I've honestly never seen someone defending tripping in this way... wow.
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Project M 3.0 |OT| More Smash Bros. is a good thing
- Thread starter sinxtanx
- Start date
I've honestly never seen someone defending tripping in this way... wow.
poopninjamvc3mk
I sucked six dicks to get this tag.
lol wut?
Well even in casual matches I've experienced even though it's not often, against a person who's competent, tripping can cost the match. I'm also not sure how limiting movement is good game design, nor was a bunch of other strange gameplay decisions that Brawl did.
DICKS AHOY
Banned
I don't give a shit about competitive play (I'm into Project M more for the character changes and Brawl-modding in general is fun), Brawl is my favorite of the vanilla Smash releases and I normally groan whenever anybody goes on about how horrible the last Smash was while pretending the casual fanbase (which probably makes up plus 90% of the game's sales) doesn't exist, but tripping was absolutely an awful, awful idea. No clue how it remotely helped even the playing field for casuals either, especially when there was already a much more logical handicap system in place.
Still have memories of working my way through All-Star and Boss Rush on Intense, and getting fucked over royally by a sudden random trip. Glad Sakurai's said right from the get go that shit isn't going to be in SSB4.
You seem to not have any idea what you're talking about.
Tripping would have NO affect on wavedashing. Tripping's only purpose is to punish people who like to run around a lot.
dragonlife
Member
Thanks!
Seeing Raging Spaniard's side of things--that's what the hell I'm doing.
But none of that matters after seeing this:
What set off the Media Create one?
Prevents glitches? What glitches? And why would Smash Bros. Brawl have glitches so bad that a new mechanic has to use RNGs to determine you falling down randomly even if you aren't glitching?
You're saying that because people don't like losing control of their character because the game randomly flips a card to say "trip" which no amount of skill could ever train for is why it's working as intended?
I wonder why Sakurai removed it in Smash Bros. U then.
Barrow Roll
Member
You mean it was built to punish anyone that tried to initiate a dash at any possible moment. It's an absurd mechanic and I can't believe I'm seeing someone defend it based on spite for people playing a game in a way that they don't enjoy.
If people want to play Metaknight dittos on FD with no items then that's their prerogative, it's an option included in the game.
If anything, it's Brawl that tried to cut out the competitive players while Melee and Project M are fun for everyone, casual and competitive players alike.
theprodigy
Member
I made this post:
some guy followed up later:
got banned immediately from what I can tell
I was like
(it's just one dude though)
also, I really don't get the people that are like "why are the competitive players forcing their playstyle on everyone" then turn around and insult everyone who plays competitively
Um, it's just an additional movement option, it's really not that big of a deal if it's in a Smash game or not.
DICKS AHOY
Banned
Speaking of wavedashing, while I don't mind it one way or the other, why can't you still have the multiple air-dodges Brawl gave you while still being able to wavedash in Brawl? Is it just a balance issue, or does having the ability to dodge in the air without your momentum being affected fuck around with how it works?
theprodigy
Member
Isn't it because it weirdly stops momentum if you get hit far, and you Brawl air dodge? Keeps people living for longer than they should
It's exactly that.
The directional movement of the air dodge gets transitions to your landing, and it makes you slide. That causes a wavedash.
Sakurai and team knew how to do it before melee's released.
SAKURAI WAVEDASHES! He literally only took it out of Brawl because he wanted to lessen the gap between the really good players, and the newer ones.
Agent Icebeezy
Welcome beautful toddler, Madison Elizabeth, to the horde!
If anyone with Dolphin is playing this, I can't use my controller in here. Neither old Wiimote or Wiimote Plus. I can only key in commands with the keyboard. At a loss of where I should go for help. I'm using Dolphin 4.0
Thats fine, until you play with someone who knows that lucas/ness can be chain grabed for all eternity and you can only watch and do nothing...
theprodigy
Member
well actually, since apparently by some people's arguments this must be true.....
this means the "hardcore" is a majority, since Brawl didn't double Melee's sales
Which honestly is fine, but I do think he took it a bit too far by lowering hitstun (so there's almost no combos except a few things + everything Metaknight does), weird stuff like not being able to grab items while running, stale moves sounding like a good idea but ended up not working as intended (everyone in competitive Brawl abusing bairs and such). Balanced Brawl and Brawl+ played pretty well without stuff like wavedashing, but the other stuff was just baffling from even a game design perspective.
Plug in the controller, restart dolphin, hit the refresh button, then in the top left where it says "Device", choose your controller.
I had an issue with Dolphin where it wasn't detecting controllers - I had to go into the options and set each player and port manually, then it was good to go.
He took it too far with the hitstun, dodging, tripping, floating, etc.
It's still a great game, it just has this dumb idea that you should be punished for trying to get good at it.
Exactly, and that's why a lot of "competitive" players were upset. It's not like Melee was bad as a casual game...in some ways it was better (actual combos, Pokeballs not limited to just 3, etc.)
It was like fixing what wasn't broken really.
It was unintended for you to be able to move like that in Melee or any of the other competitive movement techniques. I definitely would not call it an "additional movement option".
So it is a "big deal" if I'm playing online when Wii U smash comes out and players use mechanics that aren't supposed to be in the game to have an advantage over others.
theprodigy
Member
basically, the only things that were removed that weren't detrimental, off the top of my head:
1) L-Canceling, which I hope doesn't come back in its Melee form at all, because it's essentially a required input for every aerial, which is pointless
2) wavedashing, which isn't stupid like L-Canceling but admittedly was hardly a key feature
and seriously, if Brawl came with Melee physics, nobody would actually complain about the gameplay, the main reason people prefer Brawl is because of characters and stages
combos were also originally a glitch
good thing Capcom didn't remove them from the game!
1) L-Canceling, which I hope doesn't come back in its Melee form at all, because it's essentially a required input for every aerial, which is pointless
2) wavedashing, which isn't stupid like L-Canceling but admittedly was hardly a key feature
and seriously, if Brawl came with Melee physics, nobody would actually complain about the gameplay, the main reason people prefer Brawl is because of characters and stages
combos were also originally a glitch
good thing Capcom didn't remove them from the game!
What's wrong with being unintended? It's not like it was broken or overpowered in anyway, it was just a way to slide forward or backwards a bit, which was a result of how the air dodge system and physics worked (and even shows up in debug mode as a waveland! So there's debate on whether it was intentional anyway!)
Personally I think wavedashing shouldn't be in Brawl 4, but stuff like dash dancing (moving back and forth to fake out which way you're moving) didn't need to be removed. It added a bit of layer to people's movement game in casual and competitive matches without adding too much execution (it's difficult to figure out wavedashing by yourself)
Whiskeymatt
Member
man did someone wavedash over your dog or something
Agent Icebeezy
Welcome beautful toddler, Madison Elizabeth, to the horde!
Thanks for the help. May I ask, I'm talking about real Wiimotes, I'm assuming you two are doing the same. Also, I can boot up vanilla Smash Brothers and use these wiimotes fine, its when I switch over to Project M that I can't do it. That is the perplexing part.
You don't have to play according to tier lists, but tier lists are kind of accurate though. If you're playing to win, then you may have to change up your choice of characters.
It's the same as if you're watching sports. Say your team is garbage. Like at the bottom of the barrel garbage. You're a betting man/woman. Are you going to keep betting on your team when they just don't have the talent to win, or are you going to actually make some money and put your cash where you'll actually have success?
Agreed. Trying to alienate one group directly affects everyone negatively. Melee was great because it didn't punish you for playing your way. It let you go however far your imagination would take you.
Pokeballs I think were an engine problem though. Same with only having Dragoon, or the Smash ball in a match.
I don't care about this argument or the context this is said in but this is my favourite quote.
Well L-Canceling was intentional for sure (reduced all lag in 64 and then they changed it to only half in Melee right?). I wouldn't mind it returning if they made a more obvious cue of it working like Project M does with a white flash....except maybe make it a bit more obvious. And give benefits to not L-Canceling, perhaps more damage/KO potential if you do a laggy version of an aerial?
Did you know that the Cherry Clone powerup in Mario 3D World wasn't intentional at first either? It's something that happened due to a slight miscalculation, and the developers decided it wasn't bad, so they ran with it.
Same thing with Wavedashing.
Did anyone complain about L-Canceling in Smash 64?
theprodigy
Member
well yeah, the main reason I don't like Melee L-Cancel is because there's never a reason not to do it
*Z-Canceling, get it right dude
and I never really got why the complaints centered around wavedashing of all things, someone who can 4-stock you while wavedashing will still 4-stock you without it
Agent Icebeezy
Welcome beautful toddler, Madison Elizabeth, to the horde!
I figured it out, I have to pair up while in the game, weird, but it works. happy gaming ahead.
well yeah, the main reason I don't like Melee L-Cancel is because there's never a reason not to do it
*Z-Canceling, get it right dude
There actually is very few instances where there's a reason not to do it, but I can't remember it off hand.
64's way of doing Z-Canceling was actually hilarious in a broken-fun way. Wouldn't mind that if they just want to go back to that and more the Marvel balancing-route and make everything overpowered.
And didn't see this part earlier...it's really not a big deal. Unintentional things are found in games ALL THE TIME, especially for a fighting game. It's impossible to figure out all the unintended consequences of a physics engine combined with different characters in a QA settting. If you're so upset about people doing these wacky techniques if they come up when Smash 4 comes out, why not just play against friends or someone your skill level? Nothing wrong with that. (Unless of course they fail at online features again and you can't make your own lobby and do this, lol)
And shoot, if they just do free for all, items only matches online again, better players will still beat you with "item bat drop cancels" and stuff using mechanics that are more well documented.
well yeah, the main reason I don't like Melee L-Cancel is because there's never a reason not to do it
*Z-Canceling, get it right dude
My french, excuse it.
theprodigy
Member
(Unless of course they fail at online features again and you can't make your own lobby and do this, lol)
And shoot, if they just do free for all, items only matches online again, better players will still beat you with "item bat drop cancels" and stuff using mechanics that are more well documented.
LOL
and I would laugh if Nintendo had a FFA items tournament only for M2K to read frame data for every single fucking item and clean house
Dion Blaster
Member
I really wish Project M just got rid of L-Canceling. It's such a pointless, tedious mechanic.
it was intended
and I assure you "unintended mechanics" should be the least of anyone's problems when sakurai is balancing characters like meta knight in the game
If someone is going to defend it, defend it right. I played competitive Brawl for many years, going to around 50 tournaments from locals to nationals. Random tripping happens to you 0-3 times a match, with 1 or 2 being the normal. When you randomly trip, there are tons of invincibility frames associated with each roll, only leaving you vulnerable near the end. This can help, hinder, or do nothing for you. I'll start with the most common:
Nothing: Random tripping in a competitive environment generally does nothing. Why? It's important to know the competitive defensive play of Brawl. When you approach in competitive Brawl, the general reaction is to shield attacks in order to punish or run away. There is almost never an advantage to try and be offensive when someone is running towards you. Thus, if you approach and trip, chances are you won't be phased. You'll trip, instantly press a direction, and get up unscathed because you shouldn't have been near them in the first place. There's no reason to dash if you're close in Brawl, as running through someone has no benefits and is easily punished, walking is a much better option as smash attacks can be used out of it. The only way this turns in to a problem is if you do something expected with your roll (Rolling away from the opponent is grounds for being tech chased) or you don't get straight up. The number of frames to get punished by holding up after randomly tripping is extremely small, I can't even think of a time I was hit during it. You can also use a get-up attack out of tripping, but it's not very useful as it has much fewer invincibility frames and is typically unsafe on shield.
Helps: The next common. How can tripping help you? Again, the invincibility frames. Trying to run away from Snake's weapons? You may trip through them and go unscathed, especially with a well timed get-up. Trying to get away from an opponent that is up close? You may trip through their surprise attack/grab and roll away. Almost never will you be hit out of a trip during competitive play. When it happens, the attacking player never has chance to react to it because it's absolutely unexpected. Random tripping helps out far more times than when it...
Hinders: The rarest. I can't remember a single time in all of my tournaments and practice for years where I've been totally hindered by a trip. There may be times where I took a random laser for 2% or got tech chased and took maybe 15%, but they were few and it never lead to death. Beyond a few cases in tournament play where it has lead to death (Always by the attackers accident), it has almost never caused problems in any of the hundreds of Brawl matches I watched. The window to punish is too small and your options to get out of it are typically fast enough or safe enough to be perfectly fine in the overly-defensive play of competitive Brawl.
So if random tripping helps more than it hinders, and does nothing far more than it helps, this leaves us with what? Random tripping is really not that bad. It's silly and fun to joke about mid-match, it can make you frustrated that you lost whatever setup you were trying to do, but it never really makes or breaks anything. The only reason it doesn't belong in Smash is because it is a randomized function that takes away control from the player for a second, which is fundamentally flawed. Other than that, it's not so bad.
tl;dr Tripping generally does nothing and helps far more than it hinders due to the defensive play of competitive Brawl.
Man...
Praise to you Project M team. Being able to play with anyone I want and have a fighting chance is fantastic. I love the mechanics on Zelda's fireball now where you can set mines and lead them into combos when they're stunned, Samus's ice, using the tranq gun with Snake has gotten me a lot of kills and I can't believe you guys even got it to reload and have ammo. Mewtwo's Pokemon Stadium Pokeball animation with the sound effect really made me happy to see, you guys do fanservice better than even Nintendo does. Simply amazing.
I didn't like Brawl, felt it was all flash and little substance, but this really has made me addicted to playing it with the mod on. You guys have fixed this game and turned it into something I adore now and I consider it the Smash Bros. sequel I was waiting for.
Praise to you Project M team. Being able to play with anyone I want and have a fighting chance is fantastic. I love the mechanics on Zelda's fireball now where you can set mines and lead them into combos when they're stunned, Samus's ice, using the tranq gun with Snake has gotten me a lot of kills and I can't believe you guys even got it to reload and have ammo. Mewtwo's Pokemon Stadium Pokeball animation with the sound effect really made me happy to see, you guys do fanservice better than even Nintendo does. Simply amazing.
I didn't like Brawl, felt it was all flash and little substance, but this really has made me addicted to playing it with the mod on. You guys have fixed this game and turned it into something I adore now and I consider it the Smash Bros. sequel I was waiting for.
Pretty much. You'll rather have to wait until the full version is released or import a NTSC copy of Brawl and mod your Wii to be region free.
fifasnipe2224
Member
So Turbo mode...."This new release includes "Turbo Mode" a game type which allows any character to interrupt moves once they have connected with an opponent. Chain attacks together to create Turbo speed combos limited only by your imagination and dexterity."
I am still a bit new to Project M. Can someone Explain This Like I am Five?
I am still a bit new to Project M. Can someone Explain This Like I am Five?
Holy Order Sol
Member
Why are we talking about intended/not intended again? What matters is the game you can actually play, not the game inside someone's head. If it's something else I can use to move around, then that makes it an additional movement option.
Frequency is irrelevant. You don't punish a player for controlling a character period.
Frequency is irrelevant. You don't punish a player for controlling a character period.
viewtiful_dru
Member
you have to ask the question then: if it does nothing, why include it to begin with?
it hurts momentum and sucks in casual play as well.
you should not be punished just for moving around.
it's inane and obtuse, and the intent for its inclusion is obvious.
sorry.
theprodigy
Member
DrROBschiz
Member
LOL
The Brawl/Melee debate is dumb and hating on the mod is just as dumb
EVERYONE should be celebrating the mods as they add some amazing work and content to a game that will not get any form of updates of DLC
This is unprecedented in the Console pace (yeah yeah PC guys been doing it forever) and best of all takes nothing away from the originals.
Most of the debate seems to be misplaced around the idea that one way of play is better than the other when in reality we should all be celebrating all the options that these awesome fan mods have given us
If there is a single strength that I love smash for its that there are so many different ways to play and enjoy it
Quit being a hater on both sides of the coin. Even if you prefer the brawl mechanics you cant help but smile at all the creativity on display here.
The Brawl/Melee debate is dumb and hating on the mod is just as dumb
EVERYONE should be celebrating the mods as they add some amazing work and content to a game that will not get any form of updates of DLC
This is unprecedented in the Console pace (yeah yeah PC guys been doing it forever) and best of all takes nothing away from the originals.
Most of the debate seems to be misplaced around the idea that one way of play is better than the other when in reality we should all be celebrating all the options that these awesome fan mods have given us
If there is a single strength that I love smash for its that there are so many different ways to play and enjoy it
Quit being a hater on both sides of the coin. Even if you prefer the brawl mechanics you cant help but smile at all the creativity on display here.