Support NeoGAF

[Nome]

ill put it this way.

im weighing each one of his malicious comments against malicious comments made against him, and the score is like 3,000,000 to 26 in the mobs favor. i just cant be mad at him knowing the shit he has to put up with just by browsing the internet.

at the end of the day its just fucking videogames. who cares if he insults "gamer culture"? i cant even muster half a shit.

Remember that time Treyarch designers went apeshit on the CoD playerbase because they got deaththreats for balance changes?
What about the time Iwata shittalked fans on Twitter because they asked for his resignation?

No? Right, because they never happened. Because there's a basic standard that most developers (hell, most people) adhere to on the internet. People who are level-headed don't generally find themselves in this position.

 

[Shinta]

"MRA" is a weird thing to call a smear when it is an actual set of beliefs that people on the internet subscribe to and willingly post about.

So how about you just call self-identified MRA members MRA?

How many people on NeoGAF have identified themselves as MRA? I can't recall even one person doing it on NeoGAF.

It's absolutely used as a smear, the overwhelming majority of the time. It's something that others label you as, usually when you take any kind of critical view of anything related to feminism on this site. There are legitimately, self-identified MRA out there, but they're so few that I've never even seen one on NeoGAF. The term is used almost exclusively to shame people and shut them up on here.

 

[BertleTheTurtle]

Can any non-insane person summarize what has happened here?

From what I gather, Phil Fish's twitter and website were hacked and a bunch of private business information was revealed

Not the twitter, just the website.

 

[Azure Dream]

Wait, where did the whole Ouran exchange get removed? Was this it? Was the base file replaced?

The tweet block was about Phil's reaction just as much as it was about Zoe, if not more.

 

[SapientWolf]

More importantly it has nothing todo with Phil Fish, sounds like he is in the firing line because he made 1 or 2 comments about the situation.

People have just wanted any reason to attack him.

That makes believe that it has nothing to do with Zoe either. At least, not directly. I think he was in the line of sights for awhile, and maybe the Zoe thing was just convenient timing, or the last straw, or whatever. My belief is that it was a group or a person with a personal vendetta against Phil Fish for something he said or did, and they were planning it for longer than the Zoe controversy.

But whoever did it was playing it up for the people watching the controversy. They turned it into a public execution. It was really vicious and uncalled for. Like most of what has happened during this fiasco. Some people only wanted an excuse to start trouble.

 

[unbias]

Following him on twitter the last two weeks was hard. He just openly insulted pretty much everyone. Absolutely unnecessary toxic behaviour.
What happened here is terrible and indefensible, but Fish, at least how he portrayed himself online, is an asshole.

Yet he gets a certain amount of attention from the gaming community. His "toxic" behavior is for the most part irrelevant, since his influence in the industry(in terms of actually effecting it) is very small. Most of the clout he has is practically given by both his fans and his detractors. He has a target on him, not simply because he comes across as an ass, but because most gaming devs are boring...boring is safe and when everyone else is quiet and you are the loud one, in a room full of people, it can be dangerous.

 

[SigSig]

That isn't to say Phil doesn't receive abuse all the time, he does, but someone on GAF calling him an asshole is not comparable in any way shape or form to orchestrating a hate campaign. It is also not comparable to ganging up.

I understand, sorry if I came across as condescending.
I still think continuing calling him names is disgusting, regarding the position he is in right now (and regarding that everyone here knows what kind of position he's in), but this is everyone's own decision to make.

 

[IncandescentPrecept]

Why would he have consumer paypal information.

Then, I guess nothing that can be used for damage has been obtained by the hackers.

 

[Karkador]

So how about you just call self-identified MRA members MRA?

How many people on NeoGAF have identified themselves as MRA? I can't recall even one person doing it on NeoGAF.

It's absolutely used as a smear, the overwhelming majority of the time. It's something that others label you as, usually when you take any kind of critical view of anything related to feminism on this site. There are legitimately, self-identified MRA out there, but they're so few that I've never even seen one on NeoGAF.

Dude, I don't want to continue this tangent, at least not in this thread. I know we're both enthusiastic about this topic, but it's really off-topic here. PM me or start a new thread or something.

 

[BertleTheTurtle]

Wait, where did the whole Ouran exchange get removed? Was this it? Was the base file replaced?

The tweet block was about Phil's reaction just as much as it was about Zoe, if not more.

Meh, it's not hard to prove Phil Fish is an asshole anyway.

Just go with "choke on it" or "I wish gamers were inside a building so I could watch them all burn" or whatever he said.

 

[Goddard]

The repercussions of somebody not famous in any sort of way is laughable.

I also never said the internet as a whole should be censored, rather, specific discussions, certain groups. How are those things decided, well, people that have no intention of listening or changing shouldn't be treated like everybody else, if that everybody else is willing to listen or change. If somebody can't handle themselves on twitter, them getting a IP ban for a couple of weeks at a time wouldn't be a drastic action from my perspective.

We're given something fantastic, the internet, and some people utilize this gift like shit.

Horrible, awful perspective to have on free speech man. Any place that is a public forum like Twitter already has rules in place that aren't censorship but accomplish a similar goal to what you want. On twitter, and pretty much any other public forum on the internet, there are basic rules, don't violate any laws, don't harass people, don't threaten people, don't impersonate people. Doing any of those things will get you banned from most places. Imposing extra rules in those places, like IP banning someone for calling someone else a fucking cunt, or saying things that don't contribute to whatever your idea is of "good discussion" just leads to the complete collapse of free speech. Also, you mentioned that social repercussions for non-famous people in a public forum are nothing, well you are dead wrong. If someone is talking to their friend on twitter and says something obscenely ignorant yet not illegal, all their friends will likely see it and as a result they will get any consequence they have coming naturally. Maybe he will get shit on by his other friend, maybe he will be congratulated for some reason by another, maybe he will lose followers, it doesn't matter what the consequence is, because there are no specific rules on discussion, but it is there. If he has no followers and just made a new account to harass someone like Phil Fish, that is already bannable. If he says something offensive to you but not the people he is talking to, and receives no consequence, that is fine, it is his right to say whatever he wants as long as it doesn't violate the global rules. On a private place like NeoGAF you don't have those rights, it is a privilege. Free speech in a public forum is not a privilege, it is a right.

Whether or not you think someone should be IP banned for being a prick on Twitter, giving someone the power to decide what is reasonable and what is not in a public forum is extremely destructive.

 

[unbias]

But whoever did it was playing it up for the people watching the controversy. They turned it into a public execution. It was really vicious and uncalled for. Like most of what has happened during this fiasco. Some people only wanted an excuse to start trouble.

I'd wager the actual hacker was taking advantage of the situation, to hack. Now he is the anti-hero to the mob and infamous to the people who think he is a scumbag.

 

[Azure Dream]

Meh, it's not hard to prove Phil Fish is an asshole anyway.

Just go with "choke on it" or "I wish gamers were inside a building so I could watch them all burn" or whatever he said.

That's beside the point, and this apparently went far beyond the "choke on it" exchange.

 

[Goddard]

I understand, sorry if I came across as condescending.
I still think continuing calling him names is disgusting, regarding the position he is in right now (and regarding that everyone here knows what kind of position he's in), but this is everyone's own decision to make.

It is a side discussion taking place with context in the past. No one here is saying "Phil Fish is an asshole he has it coming." We were talking about his actions before this all happened and the responses before this all happened.

 

[SigSig]

It is a side discussion taking place with context in the past. No one here is saying "Phil Fish is an asshole he has it coming." We were talking about his actions before this all happened and the responses before this all happened.

Fair enough.

Following him on twitter the last two weeks was hard. He just openly insulted pretty much everyone. Absolutely unnecessary toxic behaviour.
What happened here is terrible and indefensible, but Fish, at least how he portrayed himself online, is an asshole. He just seemed to enjoy to be in the middle of this huge shitstorm and fueling it at every opportunity

Many of the problematic posts were quoted wildly out of context (e.g. the anime one) and weren't insults imho.
Did you read the full conversations or just the quoted posts?

 

[JackDT]

I can't believe anyone is still seriously entertaining that it was /v/ that did it. I think you need to have little to no conception of how 4chan works to implicate an entire board, or even "members" of that board in this act. There is no scenario where you can point the finger at an anonymous community as a whole, or it's leadership, especially with that silly, almost parody-like hack readings.

Hell, it could be someone or some people that post there every once in a while but that is ultimately irrelevant. Whoever organized this, did so independently from the varied society that is /v/.

Nobody is entertaining that notion or even cares about it, it could be a hacker who posts at vatican.com and it doesn't make a difference.

What does implicate the community of 4chan as a whole, in my eyes, is the tone of the discussion being had there on these topics. That does represent the community.

 

[Joey Ravn]

Phil Fish's real name is Philippe Poisson.

Mind = blown.

 

[PrivateRyan]

Following him on twitter the last two weeks was hard. He just openly insulted pretty much everyone. Absolutely unnecessary toxic behaviour.
What happened here is terrible and indefensible, but Fish, at least how he portrayed himself online, is an asshole. He just seemed to enjoy to be in the middle of this huge shitstorm and fueling it at every opportunity

I hadn't actually noticed and I'm speaking as someone who's on Twitter (I noticed a few people RTing what Fish said about Ferguson onto my TL but that was it).

What worries me is Phil Fish ranting and raving doesn't have much of an effect on the industry - he's only harming his own rep, really - but something like this, where he's hounded out of the industry, absolutely does. It discourages developers from speaking out, being public-facing, etc. It erodes that confidence and trust between the two parties.

On an entirely human level, it's actually really disappointing that something like this happens at all, that someone feels something like this is justified for whatever reason.

Very sad.

 

[ponpo]

Out of curiousity what should we be discussing in this thread? His personal twitter account getting hacked? Whether he sucks or not?

 

[Necromanti]

It's not true. That is basically saying, it is impossible to legitimately criticize feminism. It's always been the same smear. Fedora, MRA.

The message is, "no criticism allowed." That right there is one of the biggest criticisms about feminism in it's current, online form. That has nothing to do with being "anti-equality."

Well, social conservatism is obviously a thing, so of course there will be people not in favor of the disestablishment of, say, traditional gender roles. But I'm seeing a disconnect between being for egalitarianism in all aspects while simultaneously rejecting an ideology that concerns equalizing the status of women in society so that everyone can benefit from that. (E.g. By rejecting beliefs like women are automagically better parents, or by acknowledging areas in society where women are institutionally disadvantaged.) That seems like an inherent contradiction to me.

If you're critical about areas of the feminist movement is a whole other debate; I don't pay attention to Tumblr trolls that I'm not convinced of them actually being serious (like those who mock trans people by constructing trans-ethnic/trans-fat identities), and treat them as a reflection of the movement as I would fundamentalist, Islamic terrorists as a reflection on Islam and Muslims on a whole.

Anyway, I will cease my derail. While this touches on the issues concerning what May have motivated the people behind the attack, the guise under which they commit crimes is probably not that relevant in this thread.

 

[Marsyas]

Calling people an MRA is another way of basically saying, you're either with us, or against us. You're a feminist or you're a bigot.

It's not true. That is basically saying, it is impossible to legitimately criticize feminism. It's always been the same smear. Fedora, MRA.

The message is, "no criticism allowed." That right there is one of the biggest criticisms about feminism in it's current, online form. That has nothing to do with being "anti-equality."

Of course it’s possible to criticize the different forms of feminism and how some feminists act. But just saying “the main problem with feminism is that no criticism is allowed” is very shallow, and hacking someones website is not really a sane way to express criticism.

EDIT: The “no criticism allowed“-angle isn’t just shallow, it’s also wrong (since there’s tons of it) and it feeds into the same “us vs. them”-logic you complained about in another post.

 

[Madness]

Damn, the sheer amount of info released is ridiculous. Private emails, passwords, accounts, website passwords, PayPal information, bank account numbers and deposits, personal phones, addresses. Basically his entire personal identity was hacked. How is something like this even possible?

 

[unbias]

Damn, the sheer amount of info released is ridiculous. Private emails, passwords, accounts, website passwords, PayPal information back account numbers and deposits, personal phones, addresses. Basically his entire personal identity was hacked. How is something like this even possible?

Either a really dedicated hacker or Phil didn't secure shit.

 

[Goddard]

Many of the problematic posts were quoted wildly out of context (e.g. the anime one) and weren't insults imho.
Did you read the full conversations or just the quoted posts?

They were apparently insults in many other people's humble opinions.

 

[SigSig]

Damn, the sheer amount of info released is ridiculous. Private emails, passwords, accounts, website passwords, PayPal information back account numbers and deposits, personal phones, addresses. Basically his entire personal identity was hacked. How is something like this even possible?

The Cloud™ and maybe some help from a keylogger.

 

[Toxi]

OK, this action was taking things far too far but If by "equality" you mean acting like a bunch of hysterical idiots, then sure, equality.

A man just got his financial records broken into and leaked on the internet out of spite for twitter comments and you think the hysterical idiots are the ones whining about boobs.

Get some fucking perspective.

 

[YianGaruga]

Many of the problematic posts were quoted wildly out of context (e.g. the anime one) and weren't insults imho.
Did you read the full conversations or just the quoted posts?

What do you mean quoted posts? I follow him on twitter and saw most tweets that weren't a reply to someone else. I only saw a few direct replies.

I can't look up the exact quotes anymore because his twitter is closed, but he basically called entire subcommunities of gamers "scum", "unpeople" and so on.

The context doesn't even matter. You just don't say the things he said if you're a public person (even if they weren't unprovoked) unless you want more and more people to hate you. He just has zero impulse control.

 

[Goddard]

Either a really dedicated hacker or Phil didn't secure shit.

Definitely the first option. Anyone who has seen things like this happen before can tell it's (relative to most of the shit that goes on when someone on 4chan tries to hack something,) masterfully executed. At least so far.

 

[unbias]

The Cloud™ and maybe some help from a keylogger.

Key-logging only helps if you only use 1 step verification, typically. Sometimes it can work with 2 step if you type in your 2nd form of protection.

 

[vagabondarts]

Damn, the sheer amount of info released is ridiculous. Private emails, passwords, accounts, website passwords, PayPal information back account numbers and deposits, personal phones, addresses. Basically his entire personal identity was hacked. How is something like this even possible?

Maybe someone close to him that already had access.
Former employee or colleague?

 

[Karkador]

What worries me is Phil Fish ranting and raving doesn't have much of an effect on the industry - he's only harming his own rep, really - but something like this, where he's hounded out of the industry, absolutely does. It discourages developers from speaking out, being public-facing, etc. It erodes that confidence and trust between the two parties.

I can agree with this. Phil Fish's voice might not have been particularly good, but that only makes it seem even more okay to literally ruin someone just because you don't like their voice in the game industry. It's a really bad precedent.

 

[enzo_gt]

I mean, it's great to discuss the merits of whether Phil Fish was an asshole or a gigantic asshole, but im not sure why that's relevant here.

No matter how many ignorant and childish things he's said, he did not deserve to have his entire life thrown out of the window, and furthermore have all of his associates' businesses and well-beings jeopardized as well. It's simply too far. We should probably get back on topic.

 

[SigSig]

They were apparently insults in many other people's humble opinions.

Did they read the whole conversation though?
Like, the anime avatar one specifically (which exploded big time) wasn't at all targeted at people with anime avatars, but at racists on twitter.
And this one wasn't even ambiguous, just reading the context would have been enough to get it. Instead, people started shit about how Phil Fish hates all the Anime (just like people started shit about how Phil Fish hates all the japanese).

 

[genbatzu]

Damn, the sheer amount of info released is ridiculous. Private emails, passwords, accounts, website passwords, PayPal information back account numbers and deposits, personal phones, addresses. Basically his entire personal identity was hacked. How is something like this even possible?

I asked myself the same question, and according to screenshots of the folder structure of the hacked material someone posted in this thread, it seems like he kept his entire life on his computer. which is... not a good idea imo...

 

[JBourne]

I can agree with this. Phil Fish's voice might not have been particularly good, but that only makes it seem even more okay to literally ruin someone just because you don't like their voice in the game industry.

Yeah, this was meant to instill fear in anyone else who might consider speaking up about issues in the industry.

 

[Dr.Acula]

Can any non-insane person summarize what has happened here?

From what I gather, Phil Fish's twitter and website were hacked and a bunch of private business information was revealed… and then somehow this is connected to Zoe Quinn whose been flamed by a jealous ex-boyfriend? and now Fish is quitting games and the internet for a fourth time? Does any of this actually have anything to do with video games?

It's worse then the Enquirer.

Paging Lionel Mandrake.

All of Fish's financials relating to Sony/Valve/MS were dumped online. His SSN, SIN, bank info, a lot of passwords and user accounts. Former addresses, bank statements, the lot.

I think the Quinn stuff is a co-incidence/smokescreen. I'm betting a bunch of people have been trying to dox Fish for a while, given how outspoken he's been.

/v/ claims no involvement. /V/ claims responsibility.

This was on the http://polytroncorporation.com/ site along with a lot of personal data:

Hello everyone, I am the head mod over at /V/ and leader of 4chan.org and Anonymous.
This public execution of Polytron and Phil Fish is retaliation for his attempted coverup of five guys burger and fries.
Let this be a warning to all SJW game devs out there, we are coming for you.
The hack of Zoe Quinn has already taken place as of a few days ago and I have targeted more SJW indie devs today.

My next target is Phil Fish. Karma's a bitch ain't it Phil?

We are /V/
We do not forgive
At all

So the Quinn stuff comes in because the hacker claims the doxxing is retribution for Fish "covering up" Quinn's relationship drama.

And here we go.

 

[unbias]

Definitely the first option. Anyone who has seen things like this happen before can tell it's (relative to most of the shit that goes on when someone on 4chan tries to hack something,) masterfully executed. At least so far.

Not really, the amount of stuff that has been leaked leads me to believe he wasn't properly secured. The variety in content leaked leads me to believe he at most used 2 step verification. 2 step verification for someone who has an IP worth more then 6 digits, posts a lot of stuff, and is very public should be using multi-factor security(honestly most sensitive security should having this regardless). If he did have all of that and still got hacked, then damn, people must have been working on hacking him for awhile now.

 

[ZacharyDCCLXXVII]

No matter how much of a problem I had with Phil's attitude and behavior, this isn't something him, or anybody else really deserves.

It's disappointing that things have gone this far. Was bad enough before, now it's just reaching a whole new level of stupid.

 

[dark_inferno]

Paging Lionel Mandrake.

All of Fish's financials relating to Sony/Valve/MS were dumped online. His SSN, SIN, bank info, a lot of passwords and user accounts. Former addresses, bank statements, the lot.

I think the Quinn stuff is a co-incidence/smokescreen. I'm betting a bunch of people have been trying to dox Fish for a while, given how outspoken he's been.

/v/ claims no involvement. /V/ claims responsibility.

This was on the http://polytroncorporation.com/ site along with a lot of personal data:



And here we go.

So Edmund Mcmillen next?

 

[SigSig]

I can't look up the exact quotes anymore because his twitter is closed, but he basically called entire subcommunities of gamers "scum", "unpeople" and so on.

The context doesn't even matter. You just don't say the things he said if you're a public person (even if they weren't unprovoked) unless you want more and more people to hate you. He just has zero impulse control.

I haven't really followed the recent shitstorms, but weren't these posts in the vein of "the media are assholes" = critisizing yellow press and not shitting on quality journalists or Gaf's own shitting on "EA", by which they don't actually mean every single employee, but just specific parts of their management?

Anyway, you are right, people can have any opinion they want of Phil Fish. I kinda overshot on that one, sorry.
I just wished it wasn't so negative and had to end like this (on which we probably agree).

 

[Famassu]

Welp. 4chan being awful.

I like Phil Fish too. Hope he changes all his details quickly.

What sorta people get angry over game devs NOT being sexist, racist people wat

The same kind of people who install black smoke-blowing pipethingies in their cars from which they will blow black smoke on bikers, runners and other verified hippies just because they think climate change and environmental destruction is not true or dangerous to the future of mankind.

 

[Backfoggen]

RIP all hopes of FEZ 2 ever happening. This is completely fucked.

 

[Goddard]

Yeah, this was meant to instill fear in anyone else who might consider speaking up about issues in the industry.

The irony of what they are actually doing is incredible.

Did they read the whole conversation though?
Like, the anime avatar one specifically (which exploded big time) wasn't at all targeted at people with anime avatars, but at racists on twitter.
And this one wasn't even ambiguous, just reading the context would have been enough to get it. Instead, people started shit about how Phil Fish hates all the Anime (just like people started shit about how Phil Fish hates all the japanese).

None of that really matters. Phil Fish is a famous person, who not only knew he was famous, but already knew what the consequences for not being careful with your words when you're famous were, and then continued to have no regard for this and said a bunch of dumb shit. Regardless of whether or not reading through context would change the meaning of what he said or not, he knew when posting that not everyone is going to have all the context, so the context is effectively meaningless. Add up all those factors and what you have is either an asshole or someone who is remarkably good at sounding like an asshole, so basically just an asshole either way.

 

[Ethelwulf]

Holly hell! Has he put Polytron for sale?

 

[Brakke]

Damn, the sheer amount of info released is ridiculous. Private emails, passwords, accounts, website passwords, PayPal information back account numbers and deposits, personal phones, addresses. Basically his entire personal identity was hacked. How is something like this even possible?

Unless you're real serious about it, most security measures you've naturally got up on only really effective at keeping your accounts from being compromised by an up targeting "dragnet" type fishing attack. If someone dedicates to targeting you and specifically you, most of these measures are worthless. You can get a lot of personal information from a bank over the phone if you impersonate someone.

 

[SliceSabre]

I didn't think hackers were so damn upset about Fish.

I means he's no better than your Youtube comment troll sometime, no need to go and try to ruin his life.

 

[YianGaruga]

What worries me is Phil Fish ranting and raving doesn't have much of an effect on the industry - he's only harming his own rep, really - but something like this, where he's hounded out of the industry, absolutely does. It discourages developers from speaking out, being public-facing, etc. It erodes that confidence and trust between the two parties.

I can agree with this. Phil Fish's voice might not have been particularly good, but that only makes it seem even more okay to literally ruin someone just because you don't like their voice in the game industry. It's a really bad precedent.

For now I think this is a thing that is clearly focussed on Phil Fish and will not have any more wide-reaching consequences. People hated him before this, and they hated him even more after last week because he just poured more and more fuel into the fire with his toxic tweets and insults. It's something that is very focused on him and his personality.

There are many many outspoken people out there who can handle themselves and deal with these things rationally. Fish couldn't

 

[Conan-san]

A man just got his financial records broken into and leaked on the internet out of spite for twitter comments and you think the hysterical idiots are the ones whining about boobs.

Get some fucking perspective.

No I think the whole thing's a clusterfuck and, frankly, it's a wargames situation.

That's my fucking perspective.

 

[unbias]

I didn't think hackers were so damn upset about Fish.

I means he's no better than your Youtube comment troll sometime, no need to go and try to ruin his life.

I'd be shocked if they were. Any excuse to hack, it really can be addictive, I mean how else could you explain wardriving?

 

[Goddard]

Not really, the amount of stuff that has been leaked leads me to believe he wasn't properly secured. The variety in content leaked leads me to believe he at most used 2 step verification. 2 step verification for someone who has an IP worth more then 6 digits, posts a lot of stuff, and is very public should be using multi-factor security(honestly most sensitive security should having this regardless). If he did have all of that and still got hacked, then damn, people must have been working on hacking him for awhile now.

Fair point, but I imagine based on the execution of the leak itself, even if Fish was better secured a lot of important shit would still have got leaked, the only difference (and it is a hell of a difference,) is that the hackers happened to find a bunch of shit they weren't even looking for to begin with. Well, they found a bunch of shit they weren't expecting to find to begin with. They probably were looking for it.

RIP all hopes of FEZ 2 ever happening. This is completely fucked.

Am I out of the loop on this? I thought the game was confirmed dead for at least a year now, didn't he have an epic meltdown last year that led him to cancel it?