CrispyBoar
Banned
It goes to show that no one is immune to bad advertising, not even when you're the market leader.
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PS4 Pro Won't Support 4k BluRay
- Thread starter blastprocessor
- Start date
It goes to show that no one is immune to bad advertising, not even when you're the market leader.
Why advertise something that's been mostly sold out.
https://www.amazon.com/PlayStation-Slim-500GB-Console-Uncharted-Bundle/dp/B01LOP8EZC/ref=zg_bs_videogames_6?_encoding=UTF8&refRID=0096BRBKVFX91Z22GAX1&th=1
nekkid
It doesn't matter who we are, what matters is our plan.
There is no specific mandate to make games 4K, but it is being heavily pushed for Scorpio, and you can be certain that first party titles will have to go that way.
They were raked over the coals wrt resolution, and their response is to go in completely the opposite direction, which I feel will be to the detriment of their games.
Marty Chinn
Member
Eh? Doing a quick search shows its readily available at Target and Best Buy both online and in store.
It's important because enthusiasts always cause new gaming tech to sell out, but it's crucial to inform people who don't follow the gaming press about your products in order to keep the momentum going once the initial rush of sales slows down.
Ben Heck has now released a PS4 Pro teardown.
Ben Heck's PS4 Pro Teardown
The only really interesting thing there for me is that the PS4 Pro uses an identical blu-ray drive to the slim version of the PS4, which to me at least, would probably account for the lack of 4K blu-ray support. They simply wouldn't want the additional expenditure of having to purchase two separate drives for the two consoles that they'll continue to sell. The two blu-ray drives even have identical enclosures so it is essentially a single unit which could save them millions in having to set up two separate production runs for the drive bay in both console.
It's a little different with Microsoft as they currently only have a single console to produce as the older version is no longer in production. I wouldn't be too surprised to see them doing what Sony is doing and sharing as many parts between the two consoles to reduce the costs to them as much as they can.
Of course, there would have also been the option for Sony to have identical 4K blu-ray drives in the two devices to save costs but I do wonder if what they're using now is the same one they were using in earlier builds of the PS4?
Ben Heck's PS4 Pro Teardown
The only really interesting thing there for me is that the PS4 Pro uses an identical blu-ray drive to the slim version of the PS4, which to me at least, would probably account for the lack of 4K blu-ray support. They simply wouldn't want the additional expenditure of having to purchase two separate drives for the two consoles that they'll continue to sell. The two blu-ray drives even have identical enclosures so it is essentially a single unit which could save them millions in having to set up two separate production runs for the drive bay in both console.
It's a little different with Microsoft as they currently only have a single console to produce as the older version is no longer in production. I wouldn't be too surprised to see them doing what Sony is doing and sharing as many parts between the two consoles to reduce the costs to them as much as they can.
Of course, there would have also been the option for Sony to have identical 4K blu-ray drives in the two devices to save costs but I do wonder if what they're using now is the same one they were using in earlier builds of the PS4?
Increasing the BOM of the $250 model too?
SolidusDave
Member
Yeah, any cost factors for both having UHD etc. are irrelevant when even the $300 XB1s model has it.
However, as the performance/graphics increase is so small with the pro I can see them not wanting the PS4slim to be able to play any 4K media.
Giving only the Pro the UHD drive would have increased the costs more than giving both of them the upgrade, apparently.
I'm still surprised they allow HDR on OG PS4s and slims. That's a bigger graphical boost than anything the Pro does in addition, but I guess they count on people being misinformed and only connecting 4K TVs with PS4pro.
By now I would even be willing to bet it was simply easier for them to integrate HDR into the OS if they don't have to split up firmwares or game mastering or whatever.
Head.spawn
Junior Member
MS's $250 model managed to make that happen.
And on that note, can we kill this thread already? I think every possible angle has been argued 10x both ways... it's just the reality now though, the consoles are out and are missing the feature. What more can we possibly squeeze from the topic?
Because MS is desperate for any edge, and they have other strategic imperatives. Quite frankly, I don't understand what their strategic goals are at this point. Are they making an all-in-one entertainment box or a gaming console? Are they focussing on Xbox HW or Windows ecosystem? Are they aiming at install base, profit margin or lifetime value of customer?
I believe MS is losing money for every console sold.
Caayn
Member
The XB1 S costs was $324.07 at time of announcement for the 2TB configuration. Of which $88.50 for the HDD and OSD (UHD-BD). The HDD alone costs north of $105,- if you want to buy one as a consumer so the UHD-BD can't be much of the $88.50 budget for the storage.
Gemüsepizza
Member
I wouldn't be suprised if Sony will release a PS4 Pro with UHD Blu-ray support when Scorpio launches, similar to what Microsoft did with the Xbox One S.
My dad decided not to buy it because it doesn't support 4K bluray. His hope was to buy it to game while replacing his current 4K bluray player in his media setup
He is now waiting for Scorpio.
I think Sony really misunderstood the market a "pro" console is for where they didn't include it.
For shame, really.
As for "why market something that's sold out", its readily available in store at my local Walmart, target, shopko, and Best Buy. Has been since release. Some online retailers had it sold out for a bit, as did some local retailers, but it's really not hard to get one anymore. Most online stores have it in stock right now.
It's not selling out, and it's not doing good numbers. I think this oversight is a large reason why.
He is now waiting for Scorpio.
I think Sony really misunderstood the market a "pro" console is for where they didn't include it.
For shame, really.
As for "why market something that's sold out", its readily available in store at my local Walmart, target, shopko, and Best Buy. Has been since release. Some online retailers had it sold out for a bit, as did some local retailers, but it's really not hard to get one anymore. Most online stores have it in stock right now.
It's not selling out, and it's not doing good numbers. I think this oversight is a large reason why.
SolidusDave
Member
I don't know if this has changed by now but I also remember that in addition the PS4 is actually cheaper to produce than the XB1, because their RAM solution only gets cheaper vs the eDRAM stuff from MS.
Head.spawn
Junior Member
Yeah, supposedly the ESRAM ate up a lot of space and therefore cost. IIRC, even though PS4 was more powerful, the Xbox One APU actually cost more because of this if reports were accurate.
unapersson
Member
Gemüsepizza;227246995 said:
I think they're more likely to wait for the PS5, it wouldn't be worth the confusion. At the moment if a disk is compatible with one PS4 then it is compatible with all of them.
By the time the PS5 comes out UHD Blu-ray will either be well established or will have petered out. They'd be able to use the disks for extra storage in games as well as for video, though it doesn't seem to be a significant storage bump over Blu-ray.
Gemüsepizza;227246995 said:
Is that really comparable? Both companies do the slim thing, and the S is so much more advanced than the PS4 slim comparably I don't think Microsoft was answering anyone. They released a slightly beefier system that runs games better than their og Xbox One with 4K media support. The slim for PS4 is basically just a smaller PS4.
They can throw a UHD player in there when Scorpio launches, but by then they lose any and all market advantage they had. Scorpio will be launching probably at $400, its significantly more powerful and all of them will support full 4K gaming and media playback. PS4 pro may add t in, but not evey PS4 pro will have it, causing more market confusion.
Bottom line, Sony has positioned themselves in a very odd place with the Pro and there really isn't any going back from it now.
Panajev2001a
GAF's Pleasant Genius
I think that both Apple and Sony are taking a curious definition of what Pro means... see developers and art professionals not so in love that Apple went the super extra thin approach either this year's MBP and thus lost battery and RAM upgrade potential (smaller battery and system peaking at 16 GB of RAM are not very Pro like things).
Theonik
Member
That's just the BOM and is an estimate, MS's rates could be even lower but that matters not because MS still needs to manufacture and ship these things.
For the lower capacity machines MS is probably taking a significant hit per unit.
The extra cost on the drive alone translates in possibly more than $150m in lost profit for Sony over the life of the device.
MS Xbox One S is a weaker console using 12 (14) Compute Units & using GDDR3. They also needed the value added to the console & they are giving you download codes of the included games while PS4 Slim come with a disc, So you can't just say MS did it so Sony could have done it for the same price,
It is using ddr3, not gddr3. How that relates to cost is probably also your very own secret.
On top of that the difference in costs for a uhd laser diode and a regular blue ray diode is probably dollars at most.
My guess is that Sony wanted to have UHD capabilities. But as we all know they were late as hell in manufacturing their own standalone uhd players which they just announced last september and arent due until 2017. And sony being sony didnt want to outsource that part so they decided to just not include it.
It's GDDR3 & of course it relates to cost, what kinda post is this?
16 x Samsung SEC 549 K4W4G1646E-BC1A 4 Gb (512 MB) "gDDR3" SDRAM (total of 16 x 512 MB = 8 GB)
hmm
PeterLegend
Member
If Scorpio costs $399 then Sony might have a problem on their hands.
If it's $499 then Sony will be happy lol.
If it's $499 then Sony will be happy lol.
Theonik
Member
From that same article they estimate a non UHD BD drive costs $18 per unit vs $33.50 for UHD so that's $15.50 per unit.
Sony will probably ship a minimum of 10m slim and PS4 Pro units. This is a LOAD of money. Then again these are estimates. The actual costs will vary.
Im not sure I believe that. It would mean the laser diode is double the price of a regular one. Maybe they compared a regular 2x blu ray drive(used in PS3) to a 6x UHD drive. But PS4 will use a 6x drive regardless.
It's not even as simple as just making a guess on the BOM. The Slim and the Pro both using the same Bluray drive is a big cost saving due to economies of scale that's almost impossible to estimate from outside.
I would hope that nobody wants to seriously argue that the Slim should have had UHD Bluray.
I would hope that nobody wants to seriously argue that the Slim should have had UHD Bluray.
Head.spawn
Junior Member
I thought it was the case that the Xbox One APU actually cost more without regard to power due to ESRAM making it more costly to produce, while also slower to reduce price over time in comparison and that PS4s APU would get cheaper faster still. Is/was that not the case?
I'm just going by what i recall from three years ago, so i could be remembering wrong.
Theonik
Member
New diodes that are currently very scarce, different focus, new software. The cost will go down over time and getting it on the PS4 would help a lot with that. But currently it's a niche technology so the economies of scale just aren't there.
e:
I mean MS can sell it at $250 on firesales with dubious profits so there is an argument to be made there. A very silly argument.
A big issue is also that of course it would confuse consumers even more.
They both had trade-offs to reach their goals & MS probably had more wiggle room after removing the Kinect port & other stuff while changing to GDDR3 vs Sony removing optical out & other stuff while sticking with GDDR5 & using a better wifi radio.
MS also is probably more welling to take a hit to gain some market share at this point.
Indeed! Two companies in two very different positions and very different priorities.
Any savings Sony can make on hardware they're going to do it, they're done making a loss on hardware. They don't need the value add of a UHD Bluray player, the Slim is already more powerful than the One S. The PS4 doesn't have a HDMI in and DVR functionalities either (this and Skype using Kinect was supposed to elevate the Xbox One over the PS4 according to some back in 2013!), they've sold over 50m of them entirely on the strength of it as a gaming console and no amount of moaning about a fringe use case (because that's what UHD Bluray on console is) will change that they will sell another 50m+ of them on that strength too.
SolidusDave
Member
Why the hell shouldn't the slim have it, apart from them wanting to market the pro as a 4k console (even as half-assed as they did).
But your cost point still stands. Basically it didn't really matter cost-wise if they put either a UHD or normal drive in as long as both the pro and slim get the same drive. I guess they rather crippled their "pro" device instead of boosting the low end one they don't want anyone to buy anyway because of lower profit margins.
btw I still don't buy the theory that the PS division is looking out for the division creating the Sony UHD player btw. Surely sony as a company would gain more from higher sony pictures UHD disc sales than the pocket change from selling a handful of players.
Nobody should buy that theory because it's really stupid (their player isn't out until Spring next year)! Kaz Hirai is the Sony CEO now and the shackles are off the PlayStation business; Sony aren't going to prop up their other businesses at the expense of PlayStation, the PlayStation comes first now.
SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
lol you guys arent going to be $30 4k blurays just to watch one movie. this is a silly decision not to include it, but lets not pretend we were all going to spend half a video game's price to buy a 2 hour movie.
by the time 4k movies start showing up at redbox it will be 2018-2019 and sony would have revisions out for the pro already.
by the time 4k movies start showing up at redbox it will be 2018-2019 and sony would have revisions out for the pro already.
I'm fairly certain those who make this argument have never seen 4K Blu-ray. The upgrade over 4K streaming is far more significant than a 1080p Blu-ray over a 1080p stream.
Theonik
Member
I would. But I generally think games are too cheap. I'm also in the UK where my expectation is to grab any of these for half price or less within a month. It's just a better way of experiencing film.
Marty Chinn
Member
Eh? You don't have to spend $30 a movie. The prices are dropping already. Remember, DVD and Blu rays were $40 MSRP when they first came out and now they're pennies. You can easily get movies under $20 and the format isn't very old. Hanging on the $30 price tag is both short sighted and misguided. Plus the digital versions cost the same amount.
therealbigrich
Member
Pretty much true . I actually picked up the revenant and the Martian movies for 10 a piece from target during the holidays
styl3s
Member
I bought 9 4K movies for around $20 a pop thanks to best buys buy 3 save $20 and got Hunger Games 1-3 for $13 each, Martian for $10 and Revenant for $10. Factor in the $40 i made back from selling the digital codes i spent i would say i came out pretty fucking good.
Prices and deals are constantly happening and it's a new medium we are still in that early adopter phase you will start seeing new releases at $20 next year. Shit, normal blu-rays MRSP for $30+ that means nothing. I actually spent more on blu-rays when they first came out then i am for 4k blu-ray.
Dredd97
Member
must be nice to pay so little for 4k bluray...
Exactly. Sony does not need to appeal to the niche complaining about lack of 4K BluRay support. They may have lost a couple of hundred sales, but that's peanuts in the big picture.
If Sony cares about selling UHD discs, does it matter if people are watching them on their Sony branded player or something else? And considering the SCEI bottom line: why sell every single PS4 for lower margin just to push a handful of consoles more?
StudioTan
Hold on, friend! I'd love to share with you some swell news about the Windows 8 Metro UI! Wait, where are you going?
The PS4 Pro is already catering to a niche.
Lets see: Selling UHD Blu-rays to the install base that has UHD Blu-ray players or selling stream-able /download-able 4K movies to a install base that include Windows 10 laptops , 4K TVS , 4K media sticks/boxes , PS4 Pro , Xbox One S & UHD Blu-ray players?
Mahnmut
Member
I don't understand it either. Sometimes, fanboyism in not far away from stupidity.
SolidusDave
Member
whynotboth.gif
But as you point out so nicely, streaming is available without having to invest into an additional platform. That also means you don't increase that share by NOT offering UHD on PS4pro. However, if you make it harder for people to get into UHD in the first place, then you will lose out sales on the disc market.
and you also completely drive out the people caring about image quality from the Sony ecosystem.