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[sonycowboy]

OK,

They're asking publishers to include the emulation code on the disc itself, right? And to limit using the harddrive, so that the core users can enjoy BC. Seems like a nice enough thing for consumers.

But, I have one question:

Why would publishers want to do this?

Publishers, in general, don't really like BC as it encourages more people to stay with their old games as opposed to buying the new versions. You can say that it could help original Xbox game sales after the 360 is launched, but IMO, it would hinder 360 sales more than help original Xbox sales. Now for the Playstation, which has tens of millions of users, there are definitely some titles that benefited from longer shelf lives, but IMO, most of the sales were to PSOne owners, not PS2.

Plus, it seems to be shifting the BC responsibility (however minor) onto the publishers. I just don't see them caring to do this, but maybe Microsoft is providing some sort of incentives.

 

[Fatghost]

OK,

They're asking publishers to include the emulation code on the disc itself, right? And to limit using the harddrive, so that the core users can enjoy BC. Seems like a nice enough thing for consumers.

But, I have one question:

Why would publishers want to do this?

Publishers, in general, don't really like BC as it encourages more people to stay with their old games as opposed to buying the new versions. You can say that it could help original Xbox game sales after the 360 is launched, but IMO, it would hinder 360 sales more than help original Xbox sales. Now for the Playstation, which has tens of millions of users, there are definitely some titles that benefited from longer shelf lives, but IMO, most of the sales were to PSOne owners, not PS2.

Plus, it seems to be shifting the BC responsibility (however minor) onto the publishers. I just don't see them caring to do this, but maybe Microsoft is providing some sort of incentives.

What's worse - if MS is asking Xbox1 devs to avoid using the HDD to make it easier to run on X360, isn't that going to negatively impact on the quality on the Xbox1 titles? They will purposely not be using the maximum potential of the machine.

 

[stewy]

I'd be surprised if there's next to no work involved on the game publisher's end for this stuff. Microsoft is probably taking care of it all since they're the ones who stand to benefit from Xbox titles working with the X360 core unit.

 

[Striek]

I'd be surprised if there's next to no work involved on the game publisher's end for this stuff. Microsoft is probably taking care of it all since they're the ones who stand to benefit from Xbox titles working with the X360 core unit.

Eh well, as said above, they are basically asking developers to drop support for the HDD for new Xbox1 games.

I really think backwards compatibility is just a bullet-point for MS, as long as they have some titles compatible then they can market it. I doubt they truly care how many titles achieve it.

 

[Spider_Jerusalem]

They're asking publishers to include the emulation code on the disc itself, right? And to limit using the harddrive, so that the core users can enjoy BC. Seems like a nice enough thing for consumers.

Where did you read this?

 

[sonycowboy]

Where did you read this?

http://new.ga-forum.com/showthread.php?t=60537

http://www.1up.com/do/newsStory?cId=3143142

 

[raYne]

I see your point but...

Why would publishers want to do this?

I'd say that there's a pretty good chance that there will be 360 owners who never had Xbox 1's. That alone broadens the market and brings in more possible sales.

 

[sprsk]

The idea of BC on xbox360 is so convoluted its hardly even a feature.

 

[Dr_Cogent]

No backwards compatability for you!

The idea of BC on xbox360 is so convoluted its hardly even a feature.

Basically, IMO, it's not a feature.

 

[Ponn]

What's worse - if MS is asking Xbox1 devs to avoid using the HDD to make it easier to run on X360, isn't that going to negatively impact on the quality on the Xbox1 titles? They will purposely not be using the maximum potential of the machine.

I see this also as a glimpse into HDD support for Xbox 360 games. The retard pack is seeming not so retarded anymore if they are going to do nothing but play up to it.

 

[PhatSaqs]

I really think backwards compatibility is just a bullet-point for MS, as long as they have some titles compatible then they can market it. I doubt they truly care how many titles achieve it.

I agree. It's great for them to have sales people be able to answer "Yes" to soccer mom #21s "Will it play his old games?" question.

 

[Spider_Jerusalem]

Oh well, I totally skipped that thread. Very interesting, thanks for the heads up

 

[Wolffen]

But, I have one question:

Why would publishers want to do this?

Because a publisher can hit two overlapping but distinct markets with one game SKU. Yes, most 360 launch owners will most likely own a Xbox 1, but there will be owners who don't have an Xbox. So you have a chance to sell to existing Xbox owners AND new 360 owners.
1up says that this is only happening on "AAA" titles. Whether the game takes advantage of the 360 hardware or not, it's still a game a 360 owner could potentially play.

Publishers, in general, don't really like BC as it encourages more people to stay with their old games as opposed to buying the new versions. You can say that it could help original Xbox game sales after the 360 is launched, but IMO, it would hinder 360 sales more than help original Xbox sales. Now for the Playstation, which has tens of millions of users, there are definitely some titles that benefited from longer shelf lives, but IMO, most of the sales were to PSOne owners, not PS2.

Depends on the game genre and the publisher. If, say, Prince of Persia 3 is BC with a 360 Core system, will that game compete with Ghost Recon on the 360? Those two game appeal to two different sets of gamers. Launch games tend to be few in number (although, again, MS seems to be doing a good job with this). But lets say a PS2 owner plunks down for a 360 core (heaven forbid!). He's not into RPGs or Racers or tactical FPS games. He loved PoP 1 and 2 though. He sees PoP3 with a "Compatible with Xbox360" sticker. So he buys the Xbox version to play on his 360. Did Ubisoft lose a sale? No. They gained a sale. And MS gets a cut of that sale, vs Sony getting a cut if he had bought the PS2 version instead.

Sure this might eat into 360 software sales, but it all about offering consumers choice (at least, that's what MS keeps saying). If people want a next gen experience, they'll buy a 360 game (and avoid TH:AW). If the 360 games don't appeal to them, or they wanted to see what they were missing on the Xbox, the consumer can buy an Xbox game for their console too.

Plus, it seems to be shifting the BC responsibility (however minor) onto the publishers. I just don't see them caring to do this, but maybe Microsoft is providing some sort of incentives.

Sure: they're offering a potential second market for the games without having to totally recode their games for the PS2 or GC. At this point, MS must know what is required to get the BC working easily on the 360. If MS can share that with publishers and developers, it helps both parties in the long run.

That said: MS is making BC the most complicated thing I've ever seen on a console.

 

[Beer Monkey]

Eh well, as said above, they are basically asking developers to drop support for the HDD for new Xbox1 games.

Not really. By that argument, none of the new 360 games will use cacheing, and we know that's not true.

The best way to keep the game running comparably is all systems is to definitely cache on the Xbox 1, since it doesn't have the super-fast DVD drive of the 360.

 

[Fatghost]

I agree. It's great for them to have sales people be able to answer "Yes" to soccer mom #21s "Will it play his old games?" question.

Until Soccer Mom #21 returns to the store, pissed off that her son's new X360 is "broken" because it won't play SpongeBob's VideoGame Adventure.

 

[bill0527]

I don't believe enough people care about BC to make a publisher flinch over the feature.

Everyone says they care about BC, but we all know in truth that its really only a selling point. I don't know any of my friends but the ultra-hardcore who ever even use it. I used it once on my PS2 and that was for Final Fantasy 9, which for some strange reason came out 1 month after PS2 launched. Once people start getting used to the graphics and capabilities of a new system, its hard to go back.

 

[DarienA]

So now we've gone from not compatible with the core system without the HDD, to might be compatible with the core system without the HDD...... well that certainly clears things up.

 

[ThongyDonk]

Only worth having BC if you have many generations of games to sell and make it worth while and can sell sell games in a cheap and relatively easy way to a core nostalgic demographic!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[ThongyDonk]

Once people start getting used to the graphics and capabilities of a new system, its hard to go back.

Try telling Nintendo that and the millions of people who want Old Mario etc!

 

[Argyle]

Anyone know which Xbox 1 games "already contain the emulation code?" I'm curious to see if it's a recompiled executable or some kind of config file for a full-blown emulator...

 

[Striek]

Not really. By that argument, none of the new 360 games will use cacheing, and we know that's not true.

The best way to keep the game running comparably is all systems is to definitely cache on the Xbox 1, since it doesn't have the super-fast DVD drive of the 360.

That doesn't make sense. They aren't going to cache on X1 to accommodate for the increased DVD read speed of the X360, since that would require them to implement two different streaming technologies, one for X1 and another for X360.

With X360 its the same thing, but you know the userbase is fragmented and from the start decide whether or not its worthwile to pursue caching for HDD enabled users.

 

[HokieJoe]

I never got the gruff over BC anyway. The ONLY time I would use it would be to play Halo2, PGR2, or GR2 with friends over live. I agree with bill0527- it's just a bullet point on a brochure.

Given the choice, I'd much rather have HDD's in ALL 360's over BC any day. And yeah, I know it's probably not a comparable trade-off, but BC isn't exactly a free ride either.

 

[Dr_Cogent]

I agree with bill0527- it's just a bullet point on a brochure.

I don't even think it's that. If it is, the bullet point should read

* Kinda, sorta backwards compatible sometimes.

 

[HokieJoe]

Yep, looks pretty sketchy to me.

 

[VALIS]

I don't even think it's that. If it is, the bullet point should read

* Kinda, sorta backwards compatible sometimes.

Really? So since you know what the 360's backwards compatibility is all about, and no one else outside of Microsoft does, by all means fill us in! I've been wanting to know.

Eh? What's that?

 

[Dr_Cogent]

Really? So since you know what the 360's backwards compatibility is all about, and no one else outside of Microsoft does, by all means fill us in! I've been wanting to know.

Eh? What's that?

No one knows. That's the point. Not even MS at this point knows whats going on it seems.

Bet your ass on this, there won't be 100% compatability with the Retard Pack

So, thats why - if it's a bullet item - it's like I described it.

It's kinda, sorta backwards compatible.

 

[Striek]

Bet your ass on this, there won't be 100% compatability with the Retard Pack

Or the premium pack. Afterall MS likes to say "no console in history has had 100% backwards compatibility" in defending X360.

 

[VALIS]

No one knows. That's the point. Not even MS at this point knows whats going on it seems.

Bet your ass on this, there won't be 100% compatability with the Retard Pack

So, thats why - if it's a bullet item - it's like I described it.

It's kinda, sorta backwards compatible.

The only reliable, first hand things I've heard about the BC was that interview with the lead engineer who was working on it (I forget the site/publication). He said the goal was 100%. That may take a while, that might not (and probably won't) even be achievable, but it is their goal. Which is why I'm balking when people say the BC is going to be a mess and insignificant. Where do you get this from?

 

[Dr_Cogent]

Or the premium pack. Afterall MS likes to say "no console in history has had 100% backwards compatibility" in defending X360.

Yeah, so far all they are saying is the AAA titles are going to have it at first. They can decide to quit bothering anytime they want.

Basically, it's no where near the level that the PS2 was for the PSX. Isn't it only like a handful of titles that won't run on the PS2 that are PSX games?

The only reliable, first hand things I've heard about the BC was that interview with the lead engineer who was working on it (I forget the site/publication). He said the goal was 100%. That may take a while, that might not (and probably won't) even be achievable, but it is their goal. Which is why I'm balking when people say the BC is going to be a mess and insignificant. Where do you get this from?

MS is notorious for saying one thing, then going back on their word.

Remember last week?

As a Windows Dev, I've seen this happen for the past 10 years. This is nothing new.

Hell, recent example. Vista, - NO WINFS FOR YOU!

We will give it to you when we are good and ready.

They have no commitment to us VALIS. None whatsoever.

Actions speak louder than words

Anyone can say anything. Actually following through is an entirely different matter.

 

[PhatSaqs]

MS is notorious for saying one thing, then going back on their word.

Remember last week?

This is nothing new.

Nothing new for any company. It happens all the time. The only thing MS is guilty of is rushing the hell out of this launch. It may or may not be within reason but it is what it is.

 

[VALIS]

We will give it to you when we are good and ready.

They have no commitment to us VALIS. None whatsoever.

Actions speak louder than words

Anyone can say anything. Actually following through is an entirely different matter.

So then shouldn't you be waiting to see what they deliver instead of proclaiming it a failure now? All you're doing is claiming your words are closer to the truth than theirs. Ain't no "action" anywhere.

 

[mckmas8808]

Yeah, so far all they are saying is the AAA titles are going to have it at first. They can decide to quit bothering anytime they want.

Basically, it's no where near the level that the PS2 was for the PSX. Isn't it only like a handful of titles that won't run on the PS2 that are PSX games?

I heard it was 15 games. And the PSone has what over 7,000 games.

And guys the already sold Xbox1 games don't have the emulation code on them. So are MS expecting devs to recode all their past games like Max Payne 2 for example to work on the X360? [/important question]

 

[Beer Monkey]

That doesn't make sense. They aren't going to cache on X1 to accommodate for the increased DVD read speed of the X360, since that would require them to implement two different streaming technologies, one for X1 and another for X360.

Not really. Both drives are IDE/ATA devices, all you do is use a little if-then-else logic to determine where to get certain game assets.

 

[chespace]

Hmm, we have another piece of the BC puzzle, but need to do some research on that today. More updates later.

 

[Dr_Cogent]

Nothing new for any company. It happens all the time. The only thing MS is guilty of is rushing the hell out of this launch. It may or may not be within reason but it is what it is.

MS is worse than most from my experience at least.

So then shouldn't you be waiting to see what they deliver instead of proclaiming it a failure now? All you're doing is claiming your words are closer to the truth than theirs. Ain't no "action" anywhere.

VALIS, I think it's safe to say some games are simply not going to work without a hard drive. OK, so right there, Retard Pack users won't have full backwards compatability.

BC hinging on peripherals, which mind you use to come standard with the previous version, is pretty weak.

 

[xsarien]

I heard it was 15 games. And the PSone has what over 7,000 games.

And guys the already sold Xbox1 games don't have the emulation code on them. So are MS expecting devs to recode all their past games like Max Payne 2 for example to work on the X360? [/important question]

No.

 

[Ponn]

I heard it was 15 games. And the PSone has what over 7,000 games.

And guys the already sold Xbox1 games don't have the emulation code on them. So are MS expecting devs to recode all their past games like Max Payne 2 for example to work on the X360? [/important question]

I can see MS repackaging and recoding some titles of theirs or close like Fable or Halo and Halo 2 but really this is going to only work on future games coming out so needing a HD for full(to what extent it will be) still will need a HD.

In response to those now trying to downplay BC in consoles I call such bullshit on you people I can smell it from here. You are just utterly fooling yourselves to say BC is not a big deal. Maybe, just maybe in the case of Xbox it isn't a "Deal Breaking" decison for some. But really saying that is only saying the Xbox library was not that great that people would want to go back and play it. I know i'm looking forward to the Revolution finally having BC and playing all the way back to the NES. And if the DS wasn't BC with GBA I am positive sales would have been lower. And the I replay all the PSone FF's and FF tactics on my PS2 quite often. Not to mention replays of Castlevania SoTN, Einhander, Xenogears, Vandal Hearts 1 and 2, Suikoden and other personal gems of mine like Tecmos Deception and Kagero. And I am looking forward to being able to do the same on the PS3 and replay some classic PS2 games like Katamari, the Nippon Ichi SRPGS, FF's (hell I will probably be playing FFXII for the first time on the PS3), Kingdom Hearts, etc etc. So is BC just a selling point, DAMN RIGHT IT IS! An important one too if you care about the library it's for.

 

[Flo_Evans]

BC kind of depends on your gaming habits. I like to keep my games forever. Alot of people trade them in or use gamefly/blockbuster.

And damn it I'm still pissed of that some asshat stole my copy of einhander/MGS/some other stuff I cant even think of right now.. My Ps1 library is probably at 25/50 from lending out games and never getting them back!

 

[Fatghost]

In response to those now trying to downplay BC in consoles I call such bullshit on you people I can smell it from here. You are just utterly fooling yourselves to say BC is not a big deal. Maybe, just maybe in the case of Xbox it isn't a "Deal Breaking" decison for some. But really saying that is only saying the Xbox library was not that great that people would want to go back and play it. I know i'm looking forward to the Revolution finally having BC and playing all the way back to the NES. And if the DS wasn't BC with GBA I am positive sales would have been lower. And the I replay all the PSone FF's and FF tactics on my PS2 quite often. Not to mention replays of Castlevania SoTN, Einhander, Xenogears, Vandal Hearts 1 and 2, Suikoden and other personal gems of mine like Tecmos Deception and Kagero. And I am looking forward to being able to do the same on the PS3 and replay some classic PS2 games like Katamari, the Nippon Ichi SRPGS, FF's (hell I will probably be playing FFXII for the first time on the PS3), Kingdom Hearts, etc etc. So is BC just a selling point, DAMN RIGHT IT IS! An important one too if you care about the library it's for.

QFT.

 

[PhatSaqs]

In response to those now trying to downplay BC in consoles I call such bullshit on you people I can smell it from here. You are just utterly fooling yourselves to say BC is not a big deal.

:lol

 

[Dr_Cogent]

BC is always good. No one has infinite space to fit every console or peice of hardware.

If the 360 was fully BC, and if I ever got one, I could give my son the original Xbox to take to work with his mother and he would be able to play his games, while I would still have the ability to play my old Xbox games.

If BC didn't mean shit, Nintendo wouldn't be doing it in Rev and Sony would have never done it in the first place. BC is important.

 

[Beowvlf]

BC, regardless of who uses it or who doesn't, is now a standard, expected feature on home consoles. Plain and simple. Sony and Nintendo can give me 99.9% BC, why can't MS?

 

[raYne]

BC, regardless of who uses it or who doesn't, is now a standard, expected feature on home consoles. Plain and simple. Sony and Nintendo can give me 99.9% BC, why can't MS?

Because they weren't planning to do it in the first place. It wasn't until the 360 was already revealed and people started bitching about it's absense that they began to take steps to add BC via software mods, licensing hardware etc. That's why.

Right now it's a bonus, one that wasn't planned at all whether or not it should've been "standard".

 

[bishoptl]

Hmm, we have another piece of the BC puzzle, but need to do some research on that today. More updates later.

batten down the hatches, ladies

 

[Kabuki Waq]

i usually make a big deal about BC but honeslty once a new system comes out i find it really hard to go back to the old games.

 

[KingJ2002]

I really dont care about many future xbox titles so BC is not on my mind... well just in case SNK decides to release samurai shodown tenka, neo geo battle coliseum, and kof xi in the future... i would like to know i can play it on my 360.

 

[Dr_Cogent]

Because they weren't planning to do it in the first place. It wasn't until the 360 was already revealed and people started bitching about it's absense that they began to take steps to add BC via software mods, licensing hardware etc. That's why.

Right now it's a bonus, one that wasn't planned at all whether or not it should've been "standard".

The consumer doesn't care about excuses as to why. All they care about is what the manufacturer can offer them. If it's half-assed - well - usually that doesn't fly with consumers.

Average Consumer != GAF

MS just needs to compete. If they didn't plan on BC, that's their own damn problem and they shouldn't have had their heads up their asses.

The thing is, I am sure there are multiple forces at MS. Some pulling for the HD being standard, and some not. The guys who wanted it standard LOST.

 

[HokieJoe]

I can see MS repackaging and recoding some titles of theirs or close like Fable or Halo and Halo 2 but really this is going to only work on future games coming out so needing a HD for full(to what extent it will be) still will need a HD.

In response to those now trying to downplay BC in consoles I call such bullshit on you people I can smell it from here. You are just utterly fooling yourselves to say BC is not a big deal. Maybe, just maybe in the case of Xbox it isn't a "Deal Breaking" decison for some. But really saying that is only saying the Xbox library was not that great that people would want to go back and play it. I know i'm looking forward to the Revolution finally having BC and playing all the way back to the NES. And if the DS wasn't BC with GBA I am positive sales would have been lower. And the I replay all the PSone FF's and FF tactics on my PS2 quite often. Not to mention replays of Castlevania SoTN, Einhander, Xenogears, Vandal Hearts 1 and 2, Suikoden and other personal gems of mine like Tecmos Deception and Kagero. And I am looking forward to being able to do the same on the PS3 and replay some classic PS2 games like Katamari, the Nippon Ichi SRPGS, FF's (hell I will probably be playing FFXII for the first time on the PS3), Kingdom Hearts, etc etc. So is BC just a selling point, DAMN RIGHT IT IS! An important one too if you care about the library it's for.

Bullshit on me? Well, bullshit on you to... hummph!

I said that I dont' get the big deal about BC; and if MS had to make design compromises to fulfill a promise that they never made, then absolutely yes- screw BC. If those old games are that important, then just keep the old Xbox to play them.

I mean cripes, we've had this discussion how many times?

Anyway, that's just my opinion of the matter.

 

[raYne]

The consumer doesn't care about excuses as to why. All they care about is what the manufacturer can offer them. If it's half-assed - well - usually that doesn't fly with consumers.

There's no argument there. I'm simply answering the guy's question. It's not half-assed because they want it to be, it's half-assed because it wasn't planned for.

If they were working on it throughout the 360's development this view of how much it seems to suck would be dead on warranted. But considering they're trying to give these same consumers something they want this late in the game after the 360 was done which was never part of the original plan in the first place, I'd say they're doing a fairly well.

 

[PhatSaqs]

batten down the hatches, ladies

Shit. The only thing that could get any worse in regards to X360 BC at this point is if MS charges for it somehow.