Support NeoGAF

[masud]

The willful ignorance about the history of race relations in this country is stunning to me. Obama's polling numbers with black people are completely understandable and for the most part it has nothing to do with "black racism".

 

[mckmas8808]

racism includes racial prejudices which is making a decision about something before becoming aware of facts.

so when you don't want to vote for a white person because they are white and only want to vote for a black person because they are black then it IS racism. you are only seeing color and not who is the better person based on thier actions and goals.

In this case you would be right. That would make those black people racist. But lets get one thing straight here. Blacks vote DEM over REP 4 to 1. So its not like Black people would decide not to vote for a white man because he's white.

What do you think we have been voting for our entire lives? White people of course. And are some of you guys mad that Obama might get over 90% of the black vote?

 

[charlequin]

so when you don't want to vote for a white person because they are white and only want to vote for a black person because they are black then it IS racism.

Not wanting to vote for someone because they're white is an entirely distinct and separate issue from wanting to vote for someone because they're black. The former is inherently born of racial prejudice, the latter can be but is not inherently.

There's a rather significant social and cultural watermark effect generated by a member of a historically oppressed group achieving the nation's highest office for the first time which makes a certain measure of race-driven support legitimate where it would not be for, say, white males (who have not been historically oppressed and who have members of their demographic as President all the time.)

There's also a factor of group-relevant issues: there may be issues which affect a minority group more directly, which you might believe a member of said group would address more effectively or directly. (Look at the number of women who supported Hillary due to her strong stances on reproductive health issues as an example.)

I don't think there are actually that many people voting for Obama out of racial prejudice against whites, since said people would pretty much by definition never have voted in a Presidential election before. There are almost certainly people making a choice for Obama in superficial ways, although that doesn't meaningfully separate him from any other candidate who received support based on superficial, irrelevant qualities.

 

[VanMardigan]

*snip*

Ah, the double standard/understanding the context angle. Sort of like how it's ok for McCain to have cheated on his wife because he was a returning POW?

I'm not even saying that I don't understand WHY black people will vote for Obama, but it is what it is.

And are some of you guys mad that Obama might get over 90% of the black vote?

I'm not, we're talking about WHY that is.

 

[Karma Kramer]

Voting based mainly on the race of the candidate is racist. If the color of candidates skin is what matters to you then you are pretty damn stupid.

 

[maynerd]

Voting based mainly on the race of the candidate is racist. If the color of candidates skin is what matters to you then you are pretty damn stupid.

It's a good thing that stupid people don't vote then.

 

[avatar299]

Not wanting to vote for someone because they're white is an entirely distinct and separate issue from wanting to vote for someone because they're black. The former is inherently born of racial prejudice, the latter can be but is not inherently.

There's a rather significant social and cultural watermark effect generated by a member of a historically oppressed group achieving the nation's highest office for the first time which makes a certain measure of race-driven support legitimate where it would not be for, say, white males (who have not been historically oppressed and who have members of their demographic as President all the time.)

There's also a factor of group-relevant issues: there may be issues which affect a minority group more directly, which you might believe a member of said group would address more effectively or directly. (Look at the number of women who supported Hillary due to her strong stances on reproductive health issues as an example.)

I don't think there are actually that many people voting for Obama out of racial prejudice against whites, since said people would pretty much by definition never have voted in a Presidential election before. There are almost certainly people making a choice for Obama in superficial ways, although that doesn't meaningfully separate him from any other candidate who received support based on superficial, irrelevant qualities.

Like I said before, to many black people this is about pride in one's race.

The problem is there is a double standard in that pride. if a white guy says he is proud to be white and is voting McCain, people get suspicious. It's a tricky road, but I can see the argument someone can make that a black obama supporter voting out of race and color isn't very different from a McCain supporter voting out of race and color.

Of course i don't think most voters are like that, and It's why I get so pissed when people simplify McCain fanbase as just being full of closet racists.

 

[soul creator]

Why can't I have a White History Month?

 

[Gaborn]

In this case you would be right. That would make those black people racist. But lets get one thing straight here. Blacks vote DEM over REP 4 to 1. So its not like Black people would decide not to vote for a white man because he's white.

What do you think we have been voting for our entire lives? White people of course. And are some of you guys mad that Obama might get over 90% of the black vote?

Right, but as you said on the last page

No cot damn! Because they just never cared to vote for whatever reason.

My point is some black people never voted before because they didn't care to, but now they feel inspired to because a black man is voting.

That doesn't make them racist.

In other words, for SOME blacks (I never used the words all blacks, or most blacks, or anything close to suggesting this is generally true of all blacks) it's a matter of racism. They refused to vote before because they didn't want to support a white candidate, and now they are voting for a black candidate. Because he's black.

 

[The Librarian]

It's a good thing that stupid people don't vote then.

Zing!

 

[mckmas8808]

Not wanting to vote for someone because they're white is an entirely distinct and separate issue from wanting to vote for someone because they're black. The former is inherently born of racial prejudice, the latter can be but is not inherently.

There's a rather significant social and cultural watermark effect generated by a member of a historically oppressed group achieving the nation's highest office for the first time which makes a certain measure of race-driven support legitimate where it would not be for, say, white males (who have not been historically oppressed and who have members of their demographic as President all the time.)

There's also a factor of group-relevant issues: there may be issues which affect a minority group more directly, which you might believe a member of said group would address more effectively or directly. (Look at the number of women who supported Hillary due to her strong stances on reproductive health issues as an example.)

I don't think there are actually that many people voting for Obama out of racial prejudice against whites, since said people would pretty much by definition never have voted in a Presidential election before. There are almost certainly people making a choice for Obama in superficial ways, although that doesn't meaningfully separate him from any other candidate who received support based on superficial, irrelevant qualities.

THANK YOU!!! *kisses him/her on cheek*

I couldnt have said it better.

 

[mckmas8808]

Voting based mainly on the race of the candidate is racist. If the color of candidates skin is what matters to you then you are pretty damn stupid.

So are the people that voted for Hillary because shes a woman, sexist?

Are the people that voted for JFK because he was a catholic, bigots?

Are the people that will vote for Mccain because he is older than 65, ageist?

 

[Gaborn]

THANK YOU!!! *kisses him/her on cheek*

I couldnt have said it better.

You didn't.

No cot damn! Because they just never cared to vote for whatever reason.

My point is some black people never voted before because they didn't care to, but now they feel inspired to because a black man is voting.

That doesn't make them racist.

I don't think there are actually that many people voting for Obama out of racial prejudice against whites, since said people would pretty much by definition never have voted in a Presidential election before. There are almost certainly people making a choice for Obama in superficial ways, although that doesn't meaningfully separate him from any other candidate who received support based on superficial, irrelevant qualities.

 

[numble]

Right, but as you said on the last page

In other words, for SOME blacks (I never used the words all blacks, or most blacks, or anything close to suggesting this is generally true of all blacks) it's a matter of racism. They refused to vote before because they didn't want to support a white candidate, and now they are voting for a black candidate. Because he's black.

How many new black voters have you actually talked to? As somebody who's been out in the field in 4 states so far, I have NEVER encountered this thought process among new black registrants, and I've registered a ton of them. The pitch to get new people to register (regardless of race) is usually a combination of explaining how every vote actually does matter and how much a difference it is between who gets into office. It is the strong field plan, not some strange notion of reverse black racism that is the reason why the campaign is churning out gigantic numbers of new registrants.

 

[adamsappel]

Actually my middle name is Carl. My great grandfather was a Russian immigrant and it was his father's name.

I didn't know you were black.

 

[Gaborn]

I didn't know you were black.

Neither did I.

 

[VanMardigan]

So are the people that voted for Hillary because shes a woman, sexist?

Are the people that voted for JFK because he was a catholic, bigots?

Are the people that will vote for Mccain because he is older than 65, ageist?

Yes, Yes, and ....................yep.

 

[avatar299]

Neither did I.

oh shit you know what this means

Spoiler

you can say the n-word

 

[mckmas8808]

Right, but as you said on the last page


In other words, for SOME blacks (I never used the words all blacks, or most blacks, or anything close to suggesting this is generally true of all blacks) it's a matter of racism. They refused to vote before because they didn't want to support a white candidate, and now they are voting for a black candidate. Because he's black.

I see why people get pissed when they talk to you. I never said those black people didnt vote because they didnt like white folks.

 

[Gaborn]

I see why people get pissed when they talk to you. I never said those black people didnt vote because they didnt like white folks.

Precisely. (he was suggesting that)

 

[GhaleonEB]

In other words, for SOME blacks (I never used the words all blacks, or most blacks, or anything close to suggesting this is generally true of all blacks) it's a matter of racism. They refused to vote before because they didn't want to support a white candidate, and now they are voting for a black candidate. Because he's black.

You need to bear this in mind: Kerry won ~88% of the black vote in 2004. Blacks are overwhelmingly Democrats already. So Obama's ~95% support isn't that much of a swing.

I mention this to try and provide some measureable behind the "some" in this statement. While that's a factor, I think it's pretty small.

 

[Tyrone Slothrop]

The problem is there is a double standard in that pride. if a white guy says he is proud to be white and is voting McCain, people get suspicious. It's a tricky road, but I can see the argument someone can make that a black obama supporter voting out of race and color isn't very different from a McCain supporter voting out of race and color.

showing any semblance of pride in being white will have you flogged and castrated

 

[Kusagari]

Right, but as you said on the last page


In other words, for SOME blacks (I never used the words all blacks, or most blacks, or anything close to suggesting this is generally true of all blacks) it's a matter of racism. They refused to vote before because they didn't want to support a white candidate, and now they are voting for a black candidate. Because he's black.

Wow that's a pretty big ass leap of logic. They REFUSED to vote because they didn't want to support a black candidate? Just because Obama got some blacks to vote doesn't mean it's racism for them. It just means they care more. It's like saying young people are biased against old uncharismatic people because Obama inspires them to vote unlike Kerry or Gore.

 

[ShOcKwAvE]

Basing any decision on a person's race, regardless of whether your race has a history of oppression, is racism.

If a black votes for a black because he is black, that's racist.
If a black votes for a white because he is white, that's racist.
If a white votes for a white because he is white, that's racist.
If a white votes for a black because he is black, that's racist.

Let's be clear: voting based on race doesn't mean you hate the other race, it just means you think the outcome will be better if one wins over the other. Socially, some people (myself included) want Obama to win in part because it will destroy the imaginary barrier that blacks in the USA can achieve the highest office. For me it's a little like, "let's do this so I can stop hearing about the barrier." In other words, once a black person holds the office, people will know that it has always been possible. Of course his race is the last reason I am voting for him, but I don't deny that it adds something to the decision.

Edit - I also want to apologize for continuing to veer this thread off politics toward racism, but I wanted to add $.02

 

[Smiles and Cries]

this race thing is not old yet?

Clinton not the keynote on tuesday worries me, that she may show up the next day as VP

 

[Gaborn]

You need to bear this in mind: Kerry won ~88% of the black vote in 2004. Blacks are overwhelmingly Democrats already. So Obama's ~95% support isn't that much of a swing.

I mention this to try and provide some measureable behind the "some" in this statement. While that's a factor, I think it's pretty small.

And I never said otherwise. About 3 pages back I replied to someone who was sardonically wondering why Obama hadn't secured racists whites with a comment that he had already secured racist blacks. I made no mention of numbers of racist blacks, but I feel comfortable in claiming a majority of them are supporting Obama, and they're probably a small portion of the total black vote, but they're there.

 

[avatar299]

Wow that's a pretty big ass leap of logic. They REFUSED to vote because they didn't want to support a black candidate? Just because Obama got some blacks to vote doesn't mean it's racism for them. It just means they care more. It's like saying young people are biased against old uncharismatic people because Obama inspires them to vote unlike Kerry or Gore.

huh?

and there is a lot of young people who hate old people. Just read the primary threads

"Old people shouldn't be allowed to vote"
"Old people should always fuck up. Fucking racists"
"Old people should die"

etc etc

 

[The Librarian]

race race race black racist race white race racist white racist racist race race black white race.

 

[reilo]

Anyone that believes that the black population wouldn't have voted for the democratic candidate - no matter what their race - with a 90% majority are just fooling themselves.

 

[avatar299]

Anyone that believes that the black population wouldn't have voted for the democratic candidate - no matter what their race - with a 90% majority are just fooling themselves.

If Obama lost, After Hillary commented on MLK, after her accusations of sexism, after john Edwards...

And I don't think it's a question of where black people will vote, but the amount

 

[VanMardigan]

You need to bear this in mind: Kerry won ~88% of the black vote in 2004. Blacks are overwhelmingly Democrats already. So Obama's ~95% support isn't that much of a swing.

I mention this to try and provide some measureable behind the "some" in this statement. While that's a factor, I think it's pretty small.

Yeah, this is a very good point. Also, Hillary Clinton would likely have gotten well over 90% of the black vote. Closer to Barrack's 95% given the popularity they have (had?) with blacks, especially Bill.

 

[Smiles and Cries]

1. What are you called if you vote for Obama because he was born in the same state of Hawaii?

2. What about voting for Obama if you are a White Sox fan?

3. What about voting for hime because Michelle Oh Mama?

 

[GhaleonEB]

And I never said otherwise.

I did not contradict you or claim that you had said otherwise. Just adding some numbers to the discussion.

I know, I was just getting it on the record how this discussion started and that we basically agree.

Word.

 

[Gaborn]

I did not contradict you or claim that you had said otherwise.

I know, I was just getting it on the record how this discussion started and that we basically agree.

 

[avatar299]

1. What are you called if you vote for Obama because he was born in the same state of Hawaii?

2. What about voting for Obama if you are a White Sox fan?

3. What about voting for hime because Michelle Oh Mama?

1. Sexy
2. Traitor
3. Homewrecker

 

[soul creator]

1. What are you called if you vote for Obama because he was born in the same state of Hawaii?

2. What about voting for Obama if you are a White Sox fan?

3. What about voting for hime because Michelle Oh Mama?

statist
soxist
stalker

 

[Tyrone Slothrop]

surprsingly a lot of hillary's super delegates were black. sheila lee jackson, that young congressman from ohio, others.

anecdotal evidence ahoy but a i know some black voters who didnt vote for O in the primaries. so it may not be quite the landslide it'd seem.

 

[charlequin]

Ah, the double standard/understanding the context angle. Sort of like how it's ok for McCain to have cheated on his wife because he was a returning POW?

No, not really. Most reasonable people understand both that context is vital for understanding all situations in life, and that some contexts do in fact alter the ethical vaue of actions while others do not. Conservative moral principles acknowledge this just as much as liberal ones (for example, self-defense or defense of personal property as a mitigating factor in assault is a principle based entirely on context) but for some reason it's still a conservative talking point to call out context as irrelevant.

Black Americans considering it a benefit that Obama is black is justified by context because the things America's society and government have done historically to blacks due to their race have yet to be fully systematically remedied, and therefore a black President would be a huge symbolic victory. When it represents only a greater appreciation for a specific candidate rather than a disguise for active dislike of a different demographic, this sort of affinity politics isn't inherently dangerous or wrong: it's okay for Southerners to like a candidate better because he's from the South, or Irish Catholics to have an affinity for JFK, or for young people to support Obama as the "young candidate," the same way. It just doesn't make sense for someone to be like "I like this candidate because he's a white guy" because every candidate in history is a white guy.

McCain's actions aren't justified by the context because they have nothing to do with each other. :lol His marital vows were a promise to his wife not to harm her with disrespectful and deceitful behavior, and nothing about him being a POW impacts that. Context that changed this situation would have to apply to the relationship itself -- for example, very few people would as harshly criticize someone who cheated after enduring repeated philandering by their spouse.

showing any semblance of pride in being white will have you flogged and castrated

Pride is a kind of silly word to use in the context of being white, because "black pride" was a term invented in response to an explicit government program of belittling and discriminating against blacks. The idea was that instead of listening to the segregationist government when it told blacks to be ashamed, they should instead be proud because they were just as good as whites. It was also a way of inventing a new ancestral identity for American blacks because most were the descendants of slaves, which meant that their actual nation of origin, family names, etc. had been stripped away.

The other problem with "white pride" is that it doesn't mean much because white is such a huge category. You'll note that almost no one will get on someone's case for having "Irish pride," "Italian pride," "German pride," or any other pride in a specific ancestral identity, even when that identity is one made up entirely of "white" people.

 

[masud]

Basing any decision on a person's race, regardless of whether your race has a history of oppression, is racism.

If a black votes for a black because he is black, that's racist.
If a black votes for a white because he is white, that's racist.
If a white votes for a white because he is white, that's racist.
If a white votes for a black because he is black, that's racist.

Let's be clear: voting based on race doesn't mean you hate the other race, it just means you think the outcome will be better if one wins over the other. Socially, some people (myself included) want Obama to win in part because it will destroy the imaginary barrier that blacks in the USA can achieve the highest office. For me it's a little like, "let's do this so I can stop hearing about the barrier." In other words, once a black person holds the office, people will know that it has always been possible. Of course his race is the last reason I am voting for him, but I don't deny that it adds something to the decision.

Edit - I also want to apologize for continuing to veer this thread off politics toward racism, but I wanted to add $.02

:lol
And Gaborn even your initial joke is wrong. Most black racists wouldn't vote for Obama or anyone because that would make them a willing participant in Amerikkkan government.

 

[ShOcKwAvE]

:lol

Technically possible.

 

[masud]

Technically possible.

It hasn't even been technically possible for that long.

 

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Pride is a kind of silly word to use in the context of being white, because "black pride" was a term invented in response to an explicit government program of belittling and discriminating against blacks. The idea was that instead of listening to the segregationist government when it told blacks to be ashamed, they should instead be proud because they were just as good as whites. It was also a way of inventing a new ancestral identity for American blacks because most were the descendants of slaves, which meant that their actual nation of origin, family names, etc. had been stripped away.

The other problem with "white pride" is that it doesn't mean much because white is such a huge category. You'll note that almost no one will get on someone's case for having "Irish pride," "Italian pride," "German pride," or any other pride in a specific ancestral identity, even when that identity is one made up entirely of "white" people.

yeah i know what you mean. but in modern times black pride is more about respecting where you came from ancestrally. if you watch those black pride forums on cspan they teach young blacks that you should take pride in your african heritage and what have you.

proud of your anglo saxon roots? ruh oh.

i mean, i don't care either way. but there's a double standard. and its not just blacks, it goes with asians, hispanics, ect ect. i remember this girl in high school wrote asian pride on her backpack and i busted laughing knowing that if somebody wrote "white pride" on theirs they'd be called into the office.

 

[VanMardigan]

*snip*

Alright, so this time it's ok for them, but what about the election after that? Or the one after that? Is there any point at which you would think that blacks voting for a presidential candidate BECAUSE he/she is black won't be justified? Or is there an eternal free pass for them to vote for black presidential candidates now? I think that's the problem when you try to rationalize double standards.

If you believe a black presidential candidate is entitled to 95% plus of the black vote from here on out because there is a context for them to do so, I'll disagree.

 

[masud]

yeah i know what you mean. but in modern times black pride is more about respecting where you came from ancestrally.

No, black pride is and always has been a reaction to the notion that black people are inferior. The respecting ancestry aspect is an attempt to regain the culture and history black people were deprived of.

Alright, so this time it's ok for them, but what about the election after that? Or the one after that? Is there any point at which you would think that blacks voting for a presidential candidate BECAUSE he/she is black won't be justified? Or is there an eternal free pass for them to vote for black presidential candidates now? I think that's the problem when you try to rationalize double standards.

If you believe a black presidential candidate is entitled to 95% plus of the black vote from here on out because there is a context for them to do so, I'll disagree.

Eternal free pass? You do realize that allot of the people that fought in the civil rights movement are still alive right?

 

[Gaborn]

:lol
And Gaborn even your initial joke is wrong. Most black racists wouldn't vote for Obama or anyone because that would make them a willing participant in Amerikkkan government.

Ok, even if we accept that as true, how about this statement? "of the black racists that will vote for President of the United States, a majority will support Obama rather than McCain"

 

[Smiles and Cries]

but how is Obama black?

would it not be racist to call Obama black since the guy had a white mother?

I just don't get this whole racial thing... its like people are really strange about it.

If you are so busy posting away that blacks voting for Obama is racist then in the same stupid judgement calling a man who had a white mother black should be considered racist no?



damn this thread make my head hurt

 

[masud]

Ok, even if we accept that as true, how about this statement? "of the black racists that will vote for President of the United States, a majority will support Obama rather than McCain"

Yes, I guess you are right about those couple dozen people.

 

[VanMardigan]

Eternal free pass? You do realize that allot of the people that fought in the civil rights movement are still alive right?

You missed my point, but I'll bite.

Ok, so they're still alive, so now we wait until they are all dead before we can call voting because of race by black people racist? Or do we wait 50 years after they have died? What is the ratio, the rationale, the formula for deciding when that action would be racist?

Again, that's the problem with applying double standards.

 

[GhaleonEB]

Yes, I guess you are right about those couple dozen people.

Yeah. We'd just established that this is a very small proportion of blacks, not to mention the overall elecrotate.

 

[masud]

Again, that's the problem with applying double standards.

And your problem is trying to explain away a complex social issue using logic and no perspective whatsoever.