Uhh.. Who is he referring to? Who is saying he won? Any polls?
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Presidential Debate #1 |Hofstra University| PRESS X TO SEAN
- Thread starter B-Dubs
- Start date
- Status
Uhh.. Who is he referring to? Who is saying he won? Any polls?
Same arguments were used re Saddam. Did you support the Iraq war?
Maybe we should have blamed Iraq on the French too.
He's referring to online polls. Yeah, really.
No they weren't, Saddam was about WMD that didn't exist. Unless you're talking the original H. Bush Iraq war, in which case that really did prevent a massacre.
And what the hell did the French have to do with Iraq?
Dude Abides
Banned
No they weren't. Iraq's primary justification was fictitious WMDs, not an impending civilian massacre.
StopMakingSense
Member
No they weren't. Stop lying. You are just making shit up.
And no, I never supported the Iraq war don't put words I'm my fucking mouth. Too busy fighting cancer at the time.
DragonSworne
Banned
She is awful because people say she is awful, duh.
There is this negative expectation that has been built up around Hillary that casuals just make the assumption that she is awful due to all the rhetoric around her.
I was watching from the sidelines but come on, your point here is not grounded in reality.
They weren't but that isn't the point, it was a NATO lead operation instigated and lead by other states, drafted and signed by other countries and by the treaty created NATO we had obligation to assist where we could, in this case no troops on the ground, create a no fly zone. There were 19 different countries inside of NATO for god sake who participated in this intervention and after the bullshit we did in the area the past several decades you think it would go over well if we didn't assist where we could?
Hillary's justification was actually that we should 'finish the job' of the first gulf war.
If you believe that the USA has very little influence within NATO I'm not really sure where the discussion can go from here.
Snowybreak
Member
Trust me, it's a vertical battle. The people who say she's awful and then proceed to either jam up or throw out useless points without any form of reference are not people worth having a discussion with. They will continue to spout their own line of bullshit until the end. I've found that people who have the "Both Sides" mentality are literal secret Trump supporters.
They fill the air with useless lines and garbage points just to clutter up the valid points of other people so that any time they make any sort of point, valid or not, people are going to see it and react. Saying "but both sides..!" is just a way for people who are ill informed to jam up the system.
For reference, I was a Bernie guy and now I'm a Hillary guy. Because I'd rather not fuck up my own country.
Darryl M R
Member
Donald? Is that you?
Go fuck yourself.
I would absolutely vote for Hillary if I was an American citizen.
Do you have a source for that? I remember reading her reasoning for the vote at the time, and I don't recall anything like that. It was more that she trusted W to do what he needed to do to defend the country.
So it had nothing to do with the false intel about WMDs and Hillary wanted to go to war independent of that is what you're saying? Really?
Yeah, my mouth was literally agape almost the entire debate. Candidates prepare for weeks on end to avoid committing even a minor gaffe. Throughout the evening Trump confessed to criminal activities he'd either already committed, or intended to commit once in office.
...Jesus Christ...Howard Dean's presidential prospects were ended by an awkward and embarrassing rally cry. A little over a decade later we have a candidate admitting he has no morals, no ethics, no empathy, zero temperament or human decency, and that's viewed as a boon to his candidacy. This shit just cannot stand. I donated to a campaign for the first time last night since 2008.
StopMakingSense
Member
And we got a winner!
JetSetRadio
Banned
He survived, it's getting dangerous now.
Heavy_D206
Member
Essentially you are saying no one can think for themselves and will blindly agree with anything they hear.
Sounds like that would apply to any member of either party.
Independent voters are the only ones NOT blindly following along with what they are told.
I reserve the right to tell anyone who tells me that I am a Trump supporter because I dislike Hillary Clinton to kiss my arse.
Veritigo_X
Member
Did you expect him to give up and walk off stage?
This idea that Trump did okay because he didn't shit his pants and crawl off stage is weird.
Why is being for the Iraq war such a frowned upon thing? Sure in hindsight it was a disaster and the Intel was lies. But with that Intel, it'd be hard to imagine a different outcome. I'd think it more important about how people reflect on that in hindsight, and what they'd do to prevent another mistake like that again
People are flawed and make mistakes. Part of the reason decisions like war are made by way more than one person
People are flawed and make mistakes. Part of the reason decisions like war are made by way more than one person
DragonSworne
Banned
I specifically mean casuals. People who don't fact check and look into the issues. I feel that a good majority of the people who are "both sides are the same" fall into this category.
Many people.
Citation needed.
balladofwindfishes
Member
When we look back in November at how Trump lost, last night very well may be the point of no return for Trump's chances
It was that bad. And the most watched debate, ever.
Snowybreak
Member
I probably shouldn't reply to this, seeing as how I'm a junior, but I'm going to anyway.
You, yes you, are having a deflection competition with people trying to understand your viewpoint. You are not giving any sort of evidence or facts about the things you keep saying. It is not the job of the people you are talking to to fact check everything you say. If you want to say "go fuck yourself" to me, you better fucking prove how you believe Hillary is quote-on-quote "Awful".
It really is hard to imagine how Trump could have done worse short of cursing or walking off stage. Pre-debate, people were saying that all he had to do to "pass" was:
- Not lie
- Not get angry
- Act presidential
...and he failed spectacularly in each of those categories, and several more beyond them.
- Not lie
- Not get angry
- Act presidential
...and he failed spectacularly in each of those categories, and several more beyond them.
DragonSworne
Banned
The problem with the Iraq war is that 16 year old me knew the claims were either flimsy or bullshit and we went to war anyway without actually doing the critical thinking that Bush Jr and co. might have ulterior motives then the safest of our country.
It's frustrating to believe that our politicians didn't have their doubts. We shouldn't be taking their current reasoning for going to war at face value since I know they had doubts but still voted to go to war due to drummed up nationalism. It was a dark day in our country than can easily be repeated and most likely will since few actual reflect on their vote.
BinaryPork2737
Unconfirmed Member
Or you could have just said "I'm not a Trump supporter" and moved on instead of resorting to a low level move like that.
I'm really interested in seeing how voter turnout for the general goes, but I could definitely see lower turnout numbers than the last presidential election.
eBay Huckster
Member
That's literally the entire goddamn justification she gave in October 2002
(search "Mrs. CLINTON. Mr. President, I thank the Senator from West Virginia")
I think it's more the lack of a sense of proportionality. On a scale of badness from zero to hundred Clinton has some stuff that rates in the 30-40 range, while most of Trumps stuff rates in the 80-90 range. But if you look just at a binary then both candidates did something bad and thus must be the same.
Joe Shlabotnik
Banned
The only reference I can find is Chuck Hagel telling her that the resolution was a vote to let inspectors in to "finish the job" [of inspections].
Samn, response?
IamDodongo
Member
I can't say how others look at it, but the lead up to the Iraq war vote was stemmed by a lot of problematic conflicts of interest within the administration calling the shots. Alongside that there was international groups who kept saying the info was false or needed more investigation. There was also the nature of the invasion, it was pre-emptive attack with only a simple intelligence report with high consequences when we were already in a war in that region already and hadn't finished what we started. I feel that judgement was impacted by those who voted for it, I do not blame for doing so given the strain but I also believe it should be considered a mistake, one that should be acknowledged even if they felt it right at the time, there was enough out there to make them question the rationale for doing so if they looked.
Saddam himself said after he was captured that he had been trying to make it seem like he had WMD to deter Iran and that's why he didn't allow inspectors in.
The intel was false, yes, but it wasn't a stretch at the time to believe that a dictator who had used WMD in the past had WMD.
Those surreal qualities are why he's such a strong candidate. That bullshit is exactly what a certain segment of the base wants. Everything can be rationalized:
-make rogue business decisions that may hurt others, but improve business (make America great by any means necessary!)
-do what it takes to reduce crime and not be too PC to blame certain races in the process. The reason other politicians can't get things done are because they are too afraid to say what's needed to get results
-be tough at all times. Interrupt others, disparage the moderator, don't let others get away with anything. Including foreigners mocking the USA
-some treaties are hurting America. Do what it takes to change things to americas favor even if it violates the treaties
-don't be too PC and afraid to call things for what they are. Rosie And miss America both got told the truth even though it hurt
-a strong temper makes a strong individual. USA will be second place no more!
I believe none of that, by the way. The point is that the trump everyone hates is EXACTLY the trump the base likes. This election will be a reveal on exactly who outnumbers who
BreezyLimbo
Banned
Man it's still surreal.
-Trump Lied
-When called out, Trump lied about his lies
-Admitted to Tax evasion
-Admitted to taking advantage of an economic crisis, insulted the country with 'It was good business'
-Agreed with Hillary on various points, making his own points seem weak
-Admitted he only cares for himself and his family
-Trump Lied
-When called out, Trump lied about his lies
-Admitted to Tax evasion
-Admitted to taking advantage of an economic crisis, insulted the country with 'It was good business'
-Agreed with Hillary on various points, making his own points seem weak
-Admitted he only cares for himself and his family
Rentahamster
Rodent Whores
It can be argued that she was implying the first war didn't achieve it's goals completely, and that we now have to go back in, either with inspectors or with force, to get Saddam Hussein to fully comply.
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/1/12/435624/-
But she didn't say "finish the job" specifically. As far as I can remember.
It wasn't even hindsight at the time. The supposed intelligence that was coming out was incredibly questionable. Saddam had been contained since Gulf War 1.
It was unjustified by many Americans and the world at large at the time. If America's proof of mass destruction weapon was solid, all they had to do was wait for UN to confirm it through their independent investigation.
Instead, we went in with barely a coalition, cause the rest of the world realized it was a bullshit war.
BotoxAgent
Member
I feel like the debates really finally shattered that weird teflon aura Donald Trump has been idiotically enjoying. Hillary and the democrats smell blood now.
Emails, Benghazi, Emails, Stamina.
That was the most pathetic debate performance I've ever seen from a presidential candidate. The difference now is that Trump could brute force his way to a win in the republican debates.. on the national stage, however, it's a different story.
He just made himself look like an angry, incompetent fool in front of over 100M people.
If he wants to win he's gunna have to at least PRETEND he's not this much of a fuckup. No one who's on the fence is going to vote for someone who acts like a child and interrupts an explanation or question at any given second.
As someone who's historically not cared much for Hillary, I thought she performed spectacularly and level headed. She really delivered last night; I hope she does the same in the next two debates. I will be voting for her in November.
He just made himself look like an angry, incompetent fool in front of over 100M people.
If he wants to win he's gunna have to at least PRETEND he's not this much of a fuckup. No one who's on the fence is going to vote for someone who acts like a child and interrupts an explanation or question at any given second.
As someone who's historically not cared much for Hillary, I thought she performed spectacularly and level headed. She really delivered last night; I hope she does the same in the next two debates. I will be voting for her in November.
Already Torn
Banned
I don't think anyone likes the fact that he doesn't pay his blue-collared workers. In that sense he's exactly who he's always complaining about.
TheLaughingStock
Member
Dude/gal it's not like it has been 3 hours or say 24 hours since I made the comment?
In any event, I think if you're aiming for a liberal or conservative SC rather than simply aiming to know the final interpretation to settle a dispute, then it appears that way. Furthermore, I'm not saying it's not important. It's a very important issue.
I'm saying I can understand why the ideological views of appointments or say what the political leaning of the overall court would be over 20 years doesn't necessarily weigh up to other factors that concern and affect the lives of many. Do the benefits and costs of those final legal interpretations match up or exceed things like safety and the economy? I don't think they do and perhaps that's why the polling data disappoints people who think the court should matter more in the eyes of voters or be the overriding factor to vote Democrat or Republican.
Mighty Chin
Banned
How many times did Trump say he agreed with Hillary?
You should never say that in a Presidential Debate. Really makes you look weak.
You should never say that in a Presidential Debate. Really makes you look weak.
Already Torn
Banned
Wrong. WRONG! It doesn't.
- Status
Similar threads
- Poll