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PoliGAF Interim Thread of USA General Elections (DAWN OF THE VEEP)

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Karma Kramer said:
I am simply arguing that the tactics will be similar to the 2004 election and depending on the climate it could swing either Rep. or Dem. this November.

I know what you're saying but disagree. Kerry's big liability was that he voted for the Iraq War Authorization and his appeal to voters was basically: "I can run the war a little better and I can bring our allies in to help since they won't hate me the way they despise Bush." To the general populace that wasn't a strong enough contrast with Bush to overthrow the incumbent.

2008 represents a huge contrasts between Obama and McCain. Obama was against the war from the start and wants a withdrawal within 16 months, McCain voted for it and wants to stay there "till we win" Obama wants to rollback the Bush tax-cuts, McCain wants to keep them permanent. Etc. etc. These positions are going to shape the campaign, and it's only just starting.
 
KilledByBill said:
I know what you're saying but disagree. Kerry's big liability was that he voted for the Iraq War Authorization and his appeal to voters was basically: "I can run the war a little better and I can bring our allies in to help since they won't hate me the way they despise Bush." To the general populace that wasn't a strong enough contrast with Bush to overthrow the incumbent.

2008 represents a huge contrasts between Obama and McCain. Obama was against the war from the start and wants a withdrawal within 16 months, McCain voted for it and wants to stay there "till we win" Obama wants to rollback the Bush tax-cuts, McCain wants to keep them permanent. Etc. etc. These positions are going to shape the campaign, and it's only just starting.

Yeah I agree with what you said... but I guess I am not being clear.

Ultimately if it comes down to issues, then Obama has a very good shot at winning. But if it comes down to Obama, and Obama becomes the topic of discussion, not the issues... then McCain could take this.

I really do think Obama has a better shot to win this, but I feel slightly pessimistic because of the nature of how people pick their candidates.

I feel most Americans truly don't understand 95% of the issues being discussed and typically vote on party or by person. It comes down to time and time again, who the people simply like more personally.

Edit: I mean lets face a certain fact here on GAF. Hillary Clinton was basically despised here on GAF from the beginning. Yes throughout the campaign she did some things that actually were fucking terrible and deserve complete criticism, but I wouldn't be telling the truth if I said that was the sole reason for her overall assessment of her, here on GAF.

Because Hillary Clinton and Obama agree on the issues pretty much 95% of the time. There a very few things that they differ on. Which is another reason why I don't drink as much kool-aid on the whole "change" movement.

But look, we like Obama, cause let's face it. Obama is fucking cool. He calm and collected, he makes awesome speeches, he has an excellent sense of humor, and he usually looks pretty sexy in all the pictures we see of him here on GAF.

We rallied behind him, because he on a more personal level has a certain vibe that we like.

Does GAF speak for the American population though? (I wish!)

So look, people of older generations aren't vibing with Obama as much, and if the RNC is successful in making Obama "too risky" for leadership... then we are going to have a Rep. President in 2009.
 
Karma Kramer said:
Why is everyone so shocked? Were you guys asleep the past 8 years?

This is something you will continue to ask as you spend more and more time visiting PoliGaf. In some circles you can substitute 8 with 16. Heh.
 
xs_mini_neo said:
This is something you will continue to ask as you spend more and more time visiting PoliGaf. In some circles you can substitute 8 with 16. Heh.

I understand the frustration people have with smeared tactics... but its all part of the game, so just get used to it. You know? I usually just laugh at most of the shit that gets thrown around in politics.
 

Amir0x

Banned
Karma Kramer said:
I understand the frustration people have with smeared tactics... but its all part of the game, so just get used to it. You know? I usually just laugh at most of the shit that gets thrown around in politics.

Nobody should really have to "get used to" smear tactics. Whether it existed in the past, or is destined to always exist in the future is beside the point... people are justified in being angry and complaining about it. And they're justified in supporting the candidate who least goes down that ugly road.

"Change" in politics is not just a word. And it's not idealistic.
 
Amir0x said:
Nobody should really have to "get used to" smear tactics. Whether it existed in the past, or is destined to always exist in the future is beside the point... people are justified in being angry and complaining about it. And they're justified in supporting the candidate who least goes down that ugly road.

"Change" in politics is not just a word. And it's not idealistic.

Well you are only to bring those tactics more to light by talking about them in my opinion. Its why the media is so lame sometimes focusing on shit like Pastors or Curious George etc.

No amount of yelling is going to convince the people who watch Fox News that what they are watching is basically propaganda.

Obama has been extremely impressive with how clean his campaign has been, and people should award him for doing such. But don't be shocked if other politicians do pull stunts that are completely un-substantial and are essentially just lies.
 

Amir0x

Banned
Karma Kramer said:
Well you are only to bring those tactics more to light by talking about them in my opinion. Its why the media is so lame sometimes focusing on shit like Pastors or Curious George etc.

No amount of yelling is going to convince the people who watch Fox News that what they are watching is basically propaganda.

Obama has been extremely impressive with how clean his campaign has been, and people should award him for doing such. But don't be shocked if other politicians do pull stunts that are completely un-substantial and are essentially just lies.

I don't think the emotion most people here are expressing is "shock", but I could be totally wrong.
 
Amir0x said:
I don't think the emotion most people here are expressing is "shock", but I could be totally wrong.

Well whatever you want to call it... outraged, angered, insulted, ... basically just a general feeling of resentment.
 

Amir0x

Banned
Karma Kramer said:
Well whatever you want to call it... outraged, angered, insulted, ... basically just a general feeling of resentment.

Well, when you label it those other emotions, it's a big difference since as established it's a totally justified reaction and should continue to be the reaction as long as such tactics are used.
 
Amir0x said:
Well, when you label it those other emotions, it's a big difference since as established it's a totally justified reaction and should continue to be the reaction as long as such tactics are used.


I guess I just already have a general understanding of the type of tactics that politicians use (especially the right) that I no longer really get emotionally effected by the bullshit that flies around.

I simply see it as desperation. Sign of weakness, something thats funny...
 

Amir0x

Banned
Karma Kramer said:
I guess I just already have a general understanding of the type of tactics that politicians use (especially the right) that I no longer really get emotionally effected by the bullshit that flies around.

I simply see it as desperation. Sign of weakness, something thats funny...

Well yes, I think the laughter that was implied in many people's posts show that "thinking it was funny" is also one of the emotions they felt :)
 

Uncooked

Banned
Karma Kramer said:
Well whatever you want to call it... outraged, angered, insulted, ... basically just a general feeling of resentment.

The smear campaigns you are talking about are incredibly annoying. I always thought of them as being only effective on the idiots of the country. Unfortunately there are a lot of idiots and they eat that shit up. People still think Obama is a Muslim, or that he at least was a Muslim who converted which is completely amazing. That is going to swing plenty of votes McCain's way for a very stupid reason. There are other more minor examples that effect both men's campaigns, but that is the most astounding one.
 

Mumei

Member
Smear campaigns are effective towards anyone who is low information and has an e-mail address. People don't just receive those sorts of e-mail smears from random people; they get it from their friends and family who passed it along to them, and to whom it had been passed along by other friends and family. It has nothing to do with stupidity and everything to do with how much attention you are paying. Some of my smartest (and I don't have stupid ones) friends have mentioned in passing that they thought Obama was a Muslim. In most cases, they didn't particularly care (one liked the idea), but the point is, it isn't that they are stupid, uneducated, etc.; it's that they haven't paid much attention, and if something is repeated often enough, someone will hear it, think it sounds credible, and take it as fact.

I don't understand the complete lack of concern here; if the GOP is able to make the election about Obama and convince enough people that Obama represents something sufficiently unknown or dangerous to make him not worth the risk, he could lose - and it is harder to make it about the issues than it is about the candidate.

Luckily, Obama himself has shown that he is aware of this danger, so hopefully he'll do a better job fending it off.
 

reilo

learning some important life lessons from magical Negroes
Mumei said:
Smear campaigns are effective towards anyone who is low information and has an e-mail address. People don't just receive those sorts of e-mail smears from random people; they get it from their friends and family who passed it along to them, and to whom it had been passed along by other friends and family. It has nothing to do with stupidity and everything to do with how much attention you are paying. Some of my smartest (and I don't have stupid ones) friends have mentioned in passing that they thought Obama was a Muslim. In most cases, they didn't particularly care (one liked the idea), but the point is, it isn't that they are stupid, uneducated, etc.; it's that they haven't paid much attention, and if something is repeated often enough, someone will hear it, think it sounds credible, and take it as fact.

I don't understand the complete lack of concern here; if the GOP is able to make the election about Obama and convince enough people that Obama represents something sufficiently unknown or dangerous to make him not worth the risk, he could lose - and it is harder to make it about the issues than it is about the candidate.

Luckily, Obama himself has shown that he is aware of this danger, so hopefully he'll do a better job fending it off.

I think the word you are looking for is ignorance.
 

StoOgE

First tragedy, then farce.
Yeah, but people who dont pay attention to an election and still vote are horrid fucking citizens. Either pay some fucking attention or sit your ass at home.
 

Tamanon

Banned
Deus Ex Machina said:
Photos: Obama and Volunteers Pitch in with Flood Relief and Prevention

http://my.slideflickr.com/ajFNUXqt

Today, Barack travelled to Quincy, Illinois to inspect the flood-damaged area and join grassroots volunteers in loading sandbags to help prevent further flooding.

Bad-ass. I saw the donation stuff they've got going on on BO.com.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ARt-...kos.com/story/2008/6/14/213149/670/890/536096

Him shoveling. It's a good point that he didn't go to Iowa so people couldn't accuse him of politicking and his presence actually led to more volunteers showing up to help.
 

GhaleonEB

Member
I've been out all day, but in my skim of the past few pages I didn't see this posted.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/25166151/

WASHINGTON - Questions from the media prompted Republican John McCain to cancel a fundraiser at the home of a Texas oilman who once joked that women should give in while being raped.

The Texan, Republican Clayton "Claytie" Williams, made the joke during his failed 1990 campaign for governor against Democrat Ann Richards. Williams compared rape to the weather, saying, "As long as it's inevitable, you might as well lie back and enjoy it." He also compared Richards to the cattle on his ranch, saying he would "head her and hoof her and drag her through the dirt."

Williams' comments made national news at the time and remain easy to find on the Internet. Even so, McCain's campaign said it hadn't known about the remarks.

"These were obviously incredibly offensive remarks that the campaign was unaware of at the time it was scheduled," McCain spokesman Brian Rogers said. "It's positive that he did apologize at the time, but the comments are nonetheless offensive."

Campaign will keep money

The campaign said it would not return money Williams had raised for McCain because the contributions came from other individuals supporting McCain and not from Williams. Williams told his hometown newspaper, the Midland Reporter-Telegram, that he had raised more than $300,000 for McCain.


Democrats said McCain should give back the money: "Senator McCain's claim of ignorance is no excuse for refusing to do the right thing now. Offensive, disgusting comments like these cannot be tolerated," Democratic National Committee spokeswoman Karen Finney said.

The flap comes as McCain's campaign reaches out to women and to backers of Democrat Hillary Rodham Clinton. McCain began a women-focused outreach effort in recent days, sending a well-known female supporter, former Hewlett-Packard CEO Carly Fiorina, to campaign in Ohio and Pennsylvania.

"I respect and admire the campaign she ran," McCain said Saturday on a telephone town hall meeting. "Every place I go, I'm told that Senator Clinton inspired millions of young women in this country. And not necessarily young women; she inspired a whole generation of young people in this country."

The forum featured questioners, nearly all of them women, who identified themselves as Democrats and independents; McCain's campaign said many were Clinton supporters. McCain also took questions from an in-person audience of about 35 people at his Northern Virginia campaign headquarters; no journalists were present.

A promise on women in government

One woman pressed McCain on whether he would commit to increase the number of women in government. McCain answered, "I want to assure you with confidence, at the end of my first term, you will see a dramatic increase of women in every part of the government of my administration."

No one on the call asked about the Texas fundraiser.

The Washington Post said the campaign, when it initially was contacted by the Post and ABC News, questioned why the story was newsworthy; later in the day, the campaign canceled the fundraiser, which had been scheduled for Monday.
Keep attracting the female vote, McCain.
 
McCain seriously needs to start vetting more. This is becoming a serious problem for him. Such stupid small mistakes that really should not be made by any presidential campaign.

Just embarrassing.
 

Tamanon

Banned
Karma Kramer said:
McCain seriously needs to start vetting more. This is becoming a serious problem for him. Such stupid small mistakes that really should not be made by any presidential campaign.

Just embarrassing.

LOL

Although McCain wouldn't give a damn if this was 3 weeks out from Hillary conceding instead of one.
 
Good article on MSM's attempts to make the race a close one: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/15/opinion/15rich.html?_r=1&ref=opinion&pagewanted=print&oref=slogin

They did the same thing in the primaries to keep Clinton alive until the end. It sure did help their ratings.

Angry Clinton Women ♥ McCain?
By FRANK RICH

TEN years ago John McCain had to apologize for regaling a Republican audience with a crude sexual joke about Hillary and Chelsea Clinton and Janet Reno. Last year he had to explain why he didn’t so much as flinch when a supporter asked him on camera, “How do we beat the bitch?” But these days Mr. McCain just loves the women.

In his televised address on Barack Obama’s victory night of June 3, he dismissed Mr. Obama in a single patronizing line but devoted four fulsome sentences to praising Mrs. Clinton for “inspiring millions of women.” The McCain Web site is showcasing a new blogger who crooned of the “genuine affection” for Mrs. Clinton “here at McCain HQ” after she lost. One of the few visible women in the McCain campaign hierarchy, Carly Fiorina, has declared herself “enormously proud” of Mrs. Clinton and is barnstorming to win over Democratic women to her guy’s cause.

How heartwarming. You’d never guess that Mr. McCain is a fierce foe of abortion rights or that he voted to terminate the federal family-planning program that provides breast-cancer screenings. You’d never know that his new campaign blogger, recruited from The Weekly Standard, had shown his genuine affection for Mrs. Clinton earlier this year by portraying her as a liar and whiner and by piling on with a locker-room jeer after she’d been called a monster. “Tell us something we don’t know,” he wrote.

But while the McCain campaign apparently believes that women are easy marks for its latent feminist cross-dressing, a reality check suggests that most women can instantly identify any man who’s hitting on them for selfish ends. New polls show Mr. Obama opening up a huge lead among female voters — beating Mr. McCain by 13 percentage points in the Gallup and Rasmussen polls and by 19 points in the latest Wall Street Journal-NBC News survey.

How huge is a 13- to 19-percentage-point lead? John Kerry won women by only 3 points, Al Gore by 11.

The real question is how Mr. McCain and his press enablers could seriously assert that he will pick up disaffected female voters in the aftermath of the brutal Obama-Clinton nomination battle. Even among Democrats, Mr. Obama lost only the oldest female voters to Mrs. Clinton.

But as we know from our Groundhog Days of 2008, a fictional campaign narrative, once set in the concrete of Beltway bloviation, must be recited incessantly, especially on cable television, no matter what facts stand in the way. Only an earthquake — the Iowa results, for instance — could shatter such previously immutable story lines as the Clinton campaign’s invincibility and the innate hostility of white voters to a black candidate.

Our new bogus narrative rose from the ashes of Mrs. Clinton’s concession to Mr. Obama, amid the raucous debate over what role misogyny played in her defeat. A few female Clinton supporters — or so they identified themselves — appeared on YouTube and Fox News to say they were so infuriated by sexism that they would vote for Mr. McCain.

Now, there’s no question that men played a big role in Mrs. Clinton’s narrow loss, starting with Barack Obama, Bill Clinton and Mark Penn. And the evidence of misogyny in the press and elsewhere is irrefutable, even if it was not the determinative factor in the race. But the notion that all female Clinton supporters became “angry white women” once their candidate lost — to the hysterical extreme where even lifelong Democrats would desert their own party en masse — is itself a sexist stereotype. That’s why some of the same talking heads and Republican operatives who gleefully insulted Mrs. Clinton are now peddling this fable on such flimsy anecdotal evidence.

The fictional scenario of mobs of crazed women defecting to Mr. McCain is just one subplot of the master narrative that has consumed our politics for months. The larger plot has it that the Democratic Party is hopelessly divided, and that only a ticket containing Mrs. Clinton in either slot could retain the loyalty of white male bowlers and other constituencies who tended to prefer her to Mr. Obama in the primaries.

This is reality turned upside down. It’s the Democrats who are largely united and the Republicans who are at one another’s throats.

Yet the myth of Democratic disarray is so pervasive that when “NBC Nightly News” and The Wall Street Journal presented their new poll results last week (Obama, 47 percent; McCain, 41 percent) they ignored their own survey’s findings to stick to the clichéd script. Both news organizations (and NBC’s sibling, MSNBC) dwelled darkly on Mr. Obama’s “problems with two key groups” (as NBC put it): white men, where he is behind 20 percentage points to Mr. McCain, and white suburban women, where he is behind 6 points.

Since that poll gives Mr. Obama not just a 19-point lead among all women but also a 7-point lead among white women, a 6-point deficit in one sliver of the female pie is hardly a heart-stopper. Nor is Mr. Obama’s showing among white men shocking news. No Democratic presidential candidate, including Bill Clinton, has won a majority of that declining demographic since 1964. Mr. Kerry lost white men by 25 points, and Mr. Gore did by 24 points (even as he won the popular vote).


“NBC Nightly News” was so focused on these supposedly devastating Obama shortfalls that there was no mention that the Democrat beat Mr. McCain (and outperformed Mr. Kerry) in every other group that had been in doubt: independents, Catholics, blue-collar workers and Hispanics. Indeed, the evidence that pro-Clinton Hispanics are flocking to Mr. McCain is as nonexistent as the evidence of a female stampede. Mr. Obama swamps Mr. McCain by 62 percent to 28 percent — a disastrous G.O.P. setback, given that President Bush took 44 percent of the Hispanic vote in 2004, according to exit polls. No wonder the McCain campaign no longer lists its candidate’s home state of Arizona as safe this fall.

There are many ways that Mr. Obama can lose this election. But his 6-percentage-point lead in the Journal-NBC poll is higher than Mr. Bush’s biggest lead (4 points) over Mr. Kerry at any point in that same poll in 2004. So far, despite all the chatter to the contrary, Mr. Obama is not only holding on to Mrs. Clinton’s Democratic constituencies but expanding others (like African-Americans). The same cannot be said of Mr. McCain and the G.O.P. base.

That story is minimized or ignored in part because an unshakable McCain fan club lingers in some press quarters and in part because it’s an embarrassing refutation of the Democrats-in-meltdown narrative that so many have invested in. Understating the splintering of the Republican base also keeps hope alive for a tight race. As the Clinton-Obama marathon proved conclusively, a photo finish is essential to the dramatic and Nielsen imperatives of 24/7 television coverage.

The conservative hostility toward McCain heralded by the early attacks of Rush Limbaugh, Ann Coulter and James Dobson is proliferating. Bay Buchanan, the party activist who endorsed Mitt Romney, wrote this month that Mr. McCain is “incapable of energizing his party, brings no new people to the polls” and “has a personality that is best kept under wraps.” When Mr. McCain ditched the preachers John Hagee and Rod Parsley after learning that their endorsements antagonized Catholics, Muslims and Jews, he ended up getting a whole new flock of evangelical Christians furious at him too.

The revolt is not limited to the usual cranky right-wing suspects. The antiwar acolytes of Ron Paul are planning a large rally for convention week in Minneapolis. The conservative legal scholar Douglas Kmiec has endorsed Mr. Obama, as have both the economic adviser to Newt Gingrich’s “Contract With America,” Lawrence Hunter, and the neocon historian Francis Fukuyama. Rupert Murdoch is publicly flirting with the Democrat as well. Even Dick Cheney emerged from his bunker this month to gratuitously dismiss Mr. McCain’s gas-tax holiday proposal as “a false notion” before the National Press Club.

These are not anomalies. Last week The Hill reported that at least 14 Republican members of Congress have refused to endorse or publicly support Mr. McCain. Congressional Quarterly found that of the 62,800 donors who maxed out to Mr. Bush’s campaign in 2004, only about 5,000 (some 8 percent) have contributed to his putative successor.

It was just this toxic stew of inadequate fund-raising and hostility from the base — along with incompetent management — that capsized the McCain campaign last summer. Now the management, at least, is said to be new and improved, but the press is still so distracted by the “divided Democrats” it has yet to uncover how that brilliant McCain team spent weeks choreographing the candidate’s slapstick collision with a green backdrop and self-immolating speech in prime time two weeks ago.

The only figure in the McCain camp who has candidly acknowledged any glitches is his mother, the marvelous 96-year-old Roberta McCain. Back in January she said that she didn’t think her son had any support in the G.O.P. base and that those voters would only take him if “holding their nose.”

The ludicrous idea that votes from Clinton supporters would somehow make up for McCain defectors is merely the latest fairy tale brought to you by those same Washington soothsayers who said Fred Thompson was the man to beat and that young people don’t turn up to vote.
 
Karma Kramer said:
McCain seriously needs to start vetting more. This is becoming a serious problem for him. Such stupid small mistakes that really should not be made by any presidential campaign.

Just embarrassing.


No kidding. It's almost as if his campaign is actively working against him. I mean really, a week after Clinton drops out he stumbles into rape-jokegate? Come on.
 

Sleeker

Member
The only figure in the McCain camp who has candidly acknowledged any glitches is his mother, the marvelous 96-year-old Roberta McCain. Back in January she said that she didn’t think her son had any support in the G.O.P. base and that those voters would only take him if “holding their nose.”

Thats hilarious.
 

Dupy

"it is in giving that we receive"
Now the management, at least, is said to be new and improved, but the press is still so distracted by the “divided Democrats” it has yet to uncover how that brilliant McCain team spent weeks choreographing the candidate’s slapstick collision with a green backdrop and self-immolating speech in prime time two weeks ago

:lol

I'm still baffled that they worked on that speech for weeks. Great article. I await a total GOP meltdown this November.
 
I don't understand the concern over smear tactics. Didn't the Repubs lose 3 special elections in conservative congressional districts lately after running anti-Obama/Wright campaigns?
 

Amir0x

Banned
Man reading the article, it's all kinds of fucked up that both Bush and Cheney are basically saying McCain's gastax holiday is a 'false notion.' He can't even hold the Republican leadership in lockstep, jesus :lol
 

Farmboy

Member
Here's another Electoral Map roundup:

FiveThirtyEight just updated their methodology in order to better reflect trends (such as Obama's post-nomination bounce). They're now showing Obama far further ahead than before, and in a breakdown of their election scenario's, they calculate chances of an Obama landslide (375+ EVs) at 29.61% (compared to 9.23% for McCain). On average, they see Obama capturing 308.5 EV.

Electoral-Vote currently has Obama at 304 EV, McCain at 221, with 13 EV in ties. If you have FireFox, you may be interested in this useful little plugin that displays their numbers in the bottom-right-hand corner of the statusbar.

RealClearPolitics' map has Obama at 238 EV, McCain 190, 110 Toss-up. Removing the toss-ups, it's a slim win by Obama: 272-266. Note that this scenario has Obama losing MI, NV, MO, NH and VA, but winning all the other swing states (FL may not be a swing state, considering pretty much everyone has it as solid red at this point).

DemConWatch averages the projections of eight different sources (including 538, NBC, CNN and Rasmussen) and has assigned every state to either candidate with the exception of Ohio and its 20 EVs. This adds up to 273-245 for Obama. NH, PA, MI, CO and NM are blue here, while MO and VA are red.

Also factor in that:
* In addition to the swing states, Obama is more likely to flip NC, FL, Omaha (1 EV) or even IN or ND than McCain is to be competative in places like CT or NJ.
* On the macro-level, the Democrats have a clear advantage. An unpopular president that has served two terms is pretty much always succeeded by someone from the opposing party. And Democrats have a significant voter-identification advantage (which Obama's registration drive will help turn into an actual ballot box advantage).
* There's little doubt that Obama's campaign team and grassroots organisation is more competent and on-the-ball than McCain's.
* Obama should do better than McCain in the debates and during public appearances in general (especially Denver vs. St. Paul). Related: McCain has a significant YouTube-problem.
* Obama will have a clear money advantage; he will outraise and outspend McCain by a significant margin.

The election is still a long way off, of course (remember that Kerry was leading in the polls in June 2004 as well), but October surprises notwithstanding, this election definitely is Obama's to lose.

Likely map (Obama win 293-245)

Worst-case scenario map
(Obama loss 247-291)

Dream Landslide map (Obama win 378-160) :D
 

Pimpwerx

Member
FL is not going to vote McCain this Fall. He's gonna own the SE corridor from Palm Beach through Dade. I think he'll also surprise people with how he mobilizes blacks upstate. In the past, you'd hear a lot of vocal support for Republicans around here. Bush and Dole, for instance. Lately, it's all Obama. Cubans, Haitians, sub-urban whites... it's Obama country down here. We are a shameful lot when it comes to making the news, but I think we're gonna get it right in the Fall. PEACE.

EDIT: I'm in NoMi, btw.
 

Clevinger

Member
ugh...

Get Osama Bin Laden before I leave office, orders George W Bush

Get Osama Bin Laden before I leave office, orders George W Bush

President George W Bush has enlisted British special forces in a final attempt to capture Osama Bin Laden before he leaves the White House.

Defence and intelligence sources in Washington and London confirmed that a renewed hunt was on for the leader of the September 11 attacks. “If he [Bush] can say he has killed Saddam Hussein and captured Bin Laden, he can claim to have left the world a safer place,” said a US intelligence source.

Bush arrives in Britain today on the final leg of his eight-day farewell tour of Europe. He will have tea with the Queen and dinner with Gordon Brown and his wife Sarah before holding a private meeting with Brown at No 10 tomorrow and flying on to Northern Ireland.

The Special Boat Service (SBS) and the Special Reconnaissance Regiment have been taking part in the US-led operations to capture Bin Laden in the wild frontier region of northern Pakistan. It is the first time they have operated across the Afghan border on a regular basis.

The hunt was “completely sanctioned” by the Pakistani government, according to a UK special forces source. It involves the use of Predator and Reaper unmanned aerial vehicles fitted with Hellfire missiles that can be used to take out specific terrorist targets.

One US intelligence source compared the “growing number of clandestine reconnaissance missions” inside Pakistan with those conducted in Laos and Cambodia at the height of the Vietnam war.

America rarely acknowledges the use of Predator and Reaper drones, but the most recent known strike was on a suspected Al-Qaeda safe house in the Pakistani province of North Waziristan earlier in June. Villagers said the house was empty.

Intelligence on the whereabouts of Bin Laden is sketchy, but some analysts believe he is in the Bajaur tribal zone in northwest Pakistan. He has evaded capture for nearly seven years. “Bush is swinging for the fences in the hope of scoring a home run,” said an intelligence source, using a baseball metaphor.

A Pentagon source said US forces were rolling up Al-Qaeda’s network in Pakistan in the hope of pushing Bin Laden towards the Afghan border, where the US military and bombers with guided missiles were lying in wait. “They are prepping for a major battle,” he said.

The main operations in Pakistan are being undertaken by Delta, the US army special operations unit, and the British SBS.

Special forces are being sent to capture or kill Al-Qaeda and Taliban fighters based on intelligence provided by the Special Reconnaissance Regiment and its US counterpart, the Security Co-ordination Detachment.

The step-up in military activity has increased tensions between Pakistan and the US. A senior Pakistani government source said President Pervez Musharraf had given tacit support to Predator attacks on Al-Qaeda.

Robert Gates, the US defence secretary, said last week that the US would “partner [the Pakistanis] to the extent they want us to” to combat insurgents.

Pakistan lodged a strong diplomatic protest last week over what it claimed was an airstrike on a border post with Afghanistan that killed 11 of its troops.

The United States declined to accept this version of events. “It is still not exactly clear what happened,” said Stephen Hadley, the national security adviser.
 

Amir0x

Banned
you know i was actually tossing the idea around in my head that Bush would try to "take Osama Bin Laden" as a last salvo to defeat the Democratic candidate for president, as such an action would obviously trickle down to help McCain.

Guess I am not so wrong with such thoughts.
 

Mumei

Member
reilo said:
I think the word you are looking for is ignorance.

Er... what?

I wasn't looking for the word "ignorance." I was tired of people using stupidity as a way to explain people believing the things they do, and making the point that stupidity has nothing to do with it, and it is stupid to write off people who believe some of these smear campaign accusations as simply being stupid.

It was a dispute of other people's explanation of ignorance. How from that you got the idea that I was trying to look for the word ignorance, I have no idea.

(Sorry, I can't tell if you were being a snide asshole and I should feel insulted or you were trying to be helpful. :lol)
 
Mumei said:
Er... what?

I wasn't looking for the word "ignorance." I was tired of people using stupidity as a way to explain people believing the things they do, and making the point that stupidity has nothing to do with it, and it is stupid to write off people who believe some of these smear campaign accusations as simply being stupid.

It was a dispute of other people's explanation of ignorance. How from that you got the idea that I was trying to look for the word ignorance, I have no idea.

(Sorry, I can't tell if you were being a snide asshole and I should feel insulted or you were trying to be helpful. :lol)
Ignorance isn't necessarily a bad thing - it can merely mean being uninformed on a particular subject, even though it usually carries negative connotations (of stupidity) with it. Maybe that's what he was talking about.

edit: oh and fuck you and your gas tax moratorium john mccain :mad:
 

Diablos

Member
I was reading something while Newt Gringrich was on tv this morning, but if I heard correctly, did he say the recent Supreme Court decision about the detainees will possibly cost America the loss of a city? He REALLY said that?

Clevinger said:
Oh, cool. So he'll only go after the guy who actually DID hurt our country for his party's political interests, but started a war on false pretenses years before just 'cause. You're such an awesome guy, G-Dub.

...that really pisses me off. When it's best for him and his party, he finally decides to make him a part of the center focus again. Class act, man. Class act. One of the guys behind 9/11, the nation's worst terror attack, was put on the backburner for years and finally brought back as a political tool. Think about that. Sickening. No wonder there are so many conspiracy loons out there -- it's not that I agree with them, but they are so great at showing themselves to be such a morally and ethically bankrupt administration.

I hope Americans don't fall for this stunt, even if he FINDS bin Laden.

Pimpwerx said:
FL is not going to vote McCain this Fall. He's gonna own the SE corridor from Palm Beach through Dade. I think he'll also surprise people with how he mobilizes blacks upstate. In the past, you'd hear a lot of vocal support for Republicans around here. Bush and Dole, for instance. Lately, it's all Obama. Cubans, Haitians, sub-urban whites... it's Obama country down here. We are a shameful lot when it comes to making the news, but I think we're gonna get it right in the Fall. PEACE.

EDIT: I'm in NoMi, btw.
Question: How did you feel about Kerry at this time in '04? And Gore?
 

Diablos

Member
GenericPseudonym said:
What? You are upset, Bush is trying to catch Osama? I don't give a shit what his motivations are, capturing Bin Laden is always a good thing and always should be a priority, and if he is able to catch him before he leaves office, all the better.
If McCain was ahead of Obama by 15 points in the polls right now and his party wasn't prepared for a disaster behind the scenes, do you think Bush would have made that statement?

This is why we're upset. If he finds bin Laden, that itself is obviously not a bad thing. But why has he for the first time in YEARS at the end of his second term, all of the sudden tried to make Osama a big part of his war on terror again? It makes no sense. He should have been aggressively looking for him throughout his Presidency, not pushing him aside to focus more on Iraq and then years later, bringing him up totally out of the blue in the middle of a really bad year for Republicans.
 

Amir0x

Banned
GenericPseudonym said:
What? You are upset, Bush is trying to catch Osama? I don't give a shit what his motivations are, capturing Bin Laden is always a good thing and always should be a priority, and if he is able to catch him before he leaves office, all the better.

I agree. But it'd be a huge shame if the reason for him doing it - to preserve his legacy and likely secure Republican win for the presidency - actually worked. Because they don't deserve to win.
 

Clevinger

Member
GenericPseudonym said:
What? You are upset, Bush is trying to catch Osama? I don't give a shit what his motivations are, capturing Bin Laden is always a good thing and always should be a priority, and if he is able to catch him before he leaves office, all the better.

Upset about his motivation and that this waited till the end of his presidency.
 

Diablos

Member
I bet they'll find him or get damn close. Watch. Think about all of the intel that they probably ignored while they said he wasn't a priority.
 
GenericPseudonym said:
What? You are upset, Bush is trying to catch Osama? I don't give a shit what his motivations are, capturing Bin Laden is always a good thing and always should be a priority, and if he is able to catch him before he leaves office, all the better.

The thing to be upset about is that catching Bin Laden hasn't been Bush's priority for the last 7 years! The focus should've never switched to Iraq and it's disgusting that Bush seemingly woke-up recently and remembered he was still out there. Whether he's motivated by a selfish desire to have a legacy, hoping for a propaganda boost to McCain and his party, or is just getting to Bin Laden on the "to do" list, it just underscores what an incompetent president our country has suffered from for 8 years.
 

Diablos

Member
Obama has to win this election. I can't stand another four years of Republicans in the White House, it will drive me mad. Electoral map is looking so unpredictable right now, though.

And one must wonder how Michigan will feel about its delegates getting only half a vote and being the centerpiece of the Clinton vs. the World fiasco before these primaries finally ended.
 

Cheebs

Member
You love it or you hate it...ITS THE DAILY GALLUP

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