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[thekad]

Morons!

I can't believe I watched the whole thing.

 

[grandjedi6]

I can expect equality. Not a separate legal status. Not taking it just so far but not all the way, not half rights, not 3/5, not 99/100. Equality under the law in name and fact.

Is Obama preventing that from happening? No. If anything he is helping you achieve this by pushing equality so hard. The only thing that differs between you and Obama is that Obama personally believes that marriage is between a man and woman. Yet both of your actions are the same.

 

[Gaborn]

Is Obama preventing that from happening? No. If anything he is helping you achieve this by pushing equality so hard. The only thing that differs between you and Obama is that Obama personally believes that marriage is between a man and woman. Yet both of your actions are the same.

Yet I won't vote for the man, and among the reasons why is his lack of support for marriage equality.

edit - LOL, Andrew Sullivan is EVIL, he linked to a RickRoll video that purported to be the rumored Michelle Obama tape (which almost certainly doesn't exist and didn't happen)

 

[Dan]

^ Even if he did support it, what's he going to do about it?

Obama does personally believe that marriage is a bond between a man and woman. Yet he supports full civil unions, believes same sex marriage should be left to the states, voted against the Marriage amendment and wants to repeal "Dont' ask, Don't tell". So much for that "religious beliefs affecting his political judgement" worry, huh?

Furthermore, regarding marriage, the president really can't do anything except call on congress to pass an amendment, and that's something he is against. It's up to the states to slowly but surely get rid of the 'separate but equal' treatment.

So... I don't see a point in getting upset about Obama's not-quite-liberal-enough views on the subject.

 

[Elfforkusu]

I can expect equality. Not a separate legal status. Not taking it just so far but not all the way, not half rights, not 3/5, not 99/100. Equality under the law in name and fact.

When has Obama suggested he believes otherwise?

He just doesn't want to (legally) call it marriage, since marriage is largely a religious term and institution. ("...between a man and a woman...")

I happen to agree completely with his stance there. And I'm not running for office, before anyone accuses me of pandering

 

[Mumei]

Yet I won't vote for the man, and among the reasons why is his lack of support for marriage equality.

... What in the goddamned hell are you on? You would prefer McCain as President? Obama is with you on gay rights 80% of the way, and you'll vote against him because he hasn't come that extra mile with you?

That's so ridiculously myopic.

 

[Gaborn]

... What in the goddamned hell are you on? You would prefer McCain as President? Obama is with you on gay rights 80% of the way, and you'll vote against him because he hasn't come that extra mile with you?

That's so ridiculously myopic.

Where the hell did I say I'd prefer McCain? I'm not voting for McCain either.

 

[Hellsing321]

... What in the goddamned hell are you on? You would prefer McCain as President? Obama is with you on gay rights 80% of the way, and you'll vote against him because he hasn't come that extra mile with you?

That's so ridiculously myopic.

Since hes a Libertarian, he'll be voting for Babar. At least thats what I assume.

 

[Gaborn]

Since hes a Libertarian, he'll be voting for Babar. At least thats what I assume.

Either Barr (assuming he's changed as much as he claims, which I'm still not 100% on but I'm leaning towards believing) or not at all, yes.

 

[Mumei]

Where the hell did I say I'd prefer McCain? I'm not voting for McCain either.

Ah.

Still, your refusal to vote for Obama on those grounds is ridiculously short-sighted.

 

[TDG]

edit - LOL, Andrew Sullivan is EVIL, he linked to a RickRoll video that purported to be the rumored Michelle Obama tape (which almost certainly doesn't exist and didn't happen)

This reminds me, The Columbus Dispatch ran a story about the scary black people Obama hangs out with. His wife was among the people in the article. I said wow.

 

[grandjedi6]

Since hes a Libertarian, he'll be voting for Babar. At least thats what I assume.

Which would actually be worse then McCain

 

[Mumei]

Either Barr (assuming he's changed as much as he claims, which I'm still not 100% on but I'm leaning towards believing) or not at all, yes.

You will vote for the man who authored the Defense of Marriage Act, the man who has absolutely not a snowball's chance in hell of winning?

Why?

 

[Clevinger]

Give me full progress this instant or no progress!

 

[Gaborn]

Ah.

Still, your refusal to vote for Obama on those grounds is ridiculously short-sighted.

Well, as I said it's one reason among many, I'm also disturbed by his flip on drug decriminalization (on video in 04 supporting it, now opposed, at least I think it was '04) at least Barr switched the correct way on that issue. I don't trust Obama not to go into other countries militarily as well. He opposes Iraq which is good, but I believe Obama has some of the "traits" of being the type of President that promotes democracy through force in the right circumstances.

Mumei - The reason to vote for Barr is both because he can't win (to make a strong point) and to advocate the basic political philosophy he represents. There also seem to be many issues, including gay rights and the Patriot act where he made a sincere change.

 

[reilo]

You will vote for the man who authored the Defense of Marriage Act, the man who has absolutely not a snowball's chance in hell of winning?

Why?

Because Bob Barr has flip-flopped so much that his stances on whatever political issue right now happened to match up with Gaborn's by mere mathematical probability. Six months from now his political compass will change again as the wind blows.

 

[Mumei]

Because Bob Barr has flip-flopped so much that his stances on whatever political issue right now happened to match up with Gaborn's by mere mathematical probability. Six months from now his political compass will change again as the wind blows.

Ah.

Things make sense now, thanks.

 

[grandjedi6]

Well, as I said it's one reason among many, I'm also disturbed by his flip on drug decriminalization (on video in 04 supporting it, now opposed, at least I think it was '04) at least Barr switched the correct way on that issue. I don't trust Obama not to go into other countries militarily as well. He opposes Iraq which is good, but I believe Obama has some of the "traits" of being the type of President that promotes democracy through force in the right circumstances.

Mumei - The reason to vote for Barr is both because he can't win (to make a strong point) and to advocate the basic political philosophy he represents. There also seem to be many issues, including gay rights and the Patriot act where he made a sincere change.

For your political beliefs, how is Bob Barr better then Obama on any issue other then drug decriminalization? Honestly Gaborn the only reason you seem to be voting for Barr is due to the new (Libertarian) tag before his name.

 

[Gaborn]

Because Bob Barr has flip-flopped so much that his stances on whatever political issue right now happened to match up with Gaborn's by mere mathematical probability. Six months from now his political compass will change again as the wind blows.

This from a former Kerry supporter?

grandjedi - In my opinion better a candidate that can't win but advocates a philosophy I believe in (whether he does so sincerely or not) than a big government candidate I don't particularly trust on most issues who hasn't shown a great deal of concern towards issues important to me and would certainly raise taxes and government spending.

 

[grandjedi6]

Something I just learned: Unsurprisingly Bob Barr doesn't believe in Global Warming. :/

 

[reilo]

This from a former Kerry supporter?

How many issues has Kerry flip-flopped on compared to Barr's? Bob Barr did a complete 180 on his political stances - some extremely major as you have pointed out.

Something I just learned: Unsurprisingly Bob Barr doesn't believe in Global Warming. :/

Wow.

Mike Huckabee and Bob Barr have more in common than I thought!

 

[Sharp]

Something I just learned: Unsurprisingly Bob Barr doesn't believe in Global Warming. :/

Is this really a matter for belief, out of curiosity?

 

[grandjedi6]

This from a former Kerry supporter?

grandjedi - In my opinion better a candidate that can't win but advocates a philosophy I believe in (whether he does so sincerely or not) than a big government candidate I don't particularly trust on most issues who hasn't shown a great deal of concern towards issues important to me and would certainly raise taxes and government spending.

Well if taxes and government spending issues are why you are voting Bob Barr then go ahead. But why do you always make social issue distinctions beween Obama and Barr instead of what is really guiding your vote: economics and small gov.

Is this really a matter for belief, out of curiosity?

Not really. By "doesn't believe" I mean more "willfully ignoring reality"

 

[thefit]

One thing I find interesting about this election is, for years, it has been argued the Republicans always run better campaigns and that's why they always win Presidential elections. They have a better message; they connect with people. Even if you fundamentally disagree with Republicans like I do on pretty much all issues, many people still admit this.

But what are we seeing this time? Obama's campaign is far more effective. It's evident in how McCain basically rips off Obama's main slogan and uses it in everything from his speeches to his website. Obama is running a MUCH better campaign. He has definitely taken the lead here. So much that McCain can't help but jump on the bandwagon and try to steal it.


If Ohio is getting redder, why did Republicans get pwned there in 2006? Wasn't too long ago..

Its the interents that have made all the difference, people especially younger people can catch BS from the Republicans and spread the word in an instant no matter how hard the corporate media regurgitates their talking points. Obama has been able to utilize the internet like no one before and its paying off big time. The future political arena is here and if the backward thinking Repubs don't catch up their gonna keep getting mowed over.

This is a generational shift, kids that grew up during Bush's 8 year dark ages redux get it and now they are making themselves known and its not just them they in turn influence what their parents and peers view as fact.

 

[Gaborn]

Well if taxes and government spending issues are why you are voting Bob Barr then go ahead. But why do you always make social issue distinctions beween Obama and Barr instead of what is really guiding your vote: economics and small gov.

Mainly because I find it interesting how willing GAF is to give a pass to Obama on those issues. I would probably be a lot more verbal about my opposition to McCain if GAF was a pro-war McCain lovin' forum too.

Not really. By "doesn't believe" I mean more "willfully ignoring reality"

I believe in global warming but I don't think a President has much control on the issue.

 

[Dan]

Gaborn desperately needs to explain how a president in full support of marriage equality would actually impact the issue.

 

[slidewinder]

Is this really a matter for belief, out of curiosity?

Science is cool and all, but when it starts messing with a pre-existing worldview, maybe it's just going a little too far, you know? It could be better behaved at times, is what I'm saying.

 

[grandjedi6]

Mainly because I find it interesting how willing GAF is to give a pass to Obama on those issues. I would probably be a lot more verbal about my opposition to McCain if GAF was a pro-war McCain lovin' forum too.

It's not really giving him a pass if we agree with him on his stances

I believe in global warming but I don't think a President has much control on the issue.

Apparently you've missed all the legislation, treaties and protocols Bush has managed to veto in the last 8 years. Unlike same sex marriage, climate change is greatly effected by the President and his powers

 

[reilo]

It's not really giving him a pass if we agree with him on his stances



Apparently you've missed all the legislation, treaties and protocols Bush has managed to veto in the last 8 years. Unlike same sex marriage, climate change is greatly effected by the President and his powers

Not to mention that whomever he puts in for very important cabinet positions such as Secretary of Energy.

Plus, a president can help enact programs that try to curb emissions.

Current DoE head Samuel Bodman:

He leads the Department of Energy with a budget in excess of $23 billion and over 100,000 federal and contractor employees.

That's a ton of influence.

 

[grandjedi6]

Not to mention that whomever he puts in for very important cabinet positions such as Secretary of Energy.

Plus, a president can help enact programs that try to curb emissions.

Current DoE head Samuel Bodman:



That's a ton of influence.

Personally I would have mentioned the head of EPA but SoE works too

 

[reilo]

Personally I would have mentioned the head of EPA but SoE works too

Forgot about the EPA. Both are two extremely powerful positions a president directly influences.

The Committee Chair, Henry Waxman (D-CA), said "You have essentially become a figurehead....The president apparently insisted in his judgment and overrode the unanimous recommendations of EPA scientific and legal experts. You reversed yourself after having candid conversations with the White House."

Oops!

http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5hqL8ovqHhI2FutMS3xzjq5vY0W4AD90PL61O0

 

[soul creator]

Gaborn: 1 and three-thirds.

it would actually be the politically clever way to approach everything:

"I support a woman's right to remove a fetus from her body up to the time it is viable, but I am absolutely opposed to abortion!"

"I don't have a belief in the existence of divine beings, but I am absolutely not an atheist!"

 

[Gaborn]

Gaborn desperately needs to explain how a president in full support of marriage equality would actually impact the issue.

Well technically I don't "desperately" need to do so, but the effect should be obvious. The biggest practical effect would be lobbying congress to get a bill to his desk, same as Bush being a Pro-FMA president got some votes on the issue while the Reps controlled congress. The bully pulpit is a powerful tool and Obama's going to use it to promote second class status.

 

[grandjedi6]

Bob Barr is really starting to piss me off with his climate change policy: http://www.bobbarr2008.com/press/pr...in-the-name-of-the-environment-says-bob-barr/

Despite the many predictions of doom, "the science of climate change remains highly complex," he says. There has been no warming over the last decade and scientists disagree over how much warming is likely in the future.

Lies! Climate change is complex but that is why there are credited scientists who spend years studying it. Just because something is impossible to comprehend to you doens't mean experts in that field can't understand it

And there has been warming over the last decade, don't lie Barr. Oh and there aren't a large amount of scientists who disagree on global warming on your level.

Energy prices would soar. Hundreds of thousands or millions of jobs would be lost. Barr points to a study by the Congressional Budget Office which warns that the Senate bill would hike energy costs $1300 per household, effectively a $1 trillion tax hike over the next decade. "Estimates of the potential GDP loss run into the trillions of dollars," he explains.

And skeptics complain that enviromentalists are alarmists, sheesh!

Yet climatologists like Dr. Patrick Michaels figure that Lieberman-Warner would cut potential future warming by only .013 degrees (Celsius), "an amount hard to even measure," says Barr. It makes far more sense "to adapt to challenges as they develop than to commit economic suicide to prevent problems that are unlikely to occur."

.013 degrees Celsius is a fucking lot on a global scale from only a minor regulation for one country.

 

[Gaborn]

It's not really giving him a pass if we agree with him on his stances

I was unaware that most Obama supporters were pro-drug war, my apologies.

Apparently you've missed all the legislation, treaties and protocols Bush has managed to veto in the last 8 years. Unlike same sex marriage, climate change is greatly effected by the President and his powers

There are reasons beyond a belief or not in global warming to oppose Kyoto and other lopsided treaties and protocols that restrict our economic growth but not China and India's.

 

[Oozer3993]

Why don't you like Obama?

I forget the exact quote (and who said it) but it goes something like:

Anyone who aspires to the presidency is ill prepared to receive it.

I find that to be true 99% of the time.

But to get specific:

* I am against any form of universal healthcare. I believe Barack's plan does not address the real issues causing health care costs to rise.
* I believe the government should not be anywhere near the business of creating jobs.
* I am against any knee-jerk regulation against mortgage lenders when the "crisis" we currently have is largely the fault of the people taking out mortgages they couldn't afford.
* I believe his plan for troop withdrawal in Iraq will only lead to disaster down the road.
* I am strongly against abortion in all cases that are not for rape, incest or a situation where the mother's health is in serious danger. Obama quite obviously does not share this view.

 

[reilo]

I just chuckled because I realized why Gaborn thinks the president does not have much control of the issue in regards to the environment.

As a libertarian, of course he would think that the president has little influence as he thinks the government should get rid of SoE and EPA.

 

[grandjedi6]

Well technically I don't "desperately" need to do so, but the effect should be obvious. The biggest practical effect would be lobbying congress to get a bill to his desk, same as Bush being a Pro-FMA president got some votes on the issue while the Reps controlled congress. The bully pulpit is a powerful tool and Obama's going to use it to promote second class status.

How is Obama going to use the Presidency to promote a second class status for homosexuals? None of Obama's actions have suggested that he will interfere with same sex marriage

I was unaware that most Obama supporters were pro-drug war, my apologies.

Marijuna decriminalization is really really important to you, huh?

There are reasons beyond a belief or not in global warming to oppose Kyoto and other lopsided treaties and protocols that restrict our economic growth but not China and India's.

That really has nothing to do with the conversation. I was just presenting evidence on how the President effects climate change policy

 

[Dan]

Well technically I don't "desperately" need to do so, but the effect should be obvious. The biggest practical effect would be lobbying congress to get a bill to his desk, same as Bush being a Pro-FMA president got some votes on the issue while the Reps controlled congress. The bully pulpit is a powerful tool and Obama's going to use it to promote second class status.

You think it's prudent to push for a constitutional amendment that would require 2/3s approval in both the House and Senate before even being sent to the states? There isn't a chance in hell that would get anywhere. Why waste time when there is so much other realistic legislation to tackle?

 

[grandjedi6]

I forget the exact quote (and who said it) but it goes something like:

Anyone who aspires to the presidency is ill prepared to receive it.

I find that to be true 99% of the time.

But to get specific:

* I am against any form of universal healthcare. I believe Barack's plan does not address the real issues causing health care costs to rise.
* I believe the government should not be anywhere near the business of creating jobs.
* I am against any knee-jerk regulation against mortgage lenders when the "crisis" we currently have is largely the fault of the people taking out mortgages they couldn't afford.
* I believe his plan for troop withdrawal in Iraq will only lead to disaster down the road.
* I am strongly against abortion in all cases that are not for rape, incest or a situation where the mother's health is in serious danger. Obama quite obviously does not share this view.

Things aren't going well for you conservatives, huh?

Spoiler

It's probably going to get worse

 

[Mandark]

There are reasons beyond a belief or not in global warming to oppose Kyoto and other lopsided treaties and protocols that restrict our economic growth but not China and India's.

Which is why people like Bob Barr shouldn't dishonestly try to muddy the waters about what the science shows, and make a straightforward economic case for their position.

 

[Gaborn]

How is Obama going to use the Presidency to promote a second class status for homosexuals? None of Obama's actions have suggested that he will interfere with same sex marriage

Well, I fully expect (because there's NO excuse if Obama wins and barely one now under Bush who supports second class status but civil unions) someone to introduce in congress a civil union bill, Obama will talk about how this is "true equality" and how "everybody should be happy" with this and the "need for healing along with happiness" and various platitudes that mean he's moving the country to thinking civil unions are enough. They're not.

Marijuna decriminalization is really really important to you, huh?

Considering the cost to our prison system and the lives wasted in the drug war? yes, economically and morally it is arguably the second most important issue we face (#1 being getting the hell out of Iraq)

That really has nothing to do with the conversation. I was just presenting evidence on how the President effects climate change policy

That's true, a president can affect climate change policy. My point is that there is no reason to think a climate change skeptic would de facto be different because they were a skeptic, as long as there are alternative reasons to be opposed to various treaties.

 

[grandjedi6]

Well, I fully expect (because there's NO excuse if Obama wins and barely one now under Bush who supports second class status but civil unions) someone to introduce in congress a civil union bill, Obama will talk about how this is "true equality" and how "everybody should be happy" with this and the "need for healing along with happiness" and various platitudes that mean he's moving the country to thinking civil unions are enough. They're not.

I have no clue how you came to that conclusion. Obama supports every pro-LGBT issue out there. If Congress did pass a civil union bill I can't see why passing it would be a problem or how/why Obama would oppose any mythical same sex marriage bill.

Considering the cost to our prison system and the lives wasted in the drug war? yes, economically and morally it is arguably the second most important issue we face (#1 being getting the hell out of Iraq)

You do realize most people don't share that level concern, right? (and Obama basically supports decriminalization mostly, just not legalization)

That's true, a president can affect climate change policy. My point is that there is no reason to think a climate change skeptic would de facto be different because they were a skeptic, as long as there are alternative reasons to be opposed to various treaties.

Barr is not a skeptic, he is mostly a denialist. He has his head in the dirt and is flat out ignoring facts to promote his position.

 

[sangreal]

Well, I fully expect (because there's NO excuse if Obama wins and barely one now under Bush who supports second class status but civil unions) someone to introduce in congress a civil union bill, Obama will talk about how this is "true equality" and how "everybody should be happy" with this and the "need for healing along with happiness" and various platitudes that mean he's moving the country to thinking civil unions are enough. They're not.

I thought you are libertarian? The libertarian view (and Obama's IIRC) is that marriages are religious and shouldn't involve the government (for gay or straight marriages). The Government should only recognize non-discriminatory civil unions

 

[Ventrue]

Something I just learned: Unsurprisingly Bob Barr doesn't believe in Global Warming. :/

Maybe because it is a perfect example of something the free market can't be counted on to self-regulate and government intervention is required to solve?

 

[Gaborn]

I have no clue how you came to that conclusion. Obama supports every pro-LGBT issue out there. If Congress did pass a civil union bill I can't see why passing it would be a problem or how/why Obama would oppose any mythical same sex marriage bill.

That's the point though. He WOULD pass the civil union bill. A large part of the impetus for equal rights including marriage comes from the fact they don't exist. Obama giving us most of the federal rights to marriage except the title would weaken the case for full equality for a good while longer

You do realize most people don't share that level concern, right? (and Obama basically supports decriminalization mostly, just not legalization)

Absolutely I understand that most people don't see it as the 2nd most significant issue econmically and morally. and NO, Obama does NOT support decriminalization, he retracted his statements on that video, there's no "basically" about it. He opposes decriminalization, not just legalization.

Barr is not a skeptic, he is mostly a denialist. He has his head in the dirt and is flat out ignoring facts to promote his position.

Ok, as I said, I disagree with him on that, I still fail to see how a libertarian who believes or not in Global Warming is going to make differing decisions on the issue. It's still a question of whether the federal government should or shouldn't be involved and whether we should enter into a world treaty that hurts us.economically.

Sangreal - the libertarian view is that ideally the state shouldn't be involved in the marriage business at all, but fundamentally, since they are there is no choice but to treat every citizen equally and not make an arbitrary distinction based on gender. In other words, the government is not allowed to discriminate.

 

[Mandark]

Maybe because it is a perfect example of something the free market can't be counted on to self-regulate and government intervention is required to solve?

We have a winner!

Even the market-based solution is a confiscatory Pigovian tax. So rather than trying to choose the lesser among several evils of government regulation, the libertarian solution is often to go flat out Creationist on climate science.

 

[grandjedi6]

That's the point though. He WOULD pass the civil union bill. A large part of the impetus for equal rights including marriage comes from the fact they don't exist. Obama giving us most of the federal rights to marriage except the title would weaken the case for full equality for a good while longer

So you are angry at Obama's policy simply because he is pro-homosexual rights? What would you rather have him do, veto the bill and be anti-homosexual rights?

Absolutely I understand that most people don't see it as the 2nd most significant issue econmically and morally. and NO, Obama does NOT support decriminalization, he retracted his statements on that video, there's no "basically" about it. He opposes decriminalization, not just legalization.

He's against the drug war though and wants to lessen the punishment for drugs

Ok, as I said, I disagree with him on that, I still fail to see how a libertarian who believes or not in Global Warming is going to make differing decisions on the issue. It's still a question of whether the federal government should or shouldn't be involved and whether we should enter into a world treaty that hurts us.economically.

That really doesn't change the fact that the President has much control over climate policy and that Barr is willfully ignoring climate facts. He's trying to strengthen his economic argument by ignoring the science one.

 

[Mumei]

So you are angry at Obama's policy simply because he is pro-homosexual rights? What would you rather have him do, veto the bill and be anti-homosexual rights?

Eh.

I understand where's he coming from; on the marriage issue, not going far enough may be almost as bad as not going anywhere at all. If we receive civil unions, created as a separate class, it probably lessens the chance of ever getting marriage. When part of the reason for seeking marriage is for the cultural value it has (not just the legal and financial benefits), his concern there does make some sense.

Still, the question is between Obama and McCain, and the answer there is clear.

 

[Gaborn]

So you are angry at Obama's policy simply because he is pro-homosexual rights? What would you rather have him do, veto the bill and be anti-homosexual rights?

Of course not, I'd rather he fight for TRUE equality. If he has to bow to political pressure in those circumstances and sign a civil union bill that's one thing, but he's showing no political spine on this issue, he's not willing to take the tough stand on the issue (whether out of a personal belief or political expedience), he's instead conceding second class status without a fight. THAT is what irks me. Fight for me on true equality or don't claim to be some great champion of equal rights for all Americans.

He's against the drug war though and wants to lessen the punishment for drugs

That I'll grant you (though I'm not sure he's said it). Decriminalization no, maybe possibly looking at sometime down the line revising the federal punishment for drug possession, yes.

That really doesn't change the fact that the President has much control over climate policy and that Barr is willfully ignoring climate facts. He's trying to strengthen his economic argument by ignoring the science one.

Again though, how is a libertarian who believes in global warming going to make differing decisions? If there aren't any clear and obvious examples from a libertarian perspective (I don't think there are any off hand, but it's late). Speaking of, since it's 3:30 (almost) my time I'm going to bed, I'll respond tomorrow if you like though.

Mumei - Thank you, I agree, and I also agree on gay rights alone I'd rather have Obama than McCain.