a generation of Democrats that came to power in the 70s slowly started to do away with that because they didn't think being antitrust (monopolies or big banks) was important anymore.

The article is much more comprehensive than that and full of political and historical titbits you guys would love.
 
While it's still terrible I do feel slightly better knowing that the GOP is actually a bunch of incompetent buffoons at governing the country. Much better than if they actually knew how to achieve their goals.

I will never not laugh/cry when I think of that Chaffetz FB post someone posted in off-topic where he said he was still going to be investigating Hillary after Trump won. They are literally incapable of governing when in power.
 

kirblar

Member
That's super cool and you're probably doing like my dream job. I kind of grew to hate programming by the end of my third year but I still miss the rush and I really miss the math. Learning politics had math is probably what got me into it lol
Please please please at least take Micro and Macro economics before you finish!
Stoller's characterization of Democrats being responsible for Trump,
It's bullshit and immediately reflects horribly on the person making that argument as someone either disingenous or completely ignorant of political realities. Dems have had a grand total of ~3 years with D/D/D setups. The past decades were dominated by the changes Reagan implemented, and Dems had to play in those guidelines. If you want to fix it, you need to overhaul everything (and quickly) if given the opportunity.
 
The Obama coalition has been called "McGovern's Revenge" if that's what you're referring to, but it's not as simple as "gave up economic issues for social issues". The Watergate Babies still cared about economic issues, but they preferred elitism and privatization (a new sort of liberalism) and worked hand in hand with Reagan to help disassemble the New Deal. Clinton crushed the antitrust laws, deregulated large industries, and pushed to emphasize the economy more on high-wage tech and financial work while shifting formed high wage manufacturing jobs and other backbones of uneducated labor abroad. He wasn't the same as Reagan, obviously, he shifted our taxation to be more progressive, he attempted healthcare reform, etc, but fundamentally he was different from the New Dealers before him. Business was an ally to work with, not something that had to be restrained.

I see, but I wasn't saying give up on it. How I intercepted it Watergate Babies wanted more focus on social issues that will effect their new bloc of voters.

While you're certainly right that class-only populism is bad and won't work unless you're running as an ethnonationalist, the big banks *do* hurt these communities. When Illinois imposes harsh austerity measures, who do you think the benefits and consequences most heavily weigh on? Rich people love austerity, it means they have to pay less taxes. It's poor black kids in the South Side of Chicago whose schools are further underfunded that suffer. When unions get broken up, it disproportionately affects the low-wage workers who are people of color. Zephyr Teachout talks in this interview about how our obscenely expensive and privately funded elections keep out women and people of color from running for office.

I never said they didn't. I stated that left-wing populist never connected the issue and have failed to have done so. The hostility of banks and corporations, in my view, is mostly seen in the younger generation, but it is not seen in mostly in minority groups. Proponents of left-wing populism has not gave a reason to support this cause. How I see it, there is casual level of support of some progressive issues. They support some of the causes, but that is not their main voting reason. A young liberal voter that voted for Bernie in the primary and WWC conservative voter that voted for Trump may think the upper class needs to be taxed more, but I think it is less likely that they think it is the same priority and their voting habits will stiff differ.

While this isn't to say that breaking up the banks would "end racism", concentrating power in the hands of an increasingly small number of hands hasn't been beneficial to people of color. And luckily, Bernie and other left-wing populists have remained steadfast in their commitments to protecting immigrants and PoC. It's Warren who was reading the letter from Coretta Scott King to protest Sessions. Bernie was saying that we need more women, more people of color, and more LGBT representation in the government. Their messaging might not be perfect but their goal isn't to abandon all non-class issues for a class only focus.

Let's not pretend Hillary's messaging wasn't tone deaf either, considering she began her campaign off visiting a black church in Missouri and said All Lives Matter.

I'm likely to applaud Hillary for consistently talking about racist injustice slightly before her campaign and during it, than Bernie who seemingly got the picture only after getting his mic getting taken away. The issue still is they are bad at connecting the issue and in terms of Bernie, especially , is really bad at doing it. His criticism of "identity politics" in my opinion was tone deaf, and not getting the picture.
The WWC aren't a homogenous blob and didn't all immediately exit the Democratic coalition. They were an important part of it just four years ago! An Obama that loses the Rust Belt entirely but wins NC and FL is still a loser. These were (along with black voters, obviously) one of the Democrats groups to stay loyal after the New Deal fell apart. They stuck it out with Dukakis, Clinton, Kerry, and Gore before. They didn't leave when Obama said gay people should be able to get married. But when their communities are dying of opioid addiction as wealthy people fire them, the messages they get from the people they've loyally supported are "America is already great" and "we'll just replace you with wealthy suburbanites".

Who is to say that working class also only represents the WWC? This a problem that gets brought up when (wrong) people say that we need to focus only on the WWC, but the response from the black working class this election was largely to stay home. Hillary's share of the black vote was worse than Gore's. Before anyone comes out to say this, I'm not trying to blame them because obviously the election was decided by flipped WWC voters. But the idea that their problems can be largely ignored in a campaign that spends its first GE month with wealthy donors and then a large amount of targeted messaging trying to peel off Romney voters who want someone who won't crash their stocks but otherwise just want tax cuts and the status quo, their answer is to stay home. Some of that was due to voter suppression.

The WWC certainly doesn't only represent the working-class, but the the certainly do make the make it majority of it. Similar to how when Dems when the women vote it is mostly because of minority women. The WWC is not a monolith, but in my view many of them they do believe in certain things that aligns them with the GOP and Trump, of course not all of them do and many can be won back, but they aren't the future of the party and most of them are very against a few Democrat ideals. It should be stated that the Black and Hispanic working class aren't necessary the ones that isn't leaving the Dems and I don't think, overwhelming voted for Trump, a lot did stay at home yes, but they didn't vote for Trump.

My first point is that the election being close to begin with should be a big warning flag and that even winning the extra necessary 40k votes in WI/PA/MI only puts off the pain.

But as to the idea that as the country becomes less white the Democrats will be unstoppable, we should look at the case of the ethnic Catholic immigrant. When they came to this country, they were like Hispanics! They didn't speak English, they had the wrong religion, they formed their own communities, and anti-immigrant sentiment swelled. No Irish Need Apply was a thing. Eventually, the northern Democratic party (a very different creature than the south at the time, unsurprisingly) pulled them into their wings, gave them jobs and were rewarded for it politically. These workers became a large part of the labor backbone of the New Deal and were key to the unstoppable coalition, along with black voters and white southerners. When one of their own (kind of) Kennedy ran, he had to make a big speech declaring that he firmly believed in the separation of church and state and that he wasn't an actor of the Pope, such was the distrust of Catholics. It was not unlike the A More Perfect Union speech.

But as they became more integrated into the white population and became to be considered 'white' unlike before, their political opinions diversified. They were less defined as a bloc by their outsider religion status and more by other factors. It's not that they just "became conservative" it's that they became white and their political interests were defined by other factors, like income and geography. A unionized Great Lakes Catholic in Wisconsin was probably still a Democrat, but the white Catholic was suddenly much less politically married to the Democratic party than it had been before.

My point here is that hispanics becoming a larger portion of our population doesn't guarantee that they'll remain politically defined by being hispanic. They might even become white! That was the Republican strategy before Trump won, to get hispanics to vote less homogenously and peel off those who vote Democratic because of anti-immigrant sentiments but otherwise don't necessarily correspond to Democratic ideologies.

You have a point, especially on the first part, however, Hispanics as a whole are much more close to Democrats they they were Republican and really little sign of shifting to the Republicans considering the younger generation has been left and Hispanics has voted for Democrats for years now. I am skeptical the same thing is going to happen is Hispanic whom are already a ethnic diverse group, and cultural diverse group. The Republicans have been trying to grab minority groups for years know, but it seems their is to much differences for them to go over to the GOP.

Obama's right that you shouldn't rely on demographics, and he is also right that his coalition is still important. The demographics are changing you have to account for that no matter what, but you need a winning message to keep up and bring them together.
 

hawk2025

Member
He read the excellent piece by Matt Stoller at the Atlantic, about the real problem of the Democrats abandoning their populist roots against "big power" and shifting solely to social issues.

I don't care much for Stoller's characterization of Democrats being responsible for Trump, as if the Republicans have no responsibility in shifting the U.S. away from caring about the relationship between the powerful and democracy.

But, everything else is fascinating. It actually gets to the heart of what both sides of the political spectrum feel against the accumulation of power towards elites and away from the "people" regardless of who is actually to blame. Stoller says that Democrats rightfully fought against banks, corporations and even institutions that endangered democracy because they accumulated too much power, and they were rewarded for it by voters. Unfortunately, a generation of Democrats that came to power in the 70s slowly started to do away with that because they didn't think being antitrust (monopolies or big banks) was important anymore.

The article is much more comprehensive than that and full of political and historical titbits you guys would love.


My problem with these types of articles is that they just plain ignore so much about what was actually part of Clinton's platform.

A major example (because it's one I'm very familiar with) is that Clinton planned on significantly expanding the clout of the DOJ and FTC into pursuing more aggressive antitrust policies. And all it takes is ONE google search on the subject to find a comprehensive, thorough description of what that would be.

The campaign DID think antitrust was important. People just don't care. Like a lot of these post-mortem, ex-post rationalization articles, we are pretending they do to come out with a diagnostic of the election.

Clinton had the most thorough and comprehensive platform I've ever seen in an election. It didn't matter.
 
My problem with these types of articles is that they just plain ignore so much about what was actually part of Clinton's platform.

A major example (because it's one I'm very familiar with) is that Clinton planned on significantly expanding the clout of the DOJ and FTC into pursuing more aggressive antitrust policies. And all it takes is ONE google search on the subject to find a comprehensive, thorough description of what that would be.

They DID think being antitrust was important. People just don't care. We are pretending they do to come out with a diagnostic of the election.
a) It says anitrust sentiment is coming back

b) I watched the debates and several Clinton speeches and I don't remember her mentioning it

c) the downside of "two for the price of one" is that people will associate you with the administration you were a part of
 
My problem with these types of articles is that they just plain ignore so much about what was actually part of Clinton's platform.

A major example (because it's one I'm very familiar with) is that Clinton planned on significantly expanding the clout of the DOJ and FTC into pursuing more aggressive antitrust policies. And all it takes is ONE google search on the subject to find a comprehensive, thorough description of what that would be.

The campaign DID think antitrust was important. People just don't care. Like a lot of these post-mortem, ex-post rationalization articles, we are pretending they do to come out with a diagnostic of the election.

Clinton had the most thorough and comprehensive platform I've ever seen in an election. It didn't matter.

If there was a poll about what is costing the economic loss of the working-class and rural voters, I wouldn't think the financial system screwing them would be at the top. If it is up there or not, the faults would still be immigration, globalization, and things like too much government.
 

hawk2025

Member
a) It says anitrust sentiment is coming back

b) I watched the debates and several Clinton speeches and I don't remember her mentioning it

c) the downside of "two for the price of one" is that people will associate you with the administration you were a part of

The administration she was a part of just blocked the massive Aetna/Humana and Anthem/Cigna mergers.

She was planning on being even more aggressive in antitrust.

I don't quite see the relevance of points (a) and (b). People don't care about antitrust. They don't even know what it is. But the receipts of her campaign were there for the ones that did.

If there was a poll about what is costing the economic loss of the working-class and rural voters, I wouldn't think the financial system screwing them wouldn't be at the top. If it is up there or not, the faults would be immigration, globalization, and things like to much government.

Yep, that's my guess.
 
lol what was Dean thinking trying to reach out to Meghan McCain? Saw the same thing from some posters here too, just because she hates Trump doesn't mean she's a "Dem at heart" or whatever feel good stuff people were saying while ignoring her history.

Howard Dean @GovHowardDean
Meghan, you've been a Dem in your soul for a long time. Cmon over to the side of the good guys. We admire war heros like your Dad over here

Meghan McCain ‏@MeghanMcCain
.@GovHowardDean you admire my dad like when you guys compared him to George Wallace in '08? You and your party are radical extremists.

https://twitter.com/GovHowardDean/status/830050943714598912
 

Teggy

Member
WE WONT SEE YOU IN COURT.

Sounds like they won't be appealing the 9th circuit court in favor of a new EO.
Which will wind up immediately in court.
 
Good luck getting folks to see the causal link!

Presidential approval ratings are the key factor in re-election (but apparently not the election of your successor) and those are heavily influenced by how much economic growth there is.

I'm not sure it's a winning policy for winning election, but it's a possibly good policy for winning re-election.
 
T

thepotatoman

Unconfirmed Member
My problem with these types of articles is that they just plain ignore so much about what was actually part of Clinton's platform.

A major example (because it's one I'm very familiar with) is that Clinton planned on significantly expanding the clout of the DOJ and FTC into pursuing more aggressive antitrust policies. And all it takes is ONE google search on the subject to find a comprehensive, thorough description of what that would be.

The campaign DID think antitrust was important. People just don't care. Like a lot of these post-mortem, ex-post rationalization articles, we are pretending they do to come out with a diagnostic of the election.


Clinton had the most thorough and comprehensive platform I've ever seen in an election. It didn't matter.

https://www.hillaryclinton.com/brie...-and-our-consumers-grow-and-prosper-together/

I look at that and see a very weak commitment to doing much other than the status quo. "Make stronger", "empower", and "encourage" aren't policy positions, they're vague platitudes.

One of the most important email leaks was of a Citigroup executive sending Podesta a list of potential cabnet picks a full 2 months before Obama was first elected. Every single eventual cabinet member was on that list.

When Elizabeth Warren was rumored as the potential VP, many from wall street came out in outrage, specifically naming Tim Kaine as their prefered pick, and Kaine ended up the nominee. And according to Warren, Hillary directly told her she was dropping support from a bankrupcy bill specifically for her wall street donors.

The technocrats of the democratic party do have the right goals in mind, but always with a goal to please everyone. When it comes to Wall Street, they have a lot more veto power than regular people do, by virtue of access to their ears if nothing else. Wall Street certainly doesn't have complete control over Democrats like Obama and Hillary like they do Republicans. Hillary certainly wouldn't give them everything they want, but she would generally give them the status quo.

You could at least make the case that she's no different from Obama, but that's where her poor instincts for optics separates them, with those wall street speeches, "I told the banks to cut it out", and invoking 9/11 to defend her contributions.

She's not really a friend or a foe of wall street, but she is a pragmatist, not a populist, which I think is the main thing the article was trying to get at.
 
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