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[Fragamemnon]

Who cares about those other reasons. I just care about the environmental impact. The payoff ain't worth it.

It's sort of a slippery (North!) slope argument for me-once we start drilling, roading, and pipelining the piss out of one wildlife refuge, are we going to start tearing up the all federal land in the US for energy exploitation? We, as a nation, have set this land aside for a damn good reason that a vast majority of Americans believe is worthwhile.

Edit: If America went ahead with this, we'd be total fucking hypocrites when discussing serious global environmental issues such as deforestation.

 

[Cooter]

Saying this person isn't qualified and doesn't have the judgement to be president is not on the same level as calling basically half of the country irrational or stupid. When the rhetoric get's to this level only bad things happen.

 

[ViperVisor]

US oil consumption is about 20.7 million barrels a day or (http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/ene_oil_con-energy-oil-consumption) about 7.5 billion barrels annually.

The US Imports 10 million barrels a day, six million of which come from OPEC nations (http://www.eia.doe.gov/basics/quickoil.html). This means the use imports about 3.6 billion barrels a year, including 2.2 billion a year from OPEC.

Drilling in Alaska, when you get rid of the partisan rhetoric and just look at the numbers, drilling in Alaska (not to mention off shore) will indeed help the energy situation.

In 1970 the US used 40 out of every 100 barrels of oil on Earth.

You do the math.

 

[pxleyes]

Yeah Obama is mother Teresa around here.
I like the guy, I'm not gonna bitch if he's president, but he's not 100% clean. He tells you exactly what you want to hear.

No, i didn't say he was clean. I asked what you claim he is lying about though.

 

[Gaborn]

Saying this person isn't qualified and doesn't have the judgement to be president is not on the same level as calling basically half of the country irrational or stupid. When the rhetoric get's to this level only bad things happen.

It certainly makes for EXCELLENT and entirely reasonable debate when people are calling every person that supports Republicans racists.

 

[Captain Pants]

Yeah Obama is Mother Teresa around here.
I like the guy, I'm not gonna bitch if he's president, but he's not 100% clean. He tells you exactly what you want to hear.

Being vague isn't going to win any arguments. What is Obama lying about?

 

[ronito]

Saying this person isn't qualified and doesn't have the judgement to be president is not on the same level as calling basically half of the country irrational or stupid. When the rhetoric get's to this level only bad things happen.

Oh totally. I mean it's not like we're calling the whole party incompetent, irresponsible, appeasers, elitests, terrrist sympathizers, unpatriotic and baby killers. Cause that would be just be wrong and anyone with an ounce of intellectual integrity would decry it as reprehensible.

 

[avaya]

:lol

Laugh it up. ANWR will not help your energy situation at all. The amount of oil there makes it a ridiculous place to drill.

The issue is the price of oil. Drilling in ANWR will do nothing to relieve that.

 

[Thunder Monkey]

Being vague isn't going to win any arguments. What is Obama lying about?

Republicans don't need no "facts".

Oh totally. I mean it's not like we're calling the whole party incompetent, irresponsible, appeasers, elitests, terrrist sympathizers, unpatriotic and baby killers. Cause that would be just be wrong and anyone with an ounce of intellectual integrity would decry it as reprehensible.

I am.

Republicans have become a scourge on America. Tear the entire party apart, and give Ron Paul his own party. The RoPa party.

If it means I never have to see the likes of Newt, Palin, or any of those other "conservatives" again I'll even donate a few hundred to the RoPa party.

 

[thefro]

BTW, that Gallup poll really shows what complete madness it is for Steve Schmidt to be trying to steer this campaign into a base turnout affair. It's insanity and David Plouffe and David Axelrod must be extremely excited about this turn the McCain campaign has made.

Yeah, it's a recipe for losing huge this year. Democratic turnout is going to be insane this year and Obama's ground game is top-notch.

In Ohio, for instance, McCain's going to be down 100,000s of votes before Election Day even begins. No more 6 hour lines at the polls in Dem Districts like 2004.

 

[Cheeto]

He tells you exactly what you want to hear.

Holy Shit, Obama is a politician?

 

[Mercury Fred]

Bush does not equal all Republicans and this type of language does nothing but divide and anger.

The party's platform isn't exclusive to Bush.

You are basically calling all people voting republican irrational.

That's right.

Hurray for class and respect for your opponets.

Since when do war mongering, race-baiting, gay-hating, science-rejecting, spend into oblivion, Constitution-shredding zealots deserve class or respect?

 

[Fragamemnon]

It certainly makes for EXCELLENT and entirely reasonable debate when people are calling every person that supports Republicans racists.

How are you supposed to debate most republicans anyway when they intentionally bubble themselves in a reality that is of their own groupthink and own creation? I stopped trying years ago and turned to mockery, reasoning and arguing with a huge majority of them with facts and science was like trying to assualt a brick wall with wet noodle.

 

[Trurl]

In 1970 the US used 40 out of every 100 barrels of oil on Earth.

http://i37.tinypic.com/35clcm0.jpg

You do the math.

China is the world's Nintendo.

 

[MThanded]

It certainly makes for EXCELLENT and entirely reasonable debate when people are calling every person that supports Republicans racists.

Some people get it straight. Your making generalizations just like those people do.

 

[jmdajr]

Holy Shit, Obama is a politician?

No shit. But it seems people forget that around here.
http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/factchecking_obama.html

Don't get so mad folks. I don't hate the guy, but he's trying to play the game just like everyone else.

 

[Stoney Mason]

It sucks. He has to play the game and pander the ultra conservative base. I guess he thinks he can't win as a moderate.

Then why should I believe he would govern as a moderate. He accuses Obama of putting himself above country. Isn't that exactly what Mccain is doing since he isn't running on what Republicans claim he is?

 

[NLB2]

Thing is though, since ANWR is way the fuck up north, oil companies aren't even all that interested in the area. The people who stand to benefit the most are those who own pipelines in Alaska because it'll allow them to continue using existing pipes for even more money.

So we'll increase domestic production and make money.

The horror.

 

[Mahadev]

Let's look at your post for reasons not to drill.

1. US oil companies are already sitting on large undrilled land holdings - Not reason not to drill

2. Any oil would take ten years or more to enter the market - Not a reason not to drill

3. The amount of oil available is a pittance, particularly given the 10 year delay - Not a reason not to drill

4. Time spent focused on drilling is time that could be better spent getting up to speed on alternatives - Not a reason not to drill

Did you swallow the stupid pill or something? How the fuck did you figure out that these aren't legitimate reasons not to drill? Am I speaking to a 10 year old? WTF?

 

[Hitokage]

It's sort of a slippery (North!) slope argument for me-once we start drilling, roading, and pipelining the piss out of one wildlife refuge, are we going to start tearing up the all federal land in the US for energy exploitation? We, as a nation, have set this land aside for a damn good reason that a vast majority of Americans believe is worthwhile.

Edit: If America went ahead with this, we'd be total fucking hypocrites when discussing serious global environmental issues such as deforestation.

People are also framing this solely in terms of short-term gas pump relief. That's fairly understandable, because paying up the ass to fill up your car hurts everyone in a way that's easy to grasp, but what's missing is any consideration of long-term costs from the effects of this policy. For example, it may be cheaper to eat at McDonalds every day compared to healthier alternatives, but you'll pay up the ass later in life, not in food costs, but in health care costs.

 

[speculawyer]

I am just so incredibly disgusted by this.

Palin's earmark requests: more per person than any other state

GOP vice presidential candidate Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin touts her record as a reformer who worked to end the "abuses of earmark spending in Congress." But Palin has embraced earmarks from early on in her career as a mayor of Wasilla to the governor's mansion in Juneau. Just this year she sent to Sen. Ted. Stevens a proposal for 31 earmarks totaling $197 million — more, per person, than any other state.

ANCHORAGE — As she introduced herself to the nation Friday as the Republican vice-presidential candidate, Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin touted her record as a reformer who worked to end the "abuses of earmark spending in Congress."

But earmarks have never been a dirty word in Alaska, a huge state dotted with small communities that have enormous dollar needs for sewers, roads and other projects.

Instead, earmarks — pet projects that members of Congress fund but that no federal agency has requested — have become a mainstay of political life here, and one that Palin embraced from early on in her career as a mayor of Wasilla to the governor's mansion in Juneau.

Just this year, she sent to Sen. Ted. Stevens, R-Alaska, a proposal for 31 earmarks totaling $197 million — more, per person, than any other state.

Her presidential running mate, Sen. John McCain, R-Ariz., does not sponsor earmarks, calling the practice of doling out favors, often with scant oversight, "disgraceful."

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2008154532_webpalin02m.html

 

[gcubed]

So we'll increase domestic production and make money.

The horror.

who will make money?

 

[Captain Pants]

No shit. But it seems people forget that around here.

So instead of specifically referencing anything Obama is lying about, you'd rather paint us Obama supporters as a bunch of cultist simpletons who see Obama as the second coming. Hilary tried that line of attack too, and it didn't work out so well.

 

[Thunder Monkey]

No shit. But it seems people forget that around here.

Seems to me you'd rather make a case that we don't know that, then realize we do and don't care.

The difference this election is between an old school burn it down and salt the Earth Republican, versus a guy that won't bring up his opponents personal failings and sticks to his opponents political failings.

It's the difference between Right and Wrong, Good and Evil. Your party sits on the side of evil. And not only do they accept that, they enjoy it.

 

[Agent Icebeezy]

Yeah Obama is Mother Teresa around here.
I like the guy, I'm not gonna bitch if he's president, but he's not 100% clean. He tells you exactly what you want to hear.

???

During his acceptance speech, he was touching on things Democrats never touch on.

 

[Gaborn]

Some people get it straight. Your making generalizations just like those people do.

It doesn't take many of those sorts of generalizations to make debate based on the merits of the issues wholly uninteresting.

 

[Fragamemnon]

who will make money?

I'm sure the oil companies will pass along their additional profits to the average consumer due to competitive pressures in the free market.

oh wait :lol :lol :lol :lol

 

[NLB2]

Did you swallow the stupid pill or something? How the fuck did you figure out that these aren't legitimate reasons not to drill? Am I speaking to a 10 year old? WTF?

Out of all four of the reasons, the only one that could possibly be a reason not to drill is the fourth one due to opportunity cost.

But if a corporation decides it makes sense to drill, even if it takes ten years, why the fuck would we not drill, or if the amount of oil is a pittance (which I showed in a later post its not) why would we not drill?

Dems are acting like we can only do one thing at a time, rather than focusing on drilling and developing alternative energy solutions. Even Obama wants to do this, but there's still a ton of friction from Dems. Why? The environment? Some illogical hatred for oil companies?

 

[Hitokage]

Oh, I forgot to mention that drilling here at home means absolutely nothing if it's just going to be a part of the global oil supply, subject to global oil demand. A few million more barrels of oil on the global market won't mean a damn thing since we have India and China to buy it up.

And before you respond saying we'll force the oil to stay in our borders, think of all those evil latin america countries which nationalized industries so their people would get the profits from their nation's resources previously used by multinational companies.

 

[RiskyChris]

Oh, I forgot to mention that drilling here at home means absolutely nothing if it's just going to be a part of the global oil supply, subject to global oil demand.

It won't mean nothing. It'll mean somebody is going to make a lot of money.

 

[NLB2]

who will make money?

Oil companies (and all of their millions of share holders), their workers, the consumers (due to decreased prices in oil), the gov't (due to taxes on oil companies (which would rake in billions of dollars).

And even if it was only oil companies who would make money, why is that a reason not to drill?

 

[Barrett2]

Oh, I forgot to mention that drilling here at home means absolutely nothing if it's just going to be a part of the global oil supply, subject to global oil demand. A few million more barrels of oil on the global market won't mean a damn thing since we have India and China to buy it up.

This is what I don't understand. Are Republicans so stupid as to think American oil companies will only sell to America? China will buy up the excess oil as fast as we can pump it.

Drilling in Alaska or off-shore would have NO meaningful effect on price, unless the Repubs nationalized the Alaskan supply... which would LITERALLY be Commie, unlike anything the Dems have every actually done.

 

[speculawyer]

Regarding this whole oil bit . . . Obama flip-flopped and has accepted some drilling. (Whether you like it or not).

So why is even much of an issue?


BTW, I think the world 'production' should be eliminated from discussions on oil. We don't 'produce' oil. We suck it out of the ground. The oil was produced by dead animals and plants from millions of years ago.

 

[Thunder Monkey]

Oh, I forgot to mention that drilling here at home means absolutely nothing if it's just going to be a part of the global oil supply, subject to global oil demand. A few million more barrels of oil on the global market won't mean a damn thing since we have India and China to buy it up.

The unfortunate part man is you write up intelligent posts to fight against a stupidity that would rather cover its ears then listen to reason.

At least us libruls read them.

 

[tanod]

Yeah, it's a recipe for losing huge this year. Democratic turnout is going to be insane this year and Obama's ground game is top-notch.

In Ohio, for instance, McCain's going to be down 100,000s of votes before Election Day even begins. No more 6 hour lines at the polls in Dem Districts like 2004.

Thankfully. The biggest lesson of Clinton's campaign that they didn't learn. Before they realize it, it will be too late.

EDIT: Where's the ratings from last night?

 

[Gaborn]

It won't mean nothing. It'll mean somebody is going to make a lot of money.

Which is inherently evil to some people :lol

The reality is that more drilling would increase the domestic supply as well as the global... but would ultimately lower prices for US because shipping costs would be much lower to the US, thus a larger portion of that oil would be bought domestically, the greater supply means... lower prices.

 

[mckmas8808]

He did actually say he wants to raise the biofuel mandate in his DNC acceptance speech, so I don't know how much it is pandering for Iowa Caucaus or how much it's just what he believes in. I mean, he still hasn't come around on nuclear, given how important global warming is, nuclear should be a no brainer.

Actually Obama is for nuclear power. His own state has the most nuclear power plants than any other state in America!

Why the fuck do people still think Obama is against nuclear power?

 

[Cooter]

God, I need to keep telling myself GAF does not represent America. How about the fact that we all are Americans and when you insult the intelligence of half of your fellow citizens you do nothing but add to the growing divide.

Let me try it and see how you like it. It's hard for me to respect the intelligence of democrats when they believe huge government programs and higher taxes in the investor community will strengthen our economy. How stupid can these people be?

See how stupid that sounds and how it brings the discussion to an insulting level instead of a natural disagreement.

I am.

Republicans have become a scourge on America. Tear the entire party apart, and give Ron Paul his own party. The RoPa party.

If it means I never have to see the likes of Newt, Palin, or any of those other "conservatives" again I'll even donate a few hundred to the RoPa party.

Yeah, let's tear the party apart. Hurray for freedom.

 

[Hitokage]

BTW, I think the world 'production' should be eliminated from discussions on oil. We don't 'produce' oil. We suck it out of the ground. The oil was produced by dead animals and plants from millions of years ago.

I'm not exactly in the mood to talk about how our present economic model is inherently unsustainable because it assumes infinite natural resources and all anyone has to do to get out of poverty is to dig more up than they are now.

The unfortunate part man is you write up intelligent posts to fight against a stupidity that would rather cover its ears then listen to reason.

At least us libruls read them.

To be fair, much of that was taken from this:

http://www.sciencefriday.com/program/archives/200807185

 

[NLB2]

This is what I don't understand. Are Republicans so stupid as to think American oil companies will only sell to America? China will buy up the excess oil as fast as we can pump it.

Drilling in Alaska or off-shore would have NO meaningful effect on price, unless the Repubs nationalized the Alaskan supply... which would LITERALLY be Commie, unlike anything the Dems have every actually done.

Even if American oil companies only sold to American consumers, it would not change the price of oil any differently than if they sold it on a global market (macro econ 101). Edit: Gaborn above is right that it might slightly affect domestic prices due to cost of shipping, but this is probably not too significant.

The importance is that it will 1. Increase global oil production and 2. In case of emergency, such as an OPEC embargo like in the 70s, domestic, non OPEC (and non Russian) production will be significantly higher and the effects of the embargo will be lessened.

 

[The Blue Jihad]

Thing is though, since ANWR is way the fuck up north, oil companies aren't even all that interested in the area. The people who stand to benefit the most are those who own pipelines in Alaska because it'll allow them to continue using existing pipes for even more money.

And uh...wouldn't that be Palin or some of her friends up there, if I'm not mistaken?

I seem to recall reading about some annual $2000 check to each Alaskan due to record oil profits or something.

This just seems very strange. Like Dick Cheney and Haliburton.

 

[Tamanon]

This is what I don't understand. Are Republicans so stupid as to think American oil companies will only sell to America? China will buy up the excess oil as fast as we can pump it.

Drilling in Alaska or off-shore would have NO meaningful effect on price, unless the Repubs nationalized the Alaskan supply... which would LITERALLY be Commie, unlike anything the Dems have every actually done.

Actually they don't care, they've actively voted against resolutions that would require new drilling to be sold in America. But then again, we get too much from elsewhere for it to matter either way, it's not a supply problem to begin with.

 

[crisdecuba]

Obama on CNN right now, campaigning in PA.

- Cris

 

[JCreasy]

GOOD MORNING GAF!

Dems are doing EXACTLY what I need them to do: go after the villains early!

Kathy is already at it . . .

"I live in the American heartland, and have been a governor [here] for six years," she said. "I don't know any mayor in any small town in Kansas -- and we have a lot of mayors of small towns -- who hires a lobbyist and goes after earmarks the way Sarah Palin did."

Perfect.

 

[CharlieDigital]

I read one of the better responses to the experience issue here:

Can we conservatives please stop kidding ourselves about Barack Obama’s “qualifications”? Yes, if I had been a Democratic donor back in 2006, I’d sure worry about whether Barack Obama had what it took to be president. That was before he took on the toughest political operation in America, before he beat Bill and Hillary Clinton, before he won 18 million primary votes.

Obama’s nomination was not handed to him. He fought hard for it and won against the odds. “Qualifications” predict achievement. Once you have achieved, it doesn’t matter what your qualifications are. Who cares whether the guy who built a big company from nothing didn’t have much of a resume when he started?

About From (from wiki):

David J. Frum (born 1960) is a Canadian-born neoconservative and journalist active in the both US and Canadian political arenas. A former economic speechwriter for President George W. Bush, he is also the author of the first "insider" book about the Bush presidency.

 

[Thunder Monkey]

Which is inherently evil to some people :lol

The reality is that more drilling would increase the domestic supply as well as the global... but would ultimately lower prices for US because shipping costs would be much lower to the US, thus a larger portion of that oil would be bought domestically, the greater supply means... lower prices.

Just like Iraq amirite?

We start drilling and for all we know speculators will start figuring the use of this gas into the prices. "We are running out!" And costs will skyrocket.

 

[polyh3dron]

Yeah Obama is Mother Teresa around here.
I like the guy, I'm not gonna bitch if he's president, but he's not 100% clean. He tells you exactly what you want to hear.

The Republicans just finished a night of speeches with VERIFIABLE LIES, Obama hasn't been called out on any lies like this, but every politician lies, therefore I'm voting for McCain.

That's what your statement there just told me.

 

[Mercury Fred]

God, I need to keep telling myself GAF does not represent America. How about the fact that we all are Americans and when you insult the intelligence of half of your fellow citizens you do nothing but add to the growing divide.

It's really rich when Republicans ask for an olive branch when they've spent the last eight years raping the country. Oh that's right-- two stolen elections= "a mandate."

 

[Y2Kev]

Even if American oil companies only sold to American consumers, it would not change the price of oil any differently than if they sold it on a global market (macro econ 101). Edit: Gaborn above is right that it might slightly affect domestic prices due to cost of shipping, but this is probably not too significant.

The importance is that it will 1. Increase global oil production and 2. In case of emergency, such as an OPEC embargo like in the 70s, domestic, non OPEC (and non Russian) production will be significantly higher and the effects of the embargo will be lessened.

Could you refresh my memory as to why this is? Why does it not affect US prices if it is sold strictly to US consumers?

 

[FlyinJ]

It won't mean nothing. It'll mean somebody is going to make a lot of money.

And that is the entire point of this whole "debate". How any sane, thinking person who has lived in the US or observed US policy for the past eight years could not realize this just boggles my mind.