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[Gaborn]

1913?

From the federal reserve's creation in 1913 up to the stock market crash the money supply substantially increased, yes. You don't think an economy collapses over night, do you? Seriously?

 

[Frank the Great]

From the federal reserve's creation in 1913 up to the stock market crash the money supply substantially increased, yes. You don't think an economy collapses over night, do you? Seriously?

What happened before the Fed was created? In fact, why was it created?

Just wondering.

 

[User 10639]

Where have I flipped? I never said military spending wasn't a legitimate function of government, but the economic expansion that results from building up a war machine saved us from the great depression, not FDR's other policies.

You flipped because nobody was defending FDR's other policies, ever in this whole thread? Just the ones in the 1940s? Duh?

That's not necessarily true, we'd probably more clearly make it loans rather than "giving" them things, but it could very well be seen in our rational interest to keep Britain and the rest free from Nazi rule, more competition in the market is good.

Britain didn't need loans, or they would have borrowed shit from someone else already.

 

[reilo]

From the federal reserve's creation in 1913 up to the stock market crash the money supply substantially increased, yes. You don't think an economy collapses over night, do you? Seriously?

No, I'm just curious why you go back so far to 1913, considering there was that, you know, World War between 1914-1918, which surely couldn't have had anything to do with inflation?

The economy won't collapse over night, but it sure as hell wouldn't take 15 years, either.

 

[Gaborn]

You flipped because nobody was defending FDR's other policies, ever in this whole thread? Just the ones in the 1940s? Duh?

I don't see how that is a flip. I said that the US's intervention into the US economy with the federal reserve was a MAJOR factor in causing the great depression, and I said I believe WW2 pulled us out of the great depression more than anything FDR did by himself. In other words, without WW2 we may have remained largely mired in the great depression throughout his term.

Britain didn't need loans, or they would have borrowed shit from someone else already.

Ok, then they'd have to borrow it from someone else, I don't see how that effects anything, they wouldn't HAVE to accept materiel from us at all. (if they refused that would ultimately mean less to us because we'd still be stockpiling arms for if/when we got involved in WW2)

Reilo - The reason I go back that far is because that's when I believe the decline really started, that led ultimately to the roaring twenties and conspicuous consumption (more money = more spending by consumers, even beyond their means in many cases) and ultimately was a major factor in what led to the great depression. That's an EXCELLENT point about WW1 though, I admit I had not specifically considered it, although I will say that it probably delayed the inevitable crash by helping to expand the economy during that period, it ultimately was clearly not enough to overcome the expansion of the money supply and rampant inflation. (though we didn't get involved until 1917 anyway)

 

[User 10639]

I don't see how that is a flip. I said that the US's intervention into the US economy with the federal reserve was a MAJOR factor in causing the great depression, and I said I believe WW2 pulled us out of the great depression more than anything FDR did by himself. In other words, without WW2 we may have remained largely mired in the great depression throughout his term.

No, you were arguing just a page ago that lend-lease, which was a policy where Congress (at the behest of good ol' Franklin) literally just gave shit to Britain to throw at the Germans, was part of the reason why the US economy was pulled out of its decline.

Also, the US Government was borrowing (!) a ton of money to pay for WWII. That's where this whole conversation started, like, 20 pages ago when you were still wrong, but back then you were arguing that they weren't borrowing the money at all just because they didn't get it from Europe.

Ok, then they'd have to borrow it from someone else, I don't see how that effects anything, they wouldn't HAVE to accept materiel from us at all. (if they refused that would ultimately mean less to us because we'd still be stockpiling arms for if/when we got involved in WW2)

Oh god, please stop derailing this into what your hypothetical libertarian utopia (libertopia!) would do. I don't give a shit.

 

[Mandark]

Not contradictory at all. The US government had too much money of too little worth at the time, inflation was the issue more than funding. The war in Europe provided incentive for entrepreneurs to start factories which increased the size of the economy and pumped up the worth of US currency, which enabled the government to afford contracts with their money now worth something. You do understand the more money in circulation (and there was a HUGE amount of it "thanks" to disastrous federal reserve monetary policy) the less the money is worth, but the larger the economy the more the money is worth because there's more demand and more utility for each of those dollars, right.

Look what you wrote.

Look at the stats.

The war did NOT increase the value of US currency.

Your central argument is factually wrong. You should maybe address this.


Also, when you say WW2 saved the US economy, what you have to mean is that US government spending, financed by borrowed money, is what saved the US economy. I'm trying to make this as simple as possible for you.



edit: According to the Westegg inflation calculator, 1904-1919 had a higher rate of inflation over a 15 year period. As did 05-20, 06-21, 07-22. Maybe it's because the few years during WWI had very high inflation, eh?

 

[JayDubya]

In other words, without WW2 we may have remained largely mired in the great depression throughout his term.

I'm not sure whether they're making bad assumptions or you're using bad wording, and this argument has gone on for a while.

However, I suppose I'd mostly have to agree with the fairly vague statement of "WW2 helped get us out of the GD," something something "wartime economy" or another.

Obvious counterpoints:
a) it would be nice if we didn't have a Federal Reserve to so royally fuck things up and get us into the GD in the first place
b) it's not as if the feel-good policies of a certain socialistic warmongering asshole president were doing much to bring the GD to an end and may have even extended it
c) Ends vs. means; strictly speaking, was the saber-rattling at the Japanese and the resultant military involvement neccessary to end the GD?

 

[GhaleonEB]

I interrupt today's libertarian argument to post news of Obama's ground game in Iowa (my home state):

According to reports filed the Federal Election Commission on June 20, the Republican Party of Iowa had only seven salaried employees on staff, compared to 28 for the state Democrats (however, many of those employees were reassigned to work strictly for the Obama campaign). Since those reports were filed, the GOP announced the hiring of Nathan Treloar to serve as the state party's communications director.

State filings paint a more ominous picture. According to expenditure reports filed with the Iowa Ethics and Campaign Disclosure Board, as of May 20 the Republican Party of Iowa had no paid staff focusing exclusively on state races, while the Iowa Democratic Party had an additional 27 salaried employees.

http://iowaindependent.com/showDiary.do?diaryId=2571

I really think these kind of ground operations and voter registration drives will make the difference in a lot of states. It's interesting watching the pieces of Obama's 50-state strategy fall into place.

Gaborn, back to you.

 

[Mandark]

JD: Don't take this the wrong way, but seems to me you haven't read anything about economics qua economics. You have a moral philosophy and when you found out there was an economic school of thought that supported this philosophy you jumped on board.

Is that pretty much right?

 

[tanod]

Obama is taking Gramm's comments and bundling them with McCain's today. I was hoping he'd do this.

http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2008/07/10/1192723.aspx

God damn, that's an awesome and clean hit.

 

[artredis1980]

Chuck Todd: Electoral Map is slowly shifting towards Obama

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/07/10/chuck-todd-electoral-map_n_111899.html

A month ago, NBC's electoral map showed an exact tie between Obama and McCain -- including 'base' and 'lean' states, each had 200 electoral votes. But on this month's map, Obama has opened up a 210-189 lead over McCain, with 139 electoral votes in the toss-up column. Watch Chuck Todd explain:


Video in link

 

[reilo]

Quick question:

Where did those entrepreneurs and the government itself get the funds to build those factories pre-WWII?

 

[maximum360]

Ruh Roh,some guy is mad at Obama for supporting the FISA bill.

CNN is trying desperately to keep it alive claiming that now it makes Obama seem more like Bush and this makes Obama a blatant flip-flopper. Let's just completely ignore McCain's acting like a fish out of water.

 

[tanod]

Quick question:

Where did those entrepreneurs and the government itself get the funds to build those factories pre-WWII?

Responsible fiscal policy.

 

[Kusagari]

The news stations have to do something because every single poll seems to be showing Obama dominating more.

 

[Gaborn]

No, you were arguing just a page ago that lend-lease, which was a policy where Congress (at the behest of good ol' Franklin) literally just gave shit to Britain to throw at the Germans, was part of the reason why the US economy was pulled out of its decline.

actually you interpreted that when I mentioned that it was the economic expansion WW2 and it's build up that led to us getting out of the great depression, and I didn't disabuse you of that notion.

Also, the US Government was borrowing (!) a ton of money to pay for WWII. That's where this whole conversation started, like, 20 pages ago when you were still wrong, but back then you were arguing that they weren't borrowing the money at all just because they didn't get it from Europe.

Ok, as I said that was due to a misunderstanding in the... well, early early early morning when I wasn't thinking clearly, I've conceded the US used war bonds to pay for some of their expenses. That's certainly a good way to do that in the short term since no one has to buy them.

Oh god, please stop derailing this into what your hypothetical libertarian utopia (libertopia!) would do. I don't give a shit.

You brought it up so aren't you bitching about your own derailing this into it?

 

[User 10639]

actually you interpreted that when I mentioned that it was the economic expansion WW2 and it's build up that led to us getting out of the great depression, and I didn't disabuse you of that notion.

Not only did you not disabuse me of it, whatever that means, you tried to backpedal and make it like you were talking about lend-lease in the first place.

But you are incapable of listening to what you're actually saying, so I'm not really sure why I'm replying anymore at this point.

edit: no I didn't?

 

[artredis1980]

Thank God for Clinton, if it wasnt for her, the Obama campaign would be scrambling against these negative made up stories.

 

[GhaleonEB]

God damn, that's an awesome and clean hit.

His delivery was even better.

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/203545.php

 

[bob_arctor]

His delivery was even better.

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/203545.php

Back in Michigan on Thursday, McCain tried to counter the criticism from Obama, arguing that the Democrat opposes offshore drilling and nuclear power to try to solve energy woes. "You talk about Dr. Phil, he is Dr. No on energy," McCain said.

What an entirely contemporary reference! And witty to boot! Excuse me while I cringe...

 

[Gaborn]

Not only did you not disabuse me of it, whatever that means, you tried to backpedal and make it like you were talking about lend-lease in the first place.

But you are incapable of listening to what you're actually saying, so I'm not really sure why I'm replying anymore at this point.

edit: no I didn't?

As I said, I never mentioned Lend Lease, you did. I've been consistent my view is that broadly the US got out of the great depression thanks to external events, mainly world war 2, rather than any particular policy.

 

[User 10639]

As I said, I never mentioned Lend Lease, you did. I've been consistent my view is that broadly the US got out of the great depression thanks to external events, mainly world war 2, rather than any particular policy.

And the US policy towards WWII once we got innit was one of expansionary Keynesian fiscal policy.

My point, btw, was that you brought up what libertopia would do, not I. You can backpedal on everything you post, but don't hang your nonsense on me, son.

 

[artredis1980]

wow. communicating really works. CNN had not carried this phil story all day until 1, so i emailed them in the news hint section and told them to run this story as it was controversial, i got an email confirming to thank me for sending the link and they will review it further, within 35 minutes, they had the story on CNN

 

[Gaborn]

And the US policy towards WWII once we got innit was one of expansionary Keynesian fiscal policy.

Actually that was pretty much their policy throughout the great depression. The problem being it doesn't work EXCEPT in war time.

My point, btw, was that you brought up what libertopia would do, not I. You can backpedal on everything you post, but don't hang your nonsense on me, son.

oh for goodness sake... ok, fine, but I only mentioned what a libertarian society would do because you seemed to imply that spending on the military itself was unlibertarian. Which is patently false.

 

[User 10639]

Actually that was pretty much their policy throughout the great depression. The problem being it doesn't work EXCEPT in war time.

Deficit spending means not balancing the budget...

oh for goodness sake... ok, fine, but I only mentioned what a libertarian society would do because you seemed to imply that spending on the military itself was unlibertarian. Which is patently false.

No, but maybe deficit spending on the military. I honestly don't care, as your party is never going to take power here or in any other major country, but you seemed big on conforming history to your own ideology so whatevs.

 

[reilo]

Well, we don't know what a libertarian society would do, since, well, is there one?

 

[Hitokage]

Well, we don't know what a libertarian society would do, since, well, is there one?

I remember reading a quote of one libertarian writer saying Somalia was close.

...

 

[reilo]

I remember reading a quote of one libertarian writer saying Somalia was close.

...

Well, obviously Somalia is such a great state of freedom, economic fertility, and a leader in world society.

 

[BenjaminBirdie]

God damn, that's an awesome and clean hit.

Just caught up on all this. My goodness, potentially the most damaging development to anyone in the campaign thus far. Why on Earth would you make such statements about the economy of all things. This isn't some dumb gaffe. This is the kind of thing that could stick around, and it's directly related to policy effecting like everyone.

 

[bob_arctor]

Well, obviously Somalia is such a great state of freedom, economic fertility, and a leader in world society.

Hito's "..." said as much Mr. Overkill. ;-)

 

[User 10639]

I remember reading a quote of one libertarian writer saying Somalia was close.

...

Well, in the 90s post-Pinochet Chile had a very laissez-faire approach to their economy, but that kinda went to hell when the wage gap between the rich and the poor grew so big (and the size of the lower class with it) that they elected a socialist to power.

 

[soul creator]

I'd love to join this discussion, but too bad the majority of my economics knowledge only comes from the fact I'm currently reading through The Shock Doctrine.

So I'll just say, fuck Milton Friedman and his Chicago Boys! whooo

 

[Macam]

I remember reading a quote of one libertarian writer saying Somalia was close.

...

Does that make Ethiopia the socialist nanny state?

Well, we don't know what a libertarian society would do, since, well, is there one?

They're sort of working on one.

 

[mckmas8808]

wow. communicating really works. CNN had not carried this phil story all day until 1, so i emailed them in the news hint section and told them to run this story as it was controversial, i got an email confirming to thank me for sending the link and they will review it further, within 35 minutes, they had the story on CNN

SHIT! You serious? Gaf should do this once a day. We know more about the campaign than most on CNN seriously. What's the email address you sent it to?

 

[adamsappel]

Phil Gramm is a dolt with some dubious ties -- and of course, served as one of Texas' Senators for nearly a decade. Sorry.

Phil Gramm's son used to occasionally temp where I worked in DC. It was sort of hard to reconcile him with a powerful US Senator for a dad: I think he only had one dress shirt, wrinkled, with holes, had unkempt hair, etc. He was a pretty cool kid, though; he was in a band and seemed interesting. Probably took after his mother.

 

[HokieJoe]

Heh....McCain's economic advisor Phil Gramm is quoted as saying "You've heard of mental depression; this is a mental recession. ... We have sort of become a nation of whiners. ...

"You just hear this constant whining, complaining about a loss of competitiveness, America in decline. ... We've never been more dominant; we've never had more natural advantages than we have today."

That shall CERTAINLY go over really well.:lol

I'm not saying I fully agree with Gramm here, but perception is a huge factor in economics and matters of the market. Perception and reality do not always agree. Some of our fundamentals such as GDP, higher exports (due to weak $), and unemployment are quite good. All is not rosy though. We have issues that need be addressed.

What I do agree with is the idea that we've become spoiled as a nation. We have become a nation of whiners. If Gen X and Y'ers had to experience anything as shitty as the Great Depression this country would fall into anarchy IMO. The people that went through the GD were the hard scrabble sort and better conditioned for such a calamity than we are (I'm sad to say). That's what happens when you have too much luxury time I suppose.

 

[Tamanon]

I'd say that circumstances contributed to your views on the people who survived, but only a fucking moron would call the American people whiners during a time of economic downturn for the middle and lower class. Especially when you make your living off those same people and are filthy rich. Psychology will get you nowhere when it comes to paying for gas or your house.

David Gregory has no clue how to run a program on the go based on breaking news.

 

[Macam]

David Gregory has no clue how to run a program on the go based on breaking news.

Gregory always struck me as a nice guy, but very much a traditional, don't rock the boat type of journalist, if that.

 

[reilo]

Phill Gramm won't retract his "whiners" comment.

Brilliantly idiotic.

 

[Tamanon]

Phill Gramm won't retract his "whiners" comment.

Brilliantly idiotic.

It makes me wonder how much of Phil Gramm's economic plan he designed for McCain is designed to purely attack the psychological side of things. Should start calling his plan a "placebo"

 

[FoneBone]

JD: Don't take this the wrong way, but seems to me you haven't read anything about economics qua economics. You have a moral philosophy and when you found out there was an economic school of thought that supported this philosophy you jumped on board.

Is that pretty much right?

Given that Austrian economics takes active pride in rejecting empirical research and the scientific method in favor of viewing the world through axioms...

 

[HokieJoe]

Lou Dobbs is frothing at the mouth about Obama saying that American kids need learn spanish while also careful to note that he has not taken the time to understand the context of the statement at all.

Eh, I think what Obama said was stupid. We aren't Europe, so we have no geographical need to be multilingual. Moreover, English is the language of commerce- not Spanish, not French, German or Italian. From a developmental standpoint, boosting funds for music programs would be better than making them learn a second language. I have an even better suggestion though: why not concentrate on the fundamentals first, (like reading-writing-arithmetic) instead of worrying about about fucking foreign language study.

 

[reilo]

Did Gregory just say that Obama doesn't have a big lead over McCain?

Sure, if you solely look at Gallup.

But if you look at the electoral map, it's not even close.

 

[Tamanon]

Eh, I think what Obama said was stupid. We aren't Europe, so we have no geographical need to be multilingual. Moreover, English is the language of commerce- not Spanish, not French, German or Italian. From a developmental standpoint, boosting funds for music programs would be better than making them learn a second language. I have an even better suggestion though: why not concentrate on the fundamentals first, (like reading-writing-arithmetic) instead of worrying about about fucking foreign language study.

You're obviously missing the other bonus of second languages, the ability to grow trade/relations with other countries. More exporting.

 

[StoOgE]

Man, I was buying gas and I imagined paying 4 dollars a gallon, now I cant stop whining about it.

 

[HokieJoe]

I'd say that circumstances contributed to your views on the people who survived, but only a fucking moron would call the American people whiners during a time of economic downturn for the middle and lower class.

Practically and politically speaking I agree. But some people in this country are in dire need of a kick in the ass. We've got it good compared to most in the world. I'm thankful for that.

 

[reilo]

Pew Poll has +8 lead for Obama.

But AP analysis says there's a "catch" and Gegory is running with the "catch", and "why isn't Obama farther ahead?"

wow.

 

[Tamanon]

Pew Poll has +8 lead for Obama.

But AP analysis says there's a "catch" and Gegory is running with the "catch", and "why isn't Obama farther ahead?"

wow.

I bet it's those Suburban White Women! And Gregory is pushing the hubris angle:lol "He's only 8 points ahead, obviously he's just coasting on his laurels and showing his hubris!"

 

[reilo]

"If I'm only 8pts ahead, I would be a bit worried."

/facepalm