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PoliGAF Interim Thread of USA General Elections (DAWN OF THE VEEP)

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B

bob_arctor

Tough_Smooth
Just saw that clip of McCain on the Today show. I think his smug little "Anyone who understands the facts on the ground" (knows the surge is working) comment pissed me off more than anything. Condescending ass.
 
G

GashPrex

NeoGaf-Gold™ Member
Stumpokapow said:
Given that you JUST misread a chart, jumped to a completely incorrect conclusion, and decried something as "incredibly disgusting", one would think you'd bow out from the feeding frenzy for a little while.

It's also strange that just minutes after calling regressive taxation "incredibly disgusting" you argued that you're "not sold on" progressive taxation.
Click to expand...

No I did not call a regressive tax disgusting, I called what I thought would be paying $300 as opposed to $1000 disgusting - not the policy itself. There is a difference between a personal feeling about a policy, and a personal feeling about how it will impact you.

I dislike the social manipulation that is done with credits/deductions/depreciation/AGI and progressive brackets at arbitrary numbers. Furthermore, the ATM is just bizarre and archaic.

I don't think the tax code should be used in this manner, but that's been our policy for a while, so that's what we stick with.
 
P

pxleyes

Banned
bob_arctor said:
Just saw that clip of McCain on the Today show. I think his smug little "Anyone who understands the facts on the ground" (knows the surge is working) comment pissed me off more than anything. Condescending ass.
Click to expand...
I keep saying it but that is why he is going to lose.

Issues mean nothing to "average" voters beyond their core values. If they see someone talking down to them (McCain) versus someone who is trying to extend a hand to help (Obama) the choice will be clear.
 
C

Cyan

Banned
Stinkles said:
Yes, in a magical world where US companies given such breaks spend all that extra money hiring US workers and buying US products. But guess what really happens?
Click to expand...
All of the extra money has to go toward US stuff? That seems unlikely. Again, I imagine theres a threshold for what percentage of a tax cut could be lost overseas and still benefit the US economy as a whole.
 
C

Cheebs

Member
Chuck Todd says Obama's team internally predicted his boost from winning the nom would be a 10% lead on McCain. Hasn't happened yet.
 
H

Hitokage

Setec Astronomer
Cyan said:
Huh? It's not that hard to understand. Less money taxed means more money out there in the economy means a stronger economy, more jobs, etc.

If you take the idea too far, it fails. Zero taxes would mean zero government jobs, zero non-private infrastructure, and so on. So there must be some ideal crossover point which maximizes the strength of the economy.

Then there's the issue of necessary stuff provided by the government. The courts, national defense, all sorts of other stuff depending on your political views. Do we really want to maximize the economy at the expense of the things listed above?

So while it's a complex issue, believing that lowering taxes improves the economy does not make one an idiot.
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It's not so much the idea that lowering tax rates might improve the economy, it's the belief that the taxation rate is the only variable in an economy such that higher is automatically always bad and lower is automatically always good.
 
C

Cyan

Banned
Cheebs said:
Chuck Todd says Obama's team internally predicted his boost from winning the nom would be a 10% lead on McCain. Hasn't happened yet.
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Could still easily happen. 538 says the average bump so far is 5%.

Hitokage said:
It's not so much the idea that lowering tax rates might improve the economy, it's the belief that the taxation rate is the only variable in an economy such that higher is automatically always bad and lower is automatically always good.
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Yeah, reducing that kind of complex issue to sound bites doesn't usually work very well.
 
B

bob_arctor

Tough_Smooth
Cheebs said:
Chuck Todd says Obama's team internally predicted his boost from winning the nom would be a 10% lead on McCain. Hasn't happened yet.
Click to expand...

Hey now, "Don't matter if they came home"-gate just happened.
 
G

GhaleonEB

Member
Cheebs said:
Chuck Todd says Obama's team internally predicted his boost from winning the nom would be a 10% lead on McCain. Hasn't happened yet.
Click to expand...
He was up 8 in Rasmussen and 7 in Gallup yesterday. Both are at 6% today, IIRC. That's pretty close, considering both had them essentially tied beforehand.

Will be interesting to see how the NBC/WSJ poll turns out in three hours.
 
S

syllogism

Member
Cheebs said:
Chuck Todd says Obama's team internally predicted his boost from winning the nom would be a 10% lead on McCain. Hasn't happened yet.
Click to expand...
This is what he said a few days ago

Team Obama assumes something closer to 10 (though they wouldn't be caught dead saying that on the record)
Click to expand...

And yes, it is something closer to 10 and perhaps exactly 10 if you consider Mccain was leading in early June.
 
G

GashPrex

NeoGaf-Gold™ Member
Cyan said:
Could still easily happen. 538 says the average bump so far is 5%.


Yeah, reducing that kind of complex issue to sound bites doesn't usually work very well.
Click to expand...

Sure does for politicians, which is why we currently have the sorry state of political debate in the US

Obama is soft on crime because he voted against the death sentence!

McCain doesn't care about our troops! McCain loves war!

McCain loves big business because he doesn't favor tax increases for the rich! McCain hates lower income people!

Obama hates big business because he wants to repeal the tax break!

etc etc...
 
C

Cheebs

Member
GashPrex said:
Sure does for politicians, which is why we currently have the sorry state of political debate in the US

Obama is soft on crime because he voted against the death sentence!

McCain doesn't care about our troops! McCain loves war!

McCain loves big business because he doesn't favor tax increases for the rich! McCain hates lower income people!

Obama hates big business because he wants to repeal the tax break!

etc etc...
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The last point isnt a negative. No one likes big business.
 
H

Hitokage

Setec Astronomer
Cheebs said:
The last point isnt a negative. No one likes big business.
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Amusingly enough, that's fairly true. If you're promoting business interests you either frame it in terms of small business or overarching economical impact, but always avoid big business by name.
 
J

Justin Bailey

------ ------
Francois the Great said:
obama has enlisted the CUSACK

okay obama didn't, moveon.org did. but still. the CUSACK
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Ok, the last thing Obama should want is for moveon.org to campaign for him. He can do just fine by himself.

Also, no one cares when a celebrity says anything about a democrat because it's basically expected at this point.
 
B

bob_arctor

Tough_Smooth
Francois the Great said:
obama has enlisted the CUSACK

okay obama didn't, moveon.org did. but still. the CUSACK
Click to expand...

:lol They shoulda had a kid re-enact that dope "I want my 2 dollars!" bit from Better Off Dead and have Cusack respond "Have you seen McCain's economic plan? He wouldn't give you 2 cents!"
 
G

GhaleonEB

Member
Hitokage said:
Are you kidding? There are crazy people over there. :(
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I've concluded that while we have crazy folks here, the OT is usually just eccentric. The gaming side is certifiable. Of course, I post on both.

Also, Reid via First Read:

Senate Maj. Leader Harry Reid delivered a blunt, broadside attack on McCain’s temper in an interview this afternoon with MSNBC’s Norah O’Donnell.

McCain, he said, “doesn’t have the temperament to be the president of the United States. Everyone who’s ever worked with John McCain knows of his temper. It’s explosive to say the least.”

Reid went more macro and accused Republicans, in general, of using “Orwellian dialect.” “Whatever they say, believe the opposite,” he said.
Click to expand...
Can't wait to see the full interview.
 
T

TDG

Banned
Anybody else see Kerry on MSNBC a few minutes ago?

The further that man gets from the 2004 election, the more I like him.
 
J

Justin Bailey

------ ------
the disgruntled gamer said:
Anybody else see Kerry on MSNBC a few minutes ago?

The further that man gets from the 2004 election, the more I like him.
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Kerry and Edwards are one in the same, neither are good frontmen. They're the bassist and drummer of Obama's rock band.
 
A

AndersTheSwede

Member
This thread move so fast that this could have been posted earlier but here is Salons Camille Paglia on why Obama shouldn't choose Hillary for VP:

Hillary for veep? Are you mad? What party nominee worth his salt would chain himself to a traveling circus like the Bill and Hillary Show? If the sulky bearded lady wasn't biting the new president’s leg, the oafish carnival barker would be sending in the clowns to lure all the young ladies into back-of-the-tent sword-swallowing. It would be a seamy orgy of scheming and screwing.
Click to expand...

http://www.salon.com/opinion/paglia/2008/06/11/hillary/

:lol :lol .... :lol
 
V

VPhys

Member
Watching Hardball right now and they are discussing Obama and women voters who previously supported Hillary.


Watching this I thought of something, do these women (across the country) know that McCain called his wife a cunt? If this was common knowledge I'm pretty sure Obama would pretty much sail through November.
 
S

Stumpokapow

listen to the mad man
I'd say it'd be a cold day in hell before Camille would be happy with someone introducing here as "Salon's Camille Paglia", but yes--she's quite a writer and today's column in particular was very funny.
 
D

Deus Ex Machina

Member
VPhys said:
Watching Hardball right now and they are discussing Obama and women voters who previously supported Hillary.


Watching this I thought of something, do these women (across the country) know that McCain called his wife a cunt? If this was common knowledge I'm pretty sure Obama would pretty much sail through November.
Click to expand...
Not to mention...

Why is Chelsea Clinton so ugly?" - John McCain, 1998
"Because her father is Janet Reno" - John McCain said this in 1998

Remember this, all of you Hillary voters who are wanting to jump over to McCain. Remember how much he's in bed with Bush and remember how much "deep respect" he has for the Clinton's (as evidenced in that quote). Remember all of that "Bomb Bomb Bomb Bomb Bomb Iran" singing, was it music to your ears? Remember how many civil liberties we've lost and how many more are threatened.
Click to expand...
http://www.salon.com/news/1998/06/25newsb.html
 
A

avaya

Member
I know this will piss some of you off immensely.

Why is McCain so revered in America because he is a war "hero"?

How is being captured anything "heroic"? Being captured is him failing as soldier.

He is a caricature of failure.
 
The Chosen One

The Chosen One

Member
Jim Johnson "stepped down"? Lame.

There was no reason to get rid of him. He wasn't a paid adviser. He isn't going to be a cabinet member. I agree Obama caves in much too quickly on these matters.

He doesn't really show his strength when he's constantly caving in to the media for which are essentially 1-3 day stories.
 
B

bob_arctor

Tough_Smooth
avaya said:
I know this will piss some of you off immensely.

Why is McCain so revered in America because he is a war "hero"?

How is being captured anything "heroic"? Being captured is him failing as soldier.

He is a caricature of failure.
Click to expand...

A more plausibly acceptable argument would be his time as a POW as a reason for not wanting him anywhere near the button. Anecdotal evidence would include his apparent short-fuse and stated contempt for "gooks".
 
F

Frank the Great

Banned
avaya said:
I know this will piss some of you off immensely.

Why is McCain so revered in America because he is a war "hero"?

How is being captured anything "heroic"? Being captured is him failing as soldier.

He is a caricature of failure.
Click to expand...

The fascination with ex-soldier candidates can be explained by the "brotherhood of the trenches" concept. Basically, if you fought for the country then you are automatically one of us and share a bond with all of us. If you haven't fought for the country, you are lacking something. It's illogical but very effective historically.

The fact that he was tortured actually helps Mccain. He wasn't only tortured because he got stranded in Vietnam, he got tortured for OUR sake. This emotion is also one of the reasons why the concept of Jesus dying for our sins took off.

This idea is amazingly prevalent in American politics today.
 
T

thekad

Banned
avaya said:
I know this will piss some of you off immensely.

Why is McCain so revered in America because he is a war "hero"?

How is being captured anything "heroic"? Being captured is him failing as soldier.

He is a caricature of failure.
Click to expand...
Some of his and other POW's stories of their imprisonment are pretty heroic. I mean, shit, they survived years of torture.
 
J

Justin Bailey

------ ------
avaya said:
I know this will piss some of you off immensely.

Why is McCain so revered in America because he is a war "hero"?

How is being captured anything "heroic"? Being captured is him failing as soldier.

He is a caricature of failure.
Click to expand...
Oh God.

Listen, going on that mentality soldiers that died are failures too. A person risking or giving up their life in defense of their country (re: every soldier) is considered a hero on varying levels. The fact that he endured immense amounts of pain without betraying us makes what he did heroic.

I also can't believe I just had to explain that.
 
T

Tamanon

Banned
avaya said:
I know this will piss some of you off immensely.

Why is McCain so revered in America because he is a war "hero"?

How is being captured anything "heroic"? Being captured is him failing as soldier.

He is a caricature of failure.
Click to expand...

The capture isn't heroic, the fighting is. Just fighting even if you "fail" is heroic.

Justin: Actually, didn't he actually crack eventually? I could've swore I've seen that he gave away troop deployments and patrol routes. I know of the anti-war confession he signed.

Either way, the one thing that I don't understand is why he supports some of the harsher interrogation methods, considering his experience.
 
J

Justin Bailey

------ ------
Tamanon said:
The capture isn't heroic, the fighting is. Just fighting even if you "fail" is heroic.

Justin: Actually, didn't he actually crack eventually? I could've swore I've seen that he gave away troop deployments and patrol routes.
Click to expand...
I don't know. This is what I could find on wiki:

Although McCain was badly wounded, his captors refused to treat his injuries, instead beating and interrogating him to get information.[36] Only when the North Vietnamese discovered that his father was a top admiral did they give him medical care[36] and announce his capture. His status as a prisoner of war (POW) made the front pages of The New York Times[37] and The Washington Post.[38]

McCain spent six weeks in the hospital while receiving marginal care.[33] Now having lost 50 pounds (23 kg), in a chest cast, and with his hair turned white,[33] McCain was sent to a different camp on the outskirts of Hanoi[39] in December 1967, into a cell with two other Americans who did not expect him to live a week.[40] In March 1968, McCain was put into solitary confinement, where he would remain for two years.[41]

In mid-1968, McCain's father was named commander of all U.S. forces in the Vietnam theater, and McCain was offered early release.[42] The North Vietnamese wanted to appear merciful for propaganda purposes,[43] and also wanted to show other POWs that elites like McCain were willing to be treated preferentially.[42] McCain turned down the offer of repatriation; he would only accept the offer if every man taken in before him was released as well.[33]

In August of 1968, a program of severe torture began on McCain.[44] McCain was subjected to repeated beatings and rope bindings, at the same time as he was suffering from dysentery.[44] After four days, McCain made an anti-American propaganda "confession".[33] He has always felt that his statement was dishonorable,[45] but as he would later write, "I had learned what we all learned over there: Every man has his breaking point. I had reached mine."[46] His injuries left him permanently incapable of raising his arms above his head.[47] He subsequently received two to three beatings per week because of his continued refusal to sign additional statements.[48] Other American POWs were similarly tortured and maltreated in order to extract "confessions" and propaganda statements, with many enduring even worse treatment than McCain.
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Worst thing it says he did was a typical propaganda "confession."
 
T

typhonsentra

Banned
I say it sometimes, but Obama makes some insanely stupid mistakes from time to time. Having Johnson step down gives credence to the idea that his role in the campaign was more significant than it actually was.
 
J

John_B

Member
avaya said:
Why is McCain so revered in America because he is a war "hero"?
Click to expand...
I'm not American, but it is pretty obvious that America has a fetish with heroes. They tend to hand out the Hero Certificate quite often.

It is a need to characterize the essence of good onto real people to counter the realisation of people not being as decent deep down as we all pretend we are.
 
T

Tamanon

Banned
John_B said:
I'm not American, but it is pretty obvious that America has a fetish with heroes. They tend to hand out the Hero Certificate quite often.

It is a need to characterize the essence of good onto real people to counter the realisation of people not being as decent deep down as we all pretend we are.
Click to expand...

Thanks for your psychoanalysis of something you know nothing on.
 
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