Little Green Yoda
Member
Wouldn't even need a new mechanic. Just have a preemptive buff dispel before a preemptive hit.
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Puzzle & Dragons |OT4| Co-op Edition: Stoning With Friends
- Thread starter Cosmo Clock 21
- Start date
Actually, that would work. Do double hits also dispel shields? Stuff like what Zeus and Hera or Aamir do? I expect to see a lot more of that stuff in that case.
Yeah I haven't used it quite yet. At least want to awaken it before it gets thrown in.
I think long term that it will be worth it though. The one strength of her is her survivability and burst potential, and having another hasty card that makes hearts makes it better.
I am using 2 uriel so I still have good fire orb potential so we will see.
I was messing around with You Yu paired with Sumire. That cross will take some getting used to, but it isn't as hard as I thought it would be to make.
Practiced a few times in weekend dungeon and then tried that pair on one of the challenge dungeons I was having trouble with. I didn't know the shield and all it's buffs lasted until you got hit. I beat the challenge first try and the damage is still very respectable.
Anyone with a Sumire will be very happy pairing up with You Yu.
Practiced a few times in weekend dungeon and then tried that pair on one of the challenge dungeons I was having trouble with. I didn't know the shield and all it's buffs lasted until you got hit. I beat the challenge first try and the damage is still very respectable.
Anyone with a Sumire will be very happy pairing up with You Yu.
Lyrian
Member
No limit on best friends, technically. You can pick one per reset period, and an infinite number of other people can pick you as their best friend.
jay23 said:
Nope. The bargain set is too new for a reset in NA/EU.
Hot damn, that's slick. I never realized! Wasting a perfectly good slot all this time, how silly.
Little Green Yoda
Member
Anyone here use Tsubaki often and would be interested in a BF triangle before the reset?
My other frequently used leads include Dmeta, Lkali, Xiang Mei, Blonia, Pandora, and Bastet.
My other frequently used leads include Dmeta, Lkali, Xiang Mei, Blonia, Pandora, and Bastet.
Yeah, I'm convinced on Kaede. Her Shield truly is monstrous. I think she'll be undone by new mechanics more easily than XM, but she'll be worth making for content up to Arena 3.
Now the question is, how am I gonna build her?
Current thought.
Kaede/Vishnu/Vishnu/Verdandi/A. Parvati/Kaede
I'll inherit a bind clear on Parvati since she's fully bind immune. She'll provide great utility in and of herself with that heart generation and TPA and she can be the cleric. She seems to be a far better choice than the A. Ceres I've seen normally suggested.
Generating heart orbs is the most important thing, so I'll inherit at least 1 more heart maker on a Vishnu. For the last 2 spots, I'll put on a True Damage, Orochi and probably 1 more heart maker. GZL would also be an excellent choice.
Those are just my initial thoughts. I wonder how non-system/single Kaede teams are going to shake out long term?
Now the question is, how am I gonna build her?
Current thought.
Kaede/Vishnu/Vishnu/Verdandi/A. Parvati/Kaede
I'll inherit a bind clear on Parvati since she's fully bind immune. She'll provide great utility in and of herself with that heart generation and TPA and she can be the cleric. She seems to be a far better choice than the A. Ceres I've seen normally suggested.
Generating heart orbs is the most important thing, so I'll inherit at least 1 more heart maker on a Vishnu. For the last 2 spots, I'll put on a True Damage, Orochi and probably 1 more heart maker. GZL would also be an excellent choice.
Those are just my initial thoughts. I wonder how non-system/single Kaede teams are going to shake out long term?
Dr_LawyerCop
Member
Seeing videos of Kaede system teams, it's a level of power creep I haven't seen since I started playing almost a year ago. It trivializes the most difficult content in the game. You'd have to be a whale to have that team, so I guess it doesn't matter too much. I've got Sumire, so I might see what the play style is like.
Think I'm taking on mech Zeus soon with my Sephiroth team. Running Seph/A. Yomi/DL Yomi/A. Isis/DKali. Haven't figured out skill transfers, but the team is mostly done. Anyone who's cleared that dungeon have any suggestions?
Think I'm taking on mech Zeus soon with my Sephiroth team. Running Seph/A. Yomi/DL Yomi/A. Isis/DKali. Haven't figured out skill transfers, but the team is mostly done. Anyone who's cleared that dungeon have any suggestions?
Zippedpinhead
Member
Seraphis was painful. Went in with Apanda leads. (Mine is +200, friend was hyper).
Subs were, Yomidra (hyper), Akechi (hyper) AHaku (+150, 1 off max skill), and Okuni (max skill +100 something)
On paper this looks like something I can do. Use skills to get to Kakaab, avoid his insta death, stall until Akechi and Haku/Apanda are back with okuni and then move into Sepharis.
Sepharis you have the "chipping" problem due to the dark team, (at least on mythical, legend I could tank the perseverance attack).
Just painful dungeon, designed against dark teams an impossible with light and Sakuya/A ra teams (though I guess if I had a DKali and RaDra it would be possible with that one)
Subs were, Yomidra (hyper), Akechi (hyper) AHaku (+150, 1 off max skill), and Okuni (max skill +100 something)
On paper this looks like something I can do. Use skills to get to Kakaab, avoid his insta death, stall until Akechi and Haku/Apanda are back with okuni and then move into Sepharis.
Sepharis you have the "chipping" problem due to the dark team, (at least on mythical, legend I could tank the perseverance attack).
Just painful dungeon, designed against dark teams an impossible with light and Sakuya/A ra teams (though I guess if I had a DKali and RaDra it would be possible with that one)
Cosmo Clock 21
Banned
Also looking for another Best Friend triangle....but there arent too many people here running Water/Wood leads.
Just compensation for the shitty MP Units Wood has been getting - so Gung-Ho just thought it would be fun to drop a SS Rank lead to get the green fans to whale lol.
Just compensation for the shitty MP Units Wood has been getting - so Gung-Ho just thought it would be fun to drop a SS Rank lead to get the green fans to whale lol.
Cosmo reposted just a bit ago if you're interested. From your list, I have LKali, Pandora, and Blonia all hyper plus I have 3 Tsubaki that I plan to use down the line. I have one that is max level and skilled but not +egged.
Lyrian
Member
I've got a Sylvie that I use as my main team green lead. Blue tends to elude me, though. I do have a Sumire in my box, but lack blue orb changers to make the team functional.
Lyrian
Member
That's the concern I raised last page. How exactly do you stop an on-demand 75% shield?
Sure, you can preemptive to clear the carry-over on the shield/atk buff. But, that only affects turn 1. The player can simply re-activate to restore invincibility. At worse, all that does is delay the inevitable by a turn.
You can force the monster to always destroy hearts on every attack. But with a 64x attack rating, the player simply activates the dragoncaller and sweeps the monster.
What is left then? Create a new pre-emptive debuff for "Buffs Disabled"? Maybe make that into a conditional dungeon requirement? At worst, they could simply cheap out and use the dreaded "Leader Skills Disabled" from Forbidden Tower and slap it on a descend. That will go over **real** well with the player base.
Create monsters that have attacks that break shields. Done. Kaede doesn't have that extreme of an HP, so you could do that without denying too many other teams.
A 'buffs disabled' could work as well, though overkill. If they wanted to really just target the new Dragoncallers, they could just have an attack that breaks any shield over 50%
A mix of heart eaters, resolve, awoken skill disabled and other nasty currently existing debuffs could really screw her up as well.
Lyrian
Member
That's Pandora's Box right there.
You are essentially describing one of the two possibilities:
1) The shield is a buff, that can be dispelled. Problem here, is that their shield is part of a leader skill and not a buff (it doesn't show in the buff window). I'm not sure that the coding exists exists to dispel a leader skill directly (there never was a need to do that).
2) You are advocating that monsters do true damage to ignore defensive shields. The coding is surely there, as players have always been able to do this. However, this sets a very bad precedent. The moment that enemy true damage exists anywhere, the entire meta of the game has to shift permanently to "As much HP as possible, with highest potential attack running HP boosting leaders". The game has always skirted around this issue by simply having monsters do silly amounts of damage (aka 300k+ damage killshots).
Also, breaking shields over 50% would also claim Indra and Kush as innocent victims here.
-- Comboing of existing mechanics:
Awoken disable is meaningless. All of their power is derived from the leader skill. Full activation can be achieved in an awokenless state.
Debuffs: The problem here is that GungHo messed up bad and made an niche, but severely OP skill finally available on a REM card that no one cares about. That card is 2271, Maeda Keiji. Inherit Orb Refresh onto any card on the team to get out of any debuff situation. 99% gravity --> LKali board change --> lock all orbs? Orb refresh your way out that every time.
Resolve: Reasonable, but an annoyance more than anything. I could see more bosses like Seraphis in the future, where players have to chip the enemy's health into a narrow zone for a kill shot. However, there is nothing that really stops Dragoncaller teams from keeping the 75% up constantly and slowly grinding their way to the target zone.
I really don't envy the situation GungHo has placed themselves into here.
Another option: Do double attacks like Zeus & Hera dispell buffs? If not, either make the mechanic do that or introduce monsters where that's the case if you don't want to change existing content.
Awoken invalid would matter when combined with a shield Debuff. 64x isn't that much of a multiplier on its own and if Kaede squads can't put out TPA damage, it becomes harder for them to survive with their relatively low HP.
And here's another question. Let's say that Kaede is broken for a good while until power creep catches up. Does it matter? PAD has had good long periods of dominant and broken leads before. How long was it before they finally broke GrOdin? How about we talk about how easy it was to clear content with AA Lucifer? Remember when Kirin was the most insanely powerful lead in the game? Ronia was absolutely busted as well. Juggler took forever before GungHo could bury him. RaDra was pretty much unstoppable prior to the Radar Dragons and Xiang Mei is almost as broken as Kaede.
In every case, GungHo has found a way out. If Kaede stays broken for a few months or even close to a year, does it matter? The game has survived longer periods of single lead dominance. Each one of my listed leads where nearly as 'invincible' as Kaede during their time and people still had a ton of fun playing both those leads and coming up with great teams on less powerful ones. Whether Kaede is truly broken or not, the game will eventually catch up to her and it will keep chugging along until it does.
Awoken invalid would matter when combined with a shield Debuff. 64x isn't that much of a multiplier on its own and if Kaede squads can't put out TPA damage, it becomes harder for them to survive with their relatively low HP.
And here's another question. Let's say that Kaede is broken for a good while until power creep catches up. Does it matter? PAD has had good long periods of dominant and broken leads before. How long was it before they finally broke GrOdin? How about we talk about how easy it was to clear content with AA Lucifer? Remember when Kirin was the most insanely powerful lead in the game? Ronia was absolutely busted as well. Juggler took forever before GungHo could bury him. RaDra was pretty much unstoppable prior to the Radar Dragons and Xiang Mei is almost as broken as Kaede.
In every case, GungHo has found a way out. If Kaede stays broken for a few months or even close to a year, does it matter? The game has survived longer periods of single lead dominance. Each one of my listed leads where nearly as 'invincible' as Kaede during their time and people still had a ton of fun playing both those leads and coming up with great teams on less powerful ones. Whether Kaede is truly broken or not, the game will eventually catch up to her and it will keep chugging along until it does.
Cosmo Clock 21
Banned
Lyrian
Member
I think you are underestimating the potential of "only" 64x. With my paltry 14x + rows for Sylvie + Gonia, I can dish out over 10 million damage for the team, which is more than plenty for anything below M+ or Annihilations.
Unless you are dealing with 99 turn Awoken Disable, Kaede teams can simply stall out the debuff. Worst case scenario, bring/inherit an actual shield and ride the debuff out (same would apply to a "Leader Skill Disable" debuff.
Does it matter? Short term, no. You are correct in your assertions. But, what will matter is what happens down the road in response to Kaede. Because whatever GH decides to do, that will manifest itself continually in future content, even in lower difficulties (ex: awoken disables in Legend for Seraphis). So, in a way, Kaede is shaping the future, just like all the other previous SS leads.
Is the game enjoyable without Kaede? Absolutely. You are correct, in that the game will go on. All in all, GH set the power creep bar awfully high this time, especially for a non 300k MP shop card. It will be interesting to see in the long run how GH brings her back in line in terms of power. Unless there is some significant way out that all of us are overlooking, she will be on the top of the food chain for very long time.
She'll be high up for a while. I think Xiang Mei will outlast her. RaDra would drop out of SS tier first, but I suspect he'll get a second Ult/Reincarnation evo right before he drops and will keep his top slot. I do think Gung Ho knows exactly how they're going to Kaede already. Her power was no accident. Anyone could realize that shield was powerful when they wrote the card. They wouldn't have put it out if they hadn't had an idea where they were going to go.
I'm not sure anyone will last as long near the top of the pile as Kirin did during her original run. There's a reason her fanbase has continued for so long. She was a lead that many people rerolled to get for the longest time. 4 colors for 25x was insane during her day and right as she started to fade, L. Kali came out and made her absolutely stupid strong again.
I'm not sure anyone will last as long near the top of the pile as Kirin did during her original run. There's a reason her fanbase has continued for so long. She was a lead that many people rerolled to get for the longest time. 4 colors for 25x was insane during her day and right as she started to fade, L. Kali came out and made her absolutely stupid strong again.
So yeah Chiyome on Red Riding Hood was definitely the right call. XM is pretty much always available for hearts. Gadius to Red Riding Hood(Chiyome) or XM(Saria) to Red Riding Hood(Chiyome) has worked great for bursts. Then her utility for making hearts while stalling for inherits has been awesome.
Valen has been less useful but his TPA had helped when hearts weren't around for trash floors and his SBR and shield have come into play a couple times (Seraphis) so it's not a wasted slot.
I plan on running arena with this team but I need to block off an hour to do it. I can't see this going quickly.
I managed to finish Max skilling Uriel and Facet too.
Valen has been less useful but his TPA had helped when hearts weren't around for trash floors and his SBR and shield have come into play a couple times (Seraphis) so it's not a wasted slot.
I plan on running arena with this team but I need to block off an hour to do it. I can't see this going quickly.
I managed to finish Max skilling Uriel and Facet too.
Lyrian
Member
It will be interesting to see what GH does with the 300k MP Shop cards over time. Inevitably, power creep will catch up with them. Will GH give them an Uevo to 10 stars, or will GH simply require players to drop a fresh 300k on a 3rd or 4th series MP card? One one hand, giving them Uevos would make players happy, but limit the need to purchases replacement MP leader cards. On the other hand, if GH goes the route of requiring a fresh purchase, players will be extremely salty and may be turned off completely from future MP shop purchases.
popcorn.gif
In other news, NA/EU has PreDra Infestation tomorrow. Normally not newsworthy, but PADX seems to be very quietly claiming that skill delay latents have been added as invades.
Good luck getting one to spawn though. PADX claims the odds of an invade are 1 in 8 on Legend (expected rate: 1 per 792 stamina), 1 in 20 on Master (expected rate: 1 per 1000 stamina).
Lyrian
Member
Grats on the clear!
If GH was just going to drop cards to get people to buy new ones, they would've stopped supporting other popular leads like Kirin and Ronia. They buff old cards that people have investment in all the time. They will do the same here.
Buffing them also encourages a new set of players to purchase them.
I highly suspect we won't get traditional UUevos of them either. That reincarnation evo method is going to be used elsewhere and MP cards are the perfect space.
Thanks, can't believe I struggled so much with my near perfect Ra team then cleared it on first try with incomplete yomi team thanks to the devil/attacker enhance.
Lyrian
Member
I agree with you that GH **should** treat the MP cards like other cards and give them Uevos when needed. That said, I'm still skeptical that the MP cards will be treated in this manner. Players will absolutely expect this to occur, without a doubt. However, if the MP cards gain Uevos, then people will gain future expectations that MP cards will always **need** to be the best cards in the game hands down. For example, Yomidra is starting to fall off the tier lists entirely (game8 dropped it completely this week). People will start to demand its Uevo... any day now?
I do agree reincarnation is the route of the future, although I don't believe it will be used on cards that have not at least had an Uevo yet (and probably not before the card has had an Awoken of SUevo).
Predras are post-midnight in NA again? /facepalm Glad I don't go to bed at a normal hour like I should.
The initial evos of the MP cards are Uevos. That's why I think the second tier evos are going to be Reincarnations.
You can't undo Reincarnations, right? That means they lock off split evos. It's part of the reason I think we'll see the MP card evos be reincarnations instead of UUevos or Split Evos. It makes sense to push those special cards with a new mechanic that makes their power creep make sense and it makes sense to not split the line if you're eventually going to make it so you can't backtrack.
You can't undo Reincarnations, right? That means they lock off split evos. It's part of the reason I think we'll see the MP card evos be reincarnations instead of UUevos or Split Evos. It makes sense to push those special cards with a new mechanic that makes their power creep make sense and it makes sense to not split the line if you're eventually going to make it so you can't backtrack.
Awoken Indra:
AS: 2 turn 75% shield; 1 turn haste 13 CD
LS: Dragon/Physical Types 2x ATK and RCV; Light/Green match for 2.5x ATK
Awoken Vritra:
AS: The lesser your HP, the more dark damage you deal to all targets; 2x dark attribute for 1 turn 8 CD
LS: Dragon/Devil Types 2x HP and ATK; Dark/Red match for 2.5x ATK
Deal breaker for Pandora, she needs that double SBR.
A. Vritra was MADE for Awoken Lucifer with those rows, damage increase, and god killer. Fits right in.
I'm still debating whether the 1 less turn for Indra is a deal breaker or not. On one side you have more damage and a extra time extend (not to mention haste) to speed up the process to use his skill again.
Then again 2 turns is a huge nerf from 3 turns. I really hope Japan complains, he really needs that 3rd turn. If it was 100% defense for 2 turns then okay, but don't argue with me that is too OP because look at Raphael. (Although one could argue that a full board change of heart can be considered a nerf.)
Does she? She has 1, 2 with the other leader, zuoh has 1, vitera would have 1, which just means one of the other orb changers would need to pick up the slack. Akechi has a SBR too, for instance.
Well call me dumb, I forget Pandora had a SBR for some reason. xD
Vritra can fit in Pandora for sure, what was I saying before? IGNORE. IGNORE MY FORGETFULNESS!
Dr_LawyerCop
Member
Hyped for Vritra. I don't have Loki, so I've never been sure if my A. Pandora team can burst enough for arena, so he'll fit right in. Also still fills the push button farming niche still. Really well thought out card. No clue if he's a decent lead or not, but I don't need him to be.
A. Indra might as well not exist. I knew he'd lose God type.
A. Indra might as well not exist. I knew he'd lose God type.
Don't underestimate Indra just because he looses God Type... his 2 "dongs" nearly cancel out the 2.25x multiplier lost by his type! The dmg reduction going from 3 to 2 turns is more serious though...
Spike Spiegel
Member
I need a way to reliably beat the Wednesday dungeon and get more Green Sacred Masks.
So here's the pickle I'm in. I have 2 max skilled Indras. I was planning on keeping one on Ra Dragon and using the other as an inherit (probably on Rukia/You Yu if I ever get the MP again).
What teams does Awoken Indra really enhance? He has a shitload of utility but his typing restricts his optimal use to a few teams. He'd work best for Xiu Min but where else?
Also I yolo'ed the ShinraBansho Choco REM and snagged Kiriko Another. So she'll be replacing Valen on my Xiang Mei team when I don't need a shield. The stat comparison between the two is surprisingly even. Kiriko has a bunch more RCV though. At max skill she's almost in sync with RRH's inherited Chiyome.
A. Shiva
Urd
Yamato
Echidna
Cao Cao
A. Shiva
Most floors you can just burst through. Any red orb changers can go on the team as long as you have Echidna. The last floor you want to use the delay, This will give you a chance to kill a mask (preferably the blue since it's not delayed).
If you have the above team the Urd-->Cao Cao-->A. Shiva burst will kill both masks.
What teams does Awoken Indra really enhance? He has a shitload of utility but his typing restricts his optimal use to a few teams. He'd work best for Xiu Min but where else?
Also I yolo'ed the ShinraBansho Choco REM and snagged Kiriko Another. So she'll be replacing Valen on my Xiang Mei team when I don't need a shield. The stat comparison between the two is surprisingly even. Kiriko has a bunch more RCV though. At max skill she's almost in sync with RRH's inherited Chiyome.
You need 100% SBR and a lot of damage or a defense break. A Shield and/or a Delay is also really useful. I finally managed to consistently clear it with an Awoken Shiva team.
A. Shiva
Urd
Yamato
Echidna
Cao Cao
A. Shiva
Most floors you can just burst through. Any red orb changers can go on the team as long as you have Echidna. The last floor you want to use the delay, This will give you a chance to kill a mask (preferably the blue since it's not delayed).
If you have the above team the Urd-->Cao Cao-->A. Shiva burst will kill both masks.
Dr_LawyerCop
Member
I wouldn't rush to awaken until you have a team that clearly needs awoken Indra. Maybe sherias root when we get it, or Sakuya if you want to run that, since it'll cover colors. You're not going to want to lead with him, so I'm not sure when you'd want to make the switch.
That's kind of what I thought. I'm just not seeing a spot for him that isn't covered by his other Evos aside from Xiu Min where he'll be a rock star. He has everything that team needs. The shield covers Xiu's lack of HP bonus, 2 SBR opens up team building, 2 fingers, prongs, and SBs means he'll be a great damage dealer on the team and help solve tricky boards while being up near turn 3 depending on subs. Tack on that he'll be buffed by Xiu's active and I feel like he'll be a staple sub on the team.
EDIT: The more I think about it I see him as a L/G hole filler. This helps A. Sakuya, L. Kali, D. Kali, A. DQXQ (kind of), A. Ra, and, if you get a TPA, Ra Dragon. There are other subs that fill the niche (Isis covers blue/green for rainbow teams, L. Valk, Athena, Chibi Valk cover L/G TPA, etc) but if you need green color coverage and a shield A. Indra and Susano are pretty much the only games in town.
I don't see this drastically changing any "optimal" teams but as a filler sub he does the job as well as any other option (better than most even thanks to his utility).
I guess I was just hoping for more than a swiss army knife from him. I think it'd be really cool to have a great non MP Dragon looking dragon as a top tier lead.
Spike Spiegel
Member
My green team's the only group I have with skill-bind resists activated, and only at 80%.
GZL (leader)
Kushinada (stuck in her second form, which is why I need to beat this dungeon)
4Leaf Thumbelina
Wonder Woman
I have a Yamato, an Echidna, and a Demolishing Shiva, but that's only three for a red team.
The problem I keep running into is that the monsters I want to evolve to improve my teams require materials I don't have, and the only way to get those materials is to beat dungeons I haven't beaten, and I haven't beaten them because I can't improve the monsters on my teams.
Cosmo Clock 21
Banned
If you can swallow the MP cost, you could just buy the required cards from the MP shop, or pray to the gacha gods when the PEM is on evo mats. You can also probably get carried through the dungeon in co-op when 9.2 hits and the weekday dungeons become available for co-op.
Could you post your box?
Could you post your box?
So this dungeon throws out 2 insane 99 turn skill binds at you. You NEED 100% for this dungeon for anything resembling consistency. Post your box, I'm sure you at least have the parts of a team that can clear this. Worst case scenario keep pulling at the evo pal machine. Eventually something useful will pop out. It took me forever to be able to clear the Gold Keeper daily so every one I had was from the evo machine.
If you don't have enough awoken monsters to hit 100% Skill Bind Resist you need tamas. The best place to find them is the tama invade dungeon but without true damage/poison the dark tamas will ruin your day. There were invading Castle of Satan in the Abyss during GungHo fest but the odds were pretty low.
Succubus/Lilith is a farmable poison caster that can make the tama dungeon palatable (non boss floor dark tamas will still suck).
Daily dungeons lend them selves to weirder team compositions than most content because of the very specific mechanics present in each one.
Wednesdays is Skill bind. Even if you have to go off color for a sub with SBR it's often worth it. If you want to stick with a green team GZL is decent but for this dungeon getting below 80% and staying out of insta kill range is going to be hard.
You have delay and defense break covered. you team can reach 100% SBR. So the question is can you put out the damage to kill the ancient masks? The green one is more dangerous (I was wrong about which one was status immune). The good news is the blue one will put you in the 4.5x attack range with its preemptive attack. The bad news is the green mask has insane defense and the blue is no slouch either. You need to deal a single hit over 900k to kill the blue and over a million in a single hit to kill the green.
You want to kill them both at the same time or at LEAST within a turn of each other because they will wreck you the next turn.
Little Green Yoda
Member
Haven't played on this account in a while but here is my box of favorites. Can anyone give me some advice on what team I should start investing into?
http://imgur.com/a/P8CSX
http://imgur.com/a/P8CSX
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