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[Deus Ex Machina]

Kathleen Sebilius and my Wingnut Brother.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x3429153

Ok. Like many of you, I have a wingnut relative. My baby brother is ex-military (served in Gulf War I), and is currently a Pennsylvania State Trooper. We don't argue politics much, because he has a short temper and hates losing arguments. And he has a gun. And is TOTALLY not above giving me speeding tickets in retaliation.

So, anyways, as of this past Easter, he was gung-ho on McCain, and the rest of the family were all stupid to be supporting Hitlery Clinton, or "Hussein" Obama.

Bla, bla bla - the standard holiday family gathering crap that all of us have to put up with.

So imagine my surprise this past week when I found out that My Wingnut Brother - the cop who voted for Bush twice, and for Santorum every time he ran tells me that he's decided to vote for Obama.

"Getouttafuckintown!" I replied.

"No really," he tells me. "I think the country's in bad shape, and I don't think McCain will fix it. I think Obama will at least try to get the job done."

By this time I'm looking around for Alan Fundt and the hidden cameras. "Ok," I says, "I'll bite. Did you get hit in the head? Are you dying from cancer? Were you replaced by an alien pod of some kind?"

"Nope. I've just been thinking about it a lot since before the primary."

After a bit of probing and cajoling, I found out what started him thinking.

When the candidates and their surrogates were blitzing the area in the leadup to the PA primary, he was the State cop who picked up Kansas Governor Kathleen Sebilius at the airport and drove her around during her visit to our little chunk o' Pennsyltucky to stump for Obama. And somewhere during that couple of hours, something she said must have clicked something in his little wingnut brain. Somehow she turned him away from his reflexive, kneejerk support for all things Republican, and planted the seeds that eventually grew into an acknowledgment that the country is fucked if we continue on like we are.

"You know," he told me the other day, a couple months after her visit, "If Obama's smart, he should pick that Sebelius lady from Kansas for his Vice President. She'd be really good."

I don't know what she said to him, or even what they talked about. I have no freakin' clue how she did it. But somehow, some way, spending a few hours driving her around to speaking engagements accomplished what I haven't been able to do in the 20 or so years he and I've been fighting over this stuff.

Of course, he was probably more receptive to her arguments than mine, seeing how the Governor of Kansas never held him down and made him eat dirty sweatsocks when he was a kid.

Hey, I never claimed to be a diplomat.

Perfect example of why I keep voting Sebelius on the VP polls.

 

[Justin Bailey]

I don't know. Sympathizing, or whatever you want to call it, with the people who fought to keep your forefathers in chains probably won't play too well with the blacks that Obama hopes to turnout in record numbers. The Confederate sympathizer bloc probably aren't going to vote in large numbers for Obama no matter what.

Since this is the first time in US history that a black man could become president, I can't fathom that a black person would not vote for Obama because of Webb. I'm pretty sure McCain has already gotten all of the black people he is going to get.

 

[Cheebs]

I love this description :lol

But seriously...he got way too outraged over a misinterpretation. Did he think Obama was giving money to rich people based on the numbers?

It sounds like he read the chart as:

Minus = How much you pay
Plus = How much you get back

With this mentality, under Obama's plan once you pass 600K, Obama starts GIVING YOU MONEY!

Yeah, he started insulting Obama and calling it disgusting, when you make a mistake and start insulting the guy for your own mistake you lose your sympathy vote.

 

[FitzOfRage]

Did Gash just misread the chart or is he actually both exceedingly wealthy, and exceedingly cheap?

I mean is he shifting a decimal place or something (so if you make 60K and up, McCain will give you a 45k tax cut, Obama will give you a 116k tax increase)

 

[Trakdown]

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0608/11000.html

McCain On Cheney In His Cabinet: "Hell, Yeah."

If this gets any worse, Obama won't even have to bring up the "Bush's 3rd term" stuff anymore. McCain's plenty capable of doing it himself.

 

[thekad]

Oh, they won't vote for McCain, but they might stay home.

 

[Jason's Ultimatum]

What does the current tax income look like for the bottom 50% of households? Is it basically the same as Obama's tax plan or what? It definately seems more fair under McCain than Obama, but the opposite for the top 5%.

 

[Star Power]

Oh, they won't vote for McCain, but they might stay home.

Uh.. no, not at all.

 

[RubxQub]

What does the current tax income look like for the bottom 50% of households? Is it basically the same as Obama's tax plan or what? It definately seems more fair under McCain than Obama, but the opposite for the top 5%.

...are you also not reading this chart properly?

 

[Justin Bailey]

Maybe, but I doubt it.

Anyway, I'm not even a big Webb fan anyway and I don't think he's going to pick him so yeah. . .

 

[GhaleonEB]

What does the current tax income look like for the bottom 50% of households? Is it basically the same as Obama's tax plan or what? It definately seems more fair under McCain than Obama, but the opposite for the top 5%.

In 2006, the median annual household income was $48,201.00 according to the US Census Bureau.[3] The median income per household member (including all working and non-working members above the age of 14) was $26,036 in 2006.[4] In 2005, there were approximately 113,146,000 households in the United States. 19.01% of all households had annual incomes exceeding $100,000,[5] 12.7% fell below the federal poverty threshold[6] and the bottom 20% earned less than $20,032.[7] The aggregate income distribution is highly concentrated towards the top, with the top 6.37% earning roughly one third of all income, and those with upper-middle incomes control a large, though declining, share of the total earned income.[8][2] Income inequality in the United States, which had decreased slowly after World War II until 1970, began to increase slowly in the 1970s, and has since increased more quickly.[9] Households in the top quintile, 77% of which had two income earners, had incomes exceeding $40,705. Households in the mid quintile, with a mean of one income earner per household had incomes between $22,000 and $57,657.[10]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Household_income_in_the_United_States

Compare that against the tax plans.

>50% of all households in the US make less than $50k. Only 1.5% make more than $250k.

 

[Frank the Great]

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0608/11000.html

McCain On Cheney In His Cabinet: "Hell, Yeah."

If this gets any worse, Obama won't even have to bring up the "Bush's 3rd term" stuff anymore. McCain's plenty capable of doing it himself.

oh please.

Asked whether he’d be interested in Cheney had the vice president not already have served under Bush for two terms, McCain said: “I don’t know if I would want him as vice president. He and I have the same strengths. But to serve in other capacities? Hell, yeah.”

For now at least, the two appear to have settled into something of a non-aggression pact. It helps that they don’t talk—and that McCain currently plays little role in Senate policy-making.

the article is about how mccain and cheney hate each other.

 

[The Lamonster]

oh please.



the article is about how mccain and cheney hate each other.

hate each other? oh please.

Did you not read the text you just quoted??

 

[bob_arctor]

the article is about how mccain and cheney hate each other.

Yup. It's also about how Cheney is a colossal prick. As an aside, I think every argument I ever have with anyone ever, no matter how wrong I know I am, I'll whip out the "We just fundamentally disagree" bit.

 

[Trakdown]

oh please.



the article is about how mccain and cheney hate each other.

So, he hates him, but he supports him helping him in "other capacities?"

Also, "settling on a non-aggression pact" means that they'd work together in spite of that hate. The connection's valid.

 

[Frank the Great]

hate each other? oh please.

Did you not read the text you just quoted??

maybe hate was a strong word. but the article is about the "rocky relationship" they have, and the way he took the "hell yeah" out of context was misleading.

from the article:

“I don’t think the McCain people want Cheney anywhere near him,” said a former Cheney aide.

Asked about what role Cheney would have in the campaign, McCain communications director Jill Hazelbaker only said: “John McCain will always treat the vice president with respect.”

McCain sources note that there are no plans for Cheney and McCain to campaign together and most observers view such a prospect as highly unlikely, given Cheney’s low poll ratings and Democratic efforts to frame McCain as the third term of the Bush administration.

 

[cjdunn]

Kathleen Sebilius and my Wingnut Brother.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x3429153

When the candidates and their surrogates were blitzing the area in the leadup to the PA primary, he was the State cop who picked up Kansas Governor Kathleen Sebilius at the airport and drove her around during her visit to our little chunk o' Pennsyltucky to stump for Obama. And somewhere during that couple of hours, something she said must have clicked something in his little wingnut brain. Somehow she turned him away from his reflexive, kneejerk support for all things Republican, and planted the seeds that eventually grew into an acknowledgment that the country is fucked if we continue on like we are.

Perfect example of why I keep voting Sebelius on the VP polls.

But what did she say? What did she say? It may be the incantation to undo all wingnuts!

 

[Gaborn]

hate each other? oh please.

Did you not read the text you just quoted??

What exactly did you expect him to say? "No, I don't want that maniac anywhere near me, I'em afraid he'll shoot me like that poor sonovabitch lawyer"

 

[Frank the Great]

So, he hates him, but he supports him helping him in "other capacities?"

Also, "settling on a non-aggression pact" means that they'd work together in spite of that hate. The connection's valid.

hitler and stalin had a non-aggression pact.

the article is basically saying that cheney could help mccain with his fundraising abilities and his connection to the neoconservative base, but mccain just doesn't like the guy.

mccain has to be respectful and nice, but it's clear that he wants to stay the hell away from cheney.

again, that "hell yeah" that you quoted, trakdown, was very misleading given the entire article

 

[Jason's Ultimatum]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Household_income_in_the_United_States

Compare that against the tax plans.


>50% of all households in the US make less than $50k. Only 1.5% make more than $250k.

Hmm. I always refer to this site:

http://www.ntu.org/main/page.php?PageID=6

 

[Frank the Great]

But what did she say? What did she say? It may be the incantation to undo all wingnuts!

roadhead

 

[RubxQub]

Sebelius must have some kind of voodoo shit she does to Republicans.

Witchcraft in the Whitehouse!

 

[GhaleonEB]

Josh Marshall over at TPM hit the nail on the head, re: McCain's comment about Iraq this morning.

The problem for the McCain campaign is that he keeps stumbling into clear statements of his actual policy, which is close to lethal since the vast majority of Americans disagree with his policy and Iraq is virtually the only thing he's running on. The context the McCain campaign keeps trying to put forward after the fact is what they wished he'd said rather than what he did. And even that, when you push deep, isn't that different from McCain's actual policy, which is that he doesn't think we should be leaving Iraq for years to come, most likely decades.

 

[The Lamonster]

roadhead

:lol

nice

 

[soul creator]

:lol @ this compilation of all the responses to McCain's Iraq comments

Can't wait for Update #234

 

[Formless]

That is incredibly disgusting. I can't imagine paying those Obama figures in taxes, holy shit fuck that. As an independent who disagrees with both candidates on issues on either side, that certainly is important to me. Sometimes people forget to see how this government will personally affect us, and not other nations or other people.

People need to realize that we actually need to PAY for what the government is spending. Right now the war is on BORROWED dollars. We have to raise taxes, simple and plain. Otherwise we're fucking over the next generation.

 

[Trakdown]

hitler and stalin had a non-aggression pact.

the article is basically saying that cheney could help mccain with his fundraising abilities and his connection to the neoconservative base, but mccain just doesn't like the guy.

mccain has to be respectful and nice, but it's clear that he wants to stay the hell away from cheney.

again, that "hell yeah" that you quoted, trakdown, was very misleading given the entire article

The entire article is actually a question of what they're going to do about Cheney as it pertains to the election, and there's plenty in there to support that McCain's going to be connected with him. That's the point.

As for the "Hell yeah", that was a direct quote from McCain, and I fail to see how it's "misleading" for me to quote it. I wouldn't say "God, I hate that guy and I wish he would die. Preferably in a car fire. But if he wants to work for me in some manner, then hell yeah!"

If it's misleading, it's because McCain's quote doesn't line up with his view of the guy. That's why it's specious- if they hate each other, why is he saying this?

 

[thekad]

If it's misleading, it's because McCain's quote doesn't line up with his view of the guy. That's why it's specious- if they hate each other, why is he saying this?

Because he wants to appeal to the Rush Limbaugh's and Sean Hannity's in his party.

 

[Frank the Great]

If it's misleading, it's because McCain's quote doesn't line up with his view of the guy. That's why it's specious- if they hate each other, why is he saying this?

it's pretty clear that mccain doesn't like the guy, and they don't get along, but that he has to show him respect because of his position in the party and in the government.

this is the best illustration of that:

Asked about what role Cheney would have in the campaign, McCain communications director Jill Hazelbaker only said: “John McCain will always treat the vice president with respect.”

 

[Stinkles]

but when rich people have to pay more taxes, they have less money to create jobs with. So the economy suffers

Spoiler

I don't actually believe that

Don't worry, there are plenty of 19 year old idiots on this forum who do believe it.

 

[Frank the Great]

Don't worry, there are plenty of 19 year old idiots on this forum who do believe it.

as a 19 year old, i am almost 100% forgiving towards the people who believe that, because of our age.

older people have no excuse.

 

[GashPrex]

Worried you might have to sell your second house? Seriously though, you couldn't have suffered that much in the 90s.

Ah i read this wrong, much better - read the numbers in opposite. + 1 for obama, though I still need to look at the actual tax code changes. I hate how the government uses the tax code as a vehicle for social change. I am still not 100% sold on progressive tax brackets, but it is what it is

 

[Triumph]

Jim Johnson just stepped down from the VP vetting team. Wonder if they'll replace him, as he had the most experience.

 

[GashPrex]

as a 19 year old, i am almost 100% forgiving towards the people who believe that, because of our age.

older people have no excuse.

personally, I'd rather hear from economists, regardless of their age...but whatever

 

[Star Power]

Jim Johnson just stepped down from the VP vetting team. Wonder if they'll replace him, as he had the most experience.

Obama caves too much. There was no reason for him to step down, there weren't even any allegations of illegality wrt his mortgages.

 

[Cyan]

Don't worry, there are plenty of 19 year old idiots on this forum who do believe it.

Huh? It's not that hard to understand. Less money taxed means more money out there in the economy means a stronger economy, more jobs, etc.

If you take the idea too far, it fails. Zero taxes would mean zero government jobs, zero non-private infrastructure, and so on. So there must be some ideal crossover point which maximizes the strength of the economy.

Then there's the issue of necessary stuff provided by the government. The courts, national defense, all sorts of other stuff depending on your political views. Do we really want to maximize the economy at the expense of the things listed above?

So while it's a complex issue, believing that lowering taxes improves the economy does not make one an idiot.

Edit:

personally, I'd rather hear from economists, regardless of their age...but whatever

Yeah, my dad's an economist, I always ask him these questions.

 

[thekad]

Obama caves too much. There was no reason for him to step down, there weren't even any allegations of illegality wrt his mortgages.

He stepped down. He wasn't fired.

 

[Star Power]

He stepped down. He wasn't fired.

Oftentimes "stepped down" is a euphemism for "forced out."

 

[Tamanon]

Even economists have different answers, nothing happens in a vacuum there. Trickle-down economics works if the money is actually used in business, if it's not then it doesn't. Just like higher taxes only improves the economy if it's used in domestic spending.

 

[VanMardigan]

Meh. At my family's tax bracket ($66K-$112K), the difference between the two plans is negligible. Still, I'll take the extra money, Mr. Obama.

 

[GashPrex]

Even economists have different answers, nothing happens in a vacuum there. Trickle-down economics works if the money is actually used in business, if it's not then it doesn't. Just like higher taxes only improves the economy if it's used in domestic spending.

wait so you mean people on both sides have good arguments...man and I thought it was only the 19 year old "idiots" who favored trickle down economics.

I truly wish people realized that both sides have rational arguments on most issues, and that dismissing people as idiots, morons etc... is just useless.

 

[Stinkles]

Huh? It's not that hard to understand. Less money taxed means more money out there in the economy means a stronger economy, more jobs, etc.

Yes, in a magical world where US companies given such breaks spend all that extra money hiring US workers and buying US products. But guess what really happens?

 

[bob_arctor]

I truly wish people realized that both sides have rational arguments on most issues, and that dismissing people as idiots, morons etc... is just useless.

So what's your rational argument then, Mr. Upper 1%?

 

[grandjedi6]

Taxes in principle are always bad. Dead weight loss always occurs. Thus they should only be enacted for certain reasons -- funding the government, monetary equality, ect (granted that covers the reasoning behind most taxes already)

 

[Jason's Ultimatum]

I'm still confused, because I'm looking at this chart:

http://www.ntu.org/main/page.php?PageID=6

Percentiles Ranked by AGI
AGI Threshold on Percentiles
Percentage of Federal Personal Income Tax Paid

Top 1%
$364,657

Top 5%
$145,283

Top 10%
$103,912

Top 25%
$62,068

Top 50%
$30,881

Bottom 50%
<$30,881

Now if the bottom 50% makes less than $30,000 a year, they'll be taxed $892 compared to McCain's tax plan which would be $113?

 

[GashPrex]

So what's your rational argument then, Mr. Upper 1%?

sorry that's my sister, as indicated above i misread the chart

 

[Stumpokapow]

wait so you mean people on both sides have good arguments...man and I thought it was only the 19 year old "idiots" who favored trickle down economics.

I truly wish people realized that both sides have rational arguments on most issues, and that dismissing people as idiots, morons etc... is just useless.

Given that you JUST misread a chart, jumped to a completely incorrect conclusion, and decried something as "incredibly disgusting", one would think you'd bow out from the feeding frenzy for a little while.

It's also strange that just minutes after calling regressive taxation "incredibly disgusting" you argued that you're "not sold on" progressive taxation.

 

[GhaleonEB]

I'm still confused, because I'm looking at this chart:

http://www.ntu.org/main/page.php?PageID=6

Percentiles Ranked by AGI
AGI Threshold on Percentiles
Percentage of Federal Personal Income Tax Paid

Now if the bottom 50% makes less than $30,000 a year, they'll be taxed $892 compared to McCain's tax plan which would be $113?

I think you misunderstand the chart. The + and - refer to the change in taxes paid.

Under McCain's tax plan, the $19k-$38k bracket gets a tax cut of $113, not total taxes paid. Under Obama's, the tax cut is $892.

 

[numble]

I'm still confused, because I'm looking at this chart:

http://www.ntu.org/main/page.php?PageID=6

Percentiles Ranked by AGI
AGI Threshold on Percentiles
Percentage of Federal Personal Income Tax Paid



Now if the bottom 50% makes less than $30,000 a year, they'll be taxed $892 compared to McCain's tax plan which would be $113?

Pay attention to the minus signs and plus signs. Obama's plan means a $892 tax break vs. $113 tax break under McCain.

 

[Hellsing321]

I'm still confused, because I'm looking at this chart:

http://www.ntu.org/main/page.php?PageID=6

Percentiles Ranked by AGI
AGI Threshold on Percentiles
Percentage of Federal Personal Income Tax Paid



Now if the bottom 50% makes less than $30,000 a year, they'll be taxed $892 compared to McCain's tax plan which would be $113?

No, McCain's tax plan would only make the average person's tax $113 less than what they are paying now. Obama's would be $892 less.