PS5 vs PS5 Pro Early Graphics Comparison- Hogwarts Legacy / Spider-Man 2/The Last of Us 2 Remastered
- Thread starter IbizaPocholo
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Ronin_7
Member
I know it's a GPU upgrade mate.
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Yes 10% and how much more CPU overhead is needed for RT do you believe on consoles? They specifically showed reflections in GT7 in game, not GI. They can run the performance profiles for games and know better what is required than you or I.
bundylove
Banned
You're welcome.
Enjoy the trip
sachos
Member
You guys are missing the point. Its not just "700 for slightly crispier image" its a better Fidelity mode while at the same time doubling the FPS. Its literally a 100%+ upgrade. Thats why on the reveal stream they compared to the original 60FPS mode to get a sense of the upgrade.
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kevboard
Member
the way he described the reflections in GT7 was curious tho.
he said "reflections between cars" a very curious thing to say.
and which sounds to me like the limited RT reflections Forza uses, where only a small bubble around the car is being reflected with RT, while distant detail uses a realtime sphere map, which adds "reflections between cars" but not much more
until we see in detail how these RT reflections compare to the ones they use in replays and photo mode it's not an indicator of how demanding on the CPU these are.
the smaller the reflection radius, the smaller the BVH needs to be, and the less off-screen elements need to be drawn.
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TintoConCasera
I bought a sex doll, but I keep it inflated 100% of the time and use it like a regular wife
I wish for a world in which the graphics race has ended and developers focus more on gameplay and fun.
Mr Moose
Gold Member
This is all I've seen about it (from CNET article).
Little Mac
Member
Getting it down to 40 fps is a big plus imo! I'm surprised it's not getting mentioned more.
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Azelover
Titanic was called the Ship of Dreams, and it was. It really was.
Yeah, I was thinking the same thing. I was gonna propose that we go back to a gameplay focus like the Wii. But I was afraid to have my head cut off.
What you said is definitely gonna happen. And it's gonna happen soon..
kevboard
Member
sadly, that's not gonna happen. casuals are the biggest market now, and casuals can be more easily WOWed by pretty screenshots and trailers than with cool gameplay and gamedesign concepts.
TintoConCasera
I bought a sex doll, but I keep it inflated 100% of the time and use it like a regular wife
That's true and I agree with that, there's nothing like a good looking trailer in order to sell your game.
I have faith tho. I've seen zoomers on the internet going to check on retro games because of how pissed they are about most modern games being lame and being surprised at how fun and complex those old games can be. The change might not happen any time soon, but I think there's a chance.
kevboard
Member
my prediction is that eventually it needs to happen due to the reality of diminishing returns.
we basically first need to reach a point where developers quite literally can not improve graphics anymore beyond resolution and framerates.
that point probably will be reached once Raytracing runs well in all games
until that limit is fully reached I think we will continue to see a push for pretty screenshots.
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Alebrije
Member
Enought of graphics comparison, at this moment people has decided and the ones that Will get the PRO have their reasons and the ones that no theirs. We have very few sources for comparisons so no new You Tuber video Will move the needle.
Only new footage from Sony and people watching on real time the screen Will do something to make them jump.
Only new footage from Sony and people watching on real time the screen Will do something to make them jump.
Physiognomonics
Member
I wouldn't hold my breath on his statement judged by how he was wrong on PSSR been applied without a patch. I think Sony and Cerny don't care about VRR as long as the market doesn't care overall, which is still the case.
RetroGamingUK
Member
Wasn't aware they were giving away the base PS5 for free now.
On PC.
Anyway - yes it's youtube but the difference in RT reflection resolution here(low-motion camera shot too, so no motion-blur/compression excuse) is at least 4:1:
Adding what looks like RT shadows (visible in other shots) - and all of it running at double the framerate - and yes, all that RT talk is very real.
Also - not RT related but the motion detail resolution here (look at the roof/tree details) is dramatically different. Bodes well for PSSR in that respect.
My understanding was that 40fps already worked - as long as game was 120hz (those with dedicated VRR path). System option forcing the 120hz container isn't there - but that would hardly need to be Pro exclusive if Sony finally caved into pressure to add it.
If you do a Cube-Map probe around every car (for environment) you get like 98% of the ground truth of RT pass anyway. The only areas where RT makes a qualitative difference for cars - are self-reflections and inter-reflections (which presumably are both present in this case). Basically - unless full RT runs faster than cube-probes - you're literally throwing performance away for no visual benefit, and games (Especially console games) are not in a habit of doing that.
Cube-map refresh still needs to draw all the offscreen elements - and it scales with number of cars (there IS a cut-off point where RT will be alway sfaster), and it's actually more CPU intensive of the two. But the thing is - cars would come as BVHs in of themselves (so you don't need to update anything other than their position) - and if the environment is not so large it needs dynamically streamed BVH, the acceleration structures are basically update-free (whether you update them on CPU or GPU).
But yes - the GPU rendering costs will differ.
kevboard
Member
the cubemaps in racing games usually render extremely low LOD versions of the environment. cars and most non-static objects are typically not included in the cubemap, and the game only renders a single cubemap that centers around the player car and then gets applied to all the other cars near you.
so adding RT reflections that would be as good as the ones they currently have in replays/photo mode would definitely severely increase CPU load above that of simply using cubemaps.
which is the main reason I bet that Forza does this very limited RT distance.
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A lot of people seem to think that framerate is only limited by the CPU, that's not true at all. Only a few games are CPU limited, and those would not offer a 60fps/30fps option.
All the games that offer 60/30fps are by definition not CPU limited, because they only change the GPU related settings like draw distance, textures, resolution of course. And ray tracing is absolutely a GPU issue, not CPU. CPU would be way too slow to handle ray tracing. And why do you think you need a good GPU for ray tracing on PC? Because it's the GPU handling everything.
All the games that offer 60/30fps are by definition not CPU limited, because they only change the GPU related settings like draw distance, textures, resolution of course. And ray tracing is absolutely a GPU issue, not CPU. CPU would be way too slow to handle ray tracing. And why do you think you need a good GPU for ray tracing on PC? Because it's the GPU handling everything.
Yes, 4k60 will be the norm basically, high detail + high fps. Not bad!
A ton of games offer a 30/60fps mode, those are not CPU limited but GPU limited. All those games will now be able to run at 60+fps in high quality at 4k.
Also, a lot of the CPU calculations can be performed by the GPU, but then the game needs to be reengineered.
It's mostly taxing the GPU actually, and thanks to PSSR, it's possible to shoot fewer rays than before and then upscale the image intelligently.
The extra memory is not much, so it won't have a noticeable impact. Maybe it takes 2.2 seconds to load instead of 2 seconds. Big deal. However the visual and fps upgrades will be noticeable.
Sure then you can add an extra $100.
Physiognomonics
Member
They are comparing PS5 quality at 30fps vs PS5 Pro at 60fps. So Pro also get x4 higher resolution reflections + RT shadows.On PC.
Anyway - yes it's youtube but the difference in RT reflection resolution here(low-motion camera shot too, so no motion-blur/compression excuse) is at least 4:1:
Adding what looks like RT shadows (visible in other shots) - and all of it running at double the framerate - and yes, all that RT talk is very real.
Also - not RT related but the motion detail resolution here (look at the roof/tree details) is dramatically different. Bodes well for PSSR in that respect.
That's a lot of improvement. Shouldn't the better temporal resolution on Pro due to 30fps vs 60fps?
True. How could I forget; Those x86 based consoles these day run instead on magic and fairy dust, where bottlenecks don't exist.
saintjules
Member
You forgot to add Tru motion for that 60fps feel.
Little Chicken
Member
What's up with the Pro contrast
So do raytraced reflections - in any game, not just racing.
Also I actually call BS on that - most games I had inside view of, just used the standard scene render with reduced draw distance (for obvious reasons), and LOD would only adjust in so far as resolution of reflection was lower. It's far more common to do optimizations like reduced update-rate of some (or all) cube faces. But hey - RT does that in some games too.
Cars are not rendered for the same reason self-reflections are problematic - you end up in a recursion where things reflected just look plain wrong. If you can avoid that (some games do) you can happily render car-reflecting each other with cube-maps (some games do).
And the number of probes is entirely arbitrary - I've seen everything from 1 for everything in the scene (even static objects), to spatially distributed probes (so sharing is distance dependant), to 1 per dynamic object. Especially if you do all the associated optimizations you said were 'standard', and you aren't running an engine that is crippled by more than 1 camera (which to be fair - some middleware do suck at), a probe adds so little to the render time you can have dozens of them without a problem.
RT being 'CPU intensive' is mostly a false narrative outside of certain specific platform constraints (that aren't console specific). More importantly - for raytracing a car reflection - all we need is a BVH of environment that can be precomputed once (no runtime overhead to update) and a number of cars with their own BVH each (again - virtually no runtime overhead to update for GT where cars aren't destructible). The rest is smaller dynamic objects which - well in case of GT are next to nothing.
The case for 'BVH update comes at a cost' would be open-world like Forza Horizon - but that could still be mostly streamed precomputed with modern SSDs.
Bruno_Arrais85
Member
cool, old games.
I am sure that helps improving reconstruction resolve - but there are some really drastic differences here - the rooftop details are not just much clearer on the Pro - there's geometric detail visible that seems completely absent on the PS5 side.
Noone said anything about the hardware being a culprit.
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FoxMcChief
Gold Member
kevboard
Member
play Need for Speed Unbound, drive next to a parked car, look at that car in your car's reflection.
turns all of them into cybertrucks lol.
they look fine in cubemaps in almost any scenario. the aforementioned Need of Speed Unbound includes parked cars in their cubemap (which is rendered once for your car and is applied to all cars, never seen it done differently tbh)
it works, looks fine from a distance too, but it is costly so only parked cars are included. and I think they get removed the moment you hit (and therefore move) them.
the same is true for trees and barriers that can be knocked down.
RT reflections force you to render things outside of your camera. and yes, the cubemap reflections in car games already do that, but at a way lower quality than even Spiderman's super low quality LODs it uses for its RT reflections.
not to mention lower resolution as well typically. which you can not reduce as much when using raytracing, because if you reduce the resolution too much you will cross a line where the reflections will look so noisy that you ruin the visuals to a point that it makes them a visual downgrade over cubemaps.
Forza is actually not far off from hitting this line.
Cubemap reflections can be ridiculously low res and still look ok at a distance.
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Trilobit
Absolutely Cozy
It's amazing how the PS5 wasn't able to render a horse correctly. That's the ugliest winged horse I've ever seen and it looks more like a broom or something.
Zacfoldor
Member
I mean, it's huge. Just imaging the impact on ER if true. No patch needed.
I think the reason it isn't getting more play is many don't have a VRR tv.
I do, so I get your excitement. Shit is huge if true.
R6Rider
Gold Member
Physiognomonics
Member
Stop being excited about this statement from the CNET guy about the new 40fps window for VRR. I could be wrong but it could easily be an error, the guy mishearing 40fps instead of 48fps. They don't look to know a lot about videogames based on the questions that followed.
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Bruno_Arrais85
Member
Crap in, Crap out.
Hah - is Unbound Unreal? Or Frostbite? Both kind of sucked for multi-camera views anyway.
IIRC HotPursuit (2010) reflects other cars (at least the PC version) which necessitated multiple cubemaps - but then that game also had full headlight shadows including dynamic objects, something that consoles wouldn't see until a decade later. I vaguely remember MostWanted 2012 did it too - at least for headlights - but that could have been done without reflection.
It's not so much of a big deal - if you can render one map at sub ms, having several won't hurt too much. Usually it's the CPU overhead that kills engines on this, rendering is cheap (not a lot of pixels to fill) - so it's almost always proprietary tech that did so.
I mean - I'll admit it's been awhile since I looked at a game closely that does this - but that's not what it was like in Gen6/7. Most games rendered rather high fidelity reflections from geometric perspective (that's why you could get pretty crisp hood-camera as well in some of them). Burnout 3 - for all the hacks they did - had a proper scene rendered in the cubemaps (and on PS2, of all things) - none of the Spiderman hacks. As did GT, and any number of the games I worked on/supported.
This I agree - cubemaps can get away with way lower-res. Also you can actually use that to your advantage to simulate roughness cutoff of different materials - gaussian blur the reflection map (and other postprocessing for different materials - gives great results for less work per pixel (well depending on how much screen coverage you get with the reflective materials).
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Crayon
Member
I'm a maybe. I had the raw sticker shock a few days ago but after thinking about my options for more performance, it's worth considering. Main issue is I'm not especially wanting for more performance at the moment. By the time I am, the pro might be getting a little long in the tooth. It would take multiple games I want really running like crap to force my hand and pick between this and a gpu.
Physiognomonics
Member
What about the environments (including buildings, sun and clouds) we see reflecting on the cars here? cubemaps or RT?
FeralEcho
Member
True
farmerboy
Member
On PC.
Anyway - yes it's youtube but the difference in RT reflection resolution here(low-motion camera shot too, so no motion-blur/compression excuse) is at least 4:1:
Adding what looks like RT shadows (visible in other shots) - and all of it running at double the framerate - and yes, all that RT talk is very real.
Also - not RT related but the motion detail resolution here (look at the roof/tree details) is dramatically different. Bodes well for PSSR in that respect.
Christ, these are night and day. Not sure why people are trying to downplay so much.
kevboard
Member
it's Frostbite it does have extremely well considered reflections I gotta say.
as a complete package I'd say it has the best reflections of any racing game (track or open world) in recent history. and has good image quality AND runs at 60fps
while it does use SSR on roads (which I fucking hate with the passion of 1000 suns) it does have really solid planar reflections in addition to SSR to minimise SSR artifacts. cars are only in SSR, including your own car sadly, which will result in the underbody of your car clearly missing in the reflection, which looks suboptimal.
on building windows they use low quality, but scene accurate, cubemaps that look very convincing from normal viewing distances. and on cars they use the aforementioned cubemap that doesn't include moving cars but does include most parked cars.
from a normal viewing distance the cubemap looks perfectly fine, even the parked cars look fine honestly, but there is a photo mode, and that allows you to actually take a closer look... and well, it does look funny when you do that...
but hey! you can make out the Hofmeister knick, and could identify it to be a BMW in that cubemap I guess
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Panajev2001a
GAF's Pleasant Genius
Visual fluff? Ok, we start with condescending statements.
Insomniac is not the only developer that is trying to push RT (as much as people do want to dismiss it GT7 at 4K@60 is doing RT already in replays, Hogwarts Legacy is implementing it in their 40 FPS mode [which Spider-man 2 also supports]).
Spider-man 2 is investing in visual complexity and effects because that is what a new Spider-man game must deliver and it is a noticeable leap even in terms of rendering distance, NPCs + vehicle + dynamic background detail that the CPU must handle. Although "cinematic" the enemy encounters in the new game (and the new suit powers too) also bring a CPU cost to them.
10% is not a lot in and of itself but for titles designed from the ground up for the new consoles it might be what gives the game enough headroom to reach its target framerate in the PS5 Pro version. PS5 Pro RT implementation could also be reducing CPU cost for all we know… they know exactly the capabilities and limitations of PS5 and they likely re-designed the new RT HW support with that in mind. HW design wise the current Cerny led team (looking at all the consoles they designed like PS Vita, to PS4, PS4 Pro [out a year earlier than Xbox One X And launching at $100 less], and PS5) always managed to hit an impressive sweet spot with their designs all devs have appreciated.
GTA6 will be running on PS5 and PS5 Pro likely using RT effects on the latter so
. The argument I see some people talking out of both sides of their mouths seem to switch between "we do not need a Pro console, most engines are not optimised for the current consoles" and "ok, it sucks as it did not increase enough in metric XYZ". One contradicts the other but whatevs 
. 