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[Bernkastel]

/r/xCloud is a community run subreddit, with zero control from MS.

Their employees do hang out there but they are clearly flaired.




I don't know why my assertion that PS5 Pro is an unnecessary product seems so offensive to some people. It was just my viewpoint from the outside looking in. I get it, people will spend money on what they want, more power to Sony.

My point was, they already did a PS4 Pro, and they wanted to keep to that cadence, PS5 Pro then PS6 Pro in the future.

Let me give you some facts:

PS4 Pro GPU was 2.1 times more powerful than PS4, that's 110% better than PS4.

Xbox One X was 4 times more powerful than One S in GPU compute, that's 300% better.

PS5 Pro GPU was only 45% better than PS5 in raster, and 10% faster CPU than PS5. That's 25% better than Series X in GPU, and only 2-3% faster in CPU.

The leap for PS5 Pro was in Ray Tracing and Machine learning. But it still wasn't big enough leap in the grand scheme of things.

ohh what about this?

Spoiler

You seem to be a mod of r/xcloud and probably a member of Microsoft's official xcloud support team. You even advertised xCloud in the Stadia subreddit.

Spoiler

Why are you behaving like Microsoft support for xCloud?

 

[Physiognomonics]

I no longer have access to DevNet so I can't verify if anything changed with PS5 handling of things - but eg. PSVR was (and that runs multiple async computes, arguably more complex than PSSR). Again, runtime loaded modules have been the standard way to handle most* Sony provided libraries since PS2 era.

*Exceptions exist, but this was mostly PS2 time-frame where we had to deal with asymmetric CPUs and a whole bunch of other shenanigans as well as much thinner OS kernel.

Even if they use DLL modules for PSSR, the way developers have to patch themselves their games to the latest version of PSSR should mean the DLL is "shipped" with the game, right? So PS6 wouldn't be able to replace PSSR with FSR4 by a system level swap?

 

[TBiddy]

I call out a guy who admitted to be a Microsoft employee on reddit. And thats where you take the issue?

No, he admitted to be a mod on r/xcloud. I'm not sure you know it, but being a mod on a fansub about Microsoft products is not the same as being employed by Microsoft.

Besides, it's kinda creepy that you spend that much time stalking others outside Neogaf.

 

[vkbest]

Even if they use DLL modules for PSSR, the way developers have to patch themselves their games to the latest version of PSSR should mean the DLL is "shipped" with the game, right? So PS6 wouldn't be able to replace PSSR with FSR4 by a system level swap?

They can do if they are using the same inputs, they only simply ignore the model installed on the game for the latest one installed on the OS, the same for PS5 Pro.

Also, it's pretty stupid to think the new PS6 couldn't have Int8 support.

 

[Zuzu]

If it's true that PS6 won't support PSSR 1.0 then I hope this will cause Sony to release a mandate to developers that all PS5 Pro games that use PSSR 1.0 must be updated to support PSSR 2.0 before the PS6 comes out. Sadly this probably won't happen but it would be great because then some of these bad Pro games like Silent Hill 2 Remake will be forced to upgrade the game.

 

[Bernkastel]

No, he admitted to be a mod on r/xcloud. I'm not sure you know it, but being a mod on a fansub about Microsoft products is not the same as being employed by Microsoft.

Besides, it's kinda creepy that you spend that much time stalking others outside Neogaf.

Why is he behaving like Microsoft official xcloud support? "I can troubleshoot your issues".

 

[Clear]

The whole point of PSSR is to support standard inputs (via API) but then process those inputs using non-standard ML hardware to run the upscaling algorithms!

So long as the inputs remain the same (which they will) the only thing that's going to change are the overheads in terms of memory requirements and execution time.

Its not a major issue because to a large degree the game code is unaware of exactly how the frame-buffer data is being processed. It just needs to know what values to set to produce a resultant increase in resolution, how long that call is going to take to process and how much memory needs allocating.

 

[Madserb2023]

I doubt the PS6 will use PSSR as such. It will likely use just FS4 or whatever iteration it is by then. Much more simple for developers to homogenize upscaling.

 

[PaintTinJr]

I don't even understand why PSSR needed to exist. FSR 4 and framegen are more than good enough.

Hell, even the PS5 Pro didn't need to exist, they just did it to set an ongoing precedent of Pro models.

Frame-gen will never be good enough for competitive gaming, and only gets paired with upscalers to hide the processing latency of the scaler across multiple frames.

PSSR exists because a scaler that can operate in less than 25% of a 120fps frame is the correct solution to the problem for games like GT7 where true latency is far more important than some fake frame FPS counter.

The PlayStation/AMD Amethyst tech reveal already shows the (new) neural array and universal compression feature does even more than what the Pro custom features did to maximise the amount of data the U-net could work on per clock so changing the SDK implementation for Orion to use the newer hardware should be trivial to provided PSSR1 compatibility for Pro game if required - rather than swapping PSSR1 out for PSSR2.

 

[DenchDeckard]

There won't be anything to be concerned about by the time it launches. There will be a solution equal or better than PSSSR I am sure.

 

[GHG]

No, he admitted to be a mod on r/xcloud. I'm not sure you know it, but being a mod on a fansub about Microsoft products is not the same as being employed by Microsoft.

Oh to be naive.

 

[Felessan]

I doubt the PS6 will use PSSR as such. It will likely use just FS4 or whatever iteration it is by then. Much more simple for developers to homogenize upscaling.

Those are just names
PSSR for Playstation and FSR for AMD
Amethyst project itself is joint collaboration and both are byproducts of it

I expect int8 PSSR that Cerny told us about and AMD int8 FSR (beta already leaked) to be very similar.

 

[Joel Was Right]

Wait...does this mean the Pro won't have access to PSSR 2.0?

Because, I'm not buying a PS6 to play previous gen games.

 

[PaintTinJr]

Those are just names
PSSR for Playstation and FSR for AMD
Amethyst project itself is joint collaboration

I expect int8 PSSR that Cerny told us about and AMD int8 FSR (beta already leaked) to be very similar.

AFAIK, they are not similar inferencing implementations based on what Cerny has said over multiple interviews even though FSR4's model is fully available to PlayStation. IIRC FSR4 works the same as DLSS using complete renders at lower resolution as an input and PSSR uses native resolution with holes summing to 1/2 - 3/4 of the native resolution, effectively matching the effective number of pixels of DLSS/FSR4 source image, but doing it intelligently similar to how the Neural Radiance Caches use a Gaussian distribution to randomly sample the scene's lighting efficiently to find the areas of detail - like a battleships player - to increase the effective signal to noise in the input image.

 

[OLED_Gamer]

Explains why they expect to run FSR4 next year.

 

[RCU005]

It doesn't matter. Sony will still sell you The Last of Us Part II Remake remastered for PS6 at full price.

 

[BlackTron]

So we're supposed to be nervous that PS6 won't run PS5 Pro version of the game, and will be stuck with no recourse for improvement from the base PS5 version? That's certainly a take.

 

[Punished Miku]

I doubt this means much. Seems like PSSR was practically a beta test. If it's not supported going forward, it'll be because they're doing something else.

 

[HerjansEagleFeeder]

What is a PS5 Pro game?

This. Who gives a shit about PS5 Pro versions of games when the PS6 can just upscale the PS5 game better? It's not like there's anything special to how the games run on the Pro.

 

[Punished Miku]

I love how you're always throwing the shill card. I'm almost impressed by your dedication to this. Surely, you must be testing the mods to see how far you can take it, before they step in.

Dude has failed every test for weeks now.

 

[deriks]

Pretty neat.

Doesn't matter because I have bought 2 ps5 games.

So you have the whole library

@thread
Does that means they're confirming this upscaling is broken? The new console will be really more powerful? Where the videogames?

 

[S0ULZB0URNE]

Are we ignoring that the update is coming next year?

They are.

 

[Kenneth Haight]

How did Mark Cerny miss this, whatever shall we do now. The level of copium in this is absolutely absurd

 

[Karim]

/r/xCloud is a community run subreddit, with zero control from MS.

Their employees do hang out there but they are clearly flaired.




I don't know why my assertion that PS5 Pro is an unnecessary product seems so offensive to some people. It was just my viewpoint from the outside looking in. I get it, people will spend money on what they want, more power to Sony.

My point was, they already did a PS4 Pro, and they wanted to keep to that cadence, PS5 Pro then PS6 Pro in the future.

Let me give you some facts:

PS4 Pro GPU was 2.1 times more powerful than PS4, that's 110% better than PS4.

Xbox One X was 4 times more powerful than One S in GPU compute, that's 300% better.

PS5 Pro GPU was only 45% better than PS5 in raster, and 10% faster CPU than PS5. That's 25% better than Series X in GPU, and only 2-3% faster in CPU.

The leap for PS5 Pro was in Ray Tracing and Machine learning. But it still wasn't big enough leap in the grand scheme of things.

Isn't it big enough based on what? Well if it's based on your opinion, sure. It's not offensive say ps5 pro boost isn't it big enough, but it's not factual or universally true, just a personal take which I beg to differ. You are free to think that. But there are definitely games which show notable enhancements for sure.

 

[Radical_3d]

There won't be anything to be concerned about by the time it launches. There will be a solution equal or better than PSSSR I am sure.

That's not the point here. The question is if Sony knows how to implement an interceptor on the code. Or want to.

 

[Memati187]

Gotta say, there are some stupid takes and then there is this lmao

 

[Cyborg]

What is a PS5 Pro game? Its a PS5 game with use of PSSR... if PS6 doesnt use PSSR then it will use a different method that is applicable to that specific PS5 game.

 

[Karim]

That's not the point here. The question is if Sony knows how to implement an interceptor on the code. Or want to.

It's really this the question? Reading the OP not seems. To me seems more some people have already established games with older PSSR won't work on ps6. I suspect indeed games will work with the later PSSR interaction. Otherwise I don't see the point to "testing" early the PSSR on the ps5 pro.

 

[Felessan]

AFAIK, they are not similar inferencing implementations based on what Cerny has said over multiple interviews even though FSR4's model is fully available to PlayStation. IIRC FSR4 works the same as DLSS using complete renders at lower resolution as an input and PSSR uses native resolution with holes summing to 1/2 - 3/4 of the native resolution, effectively matching the effective number of pixels of DLSS/FSR4 source image, but doing it intelligently similar to how the Neural Radiance Caches use a Gaussian distribution to randomly sample the scene's lighting efficiently to find the areas of detail - like a battleships player - to increase the effective signal to noise in the input image.

Cerny also wants it to be in-cache execution (partially on Pro and presumably fully on PS6) that feasible on fixed hardware and AMD probably will not follow that as they would want it to be scalable across different hardware.
But anyway it's tweaks every party do for their needs and that optimal for them, but the general project is joint collaboration.
The core will be similar across FSR and PSSR and distinct features will be tailored for particular product - so there is no real point to use FSR instead of PSSR and vice versa if they are on similar stage of development

 

[damidu]

lol get your early fud season tickets.
morons never learn.

 

[Zathalus]

I don't even understand why PSSR needed to exist. FSR 4 and framegen are more than good enough.

Hell, even the PS5 Pro didn't need to exist, they just did it to set an ongoing precedent of Pro models.

PSSR was developed before FSR4, and the Pro hardware was finalised before FP8 support could be included. All of the work that went into PSSR is being folded together with FSR4 now that AMD and Sony are working together.

You state that FSR4 is good enough and then state the Pro doesn't need to exist. But if the Pro doesn't exist then FSR4 would never come to PlayStation until the PS6. So clearly the Pro can be utilised and has a reason for existing.

Next year this current iteration of PSSR will be obsolete, but that doesn't mean all the work put into it will be wasted.

 

[Karim]

PSSR was developed before FSR4, and the Pro hardware was finalised before FP8 support could be included. All of the work that went into PSSR is being folded together with FSR4 now that AMD and Sony are working together.

You state that FSR4 is good enough and then state the Pro doesn't need to exist. But if the Pro doesn't exist then FSR4 would never come to PlayStation until the PS6. So clearly the Pro can be utilised and has a reason for existing.

Next year this current iteration of PSSR will be obsolete, but that doesn't mean all the work put into it will be wasted.

I wouldn't be so sure about it. I suspect they are developed almost contemporary.

 

[Felessan]

That's not the point here. The question is if Sony knows how to implement an interceptor on the code. Or want to.

If they made PSSR with assumption that model could be changed and make it a thin layer, they don't need an interceptor, swapping model will be same as swapping dll
If they made it code to metal on game side - there will be difficulties

But given that Sony encountered similar problem on PS4Pro where they have to update each game to unlock Pro extra power, and on PS5Pro this unlock done on system level without breaking games - I expect that swapping model wouldn't require per game updating.

 

[Felessan]

I wouldn't be so sure about it. I suspect they are developed almost contemporary.

FSR4 is partially based on PSSR, so it was developed after.
PSSR is basically Amethyst 1.0 and was developed when LLM were not a huge thing and thus based on DLLS2/3 tech
And FSR4 is Amethyst 2.0 and developed after rise of LLM and is peer to DLSS4

 

[Panajev2001a]

So there's been some interesting talk from Kepler about the PS6's hardware and it might be bad news for anyone expecting full compatibility with the PS5 Pro





If this is true, it basically means Sony's next-gen console could have a totally different AI upscaling pipeline making the PS5 Pro's custom PSSR tech incompatible
That would be huge since Sony's been heavily marketing PSSR as a key feature for the Playstation brand

Ok, so this is like the new PS5 does not really support RT right? Orders are out and the FUD commences ?

 

[Xtib81]

PSSR is a shitty ass upscaler that is meant to make us wait until they implement fsr 4 or whatever Sony and AMD are working on.

 

[Fafalada]

Even if they use DLL modules for PSSR, the way developers have to patch themselves their games to the latest version of PSSR should mean the DLL is "shipped" with the game, right?

Er - no?
For example DX worked this way since forever - version updates are done game-side/patches but the DLLs are not shipped* with games.
*MS actually explicitly prohibits shipping their DLLs with the games - though it's technically possible(windows will allow it) - and I've worked on a few games where we've done it as a security measure (anti cheat).

But even if that were the case, the DLL intercept/swap would be trivial/straightforward on a console where packages have reliable delivery mechanisms and you can't randomly stash files somewhere else.

The question is if Sony knows how to implement an interceptor on the code.

If they made it code to metal on game side - there will be difficulties

It would be a first in well over a decade for Sony to do that. And really there'd be no point, we already had everything from swap-chain control to async-jobs and more via dynamic modules 10 years ago, added value of 'static linking/compilation' has been greatly diminished in last 2 decades.

 

[ShadowkillXNA]

I love how you're always throwing the shill card. I'm almost impressed by your dedication to this. Surely, you must be testing the mods to see how far you can take it, before they step in.

 

[GoldenEye98]

Would kinda suck if PS6 can't use the PS5 Pro version of the game...

 

[Doctor Hades]

I highly doubt that Sony are going to release a PS6 that doesn't support enhanced PS5 Pro games via backward compatibility. It just does not make any sense especially if it will run PS5 games.

What I suspect will happen is that PSSR will be replaced by FSR 4 and there is a big update rumoured for PS5 Pro for next year for this. Likely all games using PSSR will be replaced by FSR 4 without any games patches at a system level paving the way for the games to run on PS6. PS6 will be using some sort of part emulation to maintain backward compatibility with PS4 and PS5 games anyway so this same feature can be added to its firmware to allow PS5 Pro games to still run with FSR 4 on PS6.

 

[Ronin_7]

They'll just update the PSSR version for each game or disable it.

Nothing to see here.

 

[saintjules]

Nothing to see here.

IDK man. We're 3 pages deep already..

 

[DeepEnigma]

IDK man. We're 3 pages deep already..

 

[PaintTinJr]

FSR4 is partially based on PSSR, so it was developed after.
PSSR is basically Amethyst 1.0 and was developed when LLM were not a huge thing and thus based on DLLS2/3 tech
And FSR4 is Amethyst 2.0 and developed after rise of LLM and is peer to DLSS4

LLMs are a different branch of deep learning and have nothing really to do with the Convolutional Neural Network U-net tensor solution which is what PSSR1.0 is.

DLSS2 - 3.6 and FSR4 are also CNNs, and DLSS4 is a transformer solution all with varying strengths and weaknesses and tradeoffs.

 

[NickFire]

Well, obviously the PS5 Pro is better value than a 2 TB Series X, my point was, it wasn't a big enough leap to be necessary to exist. That's why MS skipped mid gen refresh, going straight to Magnus.

They didn't skip it. They released their pro model (X) same day as the S.

 

[RAIDEN1]

Forget PS Pro, it would be a miracle if it supported PS3 on a level the Xbox did with it's backward compatibility

 

[Mr Moose]

Do people understand that @KeplerL2 literally said that here on GAF like 1 or 2 days ago? What the hell is happening?!

GAF > Internet > GAF.

 

[Melfice7]

What kinda michael pachter prediction type bullshit is this?

 

[Magic Carpet]

PS5 games to be upgraded to PS6 for 9.99.
It seems developers want to do this sorta thing from now on.
I had 12 bucks sitting in the Switch 2 store wallet, no games that cheap, so I just spent the 9.99 to upgrade Breath of the Wild.

 

[Freelance Yakuza]

Remember the FUD about "only select PS4 games will run on the PS5, it doesn't have BC" and "PS5 doesn't support raytracing XSX does!"?

I guess we're at it again in record time. Just wait 2 years instead of this early concern trolling.

Yeah, came here to say the same thing
PS6 will run just 10 PS5 games, Sony doomed