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[FyreWulff]

It is imperative that Democracy is done, you may say the cost this time is too high, until the system is flipped and your candidate loses. Trump will likely be awful but if he is not elected then I really fear for America

Amusingly, all 4 times this has happened, it's let a Republican steal the election from a Democrat.

It's literally never been "when it happens to your candidate", because the Democrats have literally never won an election this way. Only Republicans have.

 

[DragonSworne]

It is imperative that Democracy is done, you may say the cost this time is too high, until the system is flipped and your candidate loses. Trump will likely be awful but if he is not elected then I really fear for America

It will be the Democrats fault for Republicans plundering the country into civil war?

Okay.

 

[numble]

The analogy is a clear generalization, and you're missing the overall point. If you go by the popular vote, and Hamilton outlined this, the will of the rural man will be shunned and forgotten.

What analogy? A generalization is not a good thing.

Where does Hamilton outline this about the electoral college? How does a state like Nebraska allowing electoral votes to be independently selected go against the explanation for the electoral college in the Federalist Papers, which specifically said that electors should be independently selected?

You have ignored all my other points for some reason.

 

[CoffeeJanitor]

I wish people would stop giving this fantasy attention. This isn't what we should be focusing on, we need to focus on ways to make Trump's presidency a living hell for him.

.

Also he won

 

[WhateverItTakes]

If people genuinely, genuinely believed he was a fascist wouldnt we see much more protest than we currently do?

Honestly don't know. It does make you wonder what line needs to be crossed by a first-world leader to make a population unite to oust them. The whole South Korea cult thing could be a barometer I guess?

EDIT: Obviously this isn't close to causing a revolution, since so many people voted Trump.

 

[theCalamity]

.

Also he won

He technically won't win until Wednesday when the electors vote. That is the real election.

 

[teruterubozu]

lol. It's nice to dream with 5 days left. And even in this dream scenario we're only half way. Maybe the other half will have a shitty weekend? lol.

 

[Mr Cola]

Honestly don't know. It does make you wonder what line needs to be crossed by a first-world leader to make a population unite to oust them. The whole South Korea cult thing could be a barometer I guess?

EDIT: Obviously this isn't close to causing a revolution, since so many people voted Trump.

Im just curious, was listening to Dan Carlins podcast about what red lines trump would need to cross and how some words get thrown out but if they meant what they were supposed to people would be revolting already. Words like fascist, racist, sexist, misogynist, misandry are being thrown around so willy nilly these days its hard to know exactly how serious are when people use them.

 

[Goro Majima]

First the recount and now this.

There's going to be some really disappointed and grieving people that are putting their hopes into stuff like this. I just don't see any other outcome than Trump being sworn in on January 20th.

 

[Syriel]

Look pal, Trump won. I don't need to know anything before I say anything and it don't matter if what I said was true or not.

Needless to say, stealing the election through force would be a disaster.

Facts:

Trump lost the popular vote.
Trump is predicted to win the Electoral College vote.
The Electoral College vote has not yet occurred.

How, exactly, would one "steal" a vote "through force" here?

Are you claiming a conspiracy that is threatening the lives of electors if they don't vote in a certain way? If so, you should be reporting that to the authorities, not posting on a message board.

 

[manakel]

Honestly don't know. It does make you wonder what line needs to be crossed by a first-world leader to make a population unite to oust them. The whole South Korea cult thing could be a barometer I guess?

EDIT: Obviously this isn't close to causing a revolution, since so many people voted Trump.

I was just thinking about this last night. At what point do the American people and various government agencies start holding him accountable for the things that he says and does? We've received multiple reports accusing him of things or saying he shouldn't have conflicts of interest, yet here we are. It's intriguing that if any other person in any other profession were to:
-say the things that he says
-tweet the things that he tweets
-have various conflicts of interests
-have absolutely no experience in that related field

...they would be fired in an instant. Yet, for arguably the most important profession in the country, he gets a free pass? Why is that?

 

[neorej]

Dead letter, no precedent on this scale, and it doesn't align with the electoral expectations. Electors are supposed to vote based on their state results. They barely register as people.

1824, Andrew Jackson won the popular and electoral vote. The EC elected John Quincy Adams as president.

There's your precedent, not that one is needed to uphold a constitutional law.

 

[Jarmel]

This appeal to "The Founders' Wisdom" is already so tired. Why privilege what a couple dudes intended their system to be over the thousands and thousands of people who rejected that vision in the hundreds of years since?

Because it's a smart system? It allows a failsafe in case the voters do something amazingly stupid.

 

[WhateverItTakes]

Im just curious, was listening to Dan Carlins podcast about what red lines trump would need to cross and how some words get thrown out but if they meant what they were supposed to people would be revolting already. Words like fascist, racist, sexist, misogynist, misandry are being thrown around so willy nilly these days its hard to know exactly how serious are when people use them.

I was just thinking about this last night. At what point do the American people and various government agencies start holding him accountable for the things that he says and does? We've received multiple reports accusing him of things or saying he shouldn't have conflicts of interest, yet here we are. It's intriguing that if any other person in any other profession were to:
-say the things that he says
-tweet the things that he tweets
-have various conflicts of interests
-have absolutely no experience in that related field

...they would be fired in an instant. Yet, for arguably the most important profession in the country, he gets a free pass? Why is that?

Part of the whole Teflon Don thing isn't it? We started treating him as a joke so it didn't matter what he said. And, ironically, that stuck, so the rest slips off. I think it proves for politicians going forward that there's a sizeable portion of the electorate that either doesn't really have standards for their officials, or actively loves them for being so transparently awful. Shit's weird.

Since Trump owns all branches of government when he gets in he's either gonna have to
A) Do something that really really pisses off the Republican base including the ones fired up by him so the RNC feel it's safer to get him out of here.
Or
B) He does some absolutely appalling international diplomacy and foreign countries actively say 'We're not gonna work with you while this guy is president'.

Doubt either of those are happening so yeah. January 20th is gonna be the start of a long strange period in human history.

 

[bionic77]

First the recount and now this.

There's going to be some really disappointed and grieving people that are putting their hopes into stuff like this. I just don't see any other outcome than Trump being sworn in on January 20th.

Remember wienke, hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things, and no good thing ever dies.

 

[diablos991]

Wishful thinking.
I doubt we will see double digits on the flips.

 

[Nibiru]

Doesn't 30 need to flip before he doesn't get 270? I really would be hopeful if this happens, Congress wouldn't go with Trump. Sure, it'll be another Republican. But how about a sane one?

Not gonna happen. Dumping Trump would ensure that they lose Congress in 2018 as the Trump vote which retained congress for them would bail next election. Not to mention conservatives love Trump's cabinet picks despite how much Dems call them terrible(Rex being only exception.) As far as most Republicans are concerned Trump is doing fine.

 

[iRAWRasaurus]

do it I say.

 

[Vox]

Because it's a smart system? It allows a failsafe in case the voters do something amazingly stupid.

I agree that it's a smart system. Are you going to continue to say it's a smart system if Trump wins?

 

[Exile20]

I wish people would stop giving this fantasy attention. This isn't what we should be focusing on, we need to focus on ways to make Trump's presidency a living hell for him.

The problem with that plan is that we would be living in hell too because he would still be president. Whether you like it or not he affects our lives.

 

[Neuromancer]

It is imperative that Democracy is done, you may say the cost this time is too high, until the system is flipped and your candidate loses. Trump will likely be awful but if he is not elected then I really fear for America

Some may argue that the very purpose of the Electoral College is to intervene in cases like this.

 

[NimbusD]

It is imperative that Democracy is done, you may say the cost this time is too high, until the system is flipped and your candidate loses. Trump will likely be awful but if he is not elected then I really fear for America

Electors aren't democracy. With them existing it's impossible that "democracy is done". So why not have them actually carry out their function. They're broken either way.

 

[Jarmel]

I agree that it's a smart system. Are you going to continue to say it's a smart system if Trump wins?

?

The electoral college as designed shouldn't allow Trump into office. However the electors are going to back off and not do what they should be doing. It's a smart system in theory but nobody is willing to push the nuke button.

 

[3rdman]

On one side, this is the point of the EC. On the other side, this is the complete undermining of our government system. I don't think this would have ever been done before

How could it be an "undermining of our government system" if the ability to do this a part of our government in the first place? Not to mention the fact that he lost the popular vote...by a lot.

By the way, this has been done before...I think 3 times before in our history.

Doesn't matter though, this is just fantasy...it'll never happen.

 

[The Artisan]

I wish people would stop giving this fantasy attention. This isn't what we should be focusing on, we need to focus on ways to make Trump's presidency a living hell for him.

well what the fuck would that do to help the american people?

 

[FyreWulff]

On one side, this is the point of the EC. On the other side, this is the complete undermining of our government system. I don't think this would have ever been done before

It already has. Jackson won both the PV and the EC in 1824 but the Presidency was given to John Quincy Adams.

 

[Easy_D]

I wish people would stop giving this fantasy attention. This isn't what we should be focusing on, we need to focus on ways to make Trump's presidency a living hell for him.

His biggest hell would be getting snubbed of the presidency. Make it happen

 

[Neuromancer]

Yeah! Trump won by the rules of the Electoral College. We shouldn't use the Electoral College rules to prevent him from being president. We have to work through the system, by not using the system, so that we can win the next round using this system.

YEAH!

 

[USC-fan]

Please you people won't do shit except riot. You're not going to shoot chips or military personnel, unless…all that talk about Blue Lives Matter and love our vets was a bunch of empty rhetoric

Yeah it's possible that the police would try to stop them.

But it more likely they wouldn't stop a bunch of white people. Let's be real here trump on the police side 100%. They have to "talk" it out and the government would be shut down for months at least.


Have to say it funny how if you don't go with these terrible batshit crazy ideas you are now with those people. People have really lost their minds over trump.

 

[Epsilon-delta]

Remember wienke, hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things, and no good thing ever dies.

Great movie, one of my favorites.

 

[theCalamity]

Guys, using the system undermines the system. We have to keep the system strong by not using the system while using the system.

 

[Slime]

Tales from my ass: electoral edition

 

[User Name Here]

It is imperative that Democracy is done, you may say the cost this time is too high, until the system is flipped and your candidate loses. Trump will likely be awful but if he is not elected then I really fear for America

There is nothing to fear. If Trump ended up not winning, nothing major other than complaining would happen.

Lessig provided no evidence to back up his claim, but says his group has heard from 20 Republicans open to breaking with Trump.

I wouldn't provide any evidence either since Trump and the rest of the Legion of America's Doom would go after them.

 

[User Name Here]

Why can't we delete our own post?

 

[HStallion]

Maybe its me just being cynical by nature and 2016 reinforcing that stance tenfold with all the BS that has gone down this year but I expect nothing to come of this but a lot of hot air.

 

[Cymbal Head]

Live from Lessig's command room:

Edit: to be serious about this, the only remote possibility I can see is faithless electors causing the election to be thrown to congress, in which case we'll get some other Republican president, which means things like repealing Obamacare, privatizing Social Security, and appointing conservatives to SCOTUS are still very much on the menu, but with a cabinet full of political hacks instead of billionaires. Reactionary movements will still be empowered, but maybe a little less than they would otherwise. There is no outcome here in which we are not fucked. I mean, John Kasich, one of the "good ones," just signed a new abortion ban this week.

 

[minor effort]

If nothing else, getting twenty Republican electors to break away from Trump provides a reminder that Trump's mandate is paper thin. That's on top of his sizable popular vote loss.

People are going to get demoralized at many points throughout the next four years, and people who oppose the Trump administration going to need all the reminders at their disposal that Trump only narrowly won this election. You didn't get steamrolled, this was not a "blowout" or "landslide" election, so stand up.

That's why I'm interested in following these developments even if Trump is inaugurated as scheduled on January 20.

 

[Commanche Raisin Toast]

I'm shocked by how quickly people are ready to drop their pants and bend over, instead of considering there may be a way to not have to pull them down at all. Like, wow.

The majority of Americans did not want Trump and voted as such. Electors are in their rights to do this. How is it even a question as to whether we should at least try?

Crazypills.gif

 

[yanipheonu]

I'm not really investing the flip fantasy, though if this forces people to pay attention to how screwed up the electoral college can be, that might be some good.

"Hope is a mistake. If you can fix what's broken, you'll go insane."

Hope... is irrational.

 

[Easy_D]

I'm shocked by how quickly people are ready to drop their pants and bend over, instead of considering there may be a way to not have to pull them down at all. Like, wow.

The majority of Americans did not want Trump and voted as such. Electors are in their rights to do this. How is it even a question as to whether we should at least try?

Crazypills.gif

Yeah I've noticed a general tone of defeatism from Americans, which is so stupid, you had 4 good-ish years and now something bad happens and it's all:

"We're doomed" "Humanity had a good run" etc. Like, the fuck, people? I know it's not my place to say so, given that I'm not a US citizen, but geez. There are PLENTY of people to go around to protest stupid shit, do it, he might not be your president, but you're still the people.

 

[orthodoxy1095]

If this happens, wouldn't Congress just step in anyways?

 

[Wilsongt]

I'm shocked by how quickly people are ready to drop their pants and bend over, instead of considering there may be a way to not have to pull them down at all. Like, wow.

The majority of Americans did not want Trump and voted as such. Electors are in their rights to do this. How is it even a question as to whether we should at least try?

Crazypills.gif

More like being realistic. These pipe dreams of recounts and faithless electors are just that: Dreams. Trump is the 45th president. Democrats need to pull up their bootstraps, put down their organic, soy, two pumps suger-free pumpkin spice lattes, and start a grassroots movement to retake the Senate, and state houses in 2018.

 

[minor effort]

More like being realistic. These pipe dreams of recounts and faithless electors are just that: Dreams. Trump is the 45th president. Democrats need to pull up their bootstraps, put down their organic, soy, two pumps suger-free pumpkin spice lattes, and start a grassroots movement to retake the Senate, and state houses in 2018.

To be fair, this has only five remaining days of being an ongoing concern. Either something comes of it or it doesn't. I think most people following this are still simultaneously preparing for the reality that Trump will be president, but that doesn't mean people can't also follow this until it reaches its conclusion. People aren't going to be pinning their hopes on this in 2018 because it'll be a settled issue.

 

[jstripes]

I was just thinking about this last night. At what point do the American people and various government agencies start holding him accountable for the things that he says and does? We've received multiple reports accusing him of things or saying he shouldn't have conflicts of interest, yet here we are. It's intriguing that if any other person in any other profession were to:
-say the things that he says
-tweet the things that he tweets
-have various conflicts of interests
-have absolutely no experience in that related field

...they would be fired in an instant. Yet, for arguably the most important profession in the country, he gets a free pass? Why is that?

 

[MIMIC]

The Republicans handed Trump the keys to the nomination, even though they didn't have to. And they're going to hand Trump the keys to the Presidency.....even though they don't have to. Them flipping their EC vote isn't going to happen.

And as for what the Founding Fathers "intended," the more I read, the more I learn about how they were trying to -- ironically -- protect the country from a popular vote, rather than a representative vote (hence, the Electoral College). Not to mention, the founding fathers didn't "intend" for a lot of stuff, like candidates emerging from political parties for starters.

But with a changing society comes a changing of the rules....like when electors all decided to pool their votes toward the popular vote of the state, rather than picking whoever they wanted. The founding fathers did not intend for this sort of collaboration (which goes back to them being against political parties...)

It already has. Jackson won both the PV and the EC in 1824 but the Presidency was given to John Quincy Adams.

This isn't really accurate. The winner has to receive a majority of the votes. No one did, so it went to the House. From Wiki:

Since no candidate received the required majority of electoral votes, the presidential election was decided by the House of Representatives (see "Contingent election" below)

 

[clevbrowns94]

I highly doubt that many will, but honestly, if at least a couple flip, I would feel good about it. As in, feeling that the electoral college has some purpose, and that if things were closer (like say, it coming down to one electoral vote difference or NH's four votes), they could have actually stopped us from having President Trump.

 

[btrboyev]

this would be the worse possible thing to happen.

not like this....not like this smh

the people has spoken its time to move on.

Disagree that it would be the worse thing. The worst thing is already going to happen. This election cycle has been batshit insane since the beginning. We need an equally batshit insane ending.

 

[Brakke]

1824, Andrew Jackson won the popular and electoral vote. The EC elected John Quincy Adams as president.

There's your precedent, not that one is needed to uphold a constitutional law.

Jackson didn't win the Electoral College. He got a plurality, which is not a victory. And the EC didn't elect John Q.

 

[Aselith]

It is imperative that Democracy is done, you may say the cost this time is too high, until the system is flipped and your candidate loses. Trump will likely be awful but if he is not elected then I really fear for America

Electors being able to do this is part of democracy.

 

[Bruce Springsteen]

it ain't happening folks!!!


I understand having civil and intelligent discussions about this, but civil war would break out if Trump didn't become president, that's not an exaggeration