Baemono
Member
Cause you can play Nintendo games in anything that has a screen. No one would go nuts if they'd remove Mario 3 from the NSO, like every entry level phone can play it.
Raphael Colantonio (Arkane Co-Founder) "Why is no-one talking about the elephant in the room? Cough cough (Gamepass)"
RCX
Member
It may be obvious to a lot of us but judging by the majority of replies on that thread there's a huge number of people who will say or do anything to justify a free lunch.
any amount of critical thought exposes GP as a financial black hole that can only exist as long as MS cares about it. And from the looks of events over the last week it seems their patience is almost gone.
GP was founded as a method to kill the competition. It's obvious now that wont happen so they need to sunset it at first slowly and then with a one final killshot (maybe a massive price hike). I'd bet that's coming before the end of 2026. Anyone who likes it should just consider it a great deal for consumers that always had an expiry date.
any amount of critical thought exposes GP as a financial black hole that can only exist as long as MS cares about it. And from the looks of events over the last week it seems their patience is almost gone.
GP was founded as a method to kill the competition. It's obvious now that wont happen so they need to sunset it at first slowly and then with a one final killshot (maybe a massive price hike). I'd bet that's coming before the end of 2026. Anyone who likes it should just consider it a great deal for consumers that always had an expiry date.
ChorizoPicozo
Member
let's a go!!! Phil? what are you wating for, the perfect timing for a price increase is NOW
Buggy Loop
Member
Will someone think of Microsoft's pocket! How can >$3T company find it sustainable! OMG Noooooo don't do it! Cancel Gamepass now or!!!
I will sacrifice myself and stop having a cheap service to save Microsoft's bank account
said nobody
ever
While epic's entire ecosystem are dormant accounts waking up to get the free games. Will somebody think of Tim's infinite money glitch?
Meanwhile..
Prey 2017 that Colantonio actually was part of, might have actually benefitted from gamepass, help it beyond the near flop sales it got after bethesda butchered the marketing. Word of mouth of peoples trying out the game and finding it good.
I will sacrifice myself and stop having a cheap service to save Microsoft's bank account
said nobody
ever
While epic's entire ecosystem are dormant accounts waking up to get the free games. Will somebody think of Tim's infinite money glitch?
Meanwhile..
Prey 2017 that Colantonio actually was part of, might have actually benefitted from gamepass, help it beyond the near flop sales it got after bethesda butchered the marketing. Word of mouth of peoples trying out the game and finding it good.
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StreetsofBeige
Member
If Game Pass is so shitty, why did this guy's new studio (Wolfeye) release their Weird West game day one on GP?
Just skip GP and sell it the normal way.
Just skip GP and sell it the normal way.
In the pricing comparisons people keep showing how expensive games used to be like $40 USD in 1987 being $108 USD in 2025.
But the part that's ignored is that most people only got 1-2 games a year maybe on their birthday and for Christmas. A huge number of people rented games for $3-5 for the weekend. So that could be $12-20 a month. On the low end that's $34/month in today's money for a single game to play Friday night and Saturday that you needed to be sure to drop off early on Sunday to not get charged a late fee.
Even $15/month for what GamePass offers? Hell ya that's an insane deal.
Punished Miku
Gaslighter Pro: 16.7 Fireflops
The game's publisher, Devolver, put it on GP at least twice; 2022 and again in 2023. It's also been on PS+ in 2023. Guy is either a complete idiot (doubtful) or a liar, as I detailed in my earlier posts. If he isn't seeing the amount of sales he would like, it's probably because the game sorta sucks ass. I still bought it cheap, but it's not that great.
Of course it would have helped. Retail already failed him spectacularly. He had to leave his studio because Zenimax was pushing them to make a GAAS shooter to monetize the audience. That's his great studio that he had to abandon, during the retail sales era. MS was the one that gave them an extra year to undo all the microtransactions and attempt to salvage it.
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Zacfoldor
Member
Will someone think of Microsoft's pocket! How can >$3T company find it sustainable! OMG Noooooo don't do it! Cancel Gamepass now or!!!
I will sacrifice myself and stop having a cheap service to save Microsoft's bank account
said nobody
ever
While epic's entire ecosystem are dormant accounts waking up to get the free games. Will somebody think of Tim's infinite money glitch?
Meanwhile..
Prey 2017 that Colantonio actually was part of, might have actually benefitted from gamepass, help it beyond the near flop sales it got after bethesda butchered the marketing. Word of mouth of peoples trying out the game and finding it good.
Instead think of it as a trap.
It really doesn't matter anyway, MS done fucked it up, but originally it was designed to draw in all the consumers by offering almost free games to kill off the competition. Xbox people think competition is good right?
GulfCoastZilla
Member
I mean….unless a game is on PS+ or Gamepass chances are I'm not playing it.
The rare exceptions being a COD or GTA game, that I'll pay full price for.
These systems allow me to play games I wouldn't throw a cent to normally.
The rare exceptions being a COD or GTA game, that I'll pay full price for.
These systems allow me to play games I wouldn't throw a cent to normally.
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Felessan
Member
All of those are sustainable models. They existed 10 years ago, they exist now, they will exist in 10 years. Every one of them have their own target playerbase that games of these models understand and those models sustainable by themselves, without need of explosive growth or cash injection to be viable.
You might not like it or you might not be their target playerbase but it changes nothing.
Bigger risk, for both company and players
Any innovation is a gamble and 90% innovations are trash that make games worse. Only 10% are good and improve games but most time (and most dev) it's hard to say which innovation will be good and which will be trash.
And smaller budget means that there will be corners cut in terms of quality, the lesser budget, the more compromises. The more compromises, the higher chances that some aspects of game will be just straight out bad because they are done cluelessly by amateurs in particular area.
People like graphics and prefer stability over random quality. This is how AAA came to be - safe formula with huge production values. And it sells in order of magnitude more than "innovative" stuff.
It isn't bad.
There is nothing wrong with f2p gaas games - there is a huge market for them especially in more casual layer of players. And they follow same premise - better one prosper, bad one disappear
Genshin is better than 99% of SP slop of 20,000 "XXX simulator" on Steam
StreetsofBeige
Member
If someone is a MP gamer already paying for the Core/Basic plan, the incremental cost of doing one of the GP tiers is only +$5 or +$10 extra per month.
But people trying to make GP look bad just zoom up to the optional top tier plan with day one games which costs the most and ignore the baked in MP which GP and PS both have. GP's middle tier is actually similar to PS top tier. But MS has a top tier with day one games which Sony doesn't have.
If someone doesn't want day one games at the top price, just go GP Standard.
There is a huge market for them but I consider most f2p games a "race to the bottom" scenario where it has hurt the overall quality of games. No more unlocking cheats or characters, you pay for them. No campaigns coming with that multiplayer release anymore due to lack of monetisation in campaign. Adverts that try to make you pay to save your time. Time based gameplay in general spending days waiting for "progress" building unless you pay. Overall I think f2p hasn't been great.
StreetsofBeige
Member
Looking at Arkane games when Raphael was there, his big focus were Dishonored and Prey games.
Problem with his games isn't actually reviews and ratings because I think those games (and Weird West) get decent reviews. Problem is they dont sell great, since the games he makes are niche with unappealing settings and gameplay. He should be lucky his time at Bethesda/Arkane even allowed him to make those games because they probably werent even profitable. Doing a quick google check, Dishonored 2 and Prey only sold a couple million each. A big drop from Dishonored 1.
He should be lucky anyone even gives him a chance and gamers play Weird West on Xbox and PS sub plans to max out player base. Because there's no way this game would sell great if it sold on its own two feet. Despite selling copies, Xbox subs and PS subs, game still only had 2M gamers by end of 2023. The game launched in Q1 2022. If there were no sub plan players, I wouldnt be surprised if sales were only 200,000.
Weird West hits 2 million players in less than two years, indicating success of WolfEye’s debut game | Game World Observer
WolfEye Studios has announced a new achievement for its top-down immersive sim Weird West. The game has reached 2 million players since its launch in March 2022.
gameworldobserver.com
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DenchDeckard
Moderated wildly
Completely agree with you.
I know my contribution to gaming far exceeds many others, and I am in a similar situation to you.
2 x PCs 1 x 4090 - 1 x 9070 XT/9800X3D
1 x PS5 pro
2 x Series X
1 x Switch 2
1 x Switch OLED
1 x Quest 3
I also have 2 children that I often buy games for.
They have PC's too. so quite a lot. Buying games on every platform.
Punished Miku
Gaslighter Pro: 16.7 Fireflops
Looking at Arkane games when Raphael was there, his big focus were Dishonored and Prey games.
Problem with his games isn't actually reviews and ratings because I think those games (and Weird West) get decent reviews. Problem is they dont sell great, since the games he makes are niche with unappealing settings and gameplay. He should be lucky his time at Bethesda/Arkane even allowed him to make those games because they probably werent even profitable. Doing a quick google check, Dishonored 2 and Prey only sold a couple million each. A big drop from Dishonored 1.
He should be lucky anyone even gives him a chance and gamers play Weird West on Xbox and PS sub plans to max out player base. Because there's no way this game would sell great if it sold on its own two feet. Despite selling copies, Xbox subs and PS subs, game still only had 2M gamers by end of 2023.
Weird West hits 2 million players in less than two years, indicating success of WolfEye’s debut game | Game World Observer
WolfEye Studios has announced a new achievement for its top-down immersive sim Weird West. The game has reached 2 million players since its launch in March 2022.
For sure. His games are historically unsuccessful at retail. Dishonored 2 apparently cost more to make than Skyrim. The more you dig into this rant of his, the more stupidity you uncover. Imagine what that would cost in 2025.
He literally left because Bethesda was mandating he make more profitable games. And this is strictly at retail. What a clown.
ChorizoPicozo
Member
... another one:
this "Viral Marketing" is making wonders for Phil's baby
this "Viral Marketing" is making wonders for Phil's baby
Fess
Member
Yep, no need to be ashamed if you use a service to save money where it's possible.
Some use regional pricing errors to get games cheap. I've never done that. I pay my local prices, which currently means ~$95 full price Xbox Series and PS5 games… And through cheap deal GP, $5/month… Yeah I think I'll stay as a GP user while I can
StreetsofBeige
Member
Sounds like the guy is an artsy fartsy kind of dev. Doesn't give a shit about financial viability of a product (no difference really between making games or bars of soap.... make something good that sells and makes money, so everyone is happy). Just wants a job, make whatever weird game he wants (no pun intended!) and hopes the company covers it.
He should be lucky his game even got on sub plan getting some MS and Sony fees, since it's obvious this game wouldnt make it if it had to sell copies the normal way.
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Mr Moose
Member
Devs don't release their games anywhere, publishers do.
Buggy Loop
Member
StreetsofBeige
Member
Fair point. Punished Miku said the same thing to me above.
If Weird West was destined to be such a great selling game, why bother with Xbox and PS sub plans? If it's out of his control, why would Raphael even care then? More sub plan accessibility means more people play his game.
In modern gaming, sub plans are a good back up plan for revenue as MS and Sony will open the pocketbooks. Better than no sub plans where every company with a clunker has no choice but to sell it themselves scraping up sales from a gamer base who doesnt even care for it.
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djjinx2
Member
Another what? YT channel jumping on gaming "news" for clicks to make money?
Sometimes it's hard to be grounded in reality with all the noise and bollocks hot takes posted daily.
What do you mean by another one? Can you elaborate please I'm lost.
Punished Miku
Gaslighter Pro: 16.7 Fireflops
Anything but accepting his responsibility for it. I know, why don't we rant on twitter about making Gamepass worse for consumers, with older games and less appealing options so that my game can still bomb again? Lose / lose for everyone. Great plan Ralph. Limit consumer options so they have to pay more, price collusion from a repeat struggling dev. His publisher wasn't even confident enough in Weird West to not put it on subs 3x.
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Lord Malachite
Member
Gamepass seems to have created a huge amount of entitlement in many gamers. That all games should be either free or "effectively" free through a modest subscription. These games should be coming at a constant clip and offer amazing experiences with almost no investment from the end-user but their time.
That's just not how reality operates. In real life, things cost money. If you want to digest some form of media, you pay for it. Even bad media, you still pay for it in some capacity. Now if you know a piece of media is only so-so or worse, it's highly unlikely you're going to fork over top dollar for that experience. Most people don't rush to see films on opening weekend that look "meh" to them. Most gamers won't pay $70 or $80 for a game that looks like it's a completely mid-experience. They wait for the sale, until it hits the price that has the value for them. Some media makes a profit. Some breaks even. Some post losses.
But we now have a culture where too many people are saying "I'll just wait for Gamepass" for titles regardless of how good they might be. There is a prevailing culture among a wide sect of gamers that games aren't worth buying anymore. The subscription is all that is needed. It doesn't matter if the games is fabulous, the developer worked very hard on it, it's very highly rated among users, and the publisher is selling it at a fair and reasonable price.
"Gamepass works for me. That's all that matters."
It's content undervaluation, plain and simple.
No, not every game is worth $70 or $80. And that's fine. Not everyone should pay full MSRP for everything. But an increasing number of gamers are unwilling to pay any price for a game. Because Gamepass works of them.
Anyone remember Moviepass? It worked for a lot of people too. Until the company couldn't sustain itself any longer because it was paying more for its customers than its customers were paying for it. Now it's operating in a few major cities with much higher rates and a lot more guardrails. The days of consuming all the movies at the cineplex for pennies on the dollar is over.
Games cost money to develop and money to release. As gamers, we should be willing to pay for them. A reasonable price. That price will vary from gamer-to-gamer and title to title. What I think is worth $70 the next person might think is worth only $10. The market did just fine on this model long before Gamepass existed and it would be better for all concerned if it went back to this model.
That's just not how reality operates. In real life, things cost money. If you want to digest some form of media, you pay for it. Even bad media, you still pay for it in some capacity. Now if you know a piece of media is only so-so or worse, it's highly unlikely you're going to fork over top dollar for that experience. Most people don't rush to see films on opening weekend that look "meh" to them. Most gamers won't pay $70 or $80 for a game that looks like it's a completely mid-experience. They wait for the sale, until it hits the price that has the value for them. Some media makes a profit. Some breaks even. Some post losses.
But we now have a culture where too many people are saying "I'll just wait for Gamepass" for titles regardless of how good they might be. There is a prevailing culture among a wide sect of gamers that games aren't worth buying anymore. The subscription is all that is needed. It doesn't matter if the games is fabulous, the developer worked very hard on it, it's very highly rated among users, and the publisher is selling it at a fair and reasonable price.
"Gamepass works for me. That's all that matters."
It's content undervaluation, plain and simple.
No, not every game is worth $70 or $80. And that's fine. Not everyone should pay full MSRP for everything. But an increasing number of gamers are unwilling to pay any price for a game. Because Gamepass works of them.
Anyone remember Moviepass? It worked for a lot of people too. Until the company couldn't sustain itself any longer because it was paying more for its customers than its customers were paying for it. Now it's operating in a few major cities with much higher rates and a lot more guardrails. The days of consuming all the movies at the cineplex for pennies on the dollar is over.
Games cost money to develop and money to release. As gamers, we should be willing to pay for them. A reasonable price. That price will vary from gamer-to-gamer and title to title. What I think is worth $70 the next person might think is worth only $10. The market did just fine on this model long before Gamepass existed and it would be better for all concerned if it went back to this model.
StreetsofBeige
Member
Skimming gameplay clips on YT, Weird West looks like an indie game for $10 or $15 on Steam which noname studios fund and launch themselves. If Raphael had to partner up with Devolver for publishing, and Devolver then dumped it on Xbox and PS subs, goes to show nobody has confidence this game can do well on its own.
ChorizoPicozo
Member
alabtrosMyster
Member
So Gamepass:
- makes enough money to bribe indies and mid budget games less risky (those that are picked, they're not all brought in).
- needs the AAA titles to bring in and keep people on the platform
- the platform holder is only ever incentivized to invest minimally because this is what the platform needs in the long run to be sustainable.
Obviously that cannot work.
- makes enough money to bribe indies and mid budget games less risky (those that are picked, they're not all brought in).
- needs the AAA titles to bring in and keep people on the platform
- the platform holder is only ever incentivized to invest minimally because this is what the platform needs in the long run to be sustainable.
Obviously that cannot work.
Punished Miku
Gaslighter Pro: 16.7 Fireflops
And he's literally trash talking the sub plans that bailed him out with his publisher, not once, not twice, but three times. LITERALLY.
I don't get it
. I bet he's probably struggling yet again and blaming everyone else. Probably not being offered the same GP deals, because why would they? Guess he can go ask Devolver for money again. I'm sure they're eager.
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adamsapple
Or is it just one of Phil's balls in my throat?
SmashJT
ChorizoPicozo
is the only person on GAF who earnestly listens to that dipshits stuff and posts it here like some kind of gotcha 
mrMUR_96
Member
This is an incredibly selfish and small minded opinion. This works for me so I'll just ignore everything else, screw the devs working hard on projects for years. GP is brilliant value as a customer, but it's clear it needs re-balancing and is an unsustainable model for the market as a whole.
Portugeezer
Member
They should've read NeoGAF for the past 5 years.
ChorizoPicozo
Member
you think im earnestly listening to these clowns?
. is the headlines, is the "Viral Marketing"
Everyone is shitting on Xbox, Phil and Game Pass. the High IQ rats are trying to diffuse this narrative by blaming Nutella, Hood and AI....and it's not working!
dem
Member
Devs… and some gamers.. need to realize gaming has passed them by.
The biggest game going is a fucking Roblox gardening simulator.
We got devs out here making Waterworld scale bombs every time they step up to the plate.
Games aren't art. They suck shit. They are time wasters. Fucking admit it and move on.
The biggest game going is a fucking Roblox gardening simulator.
We got devs out here making Waterworld scale bombs every time they step up to the plate.
Games aren't art. They suck shit. They are time wasters. Fucking admit it and move on.
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Buggy Loop
Member
a clown that makes fun of other clowns? that's my kind of clown
Keep digging in the shit mud of youtube channels like you do almost on a daily basis and post on neogaf this fucking grifter slop. Anyone bringing this up with a serious face is an automatic clown. This guy tried to grift KCD 2
Imagine mud digging pig chorizo coming in here all serious with this grifting shit, its hilarious.
"Look what I found! A turd! I can't formulate an opinion so I just look at the turd soup of my youtube feed to paste all over neogaf"
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DenchDeckard
Moderated wildly
We can go into the grey areas of what is a reasonable way to approach game purchases if you like. I personally felt that for me, buying a full priced copy of balders gate 3 and then experimenting to see if a VPN purchase would work due to a thread on this site, is completely different. Some can argue all they want about how I still ripped off Larian for "purchasing" two copies of a game.
Just for clarification, I have never used that VPN trick again. I tried it, it worked and I was done with it. The worst part, I played the xbox version for about 30 mins and then sacked it off.
Now, some could say that is excuses and that is completely fine. But, it's just my honest experience.
Trying to compare that, to people coming on to the internet and saying that GamePass is the worst thing to happen to gaming and it is the destruction of the gaming market and then purchasing Gamepass, playing games from multiple devs and KNOWINGLY cancelling your subscription every month to get your money back is the most scummiest, dirtiest, cheapskate shit possible, imo.
If these people know they are scumbags and do not complain about gamepass etc, they can do what they want and plead ignorance, but complaining about a service you then use and rip off is properly pathetic.
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Majima Everywhere System
Member
Why is no one talking about the elephant in the room…Peacock?!?
Or another middle of the road content subscription that has plateaued.
Or another middle of the road content subscription that has plateaued.
ChorizoPicozo
Member
Keep digging in the shit mud of youtube channels like you do almost on a daily basis and post on neogaf this fucking grifter slop. Anyone bringing this up with a serious face is an automatic clown. This guy tried to grift KCD 2
etcetera
i don't make the discourse, buddy. if you get triggered by the "grift" (which is part of the conversation and shapes the narrative) that's a YOU problem. Just a reminder...some of these "grifters" were/are actively supported by Xbox.
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Buggy Loop
Member
Chorizo's usual post quality, no wonder his youtube feed looks like that
adamsapple
Or is it just one of Phil's balls in my throat?
Chorizo's usual post quality, no wonder his youtube feed looks like that
You said keep digging the shit.
The man really dug through it
Spotify and Apple Music seems to have created a huge amount of entitlement in many music fans. That all songs should be either free or "effectively" free through a modest subscription.
Netflix seems to have created a huge amount of entitlement in many movie fans. That all movies should be either free or "effectively" free through a modest subscription.
DC Universe, Marvel Unlimited, and Comixology Unlimited seems to have created a huge amount of entitlement in many comic fans. That all comics should be either free or "effectively" free through a modest subscription.
But games are special.
Felessan
Member
Maybe it's just not your cup of tea
There are quite a few f2p games that arguably good and not really worse than their p2p counterparts. And their counterparts are not SP games btw, f2p gaas follow either UT/CS or MMO designs with many aspects of gameplay shared between f2p and p2p, those are very different to how things done in SP games
MandingoMcThickens
Member
You feel better now that you've got all that virtue signaling no one gives a shit about out your system?
I work for my money. I spend my money how I please. If I can get something for a good price and the value proposition works for me, then I will. If you have a problem with how others spend their money, then I invite you to tell me what flavor of autism you have where you think a consumer being smart with their money is selfish.
This "support the devs" take that's hot in the games community right now has to be the biggest crock of shit I've seen in quite some time, especially when these devs are forcing sociopolitical views in their work, blaming "gamers," and in some cases pushing for mtx in games themselves, not the publisher.
Fuck right off, nerd.
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Punished Miku
Gaslighter Pro: 16.7 Fireflops
Support the devs, end physical media and used games sales. Boycott Gamefly. Raise prices of all games to $80.
Go for it GAF.
/crickets ....
.... hello?
Poppinfresh
Member
Huh?
No one is forcing anyone to put their games on Gamepass. If a dev decides to partner with MS and have their game release on GP to the detriment of their company, then that's on them.
I mean, if a company can't make good business decisions then fuck 'em. They deserve to go out of business.
I've said it before and I'll say it again: If a company makes a good game it will sell whether it is on Gamepass or not. Expedition 33 proves this point.
Devs are lazy and looking for excuses for poor sales instead of admitting that their products sucked and took too long to develop.
Every game company that closes was probably a game company that shouldn't have been in business anyway and every Dev that gets laid off is just one more Dev that couldn't prove their worth to the company they were working for.
Sinfulgore
Member
People here will never accept this. Gamepass is too easy a target to use as a scapegoat for all the industry's problems. It's a shame really. There are legitimate problems within the industry right now and they can never be addressed if people don't actually understand what they are.
Poppinfresh
Member
Gamepass may not be profitable for MS but that's their problem and it shouldn't have any impact on the money that 3rd party devs get from putting their game on the service. As for 1st Party Devs, again, that's Microsoft's problem and frankly, they have more than enough money to float 1st party developers who are struggling.
That said, if the gaming division of Microsoft isn't profitable, it's not because of Gamepass. It's because their in-house developers have put out nothing but slop for the past 5+ years.
And for 3rd party devs - stop giving us "modern audience" slop, stale gameplay, and for the love of God, stop with the long-ass development cycles. If you're an established studio and can't go from "vague concept" to going "Gold" on a game in 2-3 years then you are doing something wrong.
Naughty Dog, even though they are a Playstation brand, is a prime example of this. A game company that has grown too big for their britches. Assuming this "generation" started in 2020, Naughty Dog should have released at least two new games by now, if not more. Not remakes, not remasters, not upgrades - new games. They, and a bunch of other developers have grown fat and lazy on their own success and all those studios need to be gutted. Bring in fresh talent that actually wants to work, won't complain about crunch, and have a passion for making games.
We need more developers like Falcom and RGG and a hell of a lot less like Naughty Dog and Rockstar
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Astray
Member
All 1P studios are forced to put it on there, wtf are you even talking about here?
Lord Malachite
Member
And that selfish "fuck you, got mine" attitude is exactly why Gamepass has become such a cancer on the industry. Games stopped being a hobby and began becoming a right. It's ludicrous.
And when the industry craters and there's nothing new to bring to Gamepass, those same people will behave as though the developers that died deserved it because they couldn't make any games that are "good enough" to compete.
We continue to hollow out this industry and the consumers are becoming as complicit as the publishers.
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