A2una1
Member
There are people out there spending 240 bucks for controllers with little plastic buttons on the back...
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PS5 Pro developer verdict: ‘I didn’t meet a single person that understood the point of it’
- Thread starter Roxkis_ii
- Start date
Generic
Member
The PS4 Pro was $400. The PS5 Pro will be probably $600.
Orutisu Furio
Member
This current generation has barely started. COVID and the hysteria in 2020 knocked the wind out of a lot of games in development and set back plans for a few years for the industry.
Neither XBOX Series X or PS5 have been pushed to their limits. Most games releasing these days still look like PS4 ports.
Neither XBOX Series X or PS5 have been pushed to their limits. Most games releasing these days still look like PS4 ports.
Boneless
Member
+1, and as a PS5 owner it feels greedy. Playstation is sinking deeper and deeper.
KXVXII9X
Member
No, I really haven't. Visuals aren't the only thing that matter. While Zelda BotW and TotK look similar, TotK has added both a Sky and underground map that you can seamlessly traverse. It also has a lot of added physics and some new mechanics.
rofif
Can’t Git Gud
Yep that’s all true. Somehow feels like this gen barely strayed and devs didn’t really had to focus on tightening and optimizing as they are not forced to yet.
Stellar blade will save this gen. Next month!
FIREKNIGHT2029
Member
Yes, I paid $2000 for the 4090 alone in my PC. $500 is nothing for me especially when I'll be trading my PS5 in for a Pro.
rofif
Can’t Git Gud
Exactly
kikonawa
Member
and 24fps is enough
James Sawyer Ford
Member
What is greedy about giving their consumers more choice?
magnumpy
Member
I'm surprised to see many people complain about sub-60FPS gameplay, yet at the same time a console with superior performance (to any degree) is demonized. both those things cannot be true at the same time...
it's an entirely optional upgrade. if you don't like it, fine then just don't buy it. problem solved!
it's an entirely optional upgrade. if you don't like it, fine then just don't buy it. problem solved!
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aclar00
Member
How was it supported? I rocked the OG launch unit the entire gen, sobdidnt follow it exactly.
DrFigs
Member
People want devs to try harder. fair. but also they're not so... i don't see what the downside of this optional upgrade is for the consumer.I'm surprised too see many people complain about sub-60FPS gameplay, yet at the same time a console with superior performance (to any degree) is demonized. both those things cannot be true at the same time...
it's an entirely optional upgrade. if you don't like it, fine then just don't buy it. problem solved!
DrFigs
Member
Yeah but which devs is he talking to? Housemarque that released a 1080p ps5 exclusive? Rise of Ronin devs who released a ps5 exclusive that looks last gen and constantly has framerate dips? ff7 rebirth devs? or maybe its Dragon's Dogma 2 devs. the list goes on... these are all good games, but they all have their issues based on performance and/or graphics. why not have stronger consoles to alleviate those issues for people who care about it.
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DonJimbo
Member
It was better to release a strong Console from the beginning instead of a midgen refresh to milk Gamers last time it was necessary to release a 4k Capable Console but this time whats the reason
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Radical_3d
Member
A 4K 60 capable console. Also the tech wasn’t there. PS5 was very forward looking but it’s been 4 years. Those in my times where enough for a generational leap.
Mibu no ookami
Demoted Member® Pro™
Everything here.
I don't know how anyone can argue against what you're saying here.
Add to that that Sony's investment in PSSR, I think will likely define their next systems: PS6, a PlayStation handheld, and PSVR3.
As you mentioned it could significantly improve PSVR2 games, but I can only imagine what upscaling Sony has in mind for PSVR3, Cloud gaming, and handheld gaming.
Getting a handle on this technology first via a mid gen refresh makes a ton of sense. Maybe I'm pinning my hopes too high on PSSR implementation but I really do think it could have a large impact on what kind of handheld we get, which could in turn change the games we get even on the base PS5.
The lessons and telemetry Sony gains from the PS5 Pro will help determine the direction of the PS6 and many other devices from Sony. I'm sure the telemetry from the PS4 Pro and PS5 have helped determine the direction of the PS5 Pro.
Sony almost certainly knows exactly the breakdown of users playing in performance mode vs fidelity mode on games. They also know the percentage of games that are GPU-constrained vs CPU-constrained.
All of this played into making the most cost-efficient decisions in trying to build better gaming systems.
sachos
Member
‘I’ll be honest, I didn’t meet a single person that understood the point of it.’ ‘Developers didn’t seem to feel they needed it’. This is the only actual info we've got from this article. We do not know how many devs he interviewed, what company they belong to, their technical expertise (artists or graphic programmers?). Maybe they don't see the point in it because they are building smaller games that run fine on the base machine.
‘They weren’t really making the most of the PS5 in the first place,’ he added. ‘This generation doesn’t even seem to have got started, let alone needs a mid-generation upgrade,’ he concluded. Both these quotes seems to be just his opinion, not the devs. Even if the first one is the devs saying it, we don't know if it is about there being much power to unlock from the base model or if they just aren't building AAA level games with it.
Dring also added that, ‘A couple of companies said: ‘This isn’t going to grow the market. This isn’t going to move the needle.’ These are publishers opinions, not devs. I particularly don't care if it moves the needle for publishers.
‘They weren’t really making the most of the PS5 in the first place,’ he added. ‘This generation doesn’t even seem to have got started, let alone needs a mid-generation upgrade,’ he concluded. Both these quotes seems to be just his opinion, not the devs. Even if the first one is the devs saying it, we don't know if it is about there being much power to unlock from the base model or if they just aren't building AAA level games with it.
Dring also added that, ‘A couple of companies said: ‘This isn’t going to grow the market. This isn’t going to move the needle.’ These are publishers opinions, not devs. I particularly don't care if it moves the needle for publishers.
AmuroChan
Member
From those comments, I would infer those devs are indie devs if they're not fully utilizing the PS5's power? So many AAA games have struggled to run at 60fps without making concessions. I find it hard to believe that it is because the devs don't know how to program for the PS5.
Mibu no ookami
Demoted Member® Pro™
A lot of this comes down to demand and price. Impossible for a random publisher or developer to ascertain what the market for this is or what its presence on the market can accomplish in terms of growing the market.
- I plan to buy this day 1 and trade in my current PS5.
- That means my PS5 will be sold as used.
- Note that I also bought black plates for this thing. The new PS5 Pro will probably be released in white and have new black plates, which I will once again purchase.
- Someone will buy my used PS5 who can't afford a PS5 at current prices.
- Sony may also drop the price of the PS5 and the Pro might take over at 500 dollars.
They'll likely sell this without a disc drive meaning if someone does buy a disc drive with it, that's another 80+ bucks.
As I continue to buy software probably at a greater rate now and the new person who owns my PS5 buys software, that could in fact move the needle. It'll certainly help Sony's margins, which will result in additional R&D towards projects.
Boneless
Member
You clearly did not read the OP.
AmuroChan
Member
Also, what does moving the needle mean exactly?
diffusionx
Gold Member
I didn't see anyone complain about Returnal's graphics until DF told them it was 1080p. Based on specs, the PS5 Pro could do the game at 1440p, maybe that 1700p range that was common on PS4 Pro. So I think it's reasonable to say that going from one sub-native resolution to another sub-native resolution is kind of pointless, especially since even a $1600 GPU leans heavily on sub-native.
StreetsofBeige
Gold Member
Video games.
The only industry n the world where customers dont want other customers to have options. "Everyone should have exactly the same system as me"
The only industry n the world where customers dont want other customers to have options. "Everyone should have exactly the same system as me"
James Sawyer Ford
Member
You clearly seem extremely bitter
Tqaulity
Member
True that wouldn't be a worthwhile upgrade, except the Pro is offering more than just pushing a few more pixels. Everyone loves getting caught up in all the numbers of TFLOPs and Ps etc but that misses the point. In the case of Returnal, the Pro could take the existing 1080p output and greatly enhance the IQ making it look pretty close to native 4K while also adding the Ray Tracing effects from the PC version. So the existing 1080p/60 internal resolution goes to possibly ~1440p/60 internal then using PSSR (quality) to reconstruct a 4K/60 with RT that will look way better than the current base version. That's a meaningful upgrade. Further, if they chose to, they could probably push a 120fps perf mode using the same settings as the existing game along with PSSR with IQ that looks better than the current game.
It's really not just about pixel counts and TFLOPs. It's the sum of all the parts
lh032
I cry about Xbox and hate PlayStation.
i think its unfair to compare ps4 pro with ps5 pro.
We receive alot more 60fps games this gen compared to the ps4.
I think the GPU upgrade on the PS5 pro is going to improve the experience here.
Oddvintagechap
Member
If youre a developer that hasn’t been able to use PS5 at it’s fullest, I really don’t care about your opinion.
Matsuchezz
Member
Fucking PS5 have already moved the needle where it wanted it to be. It's funny how all these people that do not see a need for the PRO are trying to discourage other people into buying it by explaining to us how the bump is non existent and whatever they can come up to try to move the needle against we buying the pro.
I am just waiting for the announcement for price and release the date.
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Feel Like I'm On 42
Member
But they didn't do that with PS5 and now a mid gen refresh is needed to give us the type of next gen experience and performance we should've had all along. We didn't even get a machine capable of delivering cross gen games at next gen settings- a few cases are: Cyberpunk 2077 with no RT reflections or gi, let alone at 60 fps; Control Ultimate without the rt gi and reflections that make it look great on PC; Dying Light 2 without rt gi and a lame fsr2'd 60 fps mode that only goes to 1260p AFTER upscaling.
We can try to blame it on the developers but the truth is if the PS5 had a more powerful gpu at launch we would've had these features. Esp in the case of these games as they spent a lot of time on these next gen updates and have been updated multiple times to try to improve resolution/performance. Sony probably should've focused less on the io and more on a beefier GPU.
To be frank, I don't care what developers think, or for that matter journalists, who've shown a distinct lack of insight into the industry and consumer motivations. Many devs have failed to get the most out of current hardware, equally current hardware is underpowered for the the most ambitious AAA titles. Both things can be true at once.
I'm sure many devs are quite content to use 80-90% of these consoles potential, fall back on sub-optimal solutions like Quality & Performance modes, and use poor tools like FSR. As a consumer I want better, and just like PC owners brute forcing games, I want the option to do this by getting Quality mode graphics, with Performance mode FPS. I also want to see devs utilising technology like RT and AI upscaling to give console players an experience on par with high-end PC gaming.
From Sony's perspective the PS5 Pro doesn't exist to expand the market - although by it's very nature it will appeal to new consumers looking for a high-end console experience - while expanding the 2nd hand market with a cheaper entry option. Both of which will increase Sony's stranglehold on the console eco-system. An added benefit is this will put a final nail in the coffin for Xbox hardware - as tech oriented console buyers move to PS5 Pro - rather than the minefield that is PC gaming.
I look forward to the inevitable wave of articles 'concerned' about the cost of PS5 Pro - followed by indignation & surprise as pre-orders sell-out and gamers are paying above RRP to get their hands on one.
The biggest benefits will not come from a stronger GPU - rather the RT hardware, tools and AI technology. If Sony had doubled down on these things with PS5 they'd have been sub-par and the system unaffordable - much like early NVidia RTX cards which came in for much criticism. A mid-gen upgrade gives us a refined experience at an affordable price - more so for those of us trading in PS5 for Pro. It's a no brainer upgrade for anyone interested in high-end console gaming.
I'm sure many devs are quite content to use 80-90% of these consoles potential, fall back on sub-optimal solutions like Quality & Performance modes, and use poor tools like FSR. As a consumer I want better, and just like PC owners brute forcing games, I want the option to do this by getting Quality mode graphics, with Performance mode FPS. I also want to see devs utilising technology like RT and AI upscaling to give console players an experience on par with high-end PC gaming.
From Sony's perspective the PS5 Pro doesn't exist to expand the market - although by it's very nature it will appeal to new consumers looking for a high-end console experience - while expanding the 2nd hand market with a cheaper entry option. Both of which will increase Sony's stranglehold on the console eco-system. An added benefit is this will put a final nail in the coffin for Xbox hardware - as tech oriented console buyers move to PS5 Pro - rather than the minefield that is PC gaming.
I look forward to the inevitable wave of articles 'concerned' about the cost of PS5 Pro - followed by indignation & surprise as pre-orders sell-out and gamers are paying above RRP to get their hands on one.
The biggest benefits will not come from a stronger GPU - rather the RT hardware, tools and AI technology. If Sony had doubled down on these things with PS5 they'd have been sub-par and the system unaffordable - much like early NVidia RTX cards which came in for much criticism. A mid-gen upgrade gives us a refined experience at an affordable price - more so for those of us trading in PS5 for Pro. It's a no brainer upgrade for anyone interested in high-end console gaming.
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Clear
CliffyB's Cock Holster
Also, an observation obvious to the point of redundancy: If the devs they were talking to were openly admitting, "don't get the most out of PS5". Who the fuck were they talking to, exactly?
What is that supposed to mean? Apart from the obvious negative spin angle I mean.
Here's the thing; While, yes, there is an argument to say that it takes at least 2 production cycles on a platform to really benefit from all the learnings, having a more powerful version of the same certainly isn't going to be harmful to the end product. Even if all they do is have a bit of extra performance ceiling, better quality upscaling etc. Its still not going to be the most powerful hardware around! So for the most part its only going to be getting some of the stuff provisioned for the PC build -like extra RT.
Its more work for QA and some parts of the team, for the majority of staff its not really going to impact them. From a front-facing perspective its an additional offer that is guaranteed to become the default source for PR purposes, because even if there are few substantive differences between builds, its always going to show better.
From a perception standpoint it also kicks out Series X last supporting USP as a competitor, more potential power.
Bottom line: Its not the most compelling offer on its face. But you'd have to be pretty obtuse not to see what utility and appeal it offers, which is why I'm questioning the reaction.
What is that supposed to mean? Apart from the obvious negative spin angle I mean.
Here's the thing; While, yes, there is an argument to say that it takes at least 2 production cycles on a platform to really benefit from all the learnings, having a more powerful version of the same certainly isn't going to be harmful to the end product. Even if all they do is have a bit of extra performance ceiling, better quality upscaling etc. Its still not going to be the most powerful hardware around! So for the most part its only going to be getting some of the stuff provisioned for the PC build -like extra RT.
Its more work for QA and some parts of the team, for the majority of staff its not really going to impact them. From a front-facing perspective its an additional offer that is guaranteed to become the default source for PR purposes, because even if there are few substantive differences between builds, its always going to show better.
From a perception standpoint it also kicks out Series X last supporting USP as a competitor, more potential power.
Bottom line: Its not the most compelling offer on its face. But you'd have to be pretty obtuse not to see what utility and appeal it offers, which is why I'm questioning the reaction.
I think the main point trying to get across is they JUST started releasing games to ps5 only. If you look at the 1st uncharted vs last of us. Same console and one looks waaaaay better.
It takes time to figure out how to get the most out of hardware. So already coming out with something better is going to be more brute forcing stuff rather than optimizing.
It takes time to figure out how to get the most out of hardware. So already coming out with something better is going to be more brute forcing stuff rather than optimizing.
Feel Like I'm On 42
Member
It is strange to see how vehemently against it people are all because they didn't plan to upgrade their Ps5 and don't want to feel like they're going to get an "inferior" experience even though they'll be getting the same experience they always would've gotten. Ps5 pro changes nothing for them.
Studies show that our psychology is to feel worse to get second place in a competition than if you got the bronze medal because the person in second place was closer to winning first. Similar phenomenon here ..or something like that
Gamerguy84
Member
PS4 to PS5 was a massive jump in every way. I couldn't go back to PS4 games for the loading alone.
I also enjoyed the bump PS4 PRO gave us. It was my first 4K anyway.
PS5 has some very nice looking games but I don't want to wait to see what PSSR is about and the bump it gives.
I also enjoyed the bump PS4 PRO gave us. It was my first 4K anyway.
PS5 has some very nice looking games but I don't want to wait to see what PSSR is about and the bump it gives.
I have no problem with how many games look already.
I do have big problems with the options devs give us to choose between Quality & Performance modes.
Given that's the route the industry has gone down - I want hardware that can deliver both. To the point where I'm actively avoiding most new AAA titles to experience them first on PS5 Pro.
This is why the CPU complaints are such a red herring. The great majority of titles already have 60-120FPS modes. But we suffer with horrendous image quality that's often worse than high-end PS4 titles.
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Mibu no ookami
Demoted Member® Pro™
It's a vague statement made to easily justify being right after the fact. It's also a strawman.
It's not called a PS6 nor will it be marketed as a PS6.
Will it sell 100 million units? No. So it's a failure, because apparently we're talking about not moving the needle but entirely displacing it.
Even the term move the needle itself actually means a notable change, but does not necessarily suggest a seismic change.
There are disingenuous arguments around PS5 Pro from all corners of the industry.
- Xbox and PCMR fans who are threatened by it
- Developers who are lazy
- Media outlets that gain from the console war
- People who don't understand the gains Sony is trying to make in performance
Let's focus on the latter.
What percent of games would improve from increased CPU? 10 percent? Probably closer to 5% or even less. Where as nearly 100% of games can be improved with additional GPU, RTX, AI upscaling, and a slight bump in CPU.
When Sony developed the PS5 they developed it to have the least amount of bottlenecks possible for the money. Experts such as DF scoffed at Cerny when he discussed the design philosophy of the PS5. Til this day DF refused to understand why games run better on the Ps5 in many instances than the XSX.
Sony has now designed the PS5 Pro to enhance the most games at the largest margins at the smallest cost...
If the PS5 Pro launches for 500 dollars without a disc drive, yes, it's going to move the needle. If PSSR is a substantial improvement and comparative to DLSS, yes it's going to move the needle.
You can trade in a PS5 for 325 (store credit at gamestop) meaning that it would only cost you 175 dollars to upgrade your PS5 to the Pro if it launches at 500. That's really not bad. People will pay 100+ just for storage or 200 for just a dual sense edge, but 175 isn't worth better framerates, resolutions, and ray tracing?
For those who were disappointed in the CPU improvements, ask yourselves how much more expensive a CPU would the PlayStation need in order to achieve the results you're looking for on CPU strained games? And how many of these games would be improved by that.
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Trilobit
Gold Member
Yeah, I'm perfectly fine with this gen lasting several more years. I just feel like if they introduce the PS6 too soon we'll be getting longer and longer development times. Eventually games will cost 150USD and companies will only be able to produce one game per gen as the demands for 20K TVs with 1000fps will require insanely data-heavy games. Only Nintendo and indies will produce plenty of games with simpler graphics.
TheShocker
Member
Honestly I hope neither console gets a pro model. We’ve barely gotten a chance to see what generation exclusives can do. Cross-gen games need to die. These companies wonder why consoles aren’t selling right now…
Xaeroxcore666
Member
Even devs agree PS5 PRO is absolutely nonsense. First push the original model!! But Sony looks like they just receive feedback from the "Day One" and "You will need a PS5 Pro for GTA VI" retarded gang.
pretty clear that the disingenuous fuds are mostly driven by platform warz nonsense. on par with each and every playstation launch
no other way anyone can be dumb enough wildy swing from "gen hasnt started" to "we needed next gen cpu" type of arguments within same sentence.
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Radical_3d
Member
Rayderism
Member
What I've heard nothing about is any sort of expanded BC for the 5Pro. I don't mean PS1 or PS2 so much, but we really need a modern way to play our PS3 games. Knowing Sony, they'll likely gimp the PS4 BC that's already in the base5 rather than expand any BC capabilities with the pro. 
Gameplay Gods Bless
Member
Yeap. These devs are butthurt they are now gonna need to support a Pro version of their games and big daddy EA and Ubisoft aren't gonna pay them a cent for the extra work. Maybe get a job at company that respects you.