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PoliGAF Interim Thread of USA General Elections (DAWN OF THE VEEP)

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S

scorcho

testicles on a cold fall morning
speculawyer said:
That was good over seas funding . . . they paid for it. The current funding is all borrowed, that is what sucks. We are going in massive debt to a communist nation.
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there's an argument that all the US is greasing the global economic wheels by stepping in and taking advantage of the net saving surplus in the Asian countries.

http://www.bis.org/review/r050318d.pdf
 
G

Gaborn

Member
icarus-daedelus said:
you say that citizens were not doing it for free one sentence and the very next sentence you don't question where the US government got the money to pay them

Jesus.
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Not contradictory at all. The US government had too much money of too little worth at the time, inflation was the issue more than funding. The war in Europe provided incentive for entrepreneurs to start factories which increased the size of the economy and pumped up the worth of US currency, which enabled the government to afford contracts with their money now worth something. You do understand the more money in circulation (and there was a HUGE amount of it "thanks" to disastrous federal reserve monetary policy) the less the money is worth, but the larger the economy the more the money is worth because there's more demand and more utility for each of those dollars, right?

The discussion was started with Mandark saying "BOO-YAH!" because the Federal Government used expansionary fiscal policy (Keynesian policy) to get the US out of the Great Depression by injecting money into the economy (creating manufacturing jobs, much?) to fund the war, which could include Lend Lease if you look at it from whatever perspective you're looking at it from. I thought your opposition was that you didn't think USG was responsible for it, because that doesn't fit your ideology and therefore couldn't have possibly happened.
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No, the problem is that that's NOT what happened. The federal government got us into the great depression with their horrific expansion of the money supply, the smoot-hawley tariff exacerbated the situation, and if you look at the first 2 terms of FDR the situation was actually getting slightly WORSE. With WW2 the economy was finally able to expand sufficiently that Keynesian inflationary policy was offset.

thekad said:
So wait, a government program (an interventionist one, at that!) pulled America out of the Great Depression? Are you sure you want to stick with that?
Click to expand...

Yes and no, remember libertarians would generally say we should be friendly with all people and trade with everyone. It's not unheard of to believe giving some money or good to a country in a gesture of good will will have greater long term benefits for you, and obviously WW2 justified our involvement the moment Japan attacked us (we wouldn't have been justified in attacking Germany except they declared war on us).
 
S

syllogism

Member
reilo said:
McCain and GOP raised $95mil in June?

Dammit America!
Click to expand...
No, I'm pretty sure it means they ended with 95m in cash on hand. Mccain had $31.5 million in cash on hand after May and RNC presumably something like 40M. They probably didn't spend much in June.
 
S

scorcho

testicles on a cold fall morning
soo....the Great Depression wasn't caused by the utter failure of unregulated markets, but...the 'horrific expansion of the money supply'?

is libertarianism the new code for revisionism?
 
M

maynerd

Banned
reilo said:
McCain and GOP raised $95mil in June?

Dammit America!
Click to expand...

2z3p4q1_th.gif
 
D

Deus Ex Machina

Member
PHOTOS: CAROLINE KENNEDY joins BARACK OBAMA, HILLARY CLINTON for NYC Fundraiser last night

capt.337f494542ff446f993f2ea23b80f8b1.obama_2008_dcjh114.jpg

Democratic presidential candidate Sen. Barack Obama, D-Ill., talks to Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton, D-N.Y., on his campaign charter, Wednesday, July 9, 2008, in Washington.
(AP Photo/Jae C. Hong)

capt.5f790ad8f35146e3b054d205d5d24532.obama_2008_nysw111.jpg

Caroline Kennedy introduces Democratic presidential candidate, Sen. Barack Obama, D-Ill., at a fundraiser in New York, Wednesday, July 9, 2008.
(AP Photo/Seth Wenig)

capt.bb96460ec7df4b1faf41e97cf17ad9bf.obama_2008_nysw108.jpg

Democratic presidential candidate, Sen. Barack Obama, D-Ill., speaks at a fundraiser in New York, Wednesday, July 9, 2008. (AP Photo/Seth Wenig)

capt.722e7851208745ee9e8f225d1fdf1136.obama_2008_nyjh108.jpg

Democratic presidential candidate, Sen. Barack Obama, D-Ill., right, greets supporters after a fundraiser in New York, Wednesday, July 9, 2008.
(AP Photo/Jae C. Hong)

And, earlier in on Capitol Hill...
capt.6a2e27c7173d46df8bcf8554b3583625.obama_2008_dcjh112.jpg

Democratic presidential candidate Sen. Barack Obama, D-Ill., center, poses for photos with Senate interns, Wednesday, July 9, 2008, on Capitol Hill in Washington.
(AP Photo/Jae C. Hong)
 
R

reilo

learning some important life lessons from magical Negroes
scorcho said:
soo....the Great Depression wasn't caused by the utter failure of unregulated markets, but...the 'horrific expansion of the money supply'?

is libertarianism the new code for revisionism?
Click to expand...

It's funny reading on some other forums how people opposed to the recent bill that kept Medicare/Medicaid funding the same, and say that it is too much burden on our tax dollars... and yet support the damn Iraq war and say it should continue.
 
U

User 10639

Member
Gaborn said:
bla bla bla
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FDR/Congress essentially gave Britain materiel by letting them "borrow" warships and such, but really, what's the value of a warship when it's been blown up from fighting? I still don't understand what Lend Lease has to do with invigorating the economy, considering Britain wasn't buying a damn thing from the US (and therefore giving no incentive to entrepreneurs) at the time. That's why FDR wanted to give them help, chum.

scorcho said:
is libertarianism the new code for revisionism?
Click to expand...
Quite possibly. In fact, apparently Gaborn was talking about Lend Lease the whole time now, which is revisionism on the much smaller scale of the internets.
 
H

Hitokage

Setec Astronomer
scorcho said:
soo....the Great Depression wasn't caused by the utter failure of unregulated markets, but...the 'horrific expansion of the money supply'?
Click to expand...
Now now, you also have to throw in high wealth disparity and the false prosperity projected by it.
 
M

Mandark

Small balls, big fun!
Gaborn said:
Not contradictory at all. The US government had too much money of too little worth at the time, inflation was the issue more than funding. The war in Europe provided incentive for entrepreneurs to start factories which increased the size of the economy and pumped up the worth of US currency, which enabled the government to afford contracts with their money now worth something.
Click to expand...

What does this even mean!? Stop talking gibberish!
 
J

JayDubya

Banned
reilo said:
It's funny reading on some other forums how people opposed to the recent bill that kept Medicare/Medicaid funding the same, and say that it is too much burden on our tax dollars... and yet support the damn Iraq war and say it should continue.
Click to expand...
So if I oppose Medicare / Medicaid funding AND the Iraq War do I get a cookie?
 
R

reilo

learning some important life lessons from magical Negroes
Hitokage said:
Now now, you also have to throw in high wealth disparity and the false prosperity projected by it.
Click to expand...

Well, we all know all of the rich people during the great depression shared their wealth with all of the people beneath them and saved the country, right?

JayDubya said:
So if I oppose Medicare / Medicaid funding AND the Iraq War do I get a cookie?
Click to expand...

Only if you provide a viable alternative for Medicare/Medicaid instead of just throwing out "the free market will fix it" ad nauseum.
 
M

Mandark

Small balls, big fun!
thekad: FDR didn't do much of anything after the war, hint hint. But it's true that the government only adopted temporary deficit spending during the war, after working to balance the budget through the 30's.



Gaborn: You're crazy and wrong. There was deflation in the early 30's, and then inflation starting around 1942.

The US government couldn't suddenly "afford contracts" because the dollar was worth more during the war, cause it wasn't. Hell, it couldn't afford those contracts anyway, because it borrowed massive amounts of money to pay for them.

Or do we have to explain that one again?
 
R

reilo

learning some important life lessons from magical Negroes
Mandark said:
thekad: FDR didn't do much of anything after the war, hint hint. But it's true that the government only adopted temporary deficit spending during the war, after working to balance the budget through the 30's.



Gaborn: You're crazy and wrong. There was deflation in the early 30's, and then inflation starting around 1942.

The US government couldn't suddenly "afford contracts" because the dollar was worth more during the war, cause it wasn't. Hell, it couldn't afford those contracts anyway, because it borrowed massive amounts of money to pay for them.

Or do we have to explain that one again?
Click to expand...

Can you just, come up with one grandiose post that explains it all, and whenever Gabron opens his mouth about the Great Depression and FDR policies leading up-to and during WWII, you can just repaste it over and over again? Maybe he will understand it the more times he reads it. You know, kind of like trigonometry and calculus - the more you practice and see it, the better you understand it?
 
B

bob_arctor

Tough_Smooth
Shirokun said:
Holy crap if real! Whether it's McCain or Obama, January can't come soon enough!
Click to expand...

The American leader, who has been condemned throughout his presidency for failing to tackle climate change, ended a private meeting with the words: "Goodbye from the world's biggest polluter."

He then punched the air while grinning widely, as the rest of those present including Gordon Brown and Nicolas Sarkozy looked on in shock.

Mr Bush, whose second and final term as President ends at the end of the year, then left the meeting at the Windsor Hotel in Hokkaido where the leaders of the world's richest nations had been discussing new targets to cut carbon emissions.
Click to expand...

:lol :lol Has to be fake. Has to be. Otherwise the Onion's no match for reality.
 
R

reilo

learning some important life lessons from magical Negroes
Oh no.

A failed terrorist attack by Turkish nationals on the US Embassy in Turkey. The Turkish government are claiming that Al Qeada might be behind this.

Also, Patrius has been nominated to a higher post.
 
S

scorcho

testicles on a cold fall morning
reilo said:
Can you just, come up with one grandiose post that explains it all, and whenever Gabron opens his mouth about the Great Depression and FDR policies leading up-to and during WWII, you can just repaste it over and over again? Maybe he will understand it the more times he reads it. You know, kind of like trigonometry and calculus - the more you practice and see it, the better you understand it?
Click to expand...
its the seismic battle between Friedman and Keynes; Monetarists and Realists; Evil and Good.
 
I

Incognito

Troll
reilo said:
Oh no.

A failed terrorist attack by Turkish nationals on the US Embassy in Turkey. The Turkish government are claiming that Al Qeada might be behind this.

Also, Paterius has been nominated to a higher post.
Click to expand...

Now we'll really get to see McCain in his element! Perhaps he'll burnish his credentials by telling Al Qaida to "cut the bullshit!" :lol
 
I

Incognito

Troll
McCain’s campaign has outspent Obama’s on advertising by almost 3:1 over the last two months.
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Doesn't bode well for McCain. He's treading water as it stands and Obama's campaign is out there balls to the walls organizing and registering voters. That 3:1 discrepancy sure won't last and when Obama starts saturating the TeeVee with ads....
 
G

Gaborn

Member
scorcho said:
soo....the Great Depression wasn't caused by the utter failure of unregulated markets, but...the 'horrific expansion of the money supply'?

is libertarianism the new code for revisionism?
Click to expand...

Unregulated markets? You don't know what the money supply is, do you? You HAVE heard of the federal reserve at least? The markets were hardly "unregulated" at the time, and it was the way they were regulated and mismanaged by the government that caused the great depression.

Icarus - it wasn't the transfer of materiel to the allies, it was the fact that workers were being paid to manufacture so much materiel. Creating a large number of jobs to help with a war effort is going to do a lot for any economy.
 
R

reilo

learning some important life lessons from magical Negroes
Mandark, you're on.

Everyone, stay out of his way or you will get hurt in the cross fire.
 
G

GhaleonEB

Member
Incognito said:
Doesn't bode well for McCain. He's treading water as it stands and Obama's campaign is out there balls to the walls organizing and registering voters. That 3:1 discrepancy sure won't last and when Obama starts saturating the TeeVee with ads....
Click to expand...
I stitched together the cash on hand from a few reports. McCain's dropped in June by $3m, while the RNC packed it away, increasing by $13m.

Going from the report in Missouri that Obma is going to have several times the paid staff and field offices than McCain, I wonder if he's willing to cede some of the advertising war and is shifting more of his resources to the ground game.
 
S

scorcho

testicles on a cold fall morning
Gaborn said:
Unregulated markets? You don't know what the money supply is, do you? You HAVE heard of the federal reserve at least? The markets were hardly "unregulated" at the time, and it was the way they were regulated and mismanaged by the government that caused the great depression.
Click to expand...
[looks up at his post linking to Bernake's speech]

no i have never heard of the Federal Reserve, what it does, or if it even exists. i will now claim your tactic by denying your reality and substituting in my own.
 
M

Mandark

Small balls, big fun!
Gaborn said:
Icarus - it wasn't the transfer of materiel to the allies, it was the fact that workers were being paid to manufacture so much materiel. Creating a large number of jobs to help with a war effort is going to do a lot for any economy.
Click to expand...

You realize you're just endorsing Keynesian expansionary spending during recessions, right? The government spends more money than it takes in through taxes in order to kick the economy into a virtuous cycle.

Also, you're so completely wrong about the role of inflation. It's almost impressive.
 
U

User 10639

Member
Gaborn said:
Icarus - it wasn't the transfer of materiel to the allies, it was the fact that workers were being paid to manufacture so much materiel.
Click to expand...
Being paid... by the US government. (look up lend lease - it was pretty much Congress giving Britain warships because FDR wanted to help the Brits out cause, uh, they couldn't buy warships. which means the money to pay for them was borrowed by the federal government)

Creating a large number of jobs to help with a war effort is going to do a lot for any economy.
Click to expand...
You know what? You either don't listen or you just consistently miss the point entirely, even (especially) when you yourself make that point.
 
B

BenjaminBirdie

Banned
GhaleonEB said:
I stitched together the cash on hand from a few reports. McCain's dropped in June by $3m, while the RNC packed it away, increasing by $13m.

Going from the report in Missouri that Obma is going to have several times the paid staff and field offices than McCain, I wonder if he's willing to cede some of the advertising war and is shifting more of his resources to the ground game.
Click to expand...

It wouldn't surprise me. I'm sure he knows that's how and where he won the nomination.
 
G

Gaborn

Member
scorcho said:
[looks up at his post linking to Bernake's speech]

no i have never heard of the Federal Reserve, what it does, or if it even exists. i will now claim your tactic by denying your reality and substituting in my own.
Click to expand...

Ok, fair enough, but considering the fed's vast expansion of the money supply leading up to the great depression I can't see how you're talking about an "unregulated market." and then, of course, after the stock market crash and when things were just starting to get bad it really didn't help matters that Smoot-Hawley was passed providing another major tariff (well, THE major tariff, the tariff of tariffs if you will) which essentially destroyed the US trade market overseas further delaying and defraying any chance of a recovery in the short term.

icarus-daedalus said:
Being paid... by the US government. (look up lend lease - it was pretty much Congress giving Britain warships because FDR wanted to help the Brits out cause, uh, they couldn't buy warships. which means the money to pay for them was borrowed by the federal government)
Click to expand...

Ok, fair enough, but it wasn't the lending of materiel that led to the recovery, it was the start up of the factories to build the materiel. I don't see how the government spending money affects anything, even in the most libertarian of societies we'd still have the government spending SOME money, you do know the libertarian party supports having a military (and a substantial number of arms were laid away for when the US got into WW2, something that was considered inevitable for a couple years before Pearl Harbor was attacked), right?
 
R

reilo

learning some important life lessons from magical Negroes
I thought liberterians would just build a huge bubble dome that is impenetrable by any sort of modern warfare, thus, requiring no need for a military.
 
U

User 10639

Member
Gaborn said:
Ok, fair enough, but it wasn't the lending of materiel that led to the recovery, it was the start up of the factories to build the materiel.
Click to expand...
Aaaaand the Federal Government was still the one making the materiel or building the factories or what have you, which necessitates spending on the part of the government, so, pardon my French, what the fuck is your point?

I don't see how the government spending money affects anything, even in the most libertarian of societies we'd still have the government spending SOME money, you do know the libertarian party supports having a military (and a substantial number of arms were laid away for when the US got into WW2, something that was considered inevitable for a couple years before Pearl Harbor was attacked), right?
Click to expand...
Oh, so now you're completely changing what you're saying to protect your ideology? haha, I should have ignored you from the get go.


Also, in the most libertarian of societies we wouldn't be giving boats to the Brits in the first place, unless Milton Friedman was excessively fond of Winston Churchill or something, but I won't press that point too much.
 
G

Gaborn

Member
Mandark said:
You realize you're just endorsing Keynesian expansionary spending during recessions, right? The government spends more money than it takes in through taxes in order to kick the economy into a virtuous cycle.

Also, you're so completely wrong about the role of inflation. It's almost impressive.
Click to expand...

Actually, I found their inflation calculator more useful.. From the start of the federal reserve in 1913 (though the dates there only go to 1914 unfortunately) inflation was 73%. That's the highest rate of inflation over a 15 year span in our nation's history.

icarus-daedelus said:
Aaaaand the Federal Government was still the one making the materiel or building the factories or what have you, which necessitates spending on the part of the government, so, pardon my French, what the fuck is your point?



Oh, so now you're completely changing what you're saying to protect your ideology? haha, I should have ignored you from the get go.
Click to expand...

Where have I flipped? I never said military spending wasn't a legitimate function of government, but the economic expansion that results from building up a war machine saved us from the great depression, not FDR's other policies.

Also, in the most libertarian of societies we wouldn't be giving boats to the Brits in the first place, unless Milton Friedman was excessively fond of Winston Churchill or something, but I won't press that point too much.
Click to expand...

That's not necessarily true, we'd probably more clearly make it loans rather than "giving" them things, but it could very well be seen in our rational interest to keep Britain and the rest free from Nazi rule, more competition in the market is good.
 
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