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[Tamanon]

The context in this case doesn't really matter, because it was just a poor way to put it. If the intent was to say "I will not take their barbs lying down", there were many better ways to put it. Yes, I understand the media is reactionary but in this case Obama has to be careful not to give them fuel. This was pretty significant fuel, I thought.



Right, but he's not going to help anything if McCain's camp perceives it as "open season" on negative politics, which Obama sort of implied with that comment even if that wasn't his intent.

Er....you don't think they see it as open season already? Have you seen the GOP website?

 

[Amir0x]

Er....you don't think they see it as open season already? Have you seen the GOP website?

There's a difference when they have a FREE PASS to do it. If they think Obama is going to do the same, and they allow the media to interpret Obama's own words into igniting the flame of political war, then that's going to be a net negative for Obama.

Repeat: Yes, Republicans would have always gone negative. But Obama has mostly been seen to be 'above' the fray. Comments like this suggest/imply that he is just as willing to sling mud, or even start fights, or even bring worse "political weaponry", which will put the blame on him.

 

[Diablos]

Er....you don't think they see it as open season already? Have you seen the GOP website?

:lol It's almost like they got a tabloid in on the layout and phrasing.

 

[Tamanon]

There's a difference when they have a FREE PASS to do it. If they think Obama is going to do the same, and they allow the media to interpret Obama's own words into igniting the flame of political war, then that's going to be a net negative for Obama.

Repeat: Yes, Republicans would have always gone negative. But Obama has mostly been seen to be 'above' the fray. Comments like this suggest/imply that he is just as willing to sling mud, or even start fights, or even bring worse "political weaponry", which will put the blame on him.

Dude, you worry too much, did you even look at how McCain's camp responded? They basically said Obama was evil for comparing politics to a knife fight. It was absolutely silly and they were probably laughed off the stage.

 

[Amir0x]

Dude, you worry too much, did you even look at how McCain's camp responded? They basically said Obama was evil for comparing politics to a knife fight. It was absolutely silly and they were probably laughed off the stage.

I worry too much? I think Obama is going to win by a sweeping, super large margin.

I do NOT think this was a smart move, I think it was bad for Obama and a bad move on his part. Because it was. Let's not get the waters bloodied with this shark bait. McCain's camp was right to capitalize on the comment, because it in effect allowed them to push off blame for the "political fight" going dirty. whether it's true or not is irrelevant - it's the perceived GAFFE in the public eye that counts.

 

[Diablos]

There's a difference when they have a FREE PASS to do it. If they think Obama is going to do the same, and they allow the media to interpret Obama's own words into igniting the flame of political war, then that's going to be a net negative for Obama.

Repeat: Yes, Republicans would have always gone negative. But Obama has mostly been seen to be 'above' the fray. Comments like this suggest/imply that he is just as willing to sling mud, or even start fights, or even bring worse "political weaponry", which will put the blame on him.

Good point, but I think Obama will have to say/do a lot more than just this if he wants to permanently ruin his 'above' the fray reputation.

Once the McCain camp realizes this too will be ineffective, like damn near everything else they've tried, they'll move on to something else that likely won't matter

 

[Deus Ex Machina]

Remember the talk of the Dem concention fundraising falling behind? They missed a March goal by $5m. They're even further behind now.

http://tpmelectioncentral.talkingpointsmemo.com/2008/06/dem_convention_15_million_shor.php

Dem Convention $15 Million Short Of Fundraising Goal

The Democratic National Convention's host panel is falling far short of its fundraising goals, one of the few serious weak spots in Dem fundraising along with the DNC as a whole.

The host committee would need to raise $15 million by Monday in order to reach its goal -- an unlikely occurrence, to say the least.

Rather embarassing considering all the advantages the party has right now.

Lobbyist are laughing.

 

[Tamanon]

Lobbyist are laughing.

Eh they've been running way behind on funding even before the lobbyist/PAC purge. Long primaries do that.

 

[CowboyAstronaut]

One way Obama's statement can be seen is that it was a bad move, but another way it can be seen is that he isn't backing down at all.

He essentially said "bring it on bitches" :lol

 

[The Librarian]

:lol :lol

 

[Karma Kramer]

If this continues and Obama can't keep a pretty solid lead, it spells trouble. Serious trouble.

Dude... its June.

 

[DrForester]

I really wouldn't trust polls till October. News stations seem to like to manipulate the poll numbers so that things appear close than they actually do, makes for better ratings.

 

[grandjedi6]

I really wouldn't trust polls till October. News stations seem to like to manipulate the poll numbers so that things appear close than they actually do, makes for better ratings.

They aren't manipulating the numbers really. But you are right about not trusting polling numbers this early. Before September (maybe October this year due to the late conventions) polling numbers in general mean shit. They especially are not meant to be watched day to day like the people in this thread do. Plus changes within the margin of error mean nothing to, something gaf tends to forget

 

[Skiptastic]

A good 10-15% seem to switch based on whoever has the best media coverage on a given day. It's odd.

Just wait for some bomb to drop the Monday before voting then. The candidates have a few months to try to get some sort of following and lead created, but if that's the type of shit that's going to go down this year, whoo boy, that Monday will probably have some crazy shit go on.

 

[Cheebs]

I really wouldn't trust polls till October. News stations seem to like to manipulate the poll numbers so that things appear close than they actually do, makes for better ratings.

Chris Matthews said this week that Carter and Reagan were tied in the polls roughly till the weekend before the election and we all know how that turned out.

 

[Tamanon]

They aren't manipulating the numbers really. But you are right about not trusting polling numbers this early. Before September (maybe October this year due to the late conventions) polling numbers in general mean shit. They especially are not meant to be watched day to day like the people in this thread do. Plus changes within the margin of error mean nothing to, something gaf tends to forget

Well....they're manipulating the perceptions of the polls. Witness MSNBS spending hours talking about Obama's 6 point problem with "suburban women" of all things, even while enjoying a 19 point lead amongst women in general.

 

[Frank the Great]

Chris Matthews said this week that Carter and Reagan were tied in the polls roughly till the weekend before the election and we all know how that turned out.

The problem I see with national polling is that the popular vote doesn't mean shit anyway.

For example, even though Reagan absolutely demolished Carter, he only got 55% of the popular vote, to 45%. Likewise, as we all know Al Gore had a good lead on the popular vote but lost.

I am much more fond of individual state polling. Provides a much better picture.

By the way, state polling is looking great for Obama in most swing states, even Washington :lol

EDIT: I literally starting LOL'ing like crazy when I saw that pic down there v

 

[Cheebs]

wtf at politico. :lol They have a run of the mill obama/mccain story about the internet up and this is the picture they chose. Weirdest images of both of them possible

 

[Diablos]

 

[Karma Kramer]

There's a difference when they have a FREE PASS to do it. If they think Obama is going to do the same, and they allow the media to interpret Obama's own words into igniting the flame of political war, then that's going to be a net negative for Obama.

Repeat: Yes, Republicans would have always gone negative. But Obama has mostly been seen to be 'above' the fray. Comments like this suggest/imply that he is just as willing to sling mud, or even start fights, or even bring worse "political weaponry", which will put the blame on him.

Unlike Kerry, Obama knows he is going to have to aggressively defend himself and weaken his opponent as much as possible with political attacks. It doesn't mean he is going to play dirty and start spreading bullshit, it just means that he is going to be tough on the issues with McCain.

This comment is good news in my opinion.

 

[The Librarian]

wtf at politico. :lol They have a run of the mill obama/mccain story about the internet up and this is the picture they chose. Weirdest images of both of them possible

The fuck.:lol :lol

 

[Deus Ex Machina]

Midwestern Flooding: McCain Prays; Obama Grabs a Shovel!

Obama visited the flooded Midwest later Saturday, stopping in Quincy, IL, to help fill sandbags.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ARt-OJKKfQY


Meanwhile, McCain issued a statement:

“Our thoughts and prayers go out to all those impacted by the flooding throughout the Midwest. Cindy and I would like to extend our sympathies to all those who have lost loved ones, and stand ready to help those in the Midwest to recover and rebuild.”

… what good is faith without action? I dunno about you guys… but what exactly is he “standing ready” for? Enough with the talk. I know he’s too frail to fill sandbag but the least he could do is fly around Iowa in in Cindy’s private plane and look confused, like Bush did as New Orleans was going down.

 

[Farmboy]

The context in this case doesn't really matter, because it was just a poor way to put it. If the intent was to say "I will not take their barbs lying down", there were many better ways to put it.

The way he put it gave me flashbacks to The West Wing episode where Pres. Bartlett, after a TV interview, "forgets" that the camera is still rolling and "accidentally" refers to his Bush-like GOP opponent as "a .22 caliber mind in a .357 world". It is later revealed that the barb was fully intentional, including the fact that Bartlett, who was seen by some as too liberal and soft, chose to use a 'gun metaphor'...

 

[GhaleonEB]

Midwestern Flooding: McCain Prays; Obama Grabs a Shovel!

Obama visited the flooded Midwest later Saturday, stopping in Quincy, IL, to help fill sandbags.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ARt-OJKKfQY


Meanwhile, McCain issued a statement:


… what good is faith without action? I dunno about you guys… but what exactly is he “standing ready” for? Enough with the talk. I know he’s too frail to fill sandbag but the least he could do is fly around Iowa in in Cindy’s private plane and look confused, like Bush did as New Orleans was going down.

And let's not forget Obama's website:

http://www.barackobama.com/index.php

Beyond just showing up, or putting out statements, Obama put his organization to work in order to help. Donations, volunteers, the works.

 

[lopaz]

wtf at politico. :lol They have a run of the mill obama/mccain story about the internet up and this is the picture they chose. Weirdest images of both of them possible

no way...

BOROCK OBOMA

 

[TheGrayGhost]

yikes. oh well

Re: "Bring gun to a knife fight"

I actually think this was a bad move on Obama's part. Yes, we know where it came from and the relative appropriateness of its use can be debated, but in terms of a political candidate using it in this case it just seems a bit ugly.

It goes counter his 'change' message, speaks to OLD politics, and brings along with it a whole host of negative imagery that a black candidate does not need.

I'm against Obama on this GAFFE

It'sa quote from a movie. Sean Connery's character says it in The Untouchables.

 

[sangreal]

It'sa quote from a movie. Sean Connery's character says it in The Untouchables.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7g0RLyxP13o

 

[Cheebs]

Anyone watch the Kimmel interview with Barack a few minutes ago? It was cute. They did the fist bump thing lol. And I think Obama might be the first presidential nominee to make a reference to Ben Affleck.

 

[demon]

Midwestern Flooding: McCain Prays; Obama Answers!

Obama visited the flooded Midwest later Saturday, stopping in Quincy, IL, to help fill sandbags.

fixed

 

[Amir0x]

It'sa quote from a movie. Sean Connery's character says it in The Untouchables.

I know where it's from.

To quote myself:

Yes, we know where it came from

That does not make the quote right to use in the context of this political battle.

 

[GhaleonEB]

That does not make the quote right to use in the context of this political battle.

It was a metaphor. Rather apt, considering he's from Chicago.

 

[demon]

It was a metaphor. Rather apt, considering he's from Chicago.

Using it was perfectly fine. It's just the risk of it being taken out of context by retarded republicans and retarded talking heads that made it a bad choice of words.

 

[Amir0x]

It was a metaphor. Rather apt, considering he's from Chicago.

Again, it was NOT apt. It was inappropriate. "Chicago style politics", at least in the way it's being used in this metaphor, is exactly what Obama is FIGHTING AGAINST. It doesn't denote toughness, it suggests getting down and dirty.

If you do not see where this is wrong, why it's a negative Obama gaffe (and all the extremely weighty connotations it brings being used by a black candidate for president) then I'm going to have to side for the first time with the "blinders on" crowd.

 

[Tamanon]

Again, it was NOT apt. It was inappropriate. "Chicago style politics", at least in the way it's being used in this metaphor, is exactly what Obama is FIGHTING AGAINST. It doesn't denote toughness, it suggests getting down and dirty.

If you do not see where this is wrong, why it's a negative Obama gaffe (and all the extremely weighty connotations it brings being used by a black candidate for president) then I'm going to have to side for the first time with the "blinders on" crowd.

Or maybe not everyone thinks the same way as you do. Don't fall into the trap.

 

[GhaleonEB]

Again, it was NOT apt. It was inappropriate. "Chicago style politics", at least in the way it's being used in this metaphor, is exactly what Obama is FIGHTING AGAINST. It doesn't denote toughness, it suggests getting down and dirty.

If you do not see where this is wrong, why it's a negative Obama gaffe (and all the extremely weighty connotations it brings being used by a black candidate for president) then I'm going to have to side for the first time with the "blinders on" crowd.

And I think you're over-reacting, hardcore.

 

[Amir0x]

Or maybe not everyone thinks the same way as you do. Don't fall into the trap.

No, it's blinders pure and simple. There is no conceivable way that all you guys who RAILED against Hillary Clinton for going dirty, and being this icon of negative campaigning, are suddenly going to see the light of a politician who uses a metaphor which factually denotes the idea of DIRTY FIGHTING with SUPERIOR FIREPOWER, in this case political.

This is the very opposite of his campaign message, it's very out-of-character for what he has shown.

+ Pushing back on Iraq = Tough
+ Pushing back on Economy = Tough
+ Suggesting he'll bring a gun to a knife fight as a metaphor for being dirtier and rougher than his opponent, in the uniquely awful way of Chicago politics = NOT TOUGH.

I am not overreacting, because I don't think it's some thing that's going to derail his candidacy. It's just a pure negative gaffe, and there's really little argument to be made otherwise.

 

[Karma Kramer]

Using it was perfectly fine. It's just the risk of it being taken out of context by retarded republicans and retarded talking heads that made it a bad choice of words.

This is a decent point... but Amir0x, you are seriously freaking out over something that within context was both hilarious and on point with Obama's message of getting tough with McCain on the issues.

Obama is not going to run a light, fun, love everyone campaign. If he wants to get half the stuff he wants to accomplish in Washington he is going to have to roll up his sleeves and get down in the mud.

That doesn't mean he has to be sly and play cheap... cause Obama will never ever play the game that Republicans have been playing for the past 8 years. He won't do it because he was raised by his Mother to be better then that.

So if you are concerned about Obama becoming some sort of political sly machine, that is going to brush the issues under the rug and just play silly smear games, then sit back and take a deep breath, cause that is not going to happen.

 

[mj1108]

And let's not forget Obama's website:

http://www.barackobama.com/index.php

Beyond just showing up, or putting out statements, Obama put his organization to work in order to help. Donations, volunteers, the works.

I think Obama has singlehandedly done more to help the victims than the Bush administration and McCain combined.

 

[Amir0x]

This is a decent point... but Amir0x, you are seriously freaking out over something that within context was both hilarious and on point with Obama's message of getting tough with McCain on the issues.

Obama is not going to run a light, fun, love everyone campaign. If he wants to get half the stuff he wants to accomplish in Washington he is going to have to roll up his sleeves and get down in the mud.

That doesn't mean he has to be sly and play cheap... cause Obama will never ever play the game that Republicans have been playing for the past 8 years. He won't do it because he was raised by his Mother to be better then that.

So if you are concerned about Obama becoming some sort of political sly machine, that is going to brush the issues under the rug and just play silly smear games, then sit back and take a deep breath, cause that is not going to happen.

I am not freaking out at all. Nor am I thinking it was "out of context." I think Obama meant it how he did, but it was simply inappropriate and counterproductive to his entire campaign. Someone like you who believes DIRTY POLITICS is inevitable, something we should all "live with", may think this is a positive. This is your right.

But it is certainly a negative gaffe to anyone who believes Obama's message is to be above the fray, which in this specific instance he demonstrated he was not.

 

[Tamanon]

No, it's blinders pure and simple. There is no conceivable way that all you guys who RAILED against Hillary Clinton for going dirty, and being this icon of negative campaigning, are suddenly going to see the light of a politician who uses a metaphor which factually denotes the idea of DIRTY FIGHTING with SUPERIOR FIREPOWER, in this case political.

This is the very opposite of his campaign message, it's very out-of-character for what he has shown.

+ Pushing back on Iraq = Tough
+ Pushing back on Economy = Tough
+ Suggesting he'll bring a gun to a knife fight as a metaphor for being dirtier and rougher than his opponent, in the uniquely awful way of Chicago politics = NOT TOUGH.

I am not overreacting, because I don't think it's some thing that's going to derail his candidacy. It's just a pure negative gaffe, and there's really little argument to be made otherwise.

Fuck you if you're going to take any disagreement with this issue as "blinders-on". It was a FUCKING METAPHOR and no matter what Obama says these days its twisted into him being negative or evil. All he said is that if McCain goes into negative campaigning that he'll fight back, he didn't say he'd go more negative.

 

[Karma Kramer]

I am not freaking out at all. Nor am I thinking it was "out of context." I think Obama meant it how he did, but it was simply inappropriate and counterproductive to his entire campaign. Someone like you who believes DIRTY POLITICS is inevitable, something we should all "live with", may think this is a positive. This is your right.

But it is certainly a negative gaffe to anyone who believes Obama's message is to be above the fray, which in this specific instance he demonstrated he was not.

I think this is a positive because I think it shows Obama is going to be tough, which is different then playing dirty.

The comment Obama made, simply displayed Obama's confidence in himself. It wasn't even an attack on McCain or anything. I really don't get what you are trying to argue right now.

 

[Odrion]

He's just trying to look tough, do you really think he'll call McCain a secret muslim?

 

[demon]

I think this is a positive because I think it shows Obama is going to be tough, which is different then playing dirty.

The comment Obama made, simply displayed Obama's confidence in himself. It wasn't even an attack on McCain or anything. I really don't get what you are trying to argue right now.

he's seeing things that aren't there. Chicago-style politics? Comparing it to the bullshit hillary pulled? get real.

 

[Karma Kramer]

Fuck you if you're going to take any disagreement with this issue as "blinders-on". It was a FUCKING METAPHOR and no matter what Obama says these days its twisted into him being negative or evil. All he said is that if McCain goes into negative campaigning that he'll fight back, he didn't say he'd go more negative.

I agree with you Tamanon, but you need to calm down. I know its a tough day for you... tough day for me too (lost my dad when I was 11).

Amir0x, just mis-understood the comment and felt he was being rallied against by his own base.

 

[Amir0x]

There's no misunderstanding of the comment. It was said precisely how it was said, and the "metaphor" has a long standing meaning that is not open to interpretation. That you guys want to feel Obama can suddenly change its meaning is fine, but then the end result is he still used it inappropriately.

The phrase "bring a gun to a knife fight" means one thing, and nothing else: fighting dirty to win.

All he said is that if McCain goes into negative campaigning that he'll fight back, he didn't say he'd go more negative.

But that is LITERALLY WHAT THE METAPHOR MEANS. It IMPLIES dirty fighting.

Holy shit, how hard is this to understand. It's not fucking calculus.

 

[Tamanon]

Eh I'm calm, but thanks. I just curse a lot.:lol

Ami....the phrase means never being out-gunned. Not fighting dirty, just not under-armed. Never mind, think what you want.

 

[Karma Kramer]

There's no misunderstanding of the comment. It was said precisely how it was said, and the "metaphor" has a long standing meaning that is not open to interpretation. That you guys want to feel Obama can suddenly change its meaning is fine, but then the end result is he still used it inappropriately.

The phrase "bring a gun to a knife fight" means one thing, and nothing else: fighting dirty to win.

....

At a fundraiser last night in Philadelphia -- a unity event of sorts, featuring former Hillary-backers Ed Rendell and Michael Nutter -- Barack Obama vowed that he will not be passive in the face of political attacks: "If they bring a knife to the fight, we bring a gun."

Look you can interpret the quote however you want... but even the article recognizes that Obama was simply displaying his toughness.

It doesn't mean Obama is suddenly going to start smearing McCain... it simply means he is going to be tough. Which is good.

Look, why don't we just see where this election goes, and then we will see who was right. If Obama starts playing dirty like McCain has or Clinton did... then perhaps he has changed his tactics completely and gone against everything he has said over the past two years almost.

 

[Amir0x]

Above: You guys are misunderstanding. I don't think OBAMA is now going to start going negative. I think this quote was a gaffe because it implies he would, even though he probably wouldn't. It evokes violent imagery, when he is a black candidate for the presidency and a lot of people have these biases.

As a political GAFFE, it's a pretty direct one. I don't think it will derail his campaign, I don't think he will now suddenly start going dirty. I think that's what the QUOTE suggested, and why it was wrong to use it.

Eh I'm calm, but thanks. I just curse a lot.:lol

Ami....the phrase means never being out-gunned. Not fighting dirty, just not under-armed. Never mind, think what you want.

It means going to the level of your opponent, correct. Even in the movie it was dragged from, what was the context it was being used? The dude had to GO dirty to WIN the fight against a dirty opponent.

Malone: You wanna know how to get Capone? They pull a knife, you pull a gun. He sends one of yours to the hospital, you send one of his to the morgue. *That's* the *Chicago* way! And that's how you get Capone. Now do you want to do that? Are you ready to do that? I'm offering you a deal. Do you want this deal?

There is little room for interpretation of the actual quote.

Did Obama actually mean he was GOING TO GO DIRTY, RAWR? I don't know, I doubt it. Does that mean the quote he used was inappropriate then, given the theme of his campaign? Absolutely.

 

[Karma Kramer]

This is going no where. Let's stop the sillyness.

 

[Deus Ex Machina]

Barack Obama's Speech on Father's Day

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hj1hCDjwG6M

He spoke the truth, with kindness and empathy...and the whole service was lovely.

This is a speech everyone should hear - if they could listen long enough.