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[Steve Youngblood]

It's sort of a slippery (North!) slope argument for me-once we start drilling, roading, and pipelining the piss out of one wildlife refuge, are we going to start tearing up the all federal land in the US for energy exploitation? We, as a nation, have set this land aside for a damn good reason that a vast majority of Americans believe is worthwhile.

Edit: If America went ahead with this, we'd be total fucking hypocrites when discussing serious global environmental issues such as deforestation.

I completely understand where you're coming from, and your argument constitutes the moral opposition to drilling.

Speaking purely for myself, I take the environmental and long-term drawbacks to oil dependency into consideration, but I might be willing to bend if I saw some evidence to suggest that the pros outweight the cons. If you told me that there was more oil in Alaska than in the Middle East, I might be willing to set my ideals aside for pragmatism. As it stands, though, the studies I've seen don't really persuade me that drilling is the answer. At best, I think it could play a small role in bridging the gap to alternatives, but it doesn't deserve prominence as "something we must do now to save us from the impending energy crisis!"

 

[forgeforsaken]

Oh, I forgot to mention that drilling here at home means absolutely nothing if it's just going to be a part of the global oil supply, subject to global oil demand. A few million more barrels of oil on the global market won't mean a damn thing since we have India and China to buy it up.

And before you respond saying we'll force the oil to stay in our borders, think of all those evil latin america countries which nationalized industries so their people would get the profits from their nation's resources previously used by multinational companies.

Yeah I keep wondering every time the republicans bring this up if they are really talking about nationalizing the oil industry.

 

[Mahadev]

Which is inherently evil to some people :lol

The reality is that more drilling would increase the domestic supply as well as the global... but would ultimately lower prices for US because shipping costs would be much lower to the US, thus a larger portion of that oil would be bought domestically, the greater supply means... lower prices.

The reality is that you don't know how to read. We've repeated again and again and we're provided facts as to how incredibly marginal the supply will be and how long it'll take to dig this oil but you keep ignoring it on purpose.

 

[avaya]

Even if American oil companies only sold to American consumers, it would not change the price of oil any differently than if they sold it on a global market (macro econ 101). Edit: Gaborn above is right that it might slightly affect domestic prices due to cost of shipping, but this is probably not too significant.

The importance is that it will 1. Increase global oil production and 2. In case of emergency, such as an OPEC embargo like in the 70s, domestic, non OPEC (and non Russian) production will be significantly higher and the effects of the embargo will be lessened.

Facepalm.gf

 

[Cooter]

Seems to me you'd rather make a case that we don't know that, then realize we do and don't care.

The difference this election is between an old school burn it down and salt the Earth Republican, versus a guy that won't bring up his opponents personal failings and sticks to his opponents political failings.

It's the difference between Right and Wrong, Good and Evil. Your party sits on the side of evil. And not only do they accept that, they enjoy it.

Jesus, can we have some sort of respectful discussion? Enough already.

 

[Thunder Monkey]

Yeah, let's tear the party apart. Hurray for freedom.

Tear it apart and build something better.

That's not just a mantra, that's "Change you can believe in."

Jesus, can we have some sort of respectful discussion? Enough already.

Sorry, respectful discussion was forfeited when your party decided to light fire under an already pissed off left.

All that's left are flaming liberals.

 

[Fragamemnon]

It's really rich when Republicans ask for an olive branch when they've spent the last eight years raping the country. Oh that's right-- two stolen elections= "a mandate."

Yeah, we really aren't very interested in working with the free market fascists and fundie nutjobs-we'll take the rockerfeller-style republicans, independents, and liberals and just ignore the bleating from those groups while we get shit done the best we can.

At least that's my hope, and I'm sorta convinced-SORTA-that Obama is going to tack that way when elected.

 

[Dr_Cogent]

Jesus, can we have some sort of respectful discussion? Enough already.

:lol

Surely you jest.

 

[Xisiqomelir]

GOOD MORNING GAF!

Dems are doing EXACTLY what I need them to do: go after the villains early!

Kathy is already at it . . .

"I live in the American heartland, and have been a governor [here] for six years," she said. "I don't know any mayor in any small town in Kansas -- and we have a lot of mayors of small towns -- who hires a lobbyist and goes after earmarks the way Sarah Palin did."

Perfect.

Our girl Kate!

 

[MaddenNFL64]

This is what I don't understand. Are Republicans so stupid as to think American oil companies will only sell to America? China will buy up the excess oil as fast as we can pump it.

Drilling in Alaska or off-shore would have NO meaningful effect on price, unless the Repubs nationalized the Alaskan supply... which would LITERALLY be Commie, unlike anything the Dems have every actually done.

Wait, so why the fuck are they asking to DRILL HERE, DRILL NOW? If it won't effect global price much, and isn't guaranteed for the U.S, who gives a fuck? It's a worthless debate to have then. Can someone get this line of reasoning to the media outlets, so they cant shut up?

 

[jmdajr]

The Republicans just finished a night of speeches with VERIFIABLE LIES, Obama hasn't been called out on any lies like this, but every politician lies, therefore I'm voting for McCain.

That's what your statement there just told me.

and if I were, so what? I go on your poopie list?

 

[Mercury Fred]

Jesus, can we have some sort of respectful discussion? Enough already.

Yes, let's show the Republicans the same respect they've shown for poor working Americans, gay people, non-Christians, science, the rule of law, the Constitution and the environment.

Honestly, it boggles the mind to think that Republicans feel that they deserve any shred of civility or respect.

 

[MThanded]

Gaborn, King_Slander,GDubya,Xenon match made in heaven. When people provide facts they always step around. I dont get it. Just find stuff to refute it and people wont be on you as much.

 

[scorcho]

The importance is that it will 1. Increase global oil production and 2. In case of emergency, such as an OPEC embargo like in the 70s, domestic, non OPEC (and non Russian) production will be significantly higher and the effects of the embargo will be lessened.

there isn't enough crude to make this happen, which makes this point irrelevant.

http://www.eia.doe.gov/pub/oil_gas/...ational_wildlife_refuge/html/execsummary.html

http://www.eia.doe.gov/oiaf/aeo/otheranalysis/ongr.html

 

[Fragamemnon]

Jesus, can we have some sort of respectful discussion? Enough already.

It's like you're asking for the creamy bipartisan filling in the afternoon here, to stuff between two (quite vanilla, I might add, if you get my drift) Rage You Can Believe In cookies at the RNC.

Needless to say, not likely.

 

[NLB2]

Could you refresh my memory as to why this is? Why does it not affect US prices if it is sold strictly to US consumers?

Because oil is sold on an international market, the price is set where the international supply curve meets the international demand curve.

If all the oil from ANWR was sold to American consumers, American consumers would not need to purchase as much oil from foreign producers and those foreign producers would sell the oil to other countries.

Think of it this way.

The world production of fidgets is 100 units a year. Americans consume 10 widgets per year. Americans begin to produce an addition 2 widgets per year and sell them to only American consumers at international prices. Americans now only need to purchase eight fidgets from foreign producers, so those extra two widgets get sold to other countries at the international price. The net result is that the price of widgets will be slightly less because supply has increased slightly, but the prices will still be the same.

This assumes two things:
1. Shipping costs are negligible.
2. The newly produced American widgets, though sold only to American consumers, are sold at a market price.

 

[polyh3dron]

and if I were, so what? I go on your poopie list?

No, that would be an insult to the poop.

 

[speculawyer]

Let me try it and see how you like it. It's hard for me to respect the intelligence of democrats when they believe huge government programs and higher taxes in the investor community will strengthen our economy. How stupid can these people be?

FAIL.

1) You are assuming facts that are not true. I'm not a democrat but I'm sure they wouldn't characterize their position that way.
2) Vague . . . what is a 'huge government program' (A $1 Trillion pointless war?) and what is 'higher taxes' (high enough taxes so we don't run massive deficits that devalue the currency . . . is that stupid)?
3) It is an area of debate where there are no clear answers, thus you can't prove that a certain position is 'stupid'.

What drives me crazy about so many conservatives is that there are plain hard facts that they often just get completely wrong. That is ignorant. And how can you possibly come up with sane policies if you can't even get the basic facts right?

My posterboy for this is ComputerNerd. I slapped him down one a lie a while back. Then last night, he bought up the exact same false fact. I practically had an aneurysm.

 

[Barrett2]

Wait, so why the fuck are they asking to DRILL HERE, DRILL NOW? If it won't effect global price much, and isn't guaranteed for the U.S, who gives a fuck? It's a worthless debate to have then. Can someone get this line of reasoning to the media outlets, so they cant shut up?

Why bother? Most Americans are such idiots that they now support off-shore drilling, despite the government's own projections that it would only reduce prices by 6 pennies per-gallon.... in 5 years when the wells are operational...

I think the best Obama can do regarding energy policy is put together four or five bullet point sentences about energy policy and just repeat them over and over..

 

[jmdajr]

No, that would be an insult to the poop.

:lol :lol :lol

whatever you say.

 

[human5892]

I disagree with more drilling in terms of its effectiveness (and for that matter, its appropriateness vis a vis the environment), but I think Cooter's original point -- that it's important for the Democrats to embrace it as part of a compromise -- is well-taken. My father is a blue collar Obama supporter, but before Obama came around to the idea of a compromise, that was a major sticking point for him. "We just have to DRILL," he kept saying, and nothing I could say would convince him otherwise.

 

[bob_arctor]

*USA!USA!USA!USA!USA!*

 

[theBishop]

Sam Harris - Average Isn't Good Enough

Holy shit.. fast forward the video to 2:30 (where Palin speaks) and read the article while the video plays. Eeerie.

 

[Xisiqomelir]

Yes, let's show the Republicans the same respect they've shown for poor working Americans, gay people, non-Christians, science, the rule of law, the Constitution and the environment.

Honestly, it boggles the mind to think that Republicans feel that they deserve any shred of civility or respect.

It's like you're asking for the creamy bipartisan filling in the afternoon here, to stuff between two (quite vanilla, I might add, if you get my drift) Rage You Can Believe In cookies at the RNC.

Needless to say, not likely.

I'm so glad we have Clinton supporters in the party.

 

[Thunder Monkey]

Yes, let's show the Republicans the same respect they've shown for poor working Americans, gay people, non-Christians, science, the rule of law, the Constitution and the environment.

Honestly, it boggles the mind to think that Republicans feel that they deserve any shred of civility or respect.

I really feel the same way.

Why show respect when it's not mutual? It's bad enough that the party itself is a lying cesspool of corruption and evil.

It's even worse when followers of that enigmatic God called GOP write off what we say as cultish behavior, and then act like they have a leg to stand on with morality.

Republican morality is an oxymoron.

 

[~Devil Trigger~]

Jesus, can we have some sort of respectful discussion? Enough already.

 

[speculawyer]

Because oil is sold on an international market, the price is set where the international supply curve meets the international demand curve.

If all the oil from ANWR was sold to American consumers, American consumers would not need to purchase as much oil from foreign producers and those foreign producers would sell the oil to other countries.

But that won't happen. Or are proposing protectionism?

By what I understand, the oil from Alaska would most likely be sent to the Asian market.


I say drill ANWR but not in most near offshore places. Look, Rebublican Governors have been the ones stopping drilling off Florida. Then use all the royalties for alternative subsidies and development. Call it the 'seedcorn' initiative.

 

[Byakuya769]

It's sort of a slippery (North!) slope argument for me-once we start drilling, roading, and pipelining the piss out of one wildlife refuge, are we going to start tearing up the all federal land in the US for energy exploitation? We, as a nation, have set this land aside for a damn good reason that a vast majority of Americans believe is worthwhile.

Edit: If America went ahead with this, we'd be total fucking hypocrites when discussing serious global environmental issues such as deforestation.

"Guahahaha, save mother earth!!!"

Not only that, but any oil we produce here will be subject to the world market. Those companies are international conglomerate, they don't separate their oil by "made in america" and "made elsewhere" and then fix prices accordingly. The oil produced will go to the market and its demand. All you "rah rah capitalism" guys should KNOW this...

 

[theBishop]

Why bother? Most Americans are such idiots that they now support off-shore drilling, despite the government's own projections that it would only reduce prices by 6 pennies per-gallon.... in 5 years when the wells are operational...

I think the best Obama can do regarding energy policy is put together four or five bullet point sentences about energy policy and just repeat them over and over..

It's a special thing when Americans demand "details" from their leaders. They claim to want details, but they rarely elect intellectuals. Basically, they want smoke blown up their ass until their brain says "TMI, dood".

 

[Barrett2]

What I love is how the tone of this discussion has turned so rabidly anti-Republican! But really, how can we not, after that sickening display last night? When I saw Mittens wink at someone after making his Michelle Obama joke, I knew right then this election was going straight to 2004 tactics...

 

[Fragamemnon]

Axelrod on Palin:

"She is deft at going on the attack. For someone who makes the point that she is not from Washington, she looks like she would fit in very well there," Axelrod told reporters on the campaign plane in Pittsburgh, Pa. "These attacks all felt very familiar to Americans who are used to this kind of thing from Washington."
Axelrod said her speech was riddled with distortions.

"Right down the line," he said. "She tried to attack Obama by saying he had no significant legislative accomplishments -- maybe that's what she was told -- but she should talk to Sen. Lugar, talk to Sen. Coburn, talk to people across the aisle in Illinois where he passed dozens of major laws to expand health care reform welfare, reduce taxes on working families. So I think she had an assignment and she went out and she discharged it."

The pivot-that Palin sounded like more of the same tired Washington politics-is 100% the correct response to the speech and one that should resonate pretty well. I'm not so sure that the second paragraph is as good-part of the GOP's concerted-and ridiculous-defense of Palin's experience has been to directly drag in Obama's experience questions. Though it is good that they are fighting back, it's not the ground that they want to fight back on.

They should have run with a second paragraph talking about her total mendacity on the Bridge to Nowhere. That's got both traction and teeth to it.

 

[Mahadev]

*USA!USA!USA!USA!USA!*

ZERO! ZERO! ZERO!

 

[Karma Kramer]

You guys are freaking out over something that did little to help McCain's campaign. Yeah Republicans can be nasty and their hypocrites... this isn't helping their chances.

We should be celebrating!

 

[gkryhewy]

What makes you say that? If the location of the produciton sites have been made. It'll take 4 years, tops, for the engineering and construction. You could pretty much cut that in half for a fast-tracked job that uses the cookie-cutter mentality. I know, I'm finishing up a major site right now. What's fishy about all this drill, drill, drill stuff. Is that the government shouldn't be needed to push it. The price of oil should be enough insentive to the private companies to start drilling. As it stands, it may not be cost effective to drill in the US, I don't know.There could be alot of red tape preventing oil companies from making worth-while money in the US.

What is the limiting factor for the oil companies from using US soil? Quantity?

:lol

You are speaking from the perspective of Canada, which is petro-rich.

To your bold point, EXACTLY. The Oil industry has been one of the most powerful lobbies in Washington for 75 years. Republicans (more specifically, John McCain since he realized he doesn't have a leg to stand on this cycle) would have us believe that if there were enough oil in offshore areas to net the petrocompanies a SINGLE FUCKING DOLLAR, they wouldn't have drilled it 10, 20 years ago? That this uber-lobby, which has gotten everything it's wanted to 75 years, with the US now in the position of a used crack whore, somehow just couldn't crack the offshore drilling nut because of LIBRULS?

Give me a fucking break. It's a red herring; opiate for the masses.

Meanwhile oil is falling past $100/barrel, gas will come down below $3, and this will become a non-issue until it really IS a crisis.

 

[fin]

Laugh it up. ANWR will not help your energy situation at all. The amount of oil there makes it a ridiculous place to drill.

The issue is the price of oil. Drilling in ANWR will do nothing to relieve that.

I completely agree. Increasing the production of oil isn't going to cause the price of gas to decrease, ever. Price per barrel is around $108, down from $140 last month. I'm not seeing the savings at the pumps.

Where drilling is going to help is in the economy. It'll take more than just the ANWR for that, hopefully there are sites that are more central so that people don't have to migrate up north. It'll create jobs and increase cash flow so that paying such high prices for gas is do-able. Where I'm from, kids graduating from high school can go and work on the rigs starting at over $20/hr. Hell, 7-11 pays like $14 starting wage.

Harvesting natural resources can have a huge impact on a cultures economy, load up CIV:REV and find out . That's IF there is enough natural resources in the US.

 

[Y2Kev]

Because oil is sold on an international market, the price is set where the international supply curve meets the international demand curve.

If all the oil from ANWR was sold to American consumers, American consumers would not need to purchase as much oil from foreign producers and those foreign producers would sell the oil to other countries.

Think of it this way.

The world production of fidgets is 100 units a year. Americans consume 10 widgets per year. Americans begin to produce an addition 2 widgets per year and sell them to only American consumers at international prices. Americans now only need to purchase eight fidgets from foreign producers, so those extra two widgets get sold to other countries at the international price. The net result is that the price of widgets will be slightly less because supply has increased slightly, but the prices will still be the same.

This assumes two things:
1. Shipping costs are negligible.
2. The newly produced American widgets, though sold only to American consumers, are sold at a market price.

Gotcha. I was not questioning you at all, just looking for the rationale because I was curious.

I took macro last semester and I just wanted to see if my hunch was correct. Thanks

 

[Mahadev]

Because oil is sold on an international market, the price is set where the international supply curve meets the international demand curve.

If all the oil from ANWR was sold to American consumers, American consumers would not need to purchase as much oil from foreign producers and those foreign producers would sell the oil to other countries.

Think of it this way.

The world production of fidgets is 100 units a year. Americans consume 10 widgets per year. Americans begin to produce an addition 2 widgets per year and sell them to only American consumers at international prices. Americans now only need to purchase eight fidgets from foreign producers, so those extra two widgets get sold to other countries at the international price. The net result is that the price of widgets will be slightly less because supply has increased slightly, but the prices will still be the same.

This assumes two things:
1. Shipping costs are negligible.
2. The newly produced American widgets, though sold only to American consumers, are sold at a market price.

Hey guys look at this republican, he is against the free market. Gaborn, JayDubya ATTACK!

 

[~Devil Trigger~]

ZERO! ZERO! ZERO!

DRILL BABY DRILL!

 

[CharlieDigital]

Gaborn, King_Slander,GDubya,Xenon match made in heaven. When people provide facts they always step around. I dont get it. Just find stuff to refute it and people wont be on you as much.

Their positions are based more on opinion and theory (you know, kind of like how in theory, Libertarianism is AWESOME!). Kind of like how trickle down economics works...in theory. If you can only back up your statements with opinion and theory (not in the scientific definition of theory as in "Theory of Gravity" and "Theory of Evolution"), then you can't sway them because you cannot disprove their theory (even if their model fails over and over and over again).

The model is everything; it makes so much logical sense that any evidence to the contrary is discarded as not complete enough or not good enough. In theory, a "conservative" government should have cut back on spending. "Hey, but Bush...". Nope, NOT CONSERVATIVE ENOUGH BITCHES blah blah blah Democratic majority! blah blah :lol

Of course, this is ignoring the fact that the so called "majority" is razor thin and it's only been in place for 1.5 of the last 8 years of Bush and Co.

Again, you can't reason with them. Best to just skip over their posts. Gaborn is like a walking contradiction (and I think he finds great joy in that and the attention he generally gets on these boards). There's no logical closure to any of his statements based on the historical facts or any fact for that matter. It's all about the model.

 

[PhoenixDark]

Alaska governor and vice presidential candidate Sarah Palin’s speech at the Republican National Convention last night drew more than 12.75 million viewers on the three broadcast networks, beating out the audiences that tuned into the Democratic convention last week to watch Sen. Hillary Clinton and Sen. Joe Biden.

Preliminary national data from Nielsen Media Research shows that’s slightly ahead of the 12.5 million that saw the broadcast coverage of Sen. Clinton’s call for party unity on night 2 of last week’s Democratic gathering and Sen. Joe Biden’s speech accepting the VP nomination for the Democrats on night 3 of their convention last week.

Gov. Palin’s audience was up from the less than 11 million people who watched former Democrat-turned-Independent Sen. Joe Lieberman Tuesday night on the three broadcast networks’ coverage of the GOP gathering.

It’s also up from the 10.32 million who watched convention specials on the broadcast networks on night 3 of the Republican gathering in 2004.

NBC won the network race at 10 p.m. with an average 7.62 million viewers, according to fast national data from Nielsen Media Research.

ABC finished the three-way broadcast race with an average 5.05 million viewers. CBS was third with 4.63 million viewers.

http://www.tvweek.com/news/2008/09/palin_beats_hillary_biden_in_b.php

Not surprising considering all the media attention she's received. Can't wait to see polls in the next few days

 

[Hitokage]

It's amusing how Palin has been described as a "breath of fresh air" when all she does is say the same damn thing all the movement conservatives are saying. If Republicans wanted "fresh air", they should look to somebody like Huckabee or Paul.

 

[gkryhewy]

Where drilling is going to help is in the economy. It'll take more than just the ANWR for that, hopefully there are sites that are more central so that people don't have to migrate up north. It'll create jobs and increase cash flow so that paying such high prices for gas is do-able. Where I'm from, kids graduating from high school can go and work on the rigs starting at over $20/hr. Hell, 7-11 pays like $14 starting wage.

Again, the Canada analogy is bogus. There aren't nearly the resources ANYWHERE being discussed; direct economic impact in terms of oil jobs would be essentially zero. There are no tar sands here.

 

[Thunder Monkey]

You guys are freaking out over something that did little to help McCain's campaign. Yeah Republicans can be nasty and their hypocrites... this isn't helping their chances.

We should be celebrating!

Don't worry man.

I'm happy enough to see McCain falter and lose.

Just get sick and tired of this high and mighty holier then thou crap spouted off by that bunch.

 

[mckmas8808]

Heh, Ben Stein just won a fair amount of respect in my eyes.

Man fuck Ben Stein. He called Obama an angry black man and said people wouldn't vote for him.

http://www.newshounds.us/2008/08/30fox_says_it_first_barack_obama_is_an_angry_black_man.php

 

[theBishop]

It's amusing how Palin has been described as a "breath of fresh air" when all she does is say the same damn thing all the other people are saying. If Republicans wanted "fresh air", they should look to somebody like Huckabee or Paul.

Crazy with a side of tits is a refreshing change.

Last night, Palin proved women can be just as deranged as men. The glass ceiling is officially broken.

 

[HylianTom]

Their positions are based more on opinion and theory (you know, kind of like how in theory, Libertarianism is AWESOME!). Kind of like how trickle down economics works...in theory. If you can only back up your statements with opinion and theory (not in the scientific definition of theory as in "Theory of Gravity" and "Theory of Evolution"), then you can't sway them because you cannot disprove their theory (even if their model fails over and over and over again).

The model is everything; it makes so much logical sense that any evidence to the contrary is discarded as not complete enough or not good enough. In theory, a "conservative" government should have cut back on spending. "Hey, but Bush...". Nope, NOT CONSERVATIVE ENOUGH BITCHES blah blah blah Democratic majority! blah blah :lol

Of course, this is ignoring the fact that the so called "majority" is razor thin and it's only been in place for 1.5 of the last 8 years of Bush and Co.

Again, you can't reason with them. Best to just skip over their posts.

Pretty good summation of why I usually don't bother.

 

[Bulla564]

YOU KNOW WHAT IS FUNNY?!?!?!

Closing a simple market loophole will cause oil prices to drop by half. Of course, the media, republicans, and oil companies do not want to address this, because the more desperate the American people become, the more gullible they are, and better the chances to get even more reserves.

It's not as if oil companies are tapped at 100% production. It's not as if oil companies don't have a shit ton of land to drill. With the US consuming 25% of the world's oil, it's not as if drilling 3% of the supply will EVER make us independent (nor get us remotely close).

FUCK Bush and McCain saying that we need a "psychological" solution to the problem of oil speculators.

Only in the land of American Idol and Britney Spears, can people be so gullible for this drill, baby drill crap.

 

[Karma Kramer]

http://www.tvweek.com/news/2008/09/palin_beats_hillary_biden_in_b.php

Not surprising considering all the media attention she's received. Can't wait to see polls in the next few days

Damn... polls will be fucking insane in a few days.

 

[scorcho]

so far Gallup isn't showing any movement after Tuesday's RNC speeches.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/110032/Gallup-Daily-Dent-Obama-Lead-Far.aspx

 

[pxleyes]

It's amusing how Palin has been described as a "breath of fresh air" when all she does is say the same damn thing all the movement conservatives are saying. If Republicans wanted "fresh air", they should look to somebody like Huckabee or Paul.

It's simply code words for "look pretty" and "a new face."