Support NeoGAF

[Gravijah]

i expect doom 4 on the ps4.

 

[Wallach]

i expect doom 4 on the ps4.

I hope so. Carmack did say that Doom 4 was coming "sooner than people expected" and that they were going to shoot for 30 FPS so that they could make more concessions, which makes me think a lot of the limitations that were present here would still be around.

 

[plagiarize]

It makes no difference, that is the point of virtualized texturing. The vram texture budget isn't affected by the source files. Carmack has already said he wanted to ship a 50GB build on PS3, and intends to on Doom 4, that will go some way to fix the shitty texturing.

if it made no difference, then increasing the size of the texture cache in vram would make no difference... but it does. going from 4k to 8k makes a difference, and going from 8k to 16k makes a difference in certain scenes.

and not just in terms of detail pop. in stationary screenshots. some scenes have too much going on at once in order for the full megatexture to be loaded in for everything. there's comparison screens in the Rage PC performance thread... and quotes from Carmack confirming.

 

[StuBurns]

if it made no difference, then increasing the size of the texture cache in vram would make no difference... but it does. going from 4k to 8k makes a difference, and going from 8k to 16k makes a difference in certain scenes.

and not just in terms of detail pop. in stationary screenshots. some scenes have too much going on at once in order for the full megatexture to be loaded in for everything. there's comparison screens in the Rage PC performance thread... and quotes from Carmack confirming.

If it wasn't the case, why did Carmack want to do a 50GB build at all? Why does he next time with Doom 4? The reason the textures look so bad is because they're obscenely compressed, the fact he wants lesser compressed versions is a very clear indication there is a positive affect within the same vram budget.

 

[plagiarize]

If it wasn't the case, why did Carmack want to do a 50GB build at all? Why does he next time with Doom 4? The reason the textures look so bad is because they're obscenely compressed, the fact he wants lesser compressed versions is a very clear indication their is a positive affect within the same vram budget.

for less compressed textures... absolutely. but not for higher resolution textures.

you can see the compression artifacts in the textures, and i have no debate that the game would look better without those, but you aren't going to get them higher RESOLUTION on the PS3.

an uncompressed texture and a compressed texture both take up the same amount of VRAM once you load them off the disc (and in the case of the compressed texture after you've decompressed it), unlike a higher resolution texture.

so the vram budget is effected by the source files. not by how compressed they are on disk, but by their resolution once decompressed. hopefully that clears that up.

the problem with the PS3 version, and the thing that stopped them doing that, is that texture streaming doesn't work great from blu-ray due to it's high seek times. that's why they begged Sony to let them do as big an install as possible, and even then they weren't allowed to install all the textures.

it's a shame, absolutely. if they could have filled the blu-ray, and had been allowed all that texture info to be installed to disc, the PS3 version would have stomped the crap out of the 360 one.

 

[fizzelopeguss]

baking right down to the specular map, that's some quake 3 shit right there.

 

[Teknoman]

The game looks just fine in motion. Most people are going to want an overall great looking image...and arent going to spend time getting as close to objects as possible just to notice texture quality.

 

[plagiarize]

baking right down to the specular map, that's some quake 3 shit right there.

baking in GI. that's some Mirror's Edge shit right there.

*sigh*

 

[StuBurns]

for less compressed textures... absolutely. but not for higher resolution textures...

All true, but I don't think I said higher resolution, and if I did, it was a mistake on my part, I believe I just said it would stop them looking 'like ass'. We'll see though I guess.

 

[dark10x]

It wasn't an absolute claim from my part, so obviously some people would think other wise. But it's a tendency regarding Rage graphics, which isn't pushing many complex effects by today's real time rendering standards.

And for what you wrote we seem to be in the same page, the art saves the game more than the "megatextures"

You must realize, then, that the look of Rage could not be achieved without megatextures.

baking right down to the specular map, that's some quake 3 shit right there.

What's wrong with it? It can look great (as noted above, Mirrors Edge is a great example) and saves a lot of resources. I don't believe realtime lighting is necessary for all games. If sacrificing that allows for a fast 60 fps on consoles, I think more developers should consider taking that route.

 

[plagiarize]

All true, but I don't think I said higher resolution, and if I did, it was a mistake on my part, I believe I just said it would stop them looking 'like ass'. We'll see though I guess.

even if you didn't, it's good that we've made the distinction together so people don't expect Doom 4 on PS3 to have higher res textures (although admittedly if the environments are smaller they could increase texture resolution within the same texture budget).

i'm hoping that we're going to see megatexturing with real time lighting in Doom 4, because while i'm completely fine with Rage being lit like Mirror's Edge, Doom 4 needs to be dynamic as fuck to maintain the right atmosphere.

even Doom 1 had notably dynamic lighting (for its time).

 

[plagiarize]

What's wrong with it? It can look great (as noted above, Mirrors Edge is a great example) and saves a lot of resources. I don't believe realtime lighting is necessary for all games. If sacrificing that allows for a fast 60 fps on consoles, I think more developers should consider taking that route.

the biggest problem is that it causes a big bottleneck in the design process. you have to wait hours (or days even depending on how complex your calculations are and if you're doing them in house or not) to see the end result of any texture or environment changes you've made since you made your last lightmap.

realtime lighting speeds up the development process a fair bit as you can instantly see the impact of your changes. that's one of the reasons why CryEngine 3 is such an impressive multiplatform engine.

but i do agree with you. if your game doesn't need to do dynamic lighting and doesn't need destructable or moving environments, why not prebake the lighting to a higher accuracy than you could do in realtime, while simultaneously making the game run a lot quicker, either letting you hit 60 fps, or letting you divert that freed up power elsewhere.

even Rage's darker environments where i thought it might be an issue are still dripping with atmosphere (and have a small degree of dynamic lighting, in the Doom sense of the word).

 

[AgentOtaku]

Playing this too much....

my hands are killing me!

FU 360 controller! T__T

I'm getting to the point that I would have endured the texture shortcomings just so I wouldn't have to deal with the hand cramps.

 

[Peterthumpa]

Oh stop it.

That's my personal feeling by having played both games.

 

[StuBurns]

i'm hoping that we're going to see megatexturing with real time lighting in Doom 4, because while i'm completely fine with Rage being lit like Mirror's Edge, Doom 4 needs to be dynamic as fuck to maintain the right atmosphere.

even Doom 1 had notably dynamic lighting (for its time).

That'd be very nice, presumably the cut to 30fps will mean hugely more room for things like real time lighting. Also, being a lot darker will no doubt help mask a lot of the texture issues.

 

[∀ Narayan]

Just beat it.

That

Spoiler

non-

ending makes me want to RAGE!

Gameplay, gunplay, sound, and visuals are great!

Sidequests are okay since they provide a motor for the gameplay, but they could definitely use more substance.

Story and character development is pretty much nonexistent.

Good game. Well worth the money, but it could definitely use improvement in some areas.

Now I'm going to start Dark Souls.

 

[evilernLeGG]

I never even noticed that this game lacked real time lighting (until seeing it mentioned in this thread), and I think it looks phenomenal.

 

[∀ Narayan]

I never even noticed that this game lacked real time lighting (until seeing it mentioned in this thread), and I think it looks phenomenal.

No kidding. I think a lot of developers could learn from this game and its tech.

 

[MustacheBandit_]

just beat it (master race version). pleasantly surprised by the game, i enjoyed the gunplay a lot! I coulda done with a better ending and I wasn't too into all the driving stuff but overall I enjoyed the experience. The artwork in it was fantastic too!

 

[Metal-Geo]

Hahahaha. Anyone recognizing the comic this bloke is reading?

I certainly do.

inb4 highest res texture trolololol

 

[bloodydrake]

really behind on this conversation (damn work)
but I gotta agree with what plagiarize has been saying.

I greatly appreciate that mega-texture allows for completely original textures everywhere.

I think just like the original Polygon Quake 1 that was the first 100% realtime 3d shooter this brings alot to the design table.

I think back to games like Resident Evil and Final Fantasy 7 with their pre-rendered backgrounds and how they looked so beautiful(ironically they were low res as well).
For the first time since games transitioned to 3d rendering, designers can actually reproduce unique artwork for any scene with no real reusing and tiling of textures. I think that's pretty big.

As we all know the trade offs are due to this console gens limitations.. Doom4s gonna be 60 on PC even if its 30 on console just by the nature of hardware advancements.
If Doom4 ends up being next gen console and pc ..and any other games that utilize it..could just be spectacular.

 

[Bumhead]

Are people still using the custom config files even post patch?

I did nail 60fps with zero pop in the other day but despite doing nothing to alter my settings since I can't seem to get that again. I just can't seem to strike a very good balance. Some sections are worse than others too and the performance can vary greatly one day to the next. I've just done Dead City and it was an absolute rollercoaster in terms of performance.. up and down around every corner.

 

[Refreshment.01]

Regressing on your product is always a bad thing.

Hahaha.. if you a$ked Ken he probably $ay otherwi$e.

but the megatextures make that possible. the two go hand in hand. if Rage had been built in UE3, it would look better up close and personal, but in screens like Dark just posted, it wouldn't look nearly as good.

You must realize, then, that the look of Rage could not be achieved without megatextures.

We'll have to disagree in the part, that the great art we see in Rage wouldn't be possible using more traditional methods. An interesting thing to consider is that most of all pictures posted by Dark10x are panoramic shots, probably the ones less dependant of megatextures.

and 30 fps.

On our beloved consoles

...and arent going to spend time getting as close to objects as possible just to notice texture quality.

To be fair in Rage you don't need to be that close to notice lack of texture quality, its even more apparent or easy to notice than the other top looking shooters.

I greatly appreciate that mega-texture allows for completely original textures everywhere.

I think just like the original Polygon Quake 1 that was the first 100% realtime 3d shooter this brings alot to the design table.

For the first time since games transitioned to 3d rendering, designers can actually reproduce unique artwork for any scene with no real reusing and tiling of textures. I think that's pretty big.

As i understand some developers are working on solutions that are quicker than "megatexture" to get a more varied look for the environments.

Hahahaha. Anyone recognizing the comic this bloke is reading?
inb4 highest res texture trolololol

Fuck the comic, that bottle label... its hideous!

 

[dark10x]

We'll have to disagree in the part, that the great art we see in Rage wouldn't be possible using more traditional methods. An interesting thing to consider is that most of all pictures posted by Dark10x are panoramic shots, probably the ones less dependant of megatextures.

Quite the opposite. The panoramic shots are precisely the ones that show off what megatexture can do. The point is to be able to create a texture across the entire environment and, from a distance, this work is much easier to appreciate. Traditional methods tend to look worse when viewed from a distance as the tiling become more apparent.

 

[commissar]

Setting threads to zero fixed the problems I had.

Game is a lot of fun, kind of wish I had started on nightmare instead of hard. But then again I bet I'd get destroyed in later levels if I did.

 

[jett]

Wow what the hell happened in Dead City? It has more macroblocking than the most god awful jpeg I've ever seen in all my years of browsing the interwebs.

 

[RoboPlato]

Aside from pop-in issues, which may be improved since I'll be getting a new HDD soon, is the PS3 version solid?

 

[jett]

Aside from pop-in issues, which may be improved since I'll be getting a new HDD soon, is the PS3 version solid?

It seems to be.

If you put a SSD into that bitch it seems you won't have texture pop-in of any kind. That video is eons away from what I'm playing on my PC. :|

 

[Guts Of Thor]

Is it possible to complete the Mutant Menace job without a keyboard and mouse? Jesus, it's missions like this that really show how much controllers are a piece of a shit control scheme.

 

[bloodydrake]

Wow what the hell happened in Dead City? It has more macroblocking than the most god awful jpeg I've ever seen in all my years of browsing the interwebs.

I've heard that and it hasn't been my experiance at all.
Sure there are low res textures..but overall I found Dead city to be pretty cool
Heres caps I have of the area while playing, all steam extreme compressed and not really that bad.

 

[MrBig]

Is it possible to complete the Mutant Menace job without a keyboard and mouse? Jesus, it's missions like this that really show how much controllers are a piece of a shit control scheme.

After the first race I plugged in a 360 controller and never looked back. Finished the game with no problems. This game was consoles first.

 

[RoboPlato]

It seems to be.

If you put a SSD into that bitch it seems you won't have texture pop-in of any kind. That video is eons away from what I'm playing on my PC. :|

I want an SSD but I think that I'll be going with this one since it's response times are pretty close to SSD and a lot cheaper.

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B003NSBF32/?tag=neogaf0e-20

 

[Deleted member 17706]

After the first race I plugged in a 360 controller and never looked back. Finished the game with no problems. This game was consoles first.

Even for shooting segments?

Bleh.

 

[Wallach]

Even for shooting segments?

Bleh.

Yeah, I feel the same way. Clearly superior for the driving stuff but I don't like it for any of the on-foot gameplay.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

Yeah, I feel the same way. Clearly superior for the driving stuff but I don't like it for any of the on-foot gameplay.

I used the 360 controller while in town, too, just because navigating the menus with a mouse was infuriating. Once I was in a dungeon, however, it was back over to the keyboard and mouse.

 

[Wallach]

I used the 360 controller while in town, too, just because navigating the menus with a mouse was infuriating. Once I was in a dungeon, however, it was back over to the keyboard and mouse.

With the m_menu_sensitivity set to -0.2 I thought the menus were tolerable (though I do still prefer the interface with the controller), so it was more a case of laziness that I didn't pick up the controller whenever in the menus.

 

[MrBig]

Yeah, I feel the same way. Clearly superior for the driving stuff but I don't like it for any of the on-foot gameplay.

I use a mouse in games that I need to be precise in. If I'm in it for smooth gameplay I always use a 360 controller. That's my own preference and I know its odd.

 

[commissar]

It seems to be.

If you put a SSD into that bitch it seems you won't have texture pop-in of any kind. That video is eons away from what I'm playing on my PC. :|

I haven't tested if there's an improvement as I just went and did it, but you could try and set the rage swap file to a different hard drive.

Got to use symbolic links in Vista/7 to do it though.

This is what I did:

run cmd as administrator
type "mklink" (w/out "s) to get the syntax

so I typed (include quotes for file paths):

mklink /J "C:\Users\MyName\AppData\Local\id software\rage" "D:\rage scratch"

though if the files are already there you will need to move them or delete and rebuild it next time you load rage

 

[The Antitype]

I keep seeing a 'caution' sign everytime I try to enter one of the Wasteland sewers.

I went in the one with the guy in the tent beside it, but none of the other ones will let me in. Anybody know what gives?

 

[Wallach]

I keep seeing a 'caution' sign everytime I try to enter one of the Wasteland sewers.

I went in the one with the guy in the tent beside it, but none of the other ones will let me in. Anybody know what gives?

If it's a caution sign, that means it's an exit and not an entrance. Wherever there is an exit though, an entrance is not far.

 

[Echoplx]

I use a mouse in games that I need to be precise in. If I'm in it for smooth gameplay I always use a 360 controller. That's my own preference and I know its odd.

Maybe it's just me but whenever I try and play an FPS with a controller I feel like a complete retard.

 

[NullPointer]

Even for shooting segments?

Bleh.

Haven't had one iota of a problem playing it through the PC version with the xbox controller. Feels like it was tuned for it honestly.

 

[The Antitype]

If it's a caution sign, that means it's an exit and not an entrance. Wherever there is an exit though, an entrance is not far.

Ah. Gotcha. Thanks!

 

[Evolved1]

"It's done when it's done"

Didn't realize this was a reference to the initial install... omg... ZZZzzzzzzzZZZZZzzzzzz

Spoiler

PS3

 

[NullPointer]

"It's done when it's done"

Didn't realize this was a reference to the initial install... omg... ZZZzzzzzzzZZZZZzzzzzz

Spoiler

PS3

At least you didn't have to install the whole thing via an overloaded Steam.

And then decrypt it.

And then install it.

And then have it run like hobo shit.

And then spend the next several days uninstalling and reinstalling drivers, forcing video card settings, modifying text configuration files and Steam launch options, all while keeping windows open to Bethesda support forums and GAF to provide a modicum of hope.

Be grateful bucko! You got it good. ;P

 

[Evolved1]

At least you didn't have to install the whole thing via an overloaded Steam.

And then decrypt it.

And then install it.

And then have it run like hobo shit.

And then spend the next several days uninstalling and reinstalling drivers, forcing video card settings, modifying text configuration files and Steam launch options, all while keeping windows open to Bethesda support forums and GAF to provide a modicum of hope.

Be grateful bucko! You got it good. ;P

Yeah but I heard I'm in for a bunch of texture pop... at the end of the day I guess PC guys still win.

Spoiler

36%..... woohoo!

 

[NullPointer]

Yeah but I heard I'm in for a bunch of texture pop... at the end of the day I guess PC guys still win.

At the end of the day yeah, and now that its running perfectly I've forgotten my pre-Rage rage. Its a great game and one hell of an achievement for the consoles.

 

[bloodydrake]

DoubleBarrel Shotgun + PopRockets ammo vs GearHead MiniCannon Guys....SOOO GOOOD! KAABOOOM!!!

 

[jambo]

Multi GPU is still a no go, from what I recall. But you shouldn't be too worried. This game runs at 60fps very quickly. That is, after you've changed the settings in your GPU control panel accordingly to RAGE's likening.

I'm at a constant 60fps, 2560x1600 resolution and 2xAA. All this on a single HD 5870. (I have CrossFireX disabled)

I'm running at 2560x1600 as well, and the game is going great guns using just 1 of my GTX 570s.

Very impressed, fps is super smooth with vsync and everything turned up.

 

[Echoplx]

Yeah runs great but the sacrifices aren't worth it imo

Wait till you see some of the horrible texture quality.. It also uses static lighting, It's less technically advanced then Quake 2 in that regard :lol