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[VPhys]

I'd hit it.

 

[The Librarian]

I'd hit it.

 

[Tim-E]

 

[The Librarian]

I'd hit both women in our respective avatars.

 

[Tim-E]

I'd hit both women in our respective avatars.

He hits women! The bastard!

 

[Hootie]

2 hours of Hardball = Double the opportunity for Matthews to own somebody.

 

[ViperVisor]

2 Hours of Hard Ball starts now.

Obama I wonder if she could tell I'm hard right now?

 

[Hitokage]

http://www.logicalfallacies.info/equivocation.html

Pretty blatant too.

 

[soul creator]

2 Hours of Hard Ball starts now.

Obama I wonder if she could tell I'm hard right now?

white house wife swapping ftw?

 

[PhoenixDark]

Amirox :lol

Picking a "fresh", inexperienced face would backfire more than picking a Washington "insider" - who actually isn't an insider. If he picked say Kaine people would complain about the youth and experience of the ticket. I would much rather have the media - because honestly they're the only people who'll complain about this - complaining about him picking an experienced, "old Washington insider" than have voters becoming even more worried about Obama's lack of experience

Biden is popular with the voters who will decide the election. He's going to secure Penn. and be very popular in Ohio and Michigan. There wasn't a better choice available. Obama said it best: he's spend decades bringing change to Washington, but Washington hasn't changed him. A Washington Insider does not shun the city to take a bus home and be with his family.

Picking Kaine or whatsherface-from-kansas would have merely made voters even more concerned with the ticket's lack of experience. If you think someone with less than a term's worth of experience as governor would be a good choice, whatever

 

[APF]

Pretty blatant too.

Agreed, there is a good amount of retroactive equivocation in arguing Obama GAFfers were really irrelevantly defending Obama's education when he was at the time being criticized for making comments that appeared socially out-of-touch. I'm glad you and Mandark agree with the comments I was making at time time, when most GAFfers were attacking me for having the gall to note the importance voters attach to having a sense of social connection to their President and the idea he understands their needs. Since clearly you agreed with me at the time, I'm obviously not calling either you or Mandark hypocrites; my comment was addressing the GAFfers whose argument changed 180 degrees the instant they found a suitable opening in their political opponent.

 

[Karma Kramer]

Amirox :lol

Picking a "fresh", inexperienced face would backfire more than picking a Washington "insider" - who actually isn't an insider. If he picked say Kaine people would complain about the youth and experience of the ticket. I would much rather have the media - because honestly they're the only people who'll complain about this - complaining about him picking an experienced, "old Washington insider" than have voters becoming even more worried about Obama's lack of experience

Biden is popular with the voters who will decide the election. He's going to secure Penn. and be very popular in Ohio and Michigan. There wasn't a better choice available. Obama said it best: he's spend decades bringing change to Washington, but Washington hasn't changed him. A Washington Insider does not shun the city to take a bus home and be with his family.

Picking Kaine or whatsherface-from-kansas would have merely made voters even more concerned with the ticket's lack of experience. If you think someone with less than a term's worth of experience as governor would be a good choice, whatever

Bravo... PD and I agree!

*high five*

 

[polyh3dron]

APF, the reason for this 180 is because Obama's followers have seen McCain's campaign attack Obama over the most trivial things possible, such as raising money for Chicago schools and being too popular. They're ready to shit on McCain for anything now, no matter how disingenuous, dishonest or petty it may be.

Any McCain supporters who cry over this and say "let's get back to the issues" are the biggest hypocrites the world has ever seen.

McCain's campaign has set the bar for the level of discourse, and now they're beginning to get a taste of their own medicine.

 

[APF]

APF, the reason for this 180 is because Obama's followers have seen McCain's campaign attack Obama over the most trivial things possible, such as raising money for Chicago schools and being too popular. They're ready to shit on McCain for anything now, no matter how disingenuous, dishonest or petty it may be.

Indeed!

 

[npm0925]

Biden is the non-evil, liberal equivalent of Dick Cheney. I can't see how it will be anything but a a landslide in November.

 

[~Devil Trigger~]

white house wife swapping ftw?

its all luv man, all luv

 

[Hitokage]

Agreed, there is a good amount of retroactive equivocation in arguing Obama GAFfers were really irrelevantly defending Obama's education when he was at the time being criticized for making comments that appeared socially out-of-touch. I'm glad you and Mandark agree with the comments I was making at time time, when most GAFfers were attacking me for having the gall to note the importance voters attach to having a sense of social connection to their President and the idea he understands their needs. Since clearly you agreed with me at the time, I'm obviously not calling either you or Mandark hypocrites; my comment was addressing the GAFfers whose argument changed 180 degrees the instant they found a suitable opening in their political opponent.

Posts like this are why I do not like you, sir.

 

[TDG]

Picking Kaine or whatsherface-from-kansas would have merely made voters even more concerned with the ticket's lack of experience. If you think someone with less than a term's worth of experience as governor would be a good choice, whatever

Exactly. Anyone who thought that the most important thing with this ticket was to keep the "change" message strong is out of their minds. The number one concern voters have with Obama is experience, and the place where that seems to be the biggest problem is the midwest. Obama couldn't have made a better pick.

 

[Tamanon]

People are going to see a black man on the ticket and that's probably enough change for them, any more and you're getting into uncertain territory!

 

[GhaleonEB]

Exactly. Anyone who thought that the most important thing with this ticket was to keep the "change" message strong is out of their minds. The number one concern voters have with Obama is experience, and the place where that seems to be the biggest problem is the midwest. Obama couldn't have made a better pick.

I'm slowly - slowly! - warming up to Biden.

The consensus I'm seeing out there is one of genuine enthusiasm from democrats, and trepidation from the GOP. That's a good sign that he made the right call.

 

[PhoenixDark]

btw Obama's introduction of Biden was beautiful. McCain's camp and try their bullshit "celebrity Paris-Britney 08" nonsense but today that strategy went out the window. Especially if/when McCain picks fucking Mitt Romney.

I almost jumped out my car when Biden said "these times require more than a good soldier, they require a wise leader." Bam. That's a fucking punch to the face, the same one Clark tried to land. Obama needed a fighter, someone who can go toe to toe with these jokers.

 

[Amir0x]

Amirox :lol

Picking a "fresh", inexperienced face would backfire more than picking a Washington "insider" - who actually isn't an insider. If he picked say Kaine people would complain about the youth and experience of the ticket. I would much rather have the media - because honestly they're the only people who'll complain about this - complaining about him picking an experienced, "old Washington insider" than have voters becoming even more worried about Obama's lack of experience

Biden is popular with the voters who will decide the election. He's going to secure Penn. and be very popular in Ohio and Michigan. There wasn't a better choice available. Obama said it best: he's spend decades bringing change to Washington, but Washington hasn't changed him. A Washington Insider does not shun the city to take a bus home and be with his family.

Picking Kaine or whatsherface-from-kansas would have merely made voters even more concerned with the ticket's lack of experience. If you think someone with less than a term's worth of experience as governor would be a good choice, whatever

I can understand your perspective (and for the purposes of this response, we'll ignore the fact there were many alternative VP picks who weren't also Washington virgins), but when you strip it down your essential argument about why he isn't a "Washington Insider" is that he goes home to his family at night. This is a character statement sure (as is his various personal tragedies) but it certainly does not imply he is somehow outside of the sphere of Washington influence or even close.

Personally, the political game is influenced one way or the other by the art of the visual... and Biden EVEN IF you felt he is not a Washington Insider (which he is), is still going to be perceived that way by a large amount of the population. The contrast serves ever larger because of what Obama ran on, and what many of his supporters believed was the case.

Bravo... PD and I agree!

*high five*

Note: You do not receive points for questioning what I said, then avoiding responding to it earlier in this topic, and then saddling yourself to someone whose opinion you can agree with.

 

[maximum360]

Amirox :lol

Picking a "fresh", inexperienced face would backfire more than picking a Washington "insider" - who actually isn't an insider. If he picked say Kaine people would complain about the youth and experience of the ticket. I would much rather have the media - because honestly they're the only people who'll complain about this - complaining about him picking an experienced, "old Washington insider" than have voters becoming even more worried about Obama's lack of experience

Biden is popular with the voters who will decide the election. He's going to secure Penn. and be very popular in Ohio and Michigan. There wasn't a better choice available. Obama said it best: he's spend decades bringing change to Washington, but Washington hasn't changed him. A Washington Insider does not shun the city to take a bus home and be with his family.

Picking Kaine or whatsherface-from-kansas would have merely made voters even more concerned with the ticket's lack of experience. If you think someone with less than a term's worth of experience as governor would be a good choice, whatever

This pretty much sums it up. When it comes to US elections these day, the media chooses the narrative and it's almost political suicide to go with someone they dislike. If Obama chose Kaine the media would have obsessed over Obama's 'lack of experience' and 'poor judgement' in choosing a VP from now until November. Studies have already shown that most of Obama's coverage in the media is negative already so there's no need to pile on. (Though to be fair, the AP has also made it clear that it doesn't matter who Obama chose that they'd go after him anyway.)

 

[polyh3dron]

btw Obama's introduction of Biden was beautiful. McCain's camp and try their bullshit "celebrity Paris-Britney 08" nonsense but today that strategy went out the window. Especially if/when McCain picks fucking Mitt Romney.

Right now my money is on Pawlenty. Every other guy has too many negatives.

 

[Amir0x]

also fyi

differences between the discussion of

1. thinking a VP is a good move strategically and will help Obama get elected
2. thinking a VP is a good candidate for the job itself, and would be a decent president "in worst case"

seems many can't tell the difference ITT

 

[thekad]

The PoliGAF hivemind has pushed me to almost liking Biden. Hold me, Ami!

 

[Hitokage]

3. thinking a VP is good because he meets the criteria Obama desired.

 

[Amir0x]

The PoliGAF hivemind has pushed me to almost liking Biden. Hold me, Ami!

haha. you should educate yourself on the man and form your own opinion, i am only sharing my viewpoint like everyone else

3. thinking a VP is good because he meets the criteria Obama desired.

This is basically 1 reworded. If the VP would help Obama get elected, he probably has the criteria he desires. I guess it also seeps into 2 a little, since this "criteria" may also be qualities that make a good VP.

 

[Tamanon]

Right now my money is on Pawlenty. Every other guy has too many negatives.

I dunno, Pawlenty is a pretty milquetoast candidate, he's basically a Republican Evan Bayh. I think he wouldn't play that well, especially on the trail/debate.

And it seems McCain is actually going to run a "Why didn't Obama pick Hillary?" ad.....that's strange.

 

[mj1108]

Story on the process for picking Biden...and interesting about Hillary.

Biden got Obama call during root canal

DENVER (AP) - Joe Biden got the call from Barack Obama while undergoing a root canal.

As he sat in a dental chair Thursday, Biden received word that Obama was on the line and interrupted the procedure to accept the presidential candidate's invitation to be his running mate.

It capped a six-week process of elimination that always pointed in Biden's direction even if the Delaware lawmaker couldn't believe he would actually be the pick.

The Democratic ticket, revealed Saturday in Springfield, Ill., began to form when Obama approached Biden in July and asked him if he'd consider being a contender for vice president, according to two Biden associates.

Biden said he would and submitted the requisite paperwork to the vetting committee, but was skeptical that it would ever happen. A longtime friend who requested anonymity to speak freely said Biden wouldn't allow himself to believe he was in serious consideration because his hopes and expectations had been beaten down so much by such a miserable showing in the Democratic presidential race.

In the end, it came down to Biden, Indiana Sen. Evan Bayh and Virginia Gov. Tim Kaine, said several people involved in the deliberations. Kansas Gov. Kathleen Sebelius also was a strong contender, but dropped out of contention as Obama focused on the other three.

Hillary Rodham Clinton, who ran so closely to Obama in the primary, was never seriously considered, said two officials involved with the search. She asked not to be vetted unless she was going to be picked, the two officials said, speaking on a condition of anonymity to describe the private discussions.

In the final days before the announcement Obama's staff only prepared for an announcement of Biden, Bayh or Kaine—and Obama had made his decision by Thursday and called them all that day to tell them their fate.

Obama campaign strategist David Axelrod described the search as "a long process but it always pointed in Biden's direction."

Illinois Sen. Dick Durbin said he talked with Obama about potential candidates three weeks ago on a campaign bus swing through Florida. They made pro-and-con sheets and speculated about how the candidates would respond to various scenarios.

"Many others were discussed but my impression was that those three a few weeks ago were really the centerpiece—Kaine, Bayh and Biden," Durbin said. He added that he didn't learn of the pick until Saturday morning, although he suspected which direction Obama was going.

Biden clearly was the leading contender by Wednesday night, when he told reporters staked outside his house, "I'm not the guy." Biden's associates said he knew at that point that he would probably be the pick, but said that because he hadn't gotten the word yet.

From all accounts, Biden told just a handful of close friends and family he was being considered. They included his wife, Jill; three children, Beau, Hunter and Ashley; sister and political adviser Valerie Biden Owens; and longtime Senate chief of staff Ted Kaufman.

Kaufman said Biden had genuine respect for Obama and that the two had hit it off immediately after Obama came to the Senate.

In Indiana, finalist Bayh finally could relax Saturday once the rest of the world knows what he had known for two days but couldn't repeat—even as a report of Obama-Bayh bumper stickers being printed fueled speculation he was the pick. Bayh said he had to keep quiet as friends called to congratulate him Friday.

He said he told his wife, "We made the final three in a competition where they don't give out silver and bronze medals."

And he said he's asked his staff to track down some of those bumper stickers for his scrapbook.

 

[The Librarian]

Story on the process for picking Biden...and interesting about Hillary.

Biden got Obama call during root canal

Hm. I wonder what made Obama choose Biden over Bayh and Kaine.

Edit: But it doesn't matter, Obama made a good pick, and (we will see) most likely the best one.

 

[Amir0x]

ARTICLE QUOTE: She asked not to be vetted unless she was going to be picked

That is so bizarre. You have to be vetted before you can know if the person is a good pick. Basically she was asking for a huge leap of faith if true!

 

[polyh3dron]

also fyi

differences between the discussion of

1. thinking a VP is a good move strategically and will help Obama get elected
2. thinking a VP is a good candidate for the job itself, and would be a decent president "in worst case"

seems many can't tell the difference ITT

No, it's just that many people in here apparently see number one being more important than number two.

Biden definitely falls under the number one category, but what negatives does he bring to the number 2 part? He's not a wheeling and dealing washington insider who's in the pockets of Corporate America or anything. And it's not like Obama is some pushover who will let Biden take over the White House like our sitting president is.

Also: Wow @ the Hillary vetting thing. Idiot.

 

[Hitokage]

This is basically 1 reworded. If the VP would help Obama get elected, he probably has the criteria he desires. I guess it also seeps into 2 a little, since this "criteria" may also be qualities that make a good VP.

Mind you, I posted that knowing much of Obama's criteria, and knowing that Obama wasn't looking for just an election boost.

 

[Tamanon]

That is so bizarre. You have to be vetted before you can know if the person is a good pick. Basically she was asking for a huge leap of faith if true!

Basically she was saying "I don't want to be VP", there's no way you add a Veep without vetting them, especially one that has a ton of stuff not disclosed from the post-Bill years. Theoretically....this should slow down some of the Hillary strife being ran on the news? I doubt it though.

Oddly enough, the more influential divisive faction in the RNC is getting no airtime whatsoever.

 

[mj1108]

Basically she was saying "I don't want to be VP", there's no way you add a Veep without vetting them, especially one that has a ton of stuff not disclosed from the post-Bill years. Theoretically....this should slow down some of the Hillary strife being ran on the news? I doubt it though.

Oddly enough, the more influential divisive faction in the RNC is getting no airtime whatsoever.

You'd think it would slowdown the Hillary strife, but it won't since I'm willing to bet they won't even mention that little tidbit.

 

[Amir0x]

No, it's just that many people in here apparently see number one being more important than number two.

Not really because there have been a few occasions in this thread already where people have specifically confused the two, and have thus continued a point that was not related to the one I was arguing. That's why I mentioned it.

In any event, thinking one is more important is also a valid point. I'm sure number one is more important actually, but it's impossible to not think number two is also big.

 

[Tyrone Slothrop]

isn't obama himself a "washington insider"? the man's a state senator

it's not like he's the incumbent chairman of the colgate cavity patrol

 

[thefro]

I dunno, Pawlenty is a pretty milquetoast candidate, he's basically a Republican Evan Bayh. I think he wouldn't play that well, especially on the trail/debate.

Bayh's at least really popular in Indiana. Pawlenty barely polls over 50% as Governor in approval rating.

http://www.surveyusa.com/client/PollReport.aspx?g=74d936b6-f238-4990-bd14-8df2b1cde73a

 

[maximum360]

The PoliGAF hivemind has pushed me to almost liking Biden. Hold me, Ami!

:lol

Ok. Biden seems to have an ego and likes to hear himself talk (some say Obama is like this as well) but he also seems pretty down to earth as well. He's the anti-Bush: the guy you can have a beer with but who's not of limited IQ. He might also get easily wound up and might have an itchy trigger finger but I think he's conceded the mistake he made voting for the war and that may play a huge factor in making similar decisions in the future.

 

[Tamanon]

Biden seems like the guy you'd want to have a couple pitchers with, not just a beer.

 

[Amir0x]

isn't obama himself a "washing insider"? the man's a state senator

it's not like he's the incumbent chairman of the colgate cavity patrol

I don't think there's any mandated definition of "Washington Insider", so there is room for interpretation. The general one seems to be...

1. Has spent some indeterminate "long period" in Washington
2. Has allowed himself to become influenced/changed by the political game in Washington, implication being negatively.

I'd add makes decisions based on political expediency, but this is all debatable since there is no set definition.

He's the anti-Bush: the guy you can have a beer with but who's not of limited IQ.

True fact: A majority of voters thought Bush was more authentic, and thought he'd be better to have a beer with than his opponent.

This was actually one of his pluses at the time, his reported "realness." I don't think these voters also thought he was dumb.

 

[Karma Kramer]

Note: You do not receive points for questioning what I said, then avoiding responding to it earlier in this topic, and then saddling yourself to someone whose opinion you can agree with.

Points? What is this debate club?

You are seriously acting ridiculous right now. Its hard for me to even wrap my head around your posts. Thats why I haven't been responding... I simply don't know what to say.

 

[KRS7]

I really don't know what to think of Biden. I have to say I have a completely neutral position on him. I didn't start supporting Obama until I learned a lot more about him. I didn't even pay attention to this election until after Iowa. But honestly, like most Americans, the VP pick is not too important to me. Over the next several weeks we will see if he was the right choice. He does seem qualified and has a ton of experience, which I think is a good complement to Obama.

 

[maximum360]

True fact: A majority of voters thought Bush was more authentic, and thought he'd be better to have a beer with than his opponent.

This was actually one of his pluses at the time, his reported "realness." I don't think these voters also thought he was dumb.

That's exactly why I said Biden fits that bill well for the "realness" factor anyway. Choosing Bush was just terrible judgement for America. Too bad, most of America didn't factor Bush's IQ in the equation (which was more than obvious in the debates with Kerry). The guy is more interested in baseball stats than governing pretty much tells you that he isn't the backbone of the operation in the Whitehouse.

 

[xs_mini_neo]

Where do you think Hillary got the "the presidency isn't meant to be on the job training" spiel?

From everyone who watched the Bush train wreck, of course. Where have you been the last eight years?

Isn't Biden the one who made the infamous "he's clean/fresh" remark?

 

[PhoenixDark]

Hillary Rodham Clinton, who ran so closely to Obama in the primary, was never seriously considered, said two officials involved with the search. She asked not to be vetted unless she was going to be picked, the two officials said, speaking on a condition of anonymity to describe the private discussions.

Fuck, next time I go crazy over a story that we might not have all the info/details on...CALL ME OUT.

 

[Amir0x]

Points? What is this debate club?

You are seriously acting ridiculous right now. Its hard for me to even wrap my head around your posts. Thats why I haven't been responding... I simply don't know what to say.

Absolutely not. It's simply disingenuous to pretend earlier in the thread you didn't understand what I was saying - in some lame attempt to act like it was somehow outrageous - and then latch onto someone who made an argument in your place.

If you call someone's posts out, you should always have a reason and be able to articulate it. It is intellectually dishonest to act nonplussed about a statement and then fail to respond with reasons why, and later on fist pump when someone isn't lazy and does your "job" for you.

Bush's IQ

It's not like he's a "retard." His IQ is stated to be slightly above average, actually.

 

[The Librarian]

Richardson up next on Hardball.

 

[Tamanon]

Fuck, next time I go crazy over a story that we might not have all the info/details on...CALL ME OUT.

Now that I think about it, didn't we hear this way back when Obama first clinched? That the Clinton camp was refusing to open up their library records for vetting?