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[Valhelm]

Except the young people didn't actually turn out for Bernie in the primaries. Corbyn I will concede managed to harness the young vote amazingly, but Bernie didn't actually manage to do so.

Charisma helps, but from what I remember working for the campaign, canvassing college students was literally the most frustrating kind of canvassing. Most of the time the student was perfectly capable of voting, but simply did not give a shit at all about politics. With any other kind of potential voter I could ask them what policy issues mattered most to them and they could give me an answer that I could work with, but the college students would usually not even have an answer. They literally didn't have an answer to a simple question like "What policy issues matter most to you?"

I literally had more success finding democratic supporters canvassing door to door in rural areas than canvassing in college areas.

More young primary votes were cast for Bernie than for Hillary and Trump combined. Given the universally low turnout of primary elections, this is a pretty big deal.

The far left and ideologue libertarians both make the same fundamental mistake regarding people: They vastly overestimate their capacity for decency/rationality. Direct Democracy is worst Democracy for a reason.

Direct democracy is great as long as you can find some way to contain the capacity for harm. The only times direct democracy is harmful is when it allows for the reentrenchment of other hierarchical systems (be them economic, racial, or sexual), thus enabling a reactionary agenda. What we ought to do is find a way to democratize politics as much as possible while also protecting the well-being of vulnerable populations. This allows for far greater participation within our political system and ensures that policy serves the greatest number of people.

Full-on socialism is a great way to do this, but that's not remotely possible in our current political climate. But creating grassroots democratic institutions, particularly in underprivileged communities, can help us get there.

 

[pigeon]

Ah yes, the endless spree of posts complaining that people don't just automatically vote for Democrats is much more useful. I'll be gone!

So because some people make shitty posts you're arguing I should support you because your posts are slightly less shitty? I dunno, man, that sounds pretty incrementalist to me. Maybe the question you should be asking yourself is, what is there about my posts that somebody would actually find worth reading?

 

[Dubbedinenglish]

Can't imagine why anyone would be excited to vote for Ossoff unless they just don't like Trump or the GOP. Which is motivating for some, sure. But enough?

I uhh what? He isn't generic D candidate. He cleared the D field on name recognition, cutting slick ads and being selling himself well. He's a very smart candidate that is competing on his own merit. People here are absolutely out to vote for him, not just against Trump.

 

[Holmes]

The post-shooting bump was short lived.

 

[StopMakingSense]

We have gotten lower, 35/60 a week or so ago.

Yeah. The thing to notice is how his peaks are lowering. His support is softening.

 

[Aaron Strife]

The far left and ideologue libertarians both make the same fundamental mistake regarding people: They vastly overestimate their capacity for decency/rationality. Direct Democracy is worst Democracy for a reason.

Heard this argument all the time during the primaries, and still after.

"Well if you just explain that people save money through single-payer they won't mind the higher taxes!"

I really hate political adages but "if you're explaining, you're losing" is 100% spot-on. Dumbass bumper sticker slogans are what win elections. Hope and change, yes we can. Make America great again.

"Medicare for All" is easily the best way to sell universal healthcare. Bernie stammering on stage about how he's going to raise your taxes, "but it's a pretty good deal" is not.

Yeah. The thing to notice is how his peaks are lowering. His support is softening.

I've noticed this, he keeps receding. He got a little boost just now that didn't even crack 40% approval.

 

[balladofwindfishes]

The post-shooting bump was short lived.

It existed in the first place?

 

[Autodidact]

Aren't there separate polls for personal approval and job approval ratings, or am I just imagining things? This poll explicitly says job approval ratings.

 

[AntraxSuicide]

RAIN MOVES ALL DAY IT IS NOT STAGNANT THE STORM HAS BEEN MAKING ITS WAY THROUGH THE DISTRICT
HAHSHAHXBSKAHYCHQKn nbanajoaiNs
Wsjdjs

The rain comes in, the rain goes out, you can't explain that

 

[Box of Kittens]

Ah yes, the endless spree of posts complaining that people don't just automatically vote for Democrats is much more useful. I'll be gone!

"People should automatically vote for Democrats" is a strawman. Even speaking as someone who thinks the Democratic Party should be adopting more of Bernie's positions and messaging, you still need to recognize that you personally do not speak for all Democratic voters or potential Democratic voters and that people in a suburban district like GA-6 may have different priorities.

Who says populism has to be white and rural?

Populism just means appealing to average people. The average person in Miami is a lot different from the average person in Wyoming.

The issue is that any discussion of "average people" inherently relies on defining who the average people are. Populism doesn't necessarily define the average person as white and rural, but it certainly has a tendency to do so.

 

[whyamihere]

Aren't there separate polls for personal approval and job approval ratings, or am I just imagining things? This poll explicitly says job approval ratings.

Yes.

Obama's personal approval ratings were always slightly above his job approval ratings, Trump the opposite.

 

[kirblar]

Populism is majoritarian in nature. It argues for the "will of the people" over those evil "elites." The former group were always historically white, male, and rural. It's why Trump was able to successfully run a populist campaign, and why it went over like a lead balloon w Democrats.

 

[TestOfTide]

The far left and ideologue libertarians both make the same fundamental mistake regarding people: They vastly overestimate their capacity for decency/rationality. Direct Democracy is worst Democracy for a reason.

It's not even decency/rationality. It's the capacity for young people to show they are capable of actually giving a shit.

More young primary votes were cast for Bernie than for Hillary and Trump combined. Given the universally low turnout of primary elections, this is a pretty big deal.

But the problem is that 2,000,000 by that point is still way too low. And the fact that Bernie hasn't been able to transfer this enthusiasm onto other candidates shows me that it was never about actual policy but it was just a cult of personality.

Who says populism has to be white and rural?

Populism just means appealing to average people. The average person in Miami is a lot different from the average person in Wyoming.

With the exception of some kinds of deep urban populism, nearly all populism is extremely rural in nature. In fact, the very first movement in America to refer to itself as the "Populist" movement was both VERY anti-corporation, and VERY racist.

 

[NeoXChaos]

Except the young people didn't actually turn out for Bernie in the primaries. Corbyn I will concede managed to harness the young vote amazingly, but Bernie didn't actually manage to do so.

Charisma helps, but from what I remember working for the campaign, canvassing college students was literally the most frustrating kind of canvassing. Most of the time the student was perfectly capable of voting, but simply did not give a shit at all about politics. With any other kind of potential voter I could ask them what policy issues mattered most to them and they could give me an answer that I could work with, but the college students would usually not even have an answer. They literally didn't have an answer to a simple question like "What policy issues matter most to you?"

I literally had more success finding democratic supporters canvassing door to door in rural areas than canvassing in college areas.

can you really expect kids just starting their adult lives to have a opinion on economic issues etc.?

 

[Box of Kittens]

Rule of thumb: "Approval" ratings are about job performance, "favorable" ratings are about the person.

 

[Pryce]

Heard this argument all the time during the primaries, and still after.

"Well if you just explain that people save money through single-payer they won't mind the higher taxes!"

I really hate political adages but "if you're explaining, you're losing" is 100% spot-on. Dumbass bumper sticker slogans are what win elections. Hope and change, yes we can. Make America great again.

"Medicare for All" is easily the best way to sell universal healthcare. Bernie stammering on stage about how he's going to raise your taxes, "but it's a pretty good deal" is not.


I've noticed this, he keeps receding. He got a little boost just now that didn't even crack 40% approval.

The 2020 Democrat candidate needs to run on this. Hillary's campaign failed on this miserably, and Bernie succeeded. I hope they take notes.

 

[Stinkles]

Young people would vote if you could do it online and earn an achievement.

I am not kidding.

 

[Valhelm]

The issue is that any discussion of "average people" inherently relies on defining who the average people are. Populism doesn't necessarily define the average person as white and rural, but it certainly has a tendency to do so.

I think this is a pretty short-sighted understanding of populism. Populism is only reactionary when it taps into reactionary views. Trump is the best example, but he was pretty different from other hard-right candidates we've seen recently. Trump was not a populist simply because he was hateful, but because he found a way to hate marginalized people while also convincing many disillusioned conservatives that they were going to win something. He connected longstanding and irrational fears predicated on hatred to legitimate material concerns which emerged more recently. This is why Trump won the nomination while Santorum and Gingrich couldn't.

Bernie and Corbyn provided a very different type of populism. Instead of tapping into the reactionary concerns of normal people, they went straight for the jugular and offered proactive policies which would substantially alleviate the material suffering of beleaguered communities. They didn't fall back on destructive hierarchies or mar their advocacy with concessions to big business.

This kind of populism happens every day on a local level. Look at the Fight-for-15 campaigns across America, which are hugely driven by working people of color. Black Lives Matter, by championing the rights of everyday black people in defiance of forces which hate them, is exceptionally populist by most understandings.

 

[cartoon_soldier]

Medicaid for All is the single payer path.

 

[kirblar]

I think this is a pretty short-sighted understanding of populism. Populism is only reactionary when it taps into reactionary views. Trump was not a bigot because he tried to appeal to a broad selection of normal people, but because he used populist language to sell his bigotry. Trump was pretty different from other hard-right candidates we've seen recently, because he found a way to hate marginalized people while also convincing many disillusioned conservatives that they were going to win something. This is why he won the nomination while Santorum and Gingrich couldn't.

Bernie and Corbyn provided a very different type of populism. Instead of tapping into the reactionary concerns of normal people, they went straight for the jugular and offered proactive policies which would substantially alleviate the material suffering of beleaguered communities. They didn't fall back on destructive hierarchies or mar their advocacy with concessions to big business.

This kind of populism happens every day on a local level. Look at the Fight-for-15 campaigns across America, which are hugely driven by working people of color. Black Lives Matter, by championing the rights of everyday black people in defiance of forces which hate them, is exceptionally populist by most understandings.

Fight for 15 is a union-backed marketing and messaging campaign.

BLM is a minority activist group.

Neither is in any way shape or form populist in nature.

 

[TestOfTide]

can you really expect kids just starting their adult lives to have a opinion on economic issues etc.?

I'm not expecting them to be able to talk about every issue in great detail, but I figured it wouldn't be too much to expect that they at least have SOMETHING policy related that they care about somewhat.

I think this is a pretty short-sighted understanding of populism. Populism is only reactionary when it taps into reactionary views. Trump is the best example, but he was pretty different from other hard-right candidates we've seen recently. Trump was not a populist simply because he was hateful, but because he found a way to hate marginalized people while also convincing many disillusioned conservatives that they were going to win something. He connected longstanding and irrational fears predicated on hatred to legitimate material concerns which emerged more recently. This is why Trump won the nomination while Santorum and Gingrich couldn't.

Bernie and Corbyn provided a very different type of populism. Instead of tapping into the reactionary concerns of normal people, they went straight for the jugular and offered proactive policies which would substantially alleviate the material suffering of beleaguered communities. They didn't fall back on destructive hierarchies or mar their advocacy with concessions to big business.

This kind of populism happens every day on a local level. Look at the Fight-for-15 campaigns across America, which are hugely driven by working people of color. Black Lives Matter, by championing the rights of everyday black people in defiance of forces which hate them, is exceptionally populist by most understandings.

Black Lives Matter was not a populist movement. It was a civil rights movement that was about more than just "fuck the establishment".

You're right that Bernie was tapping into populism, which is what led him to do shit like attack Planned Parenthood and an HIV advocacy group. It also led him to claim that Democrats living in the southern states are not "real democrats" (which is pretty ridiculous coming from BERNIE FUCKING SANDERS).

 

[Aaron Strife]

Trump's approvals in Gallup are very similar to a poll that just came out from CBS News finding him at his all-time low, 36/57.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/trumps-handling-of-russia-investigations-weighs-on-approval-ratings/

I think someone mentioned already that his approval rating among Republicans is lower than usual (72%) but I don't recall seeing the overall numbers.

 

[StopMakingSense]

Trump's approvals in Gallup are very similar to a poll that just came out from CBS News finding him at his all-time low, 36/57.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/trumps-handling-of-russia-investigations-weighs-on-approval-ratings/

I think someone mentioned already that his approval rating among Republicans is lower than usual (72%) but I don't recall seeing the overall numbers.

Whoa 72 is a crazy R number.

 

[Valhelm]

Fight for 15 is a union-backed marketing and messaging campaign.

BLM is a minority activist group.

Neither is in any way shape or form populist in nature.

Black activism is extremely populist for black communities. It's about championing the rights of normal, everyday people who broadly suffer from various oppressive forces.

For obvious reasons, populism for black people is usually a lot less reactionary than populism for white people. A populism for everyone is only reactionary if its leaders wish it to be. Populism need not be Jacksonian, and egalitarian populists have defied expectations in the past couple years.

Medicaid for All is the single payer path.

Agreed.

 

[Ac30]

Young people would vote if you could do it online and earn an achievement.

I am not kidding.

Special edition armour in Halo 6, only available when you scan "I voted!" lapel pins

Make it happen Stinkles

 

[BlastProcessing]

RAIN MOVES ALL DAY IT IS NOT STAGNANT THE STORM HAS BEEN MAKING ITS WAY THROUGH THE DISTRICT
HAHSHAHXBSKAHYCHQKn nbanajoaiNs
Wsjdjs

 

[kirblar]

Black activism is extremely populist for black communities. It's about championing the rights of normal, everyday people who broadly suffer from various oppressive forces.

For obvious reasons, populism for black people is usually a lot less reactionary than populism for white people. A populism for everyone is only reactionary if its leaders wish it to be. Populism need not be Jacksonian, and egalitarian populists have defied expectations in the past couple years.

Agreed.

Please go look up a definition of populism, because this is just turning into a repeat of yesterday's Socialism discussion where you have created your own definition that in no way shape or form reflects the actual meaning of the word.

 

[AntraxSuicide]

I think this is a pretty short-sighted understanding of populism. Populism is only reactionary when it taps into reactionary views. Trump is the best example, but he was pretty different from other hard-right candidates we've seen recently. Trump was not a populist simply because he was hateful, but because he found a way to hate marginalized people while also convincing many disillusioned conservatives that they were going to win something. He connected longstanding and irrational fears predicated on hatred to legitimate material concerns which emerged more recently. This is why Trump won the nomination while Santorum and Gingrich couldn't.

Bernie and Corbyn provided a very different type of populism. Instead of tapping into the reactionary concerns of normal people, they went straight for the jugular and offered proactive policies which would substantially alleviate the material suffering of beleaguered communities. They didn't fall back on destructive hierarchies or mar their advocacy with concessions to big business.

This kind of populism happens every day on a local level. Look at the Fight-for-15 campaigns across America, which are hugely driven by working people of color. Black Lives Matter, by championing the rights of everyday black people in defiance of forces which hate them, is exceptionally populist by most understandings.

While it'd be nice to take the word to something it's not currently used for, populism and BLM are never considered in the same breath. It's almost a No True Populist argument to say that populism doesn't have issues with social justice. Most populists in our country's history have had problems with social issues. It's an element of how the discussion forms; when you say that you're working against Wall Street, you might be picturing a banker in a suit or something. But it's not a big leap to say that it morphs into people picturing anyone at all in an urban area, and that starts getting racially charged.

Look at any number of the "We interviewed Trump voters post-election" articles. I remember someone saying, "I didn't think he'd take away healthcare from all of us, just those people in [I forget the city, think it was Cincinnati or Cleveland as I think she was in Ohio] who were abusing it." Now, is that person necessarily thinking about black people when she talks about elites in cities taking money that belongs to rural people? No. Would you, or any of us, bet our houses that this person isn't thinking that? I wouldn't, and I doubt anyone would.

So yeah, it'd be cool to see a new form of populism that doesn't effectively dogwhistle in rural areas to get votes, but I haven't seen one recently (Jesse Jackson back in the day would be a good template I think)

 

[TestOfTide]

Whoa 72 is a crazy R number.

A friend of mine who has been taking trips up in rural NH said he noticed something lately.

Basically, a few months ago, when he went up there, he would still see all the Trump signs and Trump bumper stickers all around, meaning his voters were still with him.

But in his recent trips, he noticed a lot less of them. Meaning that many people who used to have em have removed their stickers and signs, which means they no longer are proud of Trump.

He said that when talking with these guys, a lot of them were complaining about Trump's constant vacations. People know that Trump keeps vacationing on his golf courses every weekend and no one likes that fact.

Black activism is extremely populist for black communities. It's about championing the rights of normal, everyday people who broadly suffer from various oppressive forces.

For obvious reasons, populism for black people is usually a lot less reactionary than populism for white people. A populism for everyone is only reactionary if its leaders wish it to be. Populism need not be Jacksonian, and egalitarian populists have defied expectations in the past couple years.

Stop. You clearly don't actually know what populism means or even what its origins are, ESPECIALLY the origins of American Populism (here's a hint: American Populism has VERY racist origins).

Activism and Populism are not the same thing.

 

[pigeon]

Black activism is extremely populist for black communities. It's about championing the rights of normal, everyday people who broadly suffer from various oppressive forces.

Obviously if you redefine the word "populist" to mean "good" then all the stuff you like is populist.

Please go look up a definition of populism, because this is just turning into a repeat of yesterday's Socialism discussion where you have created your own definition that in no way shape or form reflects the actual meaning of the word.

Kirblar is wrong about socialism, but right about this word. If what you mean by populist is "it will help ordinary people" then we all support populism all the time, but that also makes it a pretty useless word.

 

[kirblar]

Trump is pulling a Jimmy Carter. Nothing is getting done and people know it.

Obviously if you redefine the word "populist" to mean "good" then all the stuff you like is populist.

Amazing how that works for Socialism too!

 

[studyguy]

I hear locusts have descended on the GA-6 and first born children are disappearing too.

 

[Box of Kittens]

Anecdotally, my father-in-law plastered his Facebook page with pro-Trump stuff from before the election to shortly after inauguration. I've haven't seen him post anything about Trump in a while. I would guess he still supports Trump, but he certainly seems to be a lot less enthusiastic.

 

[pigeon]

Trump is pulling a Jimmy Carter. Nothing is getting done and people know it.

Amazing how that works for Socialism too!

I literally tried to edit in time to avoid this but failed.

Social democracy has a meaningful definition that is distinguishable and identifiable while still being reasonably connected with socialism. The same isn't true for civil rights movements as a form of populism.

 

[Valhelm]

While it'd be nice to take the word to something it's not currently used for, populism and BLM are never considered in the same breath. It's almost a No True Populist argument to say that populism doesn't have issues with social justice. Most populists in our country's history have had problems with social issues. It's an element of how the discussion forms; when you say that you're working against Wall Street, you might be picturing a banker in a suit or something. But it's not a big leap to say that it morphs into people picturing anyone at all in an urban area, and that starts getting racially charged.

Look at any number of the "We interviewed Trump voters post-election" articles. I remember someone saying, "I didn't think he'd take away healthcare from all of us, just those people in [I forget the city, think it was Cincinnati or Cleveland as I think she was in Ohio] who were abusing it." Now, is that person necessarily thinking about black people when she talks about elites in cities taking money that belongs to rural people? No. Would you, or any of us, bet our houses that this person isn't thinking that? I wouldn't, and I doubt anyone would.

So yeah, it'd be cool to see a new form of populism that doesn't effectively dogwhistle in rural areas to get votes, but I haven't seen one recently (Jesse Jackson back in the day would be a good template I think)

Bernie and Corbyn? Bernie was definitely insufficient in his early racial advocacy and has trouble connecting with black communities, but I think he would fit the bill. I'm not aware of him appealing to reactionary sentiments during his campaign train.

Corbyn seems to have been even more proactively anti-racist than Bernie despite leading a campaign in a much whiter country. While the circumstances aren't totally similar (Corbyn was not directly running for the position of head of government), I think they both offered a progressive populism.

Kirblar is wrong about socialism, but right about this word. If what you mean by populist is "it will help ordinary people" then we all support populism all the time, but that also makes it a pretty useless word.

Isn't populism just appealing to average voters?

It seems like populism is only reactionary when it appeals to the reactionary sentiments of average voters. And populism on a national scale involves a very different kind of appeal than populism on a local scale, especially if this local scale is not overwhelmingly white.

 

[whyamihere]

Please go look up a definition of populism, because this is just turning into a repeat of yesterday's Socialism discussion where you have created your own definition that in no way shape or form reflects the actual meaning of the word.

I mean, I actually think this amounts to your definitions of socialism and social democracy!

 

[Carpe Libertatem]

Black people tried populism after Reconstruction. Didn't work out, since whites crushed anything they were trying to do.

Populism just doesn't really work for minorities, for obvious reasons. Well, I guess it worked for a few years until white people decided they valued white supremacy above all else.

 

[Dubbedinenglish]

The evil witch of San Francisco has cast her spell. Nancy Beatrix Pelosi * will curse GA with her wicked spawn.









*Don't know her actual middle name but that is a good witch name.

 

[kirblar]

I mean, I actually think this amounts to your definitions of socialism and social democracy!

Socialism has a specific economic definition.

I don't have a problem with social democracy in a vacuum?

 

[pigeon]

Isn't populism just appealing to average voters?

Usually we just call that "running for office."

 

[RustyNails]

Whoa 72 is a crazy R number.

Yeah its absolutely insane. Almost a third of Republicans dont approve of their guy in office.

 

[kirblar]

Isn't populism just appealing to average voters?

NO.

I'd link wiki but I'm on mobile.

 

[B-Dubs]

Isn't populism just appealing to average voters?

If this were the case then everything would be populist.

 

[BoogieWoogie]

The evil witch of San Francisco has cast her spell. Nancy Beatrix Pelosi * will curse GA with her wicked spawn.



*Don't know her actual middle name but that is a good witch name.

Pelosi sends in death balloon to finish off righteous Conservatives. ITS SUPER EFFECTIVE

 

[whyamihere]

Socialism has a specific economic definition.

I don't have a problem with social democracy in a vacuum?

I think part of your problem is that your definition for socialism is like, a 1950s American view of socialism when that's not how it's really used in a 2017 scenario.

 

[Greigor The Fellhand]

Pelosi sends in death balloon to finish off righteous Conservatives. ITS SUPER EFFECTIVE

god gravity falls was such a good show.

 

[Valhelm]

Socialism has a specific economic definition.

I don't have a problem with social democracy in a vacuum?

How do you define socialism? I missed that part of our discussion.

Usually socialism means "worker ownership of industry", but in a strictly Marxist standpoint socialism means the abolition of private property and wage labor.

Bernie used socialism casually in ways that I believe were disingenuous.

 

[Bonen no Max'd]

It fell apart because of racism but it's worth noting that the alliance and fusion voting for poor white southern Populists and poor black southern Republicans in North Carolina was one of the most historically racially and economically progressive forces. The Populist party didn't really outlive its death because of racism, either, though in part that's because of the Democrats running Bryan for like 30 years straight.

 

[Fenderputty]

I think part of your problem is that your definition for socialism is like, a 1950s American view of socialism when that's not how it's really used in a 2017 scenario.

People in 2017 need a better education on what Socialism is then?

To be fair, when concepts like market socialism exist, the waters seems to be a lot less clear than what Kiblar suggests.

 

[TestOfTide]

Isn't populism just appealing to average voters?

What? WHAT? When did someone tell you that? That is NOT what populism means.


Populism does not simply mean "appealing to the average voters". Populism is about gaining influence and traction through statements and actions that get a fanbase all riled up in an almost (and sometimes past the point of almost) mob-like mentality.

Stuff like "Lets put an end to Wall Street" is populist, because even though it's not actually feasible policy to just end wall street, running on such a thing appeals to a lot of voters who will simply follow what-ever candidate is willing to say "Lets put an end to Wall Street".

Meanwhile to give a Trump example. Saying "We're gonna build a wall and Mexico is gonna pay for it" feeds off similar kinds of populism. It doesn't matter that the wall is not possible. It doesn't matter that the idea is racist. It doesn't matter that Mexico won't actually pay for it. None of that matters because that soundbite riles up the fanbase who were waiting for someone to say what they wanted to hear regardless of realism.