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[Lord Error]

I don't follow that logic at all - care to expand? And what is unfriendly about iOS devices exactly?

I kind of get what he's thinking, but it's flawed thinking. Games for PC platform are proprietary as well, and require hacking and emulation for preservation purposes (hacking so you don't need CD in the drive, and emulation so you can run them under newest Windows in case of old PC games). I don't see that to be any different from consoles which also require emulation for preservation.

Toucharcade is awful. Their writers (Hodapp especially) and userbase only get excited for whatever 99 cent derivative endless runner or dual stick shooter with a cute art style is coming out next.

They are of the thinking that 99c games for meant for iOS and more expensive, better produced games are for dedicated machines like Vita. One of the writers there was actually enthusiastic about Vita for that reason, I guess they just don't think such games have place on iOS, I don't know.

 

[thetrin]

I kind of get what he's thinking, but it's flawed thinking. Games for PC platform are proprietary as well, and require hacking and emulation for preservation purposes (hacking so you don't need CD in the drive, and emulation so you can run them under newest Windows in case of old PC games). I don't see that to be any different from consoles which also require emulation for preservation.

Shocking fact: Every game requires hacking or emulation to preserve forever.

I'm all for content preservation, but it's not realistic.

 

[railGUN]

I kind of get what he's thinking, but it's flawed thinking. Games for PC platform are proprietary as well, and require hacking and emulation for preservation purposes (hacking so you don't need CD in the drive, and emulation so you can run them under newest Windows in case of old PC games). I don't see that to be any different from consoles which also require emulation for preservation.

That's what I was thinking as well - I guess I could understand the argument that iOS games are restricted to specific (iOS) devices, but the Windows platform is proprietary.

I'm also waiting for the justification of labeling iOS as unfriendly...

 

[Cyrano]

Preservation relates to portability of code, not code's emulation. Emulation is, by definition, an imperfect representation of actual code.

 

[Ignis Fatuus]

A man liquidates his life savings to create his dream company, gather industry vets, and make the high budget mobile game they've always wanted to make.

Touch Arcade thinks they should fail.

Telling.

If Ryan retools the game for PC I will become his loudest evangelist to stick it to Touch Arcade's demented hatred of Kickstarter and apparent phobia of quality. That shit really makes me mad. Hell, Ryan should Kickstart a PC version.

 

[onlyindreams]

They are of the thinking that 99c games for meant for iOS and more expensive, better produced games are for dedicated machines like Vita. One of the writers there was actually enthusiastic about Vita for that reason, I guess they just don't think such games have place on iOS, I don't know.

It's fucking idiotic. These devices are so powerful now and there's no reason a big budget title catered to the system can not be successful (see: Infinity Blade).

 

[Durante]

I kind of get what he's thinking, but it's flawed thinking. Games for PC platform are proprietary as well, and require hacking and emulation for preservation purposes (hacking so you don't need CD in the drive, and emulation so you can run them under newest Windows in case of old PC games). I don't see that to be any different from consoles which also require emulation for preservation.

It's completely different. You don't need to emulate a hardware platform to play old PC games (well, except maybe some 20+ year old ones), at worst you just need to provide the correct software environment. Also, modern console hardware will not be emulated at full speed in this decade. Meanwhile, old PC games are readily available, DRM-free and instantly runnable on a wide variety of cheap hardware.

A thought experiment: do you think I'll have an easier time running Legend of Grimrock PC (which I just bought a DRM free version of) 10 years from now or a PS3 PSN game like Comet Crash?

 

[volturnus]

I hope it's failing miserably by the last week and they decide to make it a PC game instead.

 

[soultron]

It's fucking idiotic. These devices are so powerful now and there's no reason a big budget title catered to the system can not be successful (see: Infinity Blade).

Whether or not TouchArcade (and some people on GAF) like it, we'll be seeing lots of more traditional gaming experiences on tablets and smartphones sooner or later. Change and progress in the "touch space" is inevitable.

 

[railGUN]

It's completely different. You don't need to emulate a hardware platform to play old PC games (well, except maybe some 20+ year old ones), at worst you just need to provide the correct software environment. Also, modern console hardware will not be emulated at full speed in this decade. Meanwhile, old PC games are readily available, DRM-free and instantly runnable on a wide variety of cheap hardware.

You're still running most of these games within a proprietary system though, no?

 

[Ignis Fatuus]

Whether or not TouchArcade (and some people on GAF) like it, we'll be seeing lots of more traditional gaming experiences on tablets and smartphones sooner or later.

Whether or not this turns out to be true, it's clear that it won't be happening via Kickstarter so long as Touch Arcade wields the influence that they have.

 

[Buttonbasher]

A man liquidates his life savings to create his dream company, gather industry vets, and make the high budget mobile game they've always wanted to make.

Touch Arcade thinks they should fail.

Telling.

I feel this way about people who say "Kickstarter is a dangerous trend", or "Should we really keep supporting this way of funding?". A product that people are interested in has a chance at existing with the financial help of those people. Because the notion exists that something could go wrong, let's write off the entire concept as evil.

Similarly to how Patrick Klepek was tweeting about how Journalists shouldn't contribute to the Double Fine one, as it would tarnish integrity or something. I can't find his exact tweet, but it was something to those lines.

I'm all for it, if we keep getting interesting projects like this.

 

[Durante]

You're still running most of these games within a proprietary system though, no?

Yes. But between having both software and hardware being proprietary and in control of a single company (consoles, iOS), and having only proprietary software one is clearly less locked down than the other. Especially if the provider of that proprietary software doesn't even control the marketplace (as on PC with MS and Steam, and again unlike cell phones and consoles, where a single entity controls software, hardware and distribution. That's a worst case scenario).

 

[soultron]

Whether or not this turns out to be true, it's clear that it won't be happening via Kickstarter so long as Touch Arcade wields the influence that they have.

Lots of KS projects have pulled off funding miracles in the eleventh hour. I see this being no different. This has plenty of time to succeed.

 

[Ignis Fatuus]

Lots of KS projects have pulled off funding miracles in the eleventh hour. I see this being no different. This has plenty of time to succeed.

Soultron, let's be real here. The current record for a Kickstarter game from an unproven developer is The Banner Saga which just breached $500,000 yesterday with less than a week left. The Banner Saga was already over $200,000 by day four. Right now Republique is still sitting below $70,000 after four days and funding has flatlined. It's just not going to happen, especially with the negative press attempting to nip it in the bud.

 

[D4Danger]

Lots of KS projects have pulled off funding miracles in the eleventh hour. I see this being no different. This has plenty of time to succeed.

It's been said that you get most of your funding in the first and last 3 days. So far they've achieved about 15% of their goal.

 

[acevans2]

The majority of the negativity I'm seeing is related to the platform, so I hope they can expand the potential audience and get more backing.

 

[Myomoto]

The biggest problem I see this game having getting kickstarted is that it is only available for iOS-devices. Most of the 'success stories' on kickstarter has at least been promised to be available on 2+ platforms.

 

[Saty]

All i know is that it reminds me of Experience 112.
http://www.adventuregamers.com/article/id,860

 

[Rhindle]

I wonder if all these people doing iOS Kickstarters have bothered to check with Apple on how they're going to get these games delivered.

Apple might allow a voucher/download code program, but are they going to allow games to be downloaded for free? I doubt it. So these guys had better be building a 30% premium into their funding target.

Also, I doubt this one gets to $500K.

 

[firehawk12]

I wonder if all these people doing iOS Kickstarters have bothered to check with Apple on how they're going to get these games delivered.

Apple might allow a voucher/download code program, but are they going to allow games to be downloaded for free? I doubt it. So these guys had better be building a 30% premium into their funding target.

Also, I doubt this one gets to $500K.

The FAQ or whatever says they met with Apple people to figure out distribution methods anyway.

 

[chickdigger802]

Wait, TouchArcade doesn't want this project to succeed? What the fuck?

EIC got fed up with kickstarter and now TA won't have that stuff no more. Nothing wrong with that. But a missed opportunity especially with a lot kickstarter stuff being on ios.

 

[firehawk12]

What is stopping you from supporting an iOS game? Do you not have an iOS device, or just have no interest in playing games on one?

For me it's both. I'm sure I will get an iOS device eventually, but for a game of this scope, I'd rather it be on a platform that is dedicated to gaming. If it was a 10 dollar PSN game, I'd have no hesitation in supporting it.

 

[indigo-cyclops]

All i know is that it reminds me of Experience 112.
http://www.adventuregamers.com/article/id,860

I was going to mention this way back but didn't get to it. Really interesting game.

 

[Lord Error]

It's fucking idiotic. These devices are so powerful now and there's no reason a big budget title catered to the system can not be successful (see: Infinity Blade).

He's mostly against Kickstarter it seems:

http://forums.toucharcade.com/showpost.php?p=2221591&postcount=27

Kickstarter is everything that is wrong with the "millennial" generation, wholly concentrated into a single web site. Back in my day, if you wanted to open up a lemonade stand, you did everything you could to get the funding together to make that happen. If you couldn't finance it personally, you'd borrow money from whatever family, friends, and fools you can drum up, and be personally responsible for its repayment. You'd then take that money, open your lemonade stand, hopefully turn a profit, then pay everyone back. Alternatively, if you didn't turn a profit or couldn't get your lemonade stand off the ground for one reason or another, you still needed to worry about the money you owed everyone. This caused you to only ask for money when you really believed in your lemonade stand, or, at least, enough to risk your neck for it.

In this crazy Kickstarter-laden world we live in now, the scenario is totally different. You decide on the vague idea that you want to start a lemonade stand, you don't have the means to do it, so you jingle around a change jar with a line on it. You sucker people into giving money to you because they like lemonade, and you offer them some sort of commemorative sticker as "thanks." Meanwhile, while people might be filling up your change jar, you're free at any time to up and decide that you don't want to run a lemonade stand anymore, and instead you're going to sell Kool-Ade, fruit punch, or any other number of derivative things.

In fact, you don't even have to open anything at all. What's stopping you from actually fulfilling your promises? Not Kickstarter, that's for sure.

From their own Help pages:

-Kickstarter does not investigate a creator's ability to complete their project.

-Because projects are usually funded by the friends, fans, and communities around its creator, there are powerful social forces that keep creators accountable.

-At the end of the day, use your internet street smarts.

So, essentially, you don't have to do anything you say you're going to do. Kickstarter gets their 30% rake, and as someone who donated you're left with "powerful social forces" such as complaining on Twitter when things don't pan out.

We're not posting about Kickstarter stuff anymore because of how silly it's getting. Here we have someone looking for half a million dollars based on a four minute video with no gameplay, and three concept images. Anything we post about games in this stage is little more than a post that says "Hey give these people money and cross your fingers."

I appreciate what they're trying to do, but, how many paid games out there that target a hardcore audience even gross half as much money as these guys are asking for on Kickstarter?

 

[soultron]

The last line is particularly bitter.

I hope Republique gets funded if only for the chance to see TA give it coverage.

 

[Pachterballs]

I appreciate what they're trying to do, but, how many paid games out there that target a hardcore audience even gross half as much money as these guys are asking for on Kickstarter?

they nailed this though to be honest.

 

[Ignis Fatuus]

they nailed this though to be honest.

I don't agree. $500,000 is not a lot of revenue unless you live in iOS land. As far as Kickstarters are concerned, if you have a unique and promising concept like this with plenty to show, there's nothing stopping you from pulling half a mil if you solicit the correct audience.

 

[Mrbob]

If Ryan retools the game for PC I will become his loudest evangelist to stick it to Touch Arcade's demented hatred of Kickstarter and apparent phobia of quality. That shit really makes me mad. Hell, Ryan should Kickstart a PC version.

Co signed. Seeing as this isn't looking good I'd help kick start a pc version.

The biggest voice in IOS gaming has pushed against this project. I say forget ios and put it on PC. Dunno why indie developers ignore the pc anymore. I understand putting the game on multiple platforms but the PC should always be one of them.

 

[firehawk12]

Let's make a kickstarter to convince them to make a kickstarter for a PC version!

 

[Margalis]

I feel this way about people who say "Kickstarter is a dangerous trend", or "Should we really keep supporting this way of funding?". A product that people are interested in has a chance at existing with the financial help of those people. \

I'm not a big fan of this kickstarter fad but that's very different from hoping a project will fail.

If anything I prefer the way Payton is doing it - something that needs funding because it's new IP and an unproven dev, rather than the nostalgia plays or riffs on existing IPs and established creators that many kickstarter projects rely on.

 

[soultron]

I'm not a big fan of this kickstarter fad but that's very different from hoping a project will fail.

If anything I prefer the way Payton is doing it - something that needs funding because it's new IP and an unproven dev, rather than the nostalgia plays or riffs on existing IPs and established creators that many kickstarter projects rely on.

Furthermore, this is something that's designed to leverage the strengths of the platform, just like Superbrothers S+S EP before it.

 

[B_Rik_Schitthaus]

The majority of the negativity I'm seeing is related to the platform, so I hope they can expand the potential audience and get more backing.

When I went to the KS page I had already put aside about 20dollars to give to the project, then I saw it was IOS only, no PC version so I didn't pledge.


I can understanding them wanting to be one of the few pushing the iPad tech, but they seem to have a loathing for safety nets, Payton needs to understand that he doesn't have Kojipro or MS bankrolling him, and for this to be his first independent project seems perilous.

I'm not a big fan of this kickstarter fad
...

-_-

 

[Reg]

so if I don't have an ios device, there is no point in chipping into the kickstarter?

 

[soultron]

so if I don't have an ios device, there is no point in chipping into the kickstarter?

I don't and I'm still doing it. More experiences like this will make me want an iDevice.

 

[thetrin]

For me it's both. I'm sure I will get an iOS device eventually, but for a game of this scope, I'd rather it be on a platform that is dedicated to gaming. If it was a 10 dollar PSN game, I'd have no hesitation in supporting it.

I don't blame you. I was just curious. If you don't own an iOS device at the moment, then why WOULD you pledge? I just wanted to get a better understanding of your reasons.

 

[Ignis Fatuus]

I don't and I'm still doing it. More experiences like this will make me want an iDevice.

From the Kickstarter page:

We estimate that République will cost north of $1 million to complete. After months of meetings and due diligence, we believe that we can raise the necessary additional funds to complete République from potential outside investors, but there is some risk that our efforts will be unsuccessful. Before we enter into any financial agreements, we want to prove through Kickstarter that there is a market for a serious AAA mobile game. While we may eventually have to share future profits from the game in order to finance development costs, we have no intention of sacrificing quality, creative control or IP ownership.

I think the endgame here is that they don't meet their goal and realize that the venture may be riskier than they believed. Ideally they then take a couple months to retool the game for PC, relaunch, rake in hundreds of thousands in funding. I suspect that people will be extra sympathetic when they hear about how Touch Arcade savaged them on the iOS platform. It'll be more plausible to wait for a platform switch rather than trying to force the dominant Touch Arcade philosophy to change.

 

[Pachterballs]

should have started as a PC title with iOS hooks at the higher $ tiers.

if this fails as a KS, its going to carry the stink of failure and fade away

 

[thetrin]

I don't and I'm still doing it. More experiences like this will make me want an iDevice.

if only there were more people like you in the world.

I'm not a big fan of this kickstarter fad but that's very different from hoping a project will fail.

What part of kickstarter is possibly unsavory?

 

[B_Rik_Schitthaus]

so if I don't have an ios device, there is no point in chipping into the kickstarter?

From the KS.

DIGITAL EDITION: The complete République game for iOS. (iPhone 4 & up, iPod Touch 4 & up, iPad 1 & up)


You could just to help the project and if you have plans to get one in the future you may as well do this in preparation, but I don't ever want a IOS device and don't want to start funding projects that I can in no way enjoy on completion.

 

[Pachterballs]

What part of kickstarter is possibly unsavory?

There's a KS thread for that and already discussed. No accountability etc etc. lots of it is blind faith. People running off with the money.

 

[firehawk12]

I don't blame you. I was just curious. If you don't own an iOS device at the moment, then why WOULD you pledge? I just wanted to get a better understanding of your reasons.

Hah, yeah. I think if this was iOS + some other platform, I'd be much more interested anyway.

 

[soultron]

EDIT: Ignis Fatuus restored sense.

 

[Ignis Fatuus]

You really think Payton, a highly visible industry figure, would do that?

He's addressing a tangent, not saying it's relevant to this particular case.

 

[thetrin]

There's a KS thread for that and already discussed. No accountability etc etc. lots of it is blind faith. People running off with the money.

Yeah, Brian Fargo, Timc Schafer and Ryan Payton are totally going to run off with our money. It's a legit fear if you're talking about people you have no idea about. That really doesn't apply here, especially when there are so many journalists descending on the situation.

 

[soultron]

He's addressing a tangent, not saying it's relevant to this particular case.

I'm tired and it seems I'm also irritable right now, my apologies. Will edit.

 

[Pachterballs]

The question wasn't about RP. It was "What part of kickstarter is possibly unsavory?"

 

[numble]

I went back a few pages and was surprised to see that disgusting little rant by Touch Arcade. Never heard of the site before but if it's as big as you guys say, then it seems that the iOS gaming press is determined to bury this game rather than support it. A marked contrast to the kind of reception the project would get on PC, just sayin'. I can't stand snobs like Hodapp so I'm rooting for this Kickstarter a lot more now and I'll even chip in a bit as a symbolic gesture; but when it inevitably fails to meet the goal I sincerely hope that Ryan will consider changing the platform to greener pastures.

Ryan, I think certain hard realities will become clear from all this. The audience you're targeting is content with cheap titles and has been conditioned to expect them. Your vision is being met not only with muted enthusiasm, but with outright hostility and conservative snobbery. A lot of people are indeed fascinated by your concept, but those people are by and large not the audience you have aimed the game at. I'm sure this is nothing you don't already suspect yourself, and I can't even imagine how disappointed it must make you feel, but you should take solace in the fact that you have a good idea. I have no doubt that it could thrive on PC.

Frankly, this game is too good for the likes of Touch Arcade.

Touch Arcade isn't refusing to cover it because of its cost, but because it's a Kickstarter project. Maybe they are deluged with iOS Kickstarter PR requests.

They cover expensive games too. They gave Chaos Rings II, which is $17.99 on iPhone and $19.99 on iPad, 4.5 stars. And 4 stars for Soul Caliber and Final Fantasy III, priced at $14.99 and $15.99. And you can see here the ton of reviews and articles about $9.99 games (presumably what Republique will cost), most with high scores: http://toucharcade.com/category/prices/999/

I think most people dislike Touch Arcade because they seem to give everything high reviews, and most stuff is 1 or 2 bucks. It's not a great place to get actual reviews because they seem to say every game is great.

 

[chickdigger802]

Touch Arcade isn't refusing to cover it because of its cost, but because it's a Kickstarter project. Maybe they are deluged with iOS Kickstarter PR requests.

They cover expensive games too. They gave Chaos Rings II, which is $17.99 on iPhone and $19.99 on iPad, 4.5 stars. And 4 stars for Soul Caliber and Final Fantasy III, priced at $14.99 and $15.99. And you can see here the ton of reviews and articles about $9.99 games (presumably what Republique will cost), most with high scores: http://toucharcade.com/category/prices/999/

I think most people dislike Touch Arcade because they seem to give everything high reviews, and most stuff is 1 or 2 bucks. It's not a great place to get actual reviews because they seem to say every game is great.

lol reviewing ios games must be tough. Especially with the low price of many games. Is it really wrong to break down a game for minor faults... if it's only a buck?

 

[AshMcCool]

Talking about missing your audience. Make it PC too - they will come.