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[NLB2]

1. the EIA has estimated it will only negatively impact the cost of oil by tenths of a cent, which will be grossly mitigated by the rise in consumption/demand from both China and India.
2. that we're in a global market and don't have enough recoverable oil along our coasts really makes your argument stupid. in the abstract it all sounds nice but it doesn't and won't play out in the real world like the fantasy you're stating.

I'd like to see the EIA estimate, especially considering what just talking about drilling offshore has done to oil futures prices.

Chinese and Indian demand is going to increase regardless of whether domestic drilling is increased.

No one, myself included, thinks domestic drilling is going to get rid of the need for imported oil. The idea is that it will increase domestic production, help the economy, help prepare the US for emergency situations, and make us less dependent on totalitarian regimes like Saudi Arabia for our energy needs, while not getting in the way of R&D for more fuel efficient technology and alternate sources of energy. Its a win-win situation and the only reason not to do it that makes any kind of sense is because of environmental concerns.

 

[speculawyer]

Agreed.. Until Huckabee went into Palin Defense Force Mode and the subsequent "Pointless wars give us school desks" rant I would have said he had the best speech of the convention.

Someone explain this to me. Huckabee is a preacher. One of the Ten commandments is 'though shalt not bear false witness'. Yet he spewd the whopper that "Palin got more votes to become Wasilla mayor than Biden got to be president." (Untrue, by more than a order of magnitude.)

A preacher outright lied to 300 million people . . . is he going to hell now?

 

[Kusagari]

But included Thompson's and Lieberman's speeches. I'm going to put a side-by-side together of the two tracking polls as they moved day by day through both conventions. After Michelle Obama's speech, IIRC, Obama got a bump when the day after hit the trackers. No bump from the first two days of the GOP convention.

Tomorrow is going to be really interesting.

It would be hilarious if McCain actually went DOWN after last night :lol

 

[Gaborn]

Just like Iraq amirite?

We start drilling and for all we know speculators will start figuring the use of this gas into the prices. "We are running out!" And costs will skyrocket.

Iraq is a sovereign nation we should have never gone into in the first place, we should have had no expectation they'd give us oil unless we wanted to truly take over their government.

 

[Tamanon]

Someone explain this to me. Huckabee is a preacher. One of the Ten commandments is 'though shalt not bear false witness'. Yet he spewd the whopper that "Palin got more votes to become Wasilla mayor than Biden got to be president." (Untrue, by more than a order of magnitude.)

A preacher outright lied to 300 million people . . . is he going to hell now?

It's OK, he lied about a Catholic.

 

[Cooter]

It certainly can be mean you are irrational.

Why vote McCain on economic issues. The guy has admitted he knows nothing about economics. His big advisor on economics was Phil Gramm . . . the guy who wrote some of the laws that created the housing disaster. McCain's economic policies have basically been to continue the Bush economic policies that have proven to have failed spectacularly.

So, can you please explain why you vote McCain on economic issues? I just don't see the rationality in it.

I don't suscribe to the theory that Bush's policies have been an economic failure. The president has little to do with an economy. I believe the tax cuts in 2001 saved us from a recession and all I want my president to do is keep taxes low and stay out of the way. That IMO is sound economic policy. When you start trying to regulate and tax it is a burden on any economy. How can higher taxes on the people creating the jobs be a good thing? If you take capital out of the market the economy will shrink. It's that simlpe. I would rather give it all the chance we can to grow.

 

[Stoney Mason]

Oh, and if all ye GAFers are so outraged and motivated, volunteer for the campaign. This is the last month to register voters and there are some tight races in states where Obama stands a slim margin of winning, but you can help try to win some of those down ticket seats. *cough* Rick Noriega *cough*

I'll do more good for the fight on the internetz!

 

[tanod]

Good lord, GAF. I step out for half a day and 40 some odd pages get tacked on to this thread.

Cooter: I'd be inclined to agree, but lawblob perhaps said it best.

Oh, and if all ye GAFers are so outraged and motivated, volunteer for the campaign. This is the last month to register voters and there are some tight races in states where Obama stands a slim margin of winning, but you can help try to win some of those down ticket seats. *cough* Rick Noriega *cough*

If you read part of the 40 pages, you'd also see that we're about $2500 poorer.

 

[The Blue Jihad]

That wouldn't be prudent... at this juncture.

And quite simply, you're naahhtgunnnadoooait!

God, I love that skit. One of Dana Carvey's best.

 

[Battlezone]

Community Organizers demand an apology from Palin (good luck with THAT): http://organizersfightback.wordpress.com/

“Community organizers work in neighborhoods that have been hit hardest by the failing economy,” said John Raskin, founder of Community Organizers of America and a community organizer on the West Side of Manhattan. “The last thing we need is for Republican officials to mock us on television when we’re trying to rebuild the neighborhoods they have destroyed. Maybe if everyone had more houses than they can count, we wouldn’t need community organizers. But I work with people who are getting evicted from their only home. If John McCain and the Republicans understood that, maybe they wouldn’t be so quick to make fun of community organizers like me.”

Also, Roger Simon points out why the media should apologize to Sarah Palin.

 

[Tamanon]

I'll do more good for the fight on the internetz!

Hell, we know that the McCain camp has become irrational and wrong just by the fact that the past week or so lure you back to the PoliGAF thread.:lol

 

[Arde5643]

Cnn livestream has the Michelle Obama campaign event on New Mexico.

 

[gcubed]

http://www.tvweek.com/news/2008/09/palin_beats_hillary_biden_in_b.php

Not surprising considering all the media attention she's received. Can't wait to see polls in the next few days

that actually, to me, is surprising, i thought she'd get skyrocket numbers because of all of the scandal/turmoil coverage. She just beat out Clinton. I wonder what McCain will get tonight against the NFL... and it will undoubtedly be worse then Palin, irregardless of the content, she did a damn fine job on delivery.

And good god people, can some take a chill pill. Gaborn and JayDubya, while you may not agree wtih them, actually discuss topics respectably with proper information. Lumping them with Slender is even painful to me.

 

[gkryhewy]

I'd like to see the EIA estimate, especially considering what just talking about drilling offshore has done to oil futures prices.

We are going in circles, and so I'm going to bail, but although I agree with this partially (and posted such), this is NOT a causal relationship. You are implying that republican DRILL HERE DRILL NOW bullshit has reduced GLOBAL oil prices by $40 per barrel?

Really?

You are on another planet.

Prices are down because of expectations of a global economic slowdown, and because of at least a temporary unwinding of a bubble.

 

[speculawyer]

I don't suscribe to the theory that Bush's policies have been an economic failure. The president has little to do with an economy.

See . .. you are irrational. After providing some evidence against McCain's policies, you instantly flipped and say that the 'president has little to do with an economy' . . . but you 2 minutes ago said you were voting for McCain for 'economic reasons'. :lol :lol

How can higher taxes on the people creating the jobs be a good thing?

1) You DEDUCT salaries from your revenue. Thus when people are hired, A COMPANY PAYS LESS TAXES. If anything, having higher taxes could be viewed to make it more likely for people to hire workers since they will pay less taxes. The will instead make their money from the increased value of the company and you pay less tax on capital gains anyway. It is a relatively simple principle that most conservatives can't seem to understand.
2) Do you think having taxes so low that we have MASSIVE DEFICITS is good for the economy? I don't. It causes currency devaluation and credit crunches.

If you take capital out of the market the economy will shrink. It's that simlpe. I would rather give it all the chance we can to grow.

And that is exactly what the GOP does by running massive government deficits.

Seriously . . . GOP economics has been fail. People are just trying to rationalize their own greed, but it doesn't work.

 

[Gaborn]

Actually a 1-2% change in product will have very little effect on price.

Price has more to do with refinement than anything else... or lack of available refineries...

So would you support opening up more refineries in the US? Since we haven't opened a new one in about 30 years?

 

[VanMardigan]

No bump from the first two days of the GOP convention.

Well it did slightly improve after day one, and still better than pre-convention weekend, unless I'm reading that wrong.

 

[Thunder Monkey]

Iraq is a sovereign nation we should have never gone into in the first place, we should have had no expectation they'd give us oil unless we wanted to truly take over their government.

I know man.:lol

I was just being a bitch.

 

[TheGrayGhost]

That's all I'm saying. I'll vote for McCan mostly because of economic issues but that doesn't mean I'm irrational or evil.

But you are being irrational. Do you even know what a McCain administration would do to the economy?

 

[polyh3dron]

ODF to the rescue. I never challenged his credentials, read my posts.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12665998&postcount=12317
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12666048&postcount=12324
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12665873&postcount=12291
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12665425&postcount=12220
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12665122&postcount=12165
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12662590&postcount=11804
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12662483&postcount=11770
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12659935&postcount=10721

 

[PhoenixDark]

Another focus group didn't like Palin's speech

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/09/04/female-clinton-supporters_n_123794.html

When prompted to respond to Palin's steadfast opposition to abortion -- even in cases of rape or incest -- no woman in either group stepped forward to defend the Alaskan Republican. "I don't dig that," said one married woman, matter of factly.

.

lol

 

[The Blue Jihad]

So he has been hiding the secret on how to capture Osama for the last 16 years? What kind of asshole is this McCain guy? :lol

John McCain is actually Kevin Trudeau?

 

[Arde5643]

Community Organizers demand an apology from Palin (good luck with THAT): http://organizersfightback.wordpress.com/



Also, Roger Simon points out why the media should apologize to Sarah Palin.

Good stuffs, dude.

 

[gcubed]

So would you support opening up more refineries in the US? Since we haven't opened a new one in about 30 years?

YES. YES YES YES YES... and damn it build some new clear power plants while your at it.

 

[Byakuya769]

I'm pretty sure we're acknowledging this.

The call for domestic drilling is two parts:
1. It will lower oil costs by increasing production.
2. In case of an emergency, such as a war with major oil producing power, OPEC embargo, or a blockade of the Straights of Hormuz, American domestic production will be increased and can then be forced via high export tariffs, etc. into the domestic economy.

The production dent would virtually be negligible, and production will not take place after a finger snap.

2. That's what the strategic reserve is for. Though a war that would put such a strain on our ability to import oil would hurt the world market, and would likely mean that many other nations are being cut off from the oil stream... how likely is that?

If you want to spin hypotheticals, how about we focus power production on renewable sources and then such an action would not even make us flinch. No need for free-market no-no's such as high export tariffs...

 

[Mahadev]

I'd like to see the EIA estimate, especially considering what just talking about drilling offshore has done to oil futures prices.

Chinese and Indian demand is going to increase regardless of whether domestic drilling is increased.

No one, myself included, thinks domestic drilling is going to get rid of the need for imported oil. The idea is that it will increase domestic production, help the economy, help prepare the US for emergency situations, and make us less dependent on totalitarian regimes like Saudi Arabia for our energy needs, while not getting in the way of R&D for more fuel efficient technology and alternate sources of energy. Its a win-win situation and the only reason not to do it that makes any kind of sense is because of environmental concerns.

This is me repeating myself to this guy for the fourth time:

Your utopian scenario about drilling helping USA on emergency situations is wrong. You don't know anything about how the market works.

Also the decrease will be marginal because the recoverable oil form drilling is marginal.

 

[Cooter]

See . .. you are irrational. After providing some evidence against McCain's policies, you instantly flipped and say that the 'president has little to do with an economy' . . . but you 2 minutes ago said you were voting for McCain for 'economic reasons'.

What are you talking about? My reason is that he will be more hands off and that is a good thing. Was I not clear?

 

[Stoney Mason]

Hell, we know that the McCain camp has become irrational and wrong just by the fact that the past week or so lure you back to the PoliGAF thread.:lol

The Dem Convention and speeches got me to let a lot of the old anger go not that I feel any differently about how certain things went down in the primaries.

When the close of one of the most embarrasing 8 years of presidency is so potentially close it's hard not to be motivated and want to discuss.

 

[scorcho]

I'd like to see the EIA estimate, especially considering what just talking about drilling offshore has done to oil futures prices.

you could, you know, look a few posts up -

http://www.eia.doe.gov/oiaf/aeo/otheranalysis/ongr.html
http://www.eia.doe.gov/pub/oil_gas/...ational_wildlife_refuge/html/execsummary.html

as to the rest of the above, you're right - House Republicans talking about drilling oil in an empty chamber in front of dead cameras affected the prices. it could have nothing to do with a global slowdown in production and consumption. nope. it's talking. that doesn't sound like rational actors to me.

and last - considering the amount of oil available, there's also a huge contradiction in stating both that the oil will be produced for the global market and also that the production will somehow insulate us from the geopolitics of the ME.

 

[VanMardigan]

It's OK, he lied about a Catholic.

I don't think that was meant to be a factual statement, more like making fun of Biden's short run. But to answer speculawyers's question, if he knowingly lied he can ask for forgiveness and he's good to go.

 

[Gaborn]

YES. YES YES YES YES... and damn it build some new clear power plants while your at it.

I agree, doing a bit of EVERYTHING (and yes I include drilling even if you don't) from refineries, nuclear, wind, solar, etc

 

[Arde5643]

I know man.:lol

I was just being a bitch.

SEXISSMSMSMSM!!!1!!

 

[Thunder Monkey]

that actually, to me, is surprising, i thought she'd get skyrocket numbers because of all of the scandal/turmoil coverage. She just beat out Clinton. I wonder what McCain will get tonight against the NFL... and it will undoubtedly be worse then Palin, irregardless of the content, she did a damn fine job on delivery.

And good god people, can some take a chill pill. Gaborn and JayDubya, while you may not agree wtih them, actually discuss topics respectably with proper information. Lumping them with Slender is even painful to me.

I agree completely.

There is a huge difference between them. I don't want to punch either of them for one. They might be crazy, but they're my kind of crazy.

 

[Tamanon]

you could, you know, look a few posts up -

http://www.eia.doe.gov/oiaf/aeo/otheranalysis/ongr.html
http://www.eia.doe.gov/pub/oil_gas/...ational_wildlife_refuge/html/execsummary.html

as to the rest, you're right - House Republicans talking about drilling oil in an empty chamber in front of dead cameras affected the prices. it could have nothing to do with a global slowdown in production and consumption. nope. it's talking. that doesn't sound like rational actors to me.

Hell if talking about how to fix oil prices lowered it, one would think that it would be only ten bucks a barrel now, because we've been talking about it for years.:lol

 

[worldrunover]

.

lol

I thought Stewart had the best line about the abortion issue when he nailed it to Gingrich's forehead.

 

[Byakuya769]

ODF to the rescue. I never challenged his credentials, read my posts.

Oooo, my fault.. I thought you mentioned her job as a mayor and compared it to his job being a community organizer, as if before his position as a us senator that was all he did.


WAIT, that's exactly what you fucking did.

 

[CharlieDigital]

Someone explain this to me. Huckabee is a preacher. One of the Ten commandments is 'though shalt not bear false witness'. Yet he spewd the whopper that "Palin got more votes to become Wasilla mayor than Biden got to be president." (Untrue, by more than a order of magnitude.)

A preacher outright lied to 300 million people . . . is he going to hell now?

You obviously don't know how religion works. He can lie all he wants as long as he repents and accepts the Lord Jesus Christ as his savior. I mean, even sinners can be given passage to Heaven on their death beds if they accept Christ as their savior before their last breath.

That's why CHRISTIANITY IS SO AWESOME!

 

[Gaborn]

I agree completely.

There is a huge difference between them. I don't want to punch either of them for one. They might be crazy, but they're my kind of crazy.

Your tag makes me agree that you're my kind of crazy :lol

 

[NLB2]

The production dent would virtually be negligible, and production will not take place after a finger snap.

2. That's what the strategic reserve is for. Though a war that would put such a strain on our ability to import oil would hurt the world market, and would likely mean that many other nations are being cut off from the oil stream... how likely is that?

If you want to spin hypotheticals, how about we focus power production on renewable sources and then such an action would not even make us flinch. No need for free-market no-no's such as high export tariffs...

If oil companies want to drill in ANWR or elsewhere, how does this prevent us from focusing on renewable energy at the same time?

Until you can answer this question, your only reason not to support increased drilling is the environment.

 

[Tamanon]

I thought Stewart had the best line about the abortion issue when he nailed it to Gingrich's forehead.

"Sarah Palin is on record as saying she would veto abortions for women even in the event of being raped, so what she, is in essence saying

Respect my family's ability to make this decision, and elect me so that I can keep your family from having the same opportunity"

Yup, was surprising, Stewart was kinda on fire, I think the whole thing is starting to anger him.:lol

 

[ZealousD]

Cindy McCain's full outfit at the RNC has an estimated cost around $300,000

http://www.vanityfair.com/online/politics/2008/09/cindy-mccains-300000-outfit.html

Oscar de la Renta dress: $3,000
Chanel J12 White Ceramic Watch: $4,500
Three-carat diamond earrings: $280,000
Four-strand pearl necklace: $11,000–$25,000
Shoes, designer unknown: $600
Total: Between $299,100 and $313,100

Seems the bulk of the cost comes from her diamond earrings.

The rocks on her ears cost as much as an average home in California.

 

[VanMardigan]

You obviously don't know how religion works. He can lie all he wants as long as he repents and accepts the Lord Jesus Christ as his savior. I mean, even sinners can be given passage to Heaven on their death beds if they accept Christ as their savior before their last breath.

That's why CHRISTIANITY IS SO AWESOME!

Agreed. Despite the sarcasm.

 

[Tamanon]

Cindy McCain's full outfit at the RNC has an estimated cost around $300,000

http://www.vanityfair.com/online/politics/2008/09/cindy-mccains-300000-outfit.html

Oscar de la Renta dress: $3,000
Chanel J12 White Ceramic Watch: $4,500
Three-carat diamond earrings: $280,000
Four-strand pearl necklace: $11,000–$25,000
Shoes, designer unknown: $600
Total: Between $299,100 and $313,100

Seems the bulk of the cost comes from her diamond earrings.

The rocks on her ear cost as much as an average home in California.

*spittake*

That thing with the neck levees cost three thousand? And Jesus at those earrings.

 

[Gaborn]

If oil companies want to drill in ANWR or elsewhere, how does this prevent us from focusing on renewable energy at the same time?

Until you can answer this question, your only reason not to support increased drilling is the environment.

Excellent point, people want this issue to be binary, drill for oil or a comprehensive policy of alternative fuel. In reality you can do both.

 

[Freshmaker]

No one, myself included, thinks domestic drilling is going to get rid of the need for imported oil. The idea is that it will increase domestic production, help the economy, help prepare the US for emergency situations, and make us less dependent on totalitarian regimes like Saudi Arabia for our energy needs, while not getting in the way of R&D for more fuel efficient technology and alternate sources of energy. Its a win-win situation and the only reason not to do it that makes any kind of sense is because of environmental concerns.

Even though the US production levels will never reach that kinda of magic output even if we drill everywhere with no regard to the environment?

 

[polyh3dron]

What are you talking about? My reason is that he will be more hands off and that is a good thing. Was I not clear?

Yeah, giving huge tax breaks to big oil and rich people while giving smaller tax breaks to the middle class than Obama does is really hands off.

 

[~Devil Trigger~]

I don't suscribe to the theory that Bush's policies have been an economic failure. The president has little to do with an economy. I believe the tax cuts in 2001 saved us from a recession and all I want my president to do is keep taxes low and stay out of the way. That IMO is sound economic policy. When you start trying to regulate and tax it is a burden on any economy. How can higher taxes on the people creating the jobs be a good thing? If you take capital out of the market the economy will shrink. It's that simlpe. I would rather give it all the chance we can to grow.

those tax cuts put us where we are, not everything happens instantly. Rep. had 8 years of control right now(7 years of control of the legislative branch), spending is not the problem, but what you spent it on. tax cuts in which the bulk of it went to the top, the little money people got did'nt do anything for the economy, hell the last taxcut we got proved that Again.

 

[gkryhewy]

If oil companies want to drill in ANWR or elsewhere, how does this prevent us from focusing on renewable energy at the same time?

Until you can answer this question, your only reason not to support increased drilling is the environment.

I think ANWR should be off limits because of the environmental impacts. For the thousandth time, I think most people here are okay with the idea of offshore drilling as part of a broad energy package.

You, and the angry republicans last night, are being disingenuous in your pretense that this is still a matter of debate. OBAMA AGREES WITH YOU.

 

[speculawyer]

What are you talking about? My reason is that he will be more hands off and that is a good thing. Was I not clear?

No, you were not clear. Saying 'little to do with the economy' implies the could do whatever they wanted and it would not matter. That is not what you meant. Anyway, look up to my edited post and see why the policies you support have failed and will continue to fail.

 

[TheGrayGhost]

You obviously don't know how religion works. He can lie all he wants as long as he repents and accepts the Lord Jesus Christ as his savior. I mean, even sinners can be given passage to Heaven on their death beds if they accept Christ as their savior before their last breath.

That's why CHRISTIANITY IS SO AWESOME!

It'd be nice if that was the way it worked. But it doesn't. To merely renounce your wrong-doings is not enough. Not nearly enough. And accepting Jesus Christ as a path to the good life, to the "kingdom of Heaven within," is contingent upon many, many life-style changes. Religion is far more nuanced than even many practioneers think. This is why the Rublican party as the party of "Christian values" is such total bullshit, and, I think, one of the primary reasons there are so many misconceptions surrounding Christianity and religion in general.