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[Tamanon]

Taxes aren't a bad thing. In a perfect world you want as few as possible, sure. But when you're faced with the choice of tax-and-spend or borrow-and-spend, tax and spend is better for the overall economy.

 

[Frank the Great]

Maybe I'm too new in the field of politics, and I don't have a proper understanding of how things work in this country (I'm only 18), but what is so godawful about taxes? It just seems that every election season, the only thing the Republicans have going for them is their promise of "no excessive taxes omg!" and the average Joe of America blindly follows it because they hate to see their money taken away.

But really though, in this day and age and especially with our country the way it is right now, shouldn't a responsible American logically feel that increased taxes means more funding for needed and necessary programs to lift our country back on top again? We need these programs: we need health care, we need job creation programs, we need basically a subsidized New Deal, if you think about it. To deny the funding FOR these programs, you come off as a selfish and altogether elitist individual.

I just don't get why taxes are necessarily a bad thing.

most people are selfish and short sighted, and only care about having more money in their pockets.

 

[Sharp]

Maybe I'm too new in the field of politics, and I don't have a proper understanding of how things work in this country (I'm only 18), but what is so godawful about taxes? It just seems that every election season, the only thing the Republicans have going for them is their promise of "no excessive taxes omg!" and the average Joe of America blindly follows it because they hate to see their money taken away.

But really though, in this day and age and especially with our country the way it is right now, shouldn't a responsible American logically feel that increased taxes means more funding for needed and necessary programs to lift our country back on top again? We need these programs: we need health care, we need job creation programs, we need basically a subsidized New Deal, if you think about it. To deny the funding FOR these programs, you come off as a selfish and altogether elitist individual.

I just don't get why taxes are necessarily a bad thing.

They're not necessarily a bad thing, but when food and oil prices are rising and tuition costs are at an all-time high and the housing market is dead and people overall don't have a lot of disposable cash the government's carving large swathes in what remains is probably not so appealing to a lot of them.

 

[NewLib]

most people are selfish and short sighted, and only care about having more money in their pockets.

Yeah I will remind the middle class family they are being selfish that is having trouble sending their kids to college now because of rising costs of tuition plus watching their one huge asset (their house) plunge in value and the fact they are now spending 1000s of dollars more a year on gas.

Really what makes them think they should have money when our government is such an efficient machine. (Dont even go B-B-B-But BUSH! Yeah he has been particular terrible, but US Government has always been incredibly wasteful.)

Edit: Damn you, Sharp and your quick trigger fingers!

 

[DeathbyVolcano]

They're not necessarily a bad thing, but when food and oil prices are rising and tuition costs are at an all-time high and the housing market is dead and people overall don't have a lot of disposable cash the government's carving large swathes in what remains is probably not so appealing to a lot of people.

Again though, if you have faith in your government (lolz, I know), wouldn't it be logical to think that in so following the taxation process that these problems will decrease? I know it'd be a miracle if they full-out "end," but funding programs to try and fix these programs is a sacrifice I would think most people would want to make.

 

[Frank the Great]

Yeah I will remind the middle class family they are being selfish that is having trouble sending their kids to college now because of rising costs of tuition plus watching their one huge asset (their house) plunge in value and the fact they are now spending 1000s of dollars more a year on gas.

Really what makes them think they should have money when our government is such an efficient machine. (Dont even go B-B-B-But BUSH! Yeah he has been particular terrible, but US Government has always been incredibly wasteful.)

Edit: Damn you, Sharp and your quick trigger fingers!

if people actually thought about the issue, 90% of them would realize that the tax increases wouldn't apply to them and would not care about it.

my point is that because of people's selfish nature and their short-sightedness, they hear the words "tax increase" and immediately run away

 

[gcubed]

its not so much the rise in taxes, but the faith in the government to spend your money wisely

 

[NewLib]

if people actually thought about the issue, 90% of them would realize that the tax increases wouldn't apply to them and would not care about it.

my point is that because of people's selfish nature and their short-sightedness, they hear the words "tax increase" and immediately run away

What issue. I thought we are talking about why the average Americans dont like tax increases. I didnt know we are speaking of a specific tax increase.

The point is the government needs to cut spending and be more efficient BEFORE they propose new costly ideas. Then maybe I trust them with my money.

I actually like the idea of a website where if Congress suggests new legislation (or existing legislation), I can type in my income and find out the exact amount of money it personally costs me. Then I can decide whether I think its worth it.

 

[Incognito]

 

[Frank the Great]

What issue. I thought we are talking about why the average Americans dont like tax increases. I didnt know we are speaking of a specific tax increase.

well, seeing as how this is an election thread, i was relating it to obama's economic plan, which includes tax CUTS for middle and lower class families. but because there are tax increases for those over $200k and for those invested in the market, the popular opinion is that obama will raise people's taxes...even though 90% of the voters wouldn't be negatively affected at all.

EDIT: :lol @ "you kids get off my lawn"

 

[NewLib]

well, seeing as how this is an election thread, i was relating it to obama's economic plan, which includes tax CUTS for middle and lower class families. but because there are tax increases for those over $200k and for those invested in the market, the popular opinion is that obama will raise people's taxes...even though 90% of the voters wouldn't be negatively affected at all.

I do think we need to raise the amount we consider as high income. 200k for a family with a few kids isnt as much as people think it is.

 

[Frank the Great]

I do think we need to raise the amount we consider as high income. 200k for a family with a few kids isnt as much as people think it is.

as someone who grew up with parents making about $60k combined, $200k a year is A LOT. we have a house, and live pretty damn comfortably...in new jersey, which has a really high cost of living.

also, the fact is that the people making over $200k have like 90% of the nation's wealth. many of the people who will experience tax increases will be making WELL over $200k anyway.

 

[Y2Kev]

I will NOt be voting for any Democratic? party member who wants to raise TAXES.

 

[Tamanon]

Maybe bump the bracket up to 300k.

 

[NewLib]

as someone who grew up with parents making about $60k combined, $200k a year is A LOT. we have a house, and live pretty damn comfortably...in new jersey, which has a really high cost of living.

also, the fact is that the people making over $200k have like 90% of the nation's wealth. many of the people who will experience tax increases will be making WELL over $200k anyway.

I wasnt saying dont tax the rich people. I just think the bar needs to be raised to about $400k for high income.

200k isnt that much if you have say two kids in college which costs you 40-60 grand in tuition right there. Then all the other expenses. I know a few people around that 200k barrier and I would describe them as middle class families.

 

[typhonsentra]

Gotta love that series.

 

[Sharp]

I do think we need to raise the amount we consider as high income. 200k for a family with a few kids isnt as much as people think it is.

It is a lot if the family uses its money properly, at least unless you are in an area with an extremely high cost of living, have a lot of kids, or have a severe chronic medical condition. That's not to say that everyone who makes $200k+ annually does have a lot of disposable income, but that's generally due to lifestyle decisions on their part--nice house and car, perhaps some expensive vacations, etc.

 

[Azih]

200k isnt that much if you have say two kids in college which costs you 40-60 grand in tuition right there. Then all the other expenses. I know a few people around that 200k barrier and I would describe them as middle class families.

Urm, they're in the top 2.6% or so of households as of 2005. That's a some skewed middle class.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Household_income_in_the_United_States

 

[Evander]

I wasnt saying dont tax the rich people. I just think the bar needs to be raised to about $400k for high income.

200k isnt that much if you have say two kids in college which costs you 40-60 grand in tuition right there. Then all the other expenses. I know a few people around that 200k barrier and I would describe them as middle class families.

I don't think I really want the government to make special exceptions for folks paying for their kids' college tuition. College is an optional thing, and I'd rather see the government have the money needed to actually fund mandatory education properly, rather than making allowances for furthered education to families that alright have a comfortable quality of life.

Taking out loans for college is not the end of the world.





I say this having come from a middle class family (sub 200k, but middleclass none the less), where my parents paid for my college.

 

[TDG]

most people are selfish and short sighted, and only care about having more money in their pockets.

Well, it's that, and I think a lot of people dislike the government and don't want to give their money to it.

I always enjoy talking to my rich republican friends, the same ones who were pushing for the war in Iraq, and hearing them whine about the possibility of paying higher taxes to actual pay for the war they wanted so badly.

A lot of these people have no sense of real patriotism, sacrifice, or responsibility. I always chuckle when I read about people running to enlist in the army, buy bonds, or planting freedom gardens in the early 40s, compared with now when having to pay taxes is thought of has the greatest tragedy of modern times.

 

[Evander]

Well, it's that, and I think a lot of people dislike the government and don't want to give their money to it.

I always enjoy talking to my rich republican friends, the same ones who were pushing for the war in Iraq, and hearing them whine about the possibility of paying higher taxes to actual pay for the war they wanted so badly.

A lot of these people have no sense of real patriotism, sacrifice, or responsibility. I always chuckle when I read about people running to enlist in the army, buy bonds, or planting freedom gardens in the early 40s, compared with now when having to pay taxes is thought of has the greatest tragedy of modern times.

Agreed.

My grandfather was an immigrant, and he was never happier than when he was paying taxes. He was SO proud to be paying in to the country which had treated himself and his family so well.

 

[adamsappel]

I really wish someone had proposed war bonds as a way to help pay for the Iraq War. Then you'd see how tepid the support really is. Put your money where your mouth is, Mr. More-Patriotic-Than-Thou.

 

[Mumei]

Just heard on MSNBC that the new Gallup poll will show a 7 point lead.

(some guy from Gallup said it)

 

[Cheebs]

Apparently when Obama was visiting a hospital today doing his economic tour when he saw a nurse pull out a needle he freaked out and asked her if she was going to draw blood from the patient because he gets faint at the sight of blood. :lol

 

[ralexand]

Was shocked to read on Rasmussen that neither Bush nor Kerry ever had a lead of more than 2 in 2004. Obama's lead is about 6 now.

 

[syllogism]

Apparently when Obama was visiting a hospital today doing his economic tour when he saw a nurse pull out a needle he freaked out and asked her if she was going to draw blood from the patient because he gets faint at the sight of blood. :lol

He was just kidding and that's not exactly what happened

Was shocked to read on Rasmussen that neither Bush nor Kerry ever had a lead of more than 2 in 2004. Obama's lead is about 6 now.

He said neither of them ever lead by 8 points, which is Obama's lead without leaners.

 

[Clevinger]

Apparently when Obama was visiting a hospital today doing his economic tour when he saw a nurse pull out a needle he freaked out and asked her if she was going to draw blood from the patient because he gets faint at the sight of blood. :lol

uh oh

wussy-gate

 

[Mumei]

Was shocked to read on Rasmussen that neither Bush nor Kerry ever had a lead of more than 2 in 2004. Obama's lead is about 6 now.

Even better:

The Rasmussen Reports daily Presidential Tracking Poll for Tuesday [July 10] shows Barack Obama attracts 48% of the vote while John McCain earns 40%. When “leaners” are included, Obama leads 50% to 43%.

 

[Cheebs]

Was shocked to read on Rasmussen that neither Bush nor Kerry ever had a lead of more than 2 in 2004. Obama's lead is about 6 now.

I checked their archive. Kerry was leading by 2 at this point in Rasmussen's iirc.

Even better:

7 is pretty close to 6.



lolz 2% of blacks are less likely to vote obama cause he is black

 

[gcubed]

I wasnt saying dont tax the rich people. I just think the bar needs to be raised to about $400k for high income.

200k isnt that much if you have say two kids in college which costs you 40-60 grand in tuition right there. Then all the other expenses. I know a few people around that 200k barrier and I would describe them as middle class families.

thats some fucked up middle class if you ask me... no matter where you live

 

[bob_arctor]

uh oh

wussy-gate

:lol I really wouldn't put it past the usual suspects.

 

[The Lamonster]

This is exciting. Obama landslide '08?

Barring any huge new controversies or assassinations, I'd say so

 

[Cheebs]

This is exciting. Obama landslide '08?

Barring any huge new controversies or assassinations, I'd say so

He'll win but we can't expect his post-victory bump to last forever.

Btw:

 

[Sharp]

What happened to McCain there? Or is it just Hillary supporters switching over?

 

[Tamanon]

Might be an effect of McCain going head-to-head with Obama/Clinton on Tuesday night and failing miserably. He really hasn't brought things back to him on a positive note yet.

Also some Hillary folks who said they'd vote McCain changed.

 

[Cheebs]

What happened to McCain there? Or is it just Hillary supporters switching over?

Gallup doesn't release their exact calculation but rasmussen, who has the exact same 7 point lead says its due to the party unifying. That Obama went from 72% support from dems to 81%.

 

[TDG]

lolz 2% of blacks are less likely to vote obama cause he is black

:lol
Actually, I know several black people who don't want to vote for him either because they think he'll get assassinated, or because they're worried that if he messes up we won't have another black president for a long time.

 

[Sharp]

I have to admit I am surprised at how quickly the party seems to be unifying, given how divisive the primaries were. I expected it to happen eventually, but we're only like three days out from Hillary's concession speech!

 

[Cheebs]

I have to admit I am surprised at how quickly the party seems to be unifying, given how divisive the primaries were. I expected it to happen eventually, but we're only like three days out from Hillary's concession speech!

there is still about a 20% holdout, which is significant still.

:lol
Actually, I know several black people who don't want to vote for him either because they think he'll get assassinated, or because they're worried that if he messes up we won't have another black president for a long time.

Deval Patrick? Isn't he considered a rising star in the party?

And who knows, that blind black governer from NY could run too! :lol I love his bluntness "I cheat on my wife and do drugs? So what?" and he made a joke about jews in his inauguration lol.

 

[scorcho]

i'm to lazy to look back at CA's bitter tears post about how the party was being torn apart during the RBC meeting.

oh heck, i'll just guffaw at the memory

there is still about a 20% holdout, which is significant still.

aggregation error on your part. it's a figure that's roughly on par with self-declared republican's view of McCain.

Obama's figure is likely to increase as time goes on as well.

 

[worldrunover]

I have to admit I am surprised at how quickly the party seems to be unifying, given how divisive the primaries were. I expected it to happen eventually, but we're only like three days out from Hillary's concession speech!

It's not overly hard when John McCain is the opponent.

Same kind of deal with all those repubs distraught over McCain winning the GOP nomination. They got over their bitter tears quickly enough.

 

[thekad]

lolz 2% of blacks are less likely to vote obama cause he is black

Interesting, this directly contradicts the polling of the Democratic primaries, unless I'm reading it wrong. We'll see if it plays out like this.

 

[Cheebs]

Interesting, this directly contradicts the polling of the Democratic primaries, unless I'm reading it wrong. We'll see if it plays out like this.

Very few would admit racism to a pollster.

aggregation error on your part. it's a figure that's roughly on par with self-declared republican's view of McCain.

Obama's figure is likely to increase as time goes on as well.

He doesnt need all 18-20% back. That will never happen. Kerry had all but 12%. If Obama keeps it at 10% by November he should be solid since indy's like him more than they liked kerry it seems like.

 

[Mumei]

Edit: I can't get the table to work here. =(

http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/2008/06/liberal-conservative-rankings-done.html

I found this interesting, especially the apparent change for McCain - and how Obama has moved noticeably to the left in this most recent Congress.

 

[thekad]

Very few would admit racism to a pollster.

Not in Kentucky! :lol

 

[Cheebs]

Edit: I can't get the table to work here. =(

http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/2008/06/liberal-conservative-rankings-done.html

I found this interesting, especially the apparent change for McCain - and how Obama has moved noticeably to the left in this most recent Congress.

Obama has not moved left. It's just due to the election he only shows up to congress when there is a bill thats very important to democrats that needs to be passed. So he is "missing" all these so called moderate and non-partisan votes which makes his voting record more liberal than it is in reality.

 

[Beer Monkey]

Not in Kentucky! :lol

He said he wuz a pollster but I'm pretty sure he was a revenuer lookin' for my 'shine.

 

[scorcho]

btw Cheebs, my friend's recent move and start date for the Obama Fellows thing has me wondering - how'd your interview go, and did you get offered a position?

i think my friend mentioned that ~7,000 Fellows were accepted nationwide. i have no idea about the application number though.

 

[syllogism]

There's no way Obama is getting 90% of "democrats", though if he did it would be a rather crushing victory. Remember, there are a lot of more self identifying "democrats" out there than four years ago.

 

[Cheebs]

There's no way Obama is getting 90% of "democrats", though if he did it would be a rather crushing victory

Kerry got 88%, why cant Obama improve on that?


And yeah, I got accepted. Training is pretty soon.