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[APF]

Second time voter...but my vote for Kerry barely counts, since I only had Bush in mind when I pulled the lever.

I don't see what's wrong with that. At least 60% of GAF has bush in their minds when they pull the lever.

 

[Justin Bailey]

I don't like the direction this thread is going

 

[APF]

I'm aware that a great number of people use them as primary news sources, and to be perfectly honest, I'm less worried about people using Leno and Letterman than about using O'Reilly. I guess I worry more about deliberate attempts to misinform than I am about ineffective attempts at humor.

You think he misinforms people about his opinions, and deliberately?

Your argument is migrating from objectivity to tone to quality, when all you needed to say from the beginning was, "I don't like his show."

 

[pxleyes]

I don't see what's wrong with that. At least 60% of GAF has bush in their minds when they pull the lever.

It's a fleeting sort of feeling.

You think he misinforms people about his opinions, and deliberately?

Your argument is migrating from objectivity to tone to quality, when all you needed to say from the beginning was, "I don't like his show."

He misinforms people about the facts by using his opinions as the facts.

 

[The Librarian]

I don't like the direction this thread is going

I would add a witty comment to this quote but I can't think of any at the moment.

 

[StoOgE]

Not that that the deficit is a huge concern for most pundits, but I really did expect more people to press McCain on his claim that he would balance the budget. Then again, he's rather lucky no one did, whether because they had other things to blather on about or perhaps because no one took him seriously.

Yeah, how you are going to go from biggest budget deficit ever to balanced in 4 years DURING an economic downturn that doesnt involve ending the war in Iraq and cutting taxes?

 

[Mumei]

You think he misinforms people about his opinions, and deliberately?

Nope, not at all.

I think he misinforms people about facts; I think he's quite honest about what his opinions are. As to whether it is deliberate or not, I have no idea. I'm still allowed to condemn it if he's doing it unintentionally, right?

Your argument is migrating from objectivity to tone to quality, when all you needed to say from the beginning was, "I don't like his show."

Again, I do not expect him to be objective. I expect him to talk about his opinions and present stories in a way that is favorable to his positions. That said, I don't think it is unreasonable to expect him to do it without resorting to a number of the techniques of propagandizing. It is possible to say, for example, what Dailykos's position is on a given issue and why they are wrong without labeling them a subversive unAmerican force which is somehow just as bad as the Nazis. My argument didn't start off talking about objectivity; it talked about the usage of propaganda techniques. It is entirely possible to have a show where one talks about his opinions, and also does not engage in constant usage of glittering generalities, name-calling, heroification / vilification, plain folks, and so forth. He does not do that - if the study is to be believed, he uses one of those more than every 5 seconds.

 

[maximum360]

Kaine may or may not help out in VA, but his fluency in Spanish would be a big plus in Obama's efforts to court Latinos. (on the flip side it might turn off those "working class white voters", though they may might not have voted for Obama anyway).

 

[reilo]

I think I've found a new nickname for McCain considering the latest theme about him:

John McCain: Lucky to be John McCain.

 

[Tamanon]

Speaking of which, Obama's camp announced a $20 million campaign to register and turnout the Latino vote.

 

[reilo]

Speaking of which, Obama's camp announced a $20 million campaign to register and turnout the Latino vote.

The Obama McCain: Spending John McCain's highest monthly fund raising efforts to register minority voters.

 

[APF]

I think he misinforms people about facts; I think he's quite honest about what his opinions are. As to whether it is deliberate or not, I have no idea. I'm still allowed to condemn it if he's doing it unintentionally, right?

I just don't understand why you've dragged me along on this journey, when all you really meant was, "I disagree with him and don't like his show." You said you started this because you were against propaganda, then you agreed it's hard not to propagandize when your show is based on presenting your perspective on things. That's when you should have stopped posting.


BOR calls Kos Kiddies bad names not because he disagrees with their viewpoints, but because he's had a couple of bad run-ins with them and doesn't see beyond the incidences where he's been "smeared" by them and they called him bad names that make him frowny-face.

 

[twinturbo2]

Ted Stevens was indicted.
http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/7/29/12576/8665/499/558845

 

[kkaabboomm]

i was in alaska when a state senator got indicted earlier this july, and the story kept alluding to the don young and ted stevens investigations in the Anchorage paper. having filled in my family about what was happening, we come home, and bam, ted stevens, indicted. too bad this couldnt have waited until after the august 26th primary, now there is a chance he won't even be the R candidate...

 

[The Librarian]

I have noticed that Obama doesn't talk much about immigration. I am getting the wrong impression, or is this true?

 

[Tamanon]

Most people in non-border states could give a damn about immigration, so he hasn't had a reason to bring it up, his positions on it are pretty well-defined. He's not trying to walk a line like McCain

 

[The Librarian]

Most people in non-border states could give a damn about immigration, so he hasn't had a reason to bring it up, his positions on it are pretty well-defined. He's not trying to walk a line like McCain

It doesn't seem that way to me. Or maybe that is because I know a person who constantly brings it up and thinks that the "Mexicans are taking over America" and soon that "our country will be speaking Latino."

Sometimes I'm afraid he's right, other times I find it to be complete BS

 

[GhaleonEB]

It doesn't seem that way to me. Or maybe that is because I know a person who constantly brings it up and thinks that the "Mexicans are taking over America" and soon that "our country will be speaking Latino."

Sometimes I'm afraid he's right, other times I find it to be complete BS

He's spoken at lenght about immigration on his stump speeches and highlighted it a few times recently.

http://www.cfr.org/publication/16689/obamas_speech_at_naleo_on_immigration.html

 

[TDG]

It doesn't seem that way to me. Or maybe that is because I know a person who constantly brings it up and thinks that the "Mexicans are taking over America" and soon that "our country will be speaking Latino."

Sometimes I'm afraid he's right, other times I find it to be complete BS

What's wrong with that? Why would you be afraid he's right? Latino is a fine language to speak.

 

[maximum360]

Press luggage tags per the McCain campaign:

 

[The Librarian]

What's wrong with that? Why would you be afraid he's right? Latino is a fine language to speak.

For one "Latino" isn't even a language. And what's wrong with what? Be more specific. I can't picture an America that isn't English speaking; it just doesn't seem right.

And Ghal, thanks for link.

 

[Mumei]

I just don't understand why you've dragged me along on this journey, when all you really meant was, "I disagree with him and don't like his show."

It's your journey; I'm just here because I enjoy your company.

You said you started this because you were against propaganda,

I did? I thought I just posted it without comment, and you responded with your belief that it is irrelevant because he is a media personality who is not paid to be objective. I said why I think that's untrue, and it has been a back-and-forth on that point (more or less) ever since.

then you agreed it's hard not to propagandize when your show is based on presenting your perspective on things.

Of course I agree that it is not difficult to engage in some level of propagandizing; the issue was more with engaging in the specific techniques of propagandizing. I thought that was something that was inherently clear; simply talking about one's viewpiont on a nationally televised TV show is the process of propandizing in the sense of spreading "information, ideas, or rumors to help or harm a person, group, movement, institution, nation, etc."

As you said, "The bar for "propagandizing" is extremely low. It's everywhere: look at the RS cover posted above, look at this thread, etc. It's hard not to propagandize when you have an opinion-based show that is focused on one person's populist-nationalist-traditionalist views and how he interprets world events."

Granted, I wasn't setting the bar for "propagandizing" at "the dissemination of information, ideas, or rumors to help or harm a, etc.", but in the usage of the techniques of propagandizing, so your comment was helpful there. It is possible to propagandize incidentally as a result of giving one's opinions and presenting things through your ideological prism, and it is possible to propagandize intentionally, through lying, name-calling, stacking the deck, glittering generalities, heroification of those you agree with and vilification of those you disagree with, and so forth. One is something that is probably impossible to avoid; the other is a deliberate choice. I thought I was clear from the beginning that it was the latter that I disagreed with (given that that was the only thing I ever talked about before you brought up the "low bar" version), but I suppose I wasn't clear enough for you.

BOR calls Kos Kiddies bad names not because he disagrees with their viewpoints, but because he's had a couple of bad run-ins with them and doesn't see beyond the incidences where he's been "smeared" by them and they called him bad names that make him frowny-face.

Did he also have a bad experience with a pack of wild lesbians when he was younger, too?

 

[Tamanon]

The Reno 9-11 guys? McCain's camp is really weird.

 

[maximum360]

Kaine also needs a decent haircut. What's up with this:

 

[The Librarian]

Kaine also needs a decent haircut. What's up with this:

Here's one from July 21st:

 

[StoOgE]

What's wrong with that? Why would you be afraid he's right? Latino is a fine language to speak.

I can only say "Merci vo cuoup"

 

[Macam]

I have noticed that Obama doesn't talk much about immigration. I am getting the wrong impression, or is this true?

He was asked about it this past Sunday at the Unity Conference. CNN's Late Edition w/Wolf Blitzer had Obama's entire appearance there, which was only about 20 minutes, so you may want to check CNN's website or YouTube for it, as he gave a pretty good overview of his views on immigration and alluded to some specific policy implementations.

EDIT: Here's a link to the transcript of the entire Late Edition show. If you search for Dianne Solis (she was the journalist who asked the question), you'll jump right to the part about immigration.

 

[TDG]

For one "Latino" isn't even a language. And what's wrong with what? Be more specific. I can't picture an America that isn't English speaking; it just doesn't seem right.

I was making a joke. Your person you know said that "our country will soon be speaking Latino," and I said "what's wrong with that? Why would you be afraid he's right? Latino is a fine language to speak." Y'know, jokes? Ha ha.

Although, I would say that if one of your main concerns is that America may not be english speaking (which, I should point out, is a very vague term, the USA has no official language, and many different languages are commonly spoken), I'd say you have some strange concerns.

 

[The Librarian]

He was asked about it this past Sunday at the Unity Conference. CNN's Late Edition w/Wolf Blitzer had Obama's entire appearance there, which was only about 20 minutes, so you may want to check CNN's website or YouTube for it, as he gave a pretty good overview of his views on immigration and alluded to some specific policy implementations.

EDIT: Here's a link to the transcript of the entire Late Edition show. If you search for Dianne Solis (she was the journalist who asked the question), you'll jump right to the part about immigration.

Thanks, reading now.

I was making a joke. Your person you know said that "our country will soon be speaking Latino," and I said "what's wrong with that? Why would you be afraid he's right? Latino is a fine language to speak." Y'know, jokes? Ha ha.

Yeah, I know jokes. As I was typing up that response the though of "Is he joking?" had crossed my mind. But I decided not to ask.

Spoiler

Me being as sarcastic as I am, I really need to get better at detecting when other people are being sarcastic :/

Although, I would say that if one of your main concerns is that America may not be english speaking(which, I should point out, is a very vague term, the USA has no official language, and many different languages are commonly spoken), I'd say you have some strange concerns.

Yeah, I know English is not the official language of this country. It isn't that it is a concern of mine, it is just that I hear it so much from this person, I sometimes questions if he is right or not.

 

[ZealousD]

I got a call from the Obama campaign today asking me to donate some more, and I only donated $15 during the primaries!

So, when is "NeoGAF for Obama" going to set a new goal for ourselves?

 

[APF]

Granted, I wasn't setting the bar for "propagandizing" at "the dissemination of information, ideas, or rumors to help or harm a, etc.", but in the usage of the techniques of propagandizing, so your comment was helpful there. It is possible to propagandize incidentally as a result of giving one's opinions and presenting things through your ideological prism, and it is possible to propagandize intentionally, through lying, name-calling, stacking the deck, glittering generalities, heroification of those you agree with and vilification of those you disagree with, and so forth.

Again, this thread fits the bill for all of your concerns. When you're dealing with an individual, why do you feel you have the right to dictate how he talks? the words he uses to describe people / things he likes / dislikes? the guests he has on his show? how generous he is to opposing viewpoints? the level of verification he chooses to use when determining whether or not to discuss something? And to vilify these opinions and personal choices as "propagandistic" is itself venturing into hypocrisy.

You have a problem with people giving their opinions, and having an audience in doing so. Great, you've discovered the problem with the 1st Amendment; bravo. But again, this has little to do with his responsibility as a "journalist," and more to do with speech you want suppressed. So you're getting little sympathy from me.

 

[The Librarian]

Again, this thread fits the bill for all of your concerns. When you're dealing with an individual, why do you feel you have the right to dictate how he talks? the words he uses to describe people / things he likes / dislikes? the guests he has on his show? how generous he is to opposing viewpoints? the level of verification he chooses to use when determining whether or not to discuss something? And to vilify these opinions and personal choices as "propagandistic" is itself venturing into hypocrisy.

You have a problem with people giving their opinions, and having an audience in doing so. Great, you've discovered the problem with the 1st Amendment; bravo. But again, this has little to do with his responsibility as a "journalist," and more to do with speech you want suppressed. So you're getting little sympathy from me.

What are you guys arguing about again?:lol

 

[Tamanon]

They're just arguing to argue, I think Mumei is just doing the whole "drawing fire" tactic

 

[TDG]

Yeah, I know English is not the official language of this country. It isn't that it is a concern of mine, it is just that I hear it so much from this person, I sometimes questions if he is right or not.

I hope he is right. Personally, a dream of mine has always been to live in a USA where people are smart and speak multiple languages. In fact, that's why I like Obama's plans to put more emphasis on foreign language classes in schools. I'd much rather our country be filled with people who can go anywhere and talk to anyone than people who know and speak one language, and are afraid of people who speak different languages.

 

[reilo]

I hope he is right. Personally, a dream of mine has always been to live in a USA where people are smart and speak multiple languages. In fact, that's why I like Obama's plans to put more emphasis on foreign language classes in schools. I'd much rather our country be filled with people who can go anywhere and talk to anyone than people who know and speak one language, and are afraid of people who speak different languages.

Honestly I'd rather that the kids would learn proper English first.

English is my THIRD language mind you, and I feel like I have better grasp of it than most citizens that were born in this country.

 

[The Librarian]

I hope he is right. Personally, a dream of mine has always been to live in a USA where people are smart and speak multiple languages. In fact, that's why I like Obama's plans to put more emphasis on foreign language classes in schools. I'd much rather our country be filled with people who can go anywhere and talk to anyone than people who know and speak one language, and are afraid of people who speak different languages.

But he is talking about it in terms of only speaking Spanish, not Spanish and English.

 

[TDG]

Honestly I'd rather that the kids would learn proper English first.

English is my THIRD language mind you, and I feel like I have better grasp of it than most citizens that were born in this country.

Well, that's a whole other problem right they're.

 

[GhaleonEB]

Well, that's a whole other problem right they're.

:lol

 

[Incognito]

But he is talking about it in terms of only speaking Spanish, not Spanish and English.

No.

He's talking about supplementing English with Spanish.

 

[Hootie]

I decided to take Italian language classes instead of Spanish. I hope that doesn't end up biting me in the ass when I'm looking for a job later on.

 

[bob_arctor]

Personally, a dream of mine has always been to live in a USA where people are smart and speak multiple languages.

So, when you moving to NYC?

 

[The Librarian]

I decided to take Italian language classes instead of Spanish. I hope that doesn't end up biting me in the ass when I'm looking for a job later on.

My school just offers French, Spanish, and Latin. I would have taken German or Italian.

Well, that's a whole other problem right they're.

I aint got no problem with that, ya'll.

 

[scorcho]

So, when you moving to NYC?

probably by September when the Yanks finish 3rd in the AL East.

 

[Tamanon]

My school just offers French, Spanish, and Latin. I would have taken German or Italian.


I aint got no problem with that, ya'll.

Doofus, it's spelled "y'all"

 

[The Librarian]

Doofus, it's spelled "y'all"

MAN, you is not be messin with me like that. You don't see me going all G on your spelling. I is not a spelling gangsta. I thought we was brothers?

 

[Mumei]

Again, this thread fits the bill for all of your concerns.

It does? I mean, it fits some of them, I admit, but I'm not sure it meets all of them. Can you elaborate for me?

When you're dealing with an individual, why do you feel you have the right to dictate how he talks?

Lies.

the words he uses to describe people / things he likes / dislikes?

Liiiiies.

the guests he has on his show?

Liiiiiiiiies.

how generous he is to opposing viewpoints?

Liiiiiiiiiiiiies.

the level of verification he chooses to use when determining whether or not to discuss something?

Liiiiiiiiiiiiiiies.

I don't want to force him to do anything in particular, I just want to condemn him. He's still free to do the things I condemn him for, and I respect his right to do them. I still get to complain about it, though.

And to vilify these opinions and personal choices as "propagandistic" is itself venturing into hypocrisy.

But I'm not villifying his views or the fact that he is giving his views, but the manner in which he does it.

You have a problem with people giving their opinions, and having an audience in doing so.

Lies.

Great, you've discovered the problem with the 1st Amendment; bravo.

Thank you!

But again, this has little to do with his responsibility as a "journalist," and more to do with speech you want suppressed. So you're getting little sympathy from me.

I do not want his speech suppressed. That would be mean and unAmerican... or something like that.

They're just arguing to argue, I think Mumei is just doing the whole "drawing fire" tactic

I enjoy arguing for the sake of arguing without any intent of coming to a resolution.

It fills a listless day for me. :lol

What are you guys arguing about again?:lol

Whatever my dear friend wishes to argue about next.

 

[StoOgE]

Once a month APF finds this thread and derails it. beause of the NeoGaffers for Obama campaign if you google my real name, the second thing that shows up is "APF am cry"

So, he's got that going for him.

The first thing that shows up is NeoGaffers for Obama.

Luckily none of my real friends have googled my name lately because I dont want to have to explain either GAF or APF to them.

 

[The Librarian]

Once a month APF finds this thread and derails it. beause of the NeoGaffers for Obama campaign if you google my real name, the second thing that shows up is "APF am cry"

So, he's got that going for him.

The first thing that shows up is NeoGaffers for Obama.

Luckily none of my real friends have googled my name lately because I dont want to have to explain either GAF or APF to them.

You mean your real name isn't StoOgE?!?!?

I'm... disappointed.

 

[StoOgE]

You mean your real name isn't StoOgE?!?!?

I'm... disappointed.

Sorry to disapoint.

I remember back when I had my old Howard the Duck avatar (for YEARS) a lot of Gaffers were disapointed that I didnt sound like a duck.

In fact, I might go back to it.

 

[GhaleonEB]

Obama again visted veep vetter Eric Holder's office. Reporters following the candidate spotted him walking into Holder's downtown DC office building this afternoon. Obama was at the office yesterday as well.

Obama was there for three hours yesterday. Sounds like they're getting close.

Edit: and Kaine just cancelled an appearance tomorrow.

http://politickermd.com/wallyedgemd/3025/source-kaine-pulls-out-08-unity-fundraiser

A source says that Virginia Gov. Tim Kaine is no longer attending tomorrow night's '08 Unity Fundraiser for the State Democratic Central Committee at Iguana Catina in Baltimore.

Mention of Kaine at the event has been removed from the party's website, and Kaine was not identified with the other notable out-of-state guests Pennsylvania Gov. Ed Rendell and Washington D.C. Mayor Adrian Fenty.