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In today's IGNXbox Off the Record":

Rare Loses More Employees
Recent sources have told IGN that another wave of Rare employees have left the building. It's natural from time to time to see employees leave any company. But we heard that recently a handful of employees have left due to politics or unhappiness with the directions of various games, and they have quickly been employed by many of the local English publishers such as Codemasters, Eidos, and a few others. Why? Is there a massive problem at Rare? Probably not, but it's never a good thing when development members -- especially valued ones -- leave in numbers.

http://xbox.ign.com/articles/533/533084p1.html

If this is true, then the total of lost employees in the last years is quite significant:

1. Goldeneye team -now at Free Radical Design
2. Martin Hollis - Perfect Dark lead designer now head of Zoonami
3. As much as 10% (25 employees aprox) of the company during the transition from GC to Xbox according to a previous report from IGNCube's Matt C.
4. Today's new report.

 

[Suikoguy]

I must say, awesome purchase MS!

300 million right?

 

[dorio]

I must say, awesome purchase MS!

300 million right?

Get over it. They're not coming back.

Can't wait for Conker!

 

[Suikoguy]

Get over it. They're not coming back.

Can't wait for Conker!

Ironic, cause I own a Xbox, Cube and PS2
I just find it amusing, for all the money they spent, it has done virtually nothing to help their xbox yet.

 

[Ripclawe]

Why? Is there a massive problem at Rare? Probably not, but it's never a good thing when development members -- especially valued ones -- leave in numbers.

"Captain! Is there a problem with the ship????"
"...No problem at all, we are still sailing on course"
"Then why the hell is everyone getting in the lifeboats and smoke coming out of the engine room???"

 

[ImNotLikeThem]

Get over it. They're not coming back.

Can't wait for Conker!

i hope you don't mean "they're not coming back" to nintendo, because i don't think thats even remotely what he was implying. more like, "good job with buying an empty shell of a company microsoft!" or something along those lines.

 

[Mooreberg]

They're not coming back.

That is an accurate statement.

 

[MassiveAttack]

I must say, awesome purchase MS!

300 million right?

Make that $375M and the real reason for Ed Fries leaving MS.

 

[Li Mu Bai]

He wasn't implying that they were coming back. Though now that talent is free to develop cross-platform games, even go to Zoonami. (which is still multi-console though w/close Nintendo ties) The problem is with the Stampers & Rare's directors & upper management. (working conditions) Haven't we been through & established this by ex-Rare employees statements on the old GAF already?

 

[MassiveAttack]

Rare would be 1000 times better off if the Stampers would simply pack up and leave with their millions in tow. How on earth MS agreed to pay $375M with the brothers still running the show simply boggles the mind. If you want to know the real reason so many talented people have left over the last 5 years, look no further than sentence 1 of this post.

 

[Deleted member 284]

If those posts on Fatbabies were to believed (Huge lick of salt), there was a lot of pissed employees complaining about lack of direction and nepotism

 

[JJConrad]

Get over it. They're not coming back.

I don't know... they're still pumping out those GBA games. It said that they are porting the DKC games to the GBA for Nintendo. Since the buyout, they've done more for Nintendo than MS.


I'm just wondering how long until Microsoft cuts their losses. If PD0 underperforms (assuming its ever finished), who will take Rare off of MS' hands?

 

[Alcibiades]

I don't know... they're still pumping out those GBA games. It said that they are porting the DKC games to the GBA for Nintendo. Since the buyout, they've done more for Nintendo than MS.


I'm just wondering how long until Microsoft cuts their losses. If PD0 underperforms (assuming its ever finished), who will take Rare off the MS' hands?

I think those ports had already been done...

 

[Deleted member 284]

I don't know... they're still pumping out those GBA games. It said that they are porting the DKC games to the GBA for Nintendo. Since the buyout, they've done more for Nintendo than MS.


I'm just wondering how long until Microsoft cuts their losses. If PD0 underperforms (assuming its ever finished), who will take Rare off the MS' hands?

Heheh....Doesn't have to be Nintendo, but 1 million dollars and not a pinch higher

 

[Alcibiades]

Rare's IP can still be worth a lot of money, like Banjo-Kazooie, Perfect Dark, etc...

that said, I doubt their use would be well taken unless it was in use by RareWare themselves or Nintendo...

 

[Deleted member 284]

Oh absolutlely, but I don't want Nintendo to buy them back personally. The smugness of the Xbox fans would be enough to melt down these forums.

 

[Suikoguy]

Rare's IP can still be worth a lot of money, like Banjo-Kazooie, Perfect Dark, etc...

that said, I doubt their use would be well taken unless it was in use by RareWare themselves or Nintendo...

The Banjo-Kazooie IP is Overvalued, ESPECIALLY on the Xbox platform.
Perfect Dark on the other hand is not worth 300million.

The purchase of Rare may go down in history as one of the most senseless VGIndustry purchases. Time will tell

 

[Greekboy]

Ironic, cause I own a Xbox, Cube and PS2
I just find it amusing, for all the money they spent, it has done virtually nothing to help their xbox yet.

Hey. I own all 3 as well and wholeheartedly agree with what you said.

 

[SolidSnakex]

Ironic, cause I own a Xbox, Cube and PS2
I just find it amusing, for all the money they spent, it has done virtually nothing to help their xbox yet.

It's RARE though. I think they knew when they bought them that their games come very slowly. But looking at Kameo and Conker, it looks llike the buyout was worth it.

 

[Alcibiades]

Actually, I'd like for Nintendo to own rights to Diddy Kong Racing (and the characters in there), I'd love to see a re-make of that game...

Nintendo would be the most careful company about letting IP get mis-used by other companies, and they probably wouldn't mind canceling shoddy projects deep into development if they were not turning out good (even if it meant losing millions, something I think few 3rd parties would be willing to do, they'd get whatever they could out of a project - look at recent Crash and Spyro games)...

 

[Li Mu Bai]

It wasn't all Fatbabies either, olubode. Regardless, if Donkey Konga outsells both Conker & Kameo, (GBTG is a given) then it was indeed great business acumen to sell Rare on the part of Nintendo. (IMO, it already was) Since this money founded the Nintendo Co. Tokyo Research & Development responsible for it. As well as the DS game they're concurrently developing.

 

[Deleted member 284]

It's RARE though. I think they knew when they bought them that their games come very slowly. But looking at Kameo and Conker, it looks llike the buyout was worth it.

Wait...are you serious? The buyout was worth it for whom? MS or gamers? Cause if its the former, I seriously doubt that either game is going to pull in sales that are relative to the dev time either game took. If its the latter, they would have come out on the GC is MS didn't purchase them. (And in the case of Conker, we would have been seeing a sequel rather than a remake)

 

[Greekboy]

Nintendo would be the most careful company about letting IP get mis-used by other companies, and they probably wouldn't mind canceling shoddy projects deep into development if they were not turning out good (even if it meant losing millions, something I think few 3rd parties would be willing to do, they'd get whatever they could out of a project - look at recent Crash and Spyro games)...

Nintendo wouldn't mind losing millions? Guess that explains why they've jumped aboard the online bandwagon. Let's get serious here.

 

[Li Mu Bai]

It's RARE though. I think they knew when they bought them that their games come very slowly. But looking at Kameo and Conker, it looks llike the buyout was worth it.

Didn't they promise 5 games? (yet will only produce 1 remake & two that have/or will fail sales-wise. Perhaps all 3.)

 

[SolidSnakex]

Wait...are you serious? The buyout was worth it for whom? MS or gamers? Cause if its the former, I seriously doubt that either game is going to pull in sales that are relative to the dev time either game took. If its the latter, they would have come out on the GC is MS didn't purchase them. (And in the case of Conker, we would have been seeing a sequel rather than a remake)

I'm talking about for gamers. But for MS, I think Conker will put up some respectable numbers since it seems to be MS big first party title next year so far. Kameo should do pretty well too as long as it turns out right.

I wouldn't be so sure about Conker even being made if they hadn't went to MS. With how the original sold on the N64 I wonder if Nintendo would've even had any interest in doing another.

 

[Alcibiades]

Nintendo wouldn't mind losing millions? Guess that explains why they've jumped aboard the online bandwagon. Let's get serious here.

losing millions, and losing hundreds of millions (or billions in Microsoft's case) are two very different things...

 

[Nintendo Ate My Children]

Nintendo wouldn't mind losing millions? Guess that explains why they've jumped aboard the online bandwagon. Let's get serious here.

A better way to phrase it might be that Nintendo can afford to lose millions to protect their brand name, rather than being forced to release crappy products simply because they have to in order to stay afloat for another year like most 3rd party companies. For example, Acclaim couldn't afford to delay Driver 3 for another year to make it better without destroying their bottom line and angering stockholders, Nintendo could have done it easily. As history has shown numerous times.

 

[Alcibiades]

Didn't they promise 5 games? (yet will only produce 1 remake & two that have/or will fail sales-wise. Perhaps all 3.)

They promised 5 XBox games in two years, unless they have a surprise up their sleeve, they'll have only released ONE game by this September...

 

[JJConrad]

I'm talking about for gamers. But for MS, I think Conker will put up some respectable numbers since it seems to be MS big first party title next year so far. Kameo should do pretty well too as long as it turns out right.

I wouldn't be so sure about Conker even being made if they hadn't went to MS. With how the original sold on the N64 I wonder if Nintendo would've even had any interest in doing another.

I believe, the N64 version ended up ar about 300K - 400K in the US. Nintendo's made sequels to lesser selling games. Though I doubt they would have permitted a sequel if that game took 4 years to make, like the first.

 

[Deleted member 284]

I'm talking about for gamers. But for MS, I think Conker will put up some respectable numbers since it seems to be MS big first party title next year so far. Kameo should do pretty well too as long as it turns out right.

I wouldn't be so sure about Conker even being made if they hadn't went to MS. With how the original sold on the N64 I wonder if Nintendo would've even had any interest in doing another.

Conker definetly has a shot at selling big, but considering that its a remake with online elements, I wouldn't expect huge numbers.

And Conker was definetly being made for GC. It was being considered even during and after the bombing of the N64 version

 

[Chopin Trusty Balls]

MS completely changed Kameo direction,and as it seems for the better,there are 2 dozen expierenced MS employees at Rare now overseeing the company.

Btw its old new,those people left 2 months ago and half or third of them were management not happy about losing ability to make decisions alone.

 

[DSN2K]

I wonder if Perfect Dark has changed also..... :\

 

[TheGreenGiant]

It's RARE though. I think they knew when they bought them that their games come very slowly. But looking at Kameo and Conker, it looks llike the buyout was NOT worth it.

fixed

 

[gofreak]

It's interesting to think that Rare is going to have to earn Microsoft approx 550m dollars at least before Microsoft makes as much out of Rare as Nintendo has in that one transaction alone (i.e. the sale..not even thinking of how much money Rare made Nintendo before that). Not to speak of any further losses Microsoft has been making because of Rare since they picked them up. It ain't gonna happen this gen, and it could well not happen next-gen either (how much profit did Rare turn in an average generation with Nintendo?). Something to ponder..

edit - and I'm aware the accountants wouldn't calculate things so simplistically, but I'm just looking at the money-in, money-out factors.

 

[ferricide]

But looking at Kameo and Conker, it looks llike the buyout was worth it.

i've played those games and neither is worth $187.5 million. =P

 

[Ghost]

*sigh* It really is heart warming to see just how bitter nintendo fans can be almost 2 years after the event, i guess when you haven't had a good release on your system in a while you have a lot of time to think about what might have been.


And for the non-nintendo fans in the thread (I count a few) as Flemming said, the 'Politics' changes were down to MS sending people into Rare to oversee, these MS people are the ones who made online the focus of the conker remake and the ones who delayed it to get the graphics up to stuff after last e3. And the non-management staff that left we ones dragged out Jerry Maguire style when the managment left.

As for the 5 games, it wasnt just Xbox games, check the PR on MS' site, Rare only have 3 xbox teams, and the only game which MS actually continued was Kameo, I do agree though that all 3 teams should have had one game out by now (they will have released 3 non-nintendo GBA games by the november), but it was MS that delayed them, not rare (although i did hear from one Rare employee that Kameo would be finished quite a while before its eventual release if everything went to plan).

As for 'what a waste of money' i think its pretty telling that in this whole thread theres not one mention of the word 'investment' how many times does it have to be said that MS dont work in the short term, their whole business model is to plough money into the infrastructure at the start to make it easier to get into profit later, they are thinking about where they want to be in 2 or 3 generations time. Fries probably did pay over the odds, but thats what Rare are to MS, infrastructure, a way into a different gaming market, its not just about how many games rare sells, its about the amount of new people buying Xenon (and beyond) because it has games that appeal to them, and then the amount of new 3rd party royalties MS get from publishers looking to cash-in on that new business. Your probably thinking "they dont need rare to appeal to that audience", no? remember Blinx? Id say they do.

 

[----]

Ironic, cause I own a Xbox, Cube and PS2
I just find it amusing, for all the money they spent, it has done virtually nothing to help their xbox yet.

It has already helped the Xbox by hurting the Gamecube. The Gamecube would have been doing at least a little bit better than it is right now if Rare had been releasing 1 or 2 games every year for Gamecube. As a result the Gamecube lineup has been constantly lacking. Look at this holiday season for Gamecube, the big Nintendo titles are Metroid Prime 2 and Paper Mario 2. That's it. I think it's safe to say that stuff like Donkey Kong Racing probably would have been million sellers.

And not all the money MS spent went to Nintendo, half of it went to Rare's other owners. Who now work for Microsoft. Looking at the long term future of the console wars Microsoft is going to need a company that is able to compete with Naughty Dog and Insomniac, the companies that Sony bought. Microsoft made an offer for Naughty Dog and they turned them down. Nintendo fans like to look at things in short term. "Look at how much profit Nintendo made by selling Rare," without thinking about how that affects Nintendo in the longterm. How is MS supposed to catch up to Sony over the next several years if they don't compete with everything that Sony is offerring? If Rare's games won't sell well, then there's not much more MS can do. I think properties like Banjo Kazooie, Killer Instinct, and Perfect Dark still have huge sales potential though. When those games come out and they don't sell at all then you can say it wasn't a good investment.

 

[FightyF]

I wonder how many Rare teams are working on Xenon games at the moment...

 

[GDGF]

*sigh* It really is heart warming to see just how bitter nintendo fans can be almost 2 years after the event, i guess when you haven't had a good release on your system in a while you have a lot of time to think about what might have been.

I know it's not the point you were trying to make, but I'd say (and many would probably agree) that the best Rare games (speaking post buyout) have come out on a Nintendo system...the GBA.

As to the point you were trying to make, I wouldn't expect many responses, as most GCN gamers are too busy playing Tales of Symphonia to care

 

[Ghost]

I know it's not the point you were trying to make, but I'd say (and many would probably agree) that the best Rare games (speaking post buyout) have come out on a Nintendo system...the GBA.

As to the point you were trying to make, I wouldn't expect many responses, as most GCN gamers are too busy playing Tales of Symphonia to care

Were you talking about ---'s post because i wasnt making a point to the nintendo fans

And for the non-nintendo fans in the thread (I count a few)

Maybe you should read it anyway, you might learn a new word towards the end.

 

[DDayton]

"5 games in two years" -- circa e3 2001

Grabbed by the Ghoulies (Xbox)

Banjo-Kazooie (GBA)
Donkey Kong Country (GBA)
DKC 2 (GBA)
Sabreman (GBA)

The question now is whether game #6 will be DKC3 or an Xbox title.

 

[GDGF]

Nope. Unless what you wrote was quoted by someone else and not marked, I was responding to you.




Nintendo fan here, BTW

(Don't really think you could teach me a few words BTW. Honestly.)

 

[gofreak]

It has already helped the Xbox by hurting the Gamecube. The Gamecube would have been doing at least a little bit better than it is right now if Rare had been releasing 1 or 2 games every year for Gamecube.

I'm not so sure. I think the impact of Ghoulies would be minimal. It might have been heartening to know Rare were still there, but I think a lot of people would be wondering what was going on with Rare if all they had released by now was SFA and Ghoulies. In the same way they are now on Xbox..think about it, by this time in the N64's life we had a lot more titles, and of a lot higher quality. If Rare was still on GC, people would expect the same, but Rare haven't delivered in the same way they did last gen...some people ARE downing on Rare because they're still bitter that Rare isn''t with Nintendo, but some of us are just genuinely disappointed as Rare fans. Personally I'm hoping they're still just finding their feet, and next gen will see more frequent, and higher quality output.

Also, my point about Microsoft's investment wasn't assuming Nintendo got all the money. I was simply saying that Microsoft had spent 375m on Rare, and Nintendo had gained 170 or whatever, in the transaction. So from the perspective of that transaction alone, Microsoft was down 375, Nintendo up 170 i.e. roughly a 550m gap (and yes, I know this is simplistic..i'm just looking at the cash flow here, and not even thinking of how much of that 170 was profit for Nintendo on their own investment in Rare etc.). Forgetting about Nintendo, if we're talking about Microsoft's ROI on Rare, it could be quite some time before they see anything. I'd be surprised if they make a return on it next gen. That wasn't an observation from bitter-land, simply something that hit me while reading the thread.

Please don't write off "negative commentary" about Rare as simple Nintendo fan bitterness. I hope, as much if not more than anyone here, that Rare starts delivering the goods, whatever platform they're on. It's just difficult to be positive about Rare's recent past.

 

[Ghost]

(Don't really think you could teach me a few words BTW. Honestly.)

I see, well your doing a great job of hiding your incredible cognitive skills in this thread i must say.


The word was investment BTW.

 

[GDGF]

Oh, I know what you're trying to say, I just don't agree

Investment doesn't really mean jack for those looking to play great Rare games now, does it? 'Investment' sounds like a lame excuse for low productivity IMHO.

You invest enough cash and time, and you'd probably be able to turn any dev house around. Hell, look at what Nintendo did with Retro. The problem comes when you have to ask yourself 'when is enough, enough ?'.


(just to let you know, I am an equal opportunity Rare hater, as the only games of theirs I bought on N64 were GoldenEye and Perfect Dark...the rare I dug died with the 8-bit generation)

 

[dog$]

Sucks to be Rare.

I don't see how the history of this company's relationship with Nintendo is relevant to the news.

 

[MightyHedgehog]

:/

 

[Greekboy]

*sigh* It really is heart warming to see just how bitter nintendo fans can be almost 2 years after the event, i guess when you haven't had a good release on your system in a while you have a lot of time to think about what might have been.

I'd give you that comment back when Rare got sold but get serious. Rare with MS has done fuck all to warrant your comment.

 

[ge-man]

What the hell is happening to Rare? It really sounds like the Stampers need to finally cash in their investments and retire.

 

[Shiggy]

Didn't they lose the director of Sabreman Stampede/Donkey Kong Racing, Blast Corps und Jet Force Gemini this February?