I don't know anything about the site apart from the evident fact that the guy who runs it is a self-important twit with an agenda.
It is rather sad that this is a site with so much clout.
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Republique Kickstarter by Ryan Payton - NOW FOR PC AND MAC! [Ended, $555K funded]
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I don't know anything about the site apart from the evident fact that the guy who runs it is a self-important twit with an agenda.
It is rather sad that this is a site with so much clout.
They've made a decision to stop all Kickstarter coverage, though. They may be getting a lot of Kickstarter PR requests. I don't agree on the blanket ban, though.
Anyway, it's obviously not because of cost or because it is a "core game", as you can see that they've given good coverage even to $20 Square Enix "core" games.
He doesn't like Kickstarter and wants Kickstarters to fail. It's childish, but it's not because of some casual game ethos. He'd want a $5,000 Kickstarter for a Free or 99¢ game fail as well.
Ignis Fatuus
Banned
And thus begins the rush to defend Touch Arcade anew; better protect that mothership, right? If you didn't want iOS versus core gamers to be the narrative, I'm not sure why you'd be so eager to fuel it. Frankly anyone who wants to defend Touch Arcade after that latest bit of dickery is never going to see eye to eye with me on gaming.
Games journalist should be covering the news and this is news. So, there is something wrong with TouchArcade.
What mothership? The only time I've visited that dumb site is to see how they covered $9.99 and up games.
Do you think there favorable coverage of $9.99 to $19.99 iOS games really indicate a desire to see expensive games, or core games suffer? They've even given a good rating to Max Payne, a "core" game which many people in the iOS thread says plays like crap (which is why I didn't buy it).
You continue to inject this casual vs core argument. iOS is all casuals, come to us, etc etc. All the TouchArcade statements are the same childish opposition to Kickstarter projects, NOT about the eventual price of the game or the genre or audience.
The fact they gave a good rating to Max Payne, shows that there is something wrong with TouchArcade. The fact that a producer that worked on MGS, Halo, and other games is working on a game for iOS is news and the fact they are not covering it shows that there is something wrong with TouchArcade. But, all hail Apple.
TA is not Apple, what are you talking about? I agree that it's childish and stupid to not cover Kickstarter projects. I disagree that the reason they are choosing not to cover it is because it will not be a cheap/free game and because it is not a "casual" game. Where do you see a problem with that argument?
Ignis Fatuus
Banned
If you can't see that the man in charge of that site has something personal against this specific project after that unnecessary and vile tweet, then I think you must be blind. How many times does he have to mention the budget before you'll concede that it's about more than just Kickstarter? I think he's bitched and moaned about the $500,000 target in every single one of his acerbic messages thus far. It is absolutely about the budget and the type of game Ryan is aiming to create.
There are plenty of games they cover with $500k and up budgets. They are complaining about asking the public for a $500k Kickstarter.
Ignis Fatuus
Banned
Not according to him.
You can't have it both ways numble. You can't be the defense force for both Republique and Touch Arcade. But watching you try is amusing and instructive.
That isn't the main part of what they're saying. It doesn't even say much, besides emphasizing his earlier point that he thinks budgets should be earned back in sales. Read the entire post.
Even the tiny Whale Trail had a quarter million budget, Sword and Sworcery was an indie 2D game costing over $200k. Gameloft games probably have a lot more. And we know the Infinity Blades, Real Racing, Dead Space, Mass Effect, etc. had high budgets.
It's still about asking the public for $500k.
Ignis Fatuus
Banned
I'd love to type up an essay right now but the Wasteland 2 livestream is starting. Can you at least admit that a $20,000 budget casual game would not have inspired the same venom?
I think he would still say similar things if a $20k Kickstarter developer wanted to fly to Chicago to convince Touch Arcade to give them PR.
You seem convinced of an opposition to games priced over 99¢/free and "core" games. But what do you think of their past coverage of core games or high-budget games costing $9.99 and more? Does it seem to reflect your argument about only liking casual games and cheap games?
There are 97 Kickstarters for iOS, each one has probably asked TA for some PR:
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/search?term=ios
A lot of them are casual games asking for $20k or less, but they aren't being covered. Is TA rejecting giving them coverage because they dislike such games?
Ignis Fatuus
Banned
Then you are being willfully blind. Again, he keeps highlighting the huge budget at every single opportunity and some of his earlier tweets were only about the huge budget, comments that just wouldn't exist if this was a casual game. You simply don't want to see what's right in front of you. Beyond that, others have noted that it's truly twisted to say there's nothing wrong with Touch Arcade in light of the unprofessionalism they've shown throughout the whole process. Do you think that Kotaku could have pulled such a dick move without incredible backlash? The core gamers would have rioted.
The iOS gaming market, press, and community are different from their PC counterparts. We are now seeing just how different. Your stubborn proposition that there is no difference does not pass any test based in reality.
There are 97 Kickstarters for iOS, each one has probably asked TA for some PR:
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/search?term=ios
A lot of them are casual games asking for $20k or less, but they aren't being covered. Is TA rejecting giving them coverage because they dislike such games?
They are unprofessional. They talk about the budget, but they talk about it being a Kickstarter even more. They mentioned it being a hardcore game once. If Whale Trail (a definitively casual game) was asking for its $250k budget on Kickstarter, I'm sure they would say the same thing.
You seem convinced of an opposition to games priced over 99¢/free and "core" games. But what do you think of their past coverage of core games or high-budget games costing $9.99 and more? Does it seem to reflect your argument about only liking casual games and cheap games? That is the reality-based test that I propose you take.
Ignis Fatuus
Banned
You do not dispute the fact that the core gaming press would never have reacted to the project like this, and that core gamers would not have tolerated it. I'm assuming that you're tacitly accepting that there are differences. You also point out some projects that were ignored, but none that received venomous tweets over their requested budget.
In response to your test, I would say it's not at all inconsistent with my argument. They have no excuse not to cover those games, and I'm not arguing that they hate all expensive games anyway. I am arguing that they don't appreciate core gaming experiences like core gamers do. With the PC based Kickstarters there has been an enthusiasm, a hunger for these games amongst gamers and journalists alike. That demand spread the word like wildfire and propelled donations into the millions.
When core gamers look at these Kickstarters we see games we can't wait to experience, and we do all we can to make that happen. When Touch Arcade looks at them, they think no one should bother and that they should shit on the project for daring to request a high budget.
And that illustrates perfectly the difference in how the two demographics think. One is awash in mediocrity and content to wallow in it, turning their nose up at anything that is not delivered to them on a silver platter. The other will fly to the moon and back for you if only they could get a shot at excellence. If Ryan ever chooses to come home to the community he belongs to, I have no doubt that we would prove it.
To Ryan I say again: Do not cast pearls before swine. Come home. We're waiting.
They wrote an article on April 5 talking about how they wouldn't even support Kickstarters for all those small projects--focusing on PC game trying to get Kickstarted for $10k that failed, and now became an iOS Kickstarter project. And the forum post was a continuation of that theme of not supporting Kickstarters. Whether it is in the form of a venomous tweet or those articles or forum posts, the end result is that they don't support them.
They don't even support them when they are those casual games asking for budgets $10k and under. Does this lack of support suddenly mean they don't appreciate casual games?
Sounds like you are, but I may have misinterpreted your posts.Ignus said:
Ignis Fatuus
Banned
It's a shame that this got swallowed up by the latest Touch Arcade insanity, but it's actually a pretty good interview. Particularly this part:
I had a feeling that the "whether or not the game gets made is your choice" bit in the pitch had to be untrue. Kickstarter is a very recent thing, there's no way they could've developed the game this far without a different plan. When the funding fails, they're going to bet the farm and get the game done anyway. I'm guessing that Ryan is not going to bend on making it multiplat. The game will come out as it was envisioned. It'll be fun to see Touch Arcade forced to cover it.
And then I suppose we'll have a final, complete answer to all the questions. You've got balls, Ryan. I commend you for your courage, though we'll have to wait and see if it be wisdom as well.
Hydrogen Bluebird
Member
This.
I like how Ryan wants to create core games w/ controls that are specifically made for touch devices but I won't ever purchase any iOS device but I will get an android tablet in the future.
PC/Vita would be great too.
onlyindreams
Banned
Why won't you ever get an iOS device?
brain_stew
Member
You plan to buy a tablet yet won't ever consider an idevice? Do you like punishing yourself or something?
mescalineeyes
Banned
Don't go down that rabbit hole, man.
No you're not; I did the same!
Seriously.
Pachterballs
Banned
KS moneys not going up. DOA
My mind is boggling. Some of this has to be satire, surely?
No wonder I'm avoiding this thread.
HP_Wuvcraft
Banned
So, that TouchArcade article is all kinds of shit.
Are you happy now?
ProgramFighter
Member
I'd like to pledge $50 on this but I've never used Kickstarter before. Just have a few questions. Do they take the money out your account the moment you pledge or only after the deadline? Also, if the goal is not reached, is the money still taken and the company just uses whatever was pledged for the game (and hopefully not just pocket it?) or those who pledged keep their money and the project is dead?
TouchMyBox
Member
There are plenty of things you can do on android that you can't do on iOS without jailbreaking.
And with the waiting times for jailbreaks increasing each time, It's not hard to see why one would be more attracted to android.
The biggest example for me is that I would be unable to stream my video library from my freenas box to an ipad without a jailbreak.
iPads are pretty neat and whatnot too, so let's not turn this thread into android vs iOS.
StevePharma
Member
Money is taken at the final day the KS closes.
If goal is not met, no money is taken from you.
You can change the amount of your pledge even after you've backed a project if you so desire.
ProgramFighter
Member
Thank you much! Will be pledging after work then. Hopefully this project can at least build up enough steam right before deadline to get some professional investors interested.
I think it may be a subtle turnoff to keep banging on the AAA-ness as a major selling point.
When I think of a AAA title I think of a bland game that I've played before.
Some of the mechanics sound interesting but they also have the potential to go in a very familiar direction. A game where you stealth around behind cover and shoot dudes with tranq darts - aren't there 100 games like that? A game where you can alter the environment by messing with random objects...so Ghost Trick?
Not to say the the game will be overly familiar, but my mind naturally goes to that place when you harp on how it is a AAA game.
I don't think the people funding KS games are doing it because they want AAA titles - every major publisher is pursuing a AAA-or-bust strategy. If anything constantly hitting the AAA theme makes me think of cool punk bands that got big, got over-produced and lost their edge.
Having high production values is great but I'm not sure if that's anything more than an nice bonus. Making that a main selling point may be detrimental.
When I think of a AAA title I think of a bland game that I've played before.
Some of the mechanics sound interesting but they also have the potential to go in a very familiar direction. A game where you stealth around behind cover and shoot dudes with tranq darts - aren't there 100 games like that? A game where you can alter the environment by messing with random objects...so Ghost Trick?
Not to say the the game will be overly familiar, but my mind naturally goes to that place when you harp on how it is a AAA game.
I don't think the people funding KS games are doing it because they want AAA titles - every major publisher is pursuing a AAA-or-bust strategy. If anything constantly hitting the AAA theme makes me think of cool punk bands that got big, got over-produced and lost their edge.
Having high production values is great but I'm not sure if that's anything more than an nice bonus. Making that a main selling point may be detrimental.
Alexios
Cores, shaders and BIOS oh my!
Yeah, too many AAA games like Ghost Trick out there..? I don't think stealth adventures are common either but anyway... The description aint responsible for where your mind goes, all they wanted to explain is a meaty game with high production values (read: nice graphics & stuff) you don't commonly see on iOS. They already have that much to show for it, it's not like it would go down well and be more popular if they said fuck it and made the rest of the game look like crap in comparison to what they have now. Graphics do help, seeing the hype for the likes of Infinity Blade. And they can arguably offer better atmosphere and so enhance the product for more esoteric adventure like experiences if that's part of their plan. I doubt that when they started the concept they considered either this or cubemen graphics, the team obviously includes artists too, and they have a given vision.
The question wasn't addressed at me but since I pretty much said the same I'll give a few of my reasons.
- Overpriced
- Closed Ecosystem
- Due to new revisions every year it's necessary to upgrade every 1-2 years to keep up with the latest games
Plenty of other reasons. If the devices weren't overpriced, netting Apple a $200-300 profit on each phone, I'd probably jump in. As it stands if I want a reasonable price I'd have to buy an outdated iPhone that will be obsolete in months if it isn't already (and I'd probably be paying the same price for it as I would for a new Android phone that has beefier specs).
1) They are NOT overpriced in the least. The cost of various idevices is directly on par with the prices of competing Android products. Comparable tablets cost as much more more than the iPad as do Android phones. Apple's computer products ARE overpriced, but their iOS devices are right in line with the rest of the industry.
2) Closed ecosystem is a thing. It has its negative points as well as its positives. It has ultimately resulted in a higher quality selection of software available, however.
3) Not exactly true. Even the most demanding games still function on the first OpenGL ES2 device (the iPhone 3GS). With Android, the need to upgrade is much more severe as even phones just one year old often struggle with new releases.
Lastly, what good are the "beefier specs" in an Android phone when they aren't even properly exploited? iOS simply runs smoother and faster as Apple has customized it specifically for the hardware platform. The nature of Android has resulted in continual performance hiccups across the platform that beefier specs never seem able to solve.
The open nature of Android is great and I could understand your preference for it, but your arguments AGAINST iOS are all off base.
Vyse The Legend
Member
Yeah, this thing has flatlined. It only went up like 1k since the last time I checked (12+ hours ago). Where's the marketing push?
Overpriced? iPhones are the same price as comparable Android phones - cheaper in some stupid cases. (Thanks Verizon!)
If you're in the US, the carriers offer the largest subsidy for iPhones. They offer the iPhone for $199 on contract and $649 off-contract, while other $199 phones are $549 off-contract. Even if you don't like iPhones, it makes more economic sense to get a $199 iPhone and sell it.
I don't know how you can mention old iPhones being obsolete with Android phones in the same breath. Most games still target iPhone 3GS since it is still the #3 most sold phone in the US (since its now offered free on contract). You have a lot more app-compatibility problems with say a Motorola Droid or Nexus One, which were phones released much later than the 3GS.
still rocking a 3.5 year old blackberry, right here! stuff like République makes it tempting to upgrade to an iphone but the device i have now pretty much does everything i need it to. the impetus to drop a couple hundred dollars and sign up for a new contract just isn't there.
and this far into the game, i'd hate to kill my streak of having never owned an Apple product.
and this far into the game, i'd hate to kill my streak of having never owned an Apple product.
Pie and Beans
Look for me on the local news, I'll be the guy arrested for trying to burn down a Nintendo exec's house.
not even reaching 100k yet means this seems to be dead. Time to tool up and either
-pitch this to Sony. $500,000 for a Vita exclusive -- where you can keep all the touchscreen stuff and an analog stick for controlling the girl -- seems like a pretty good deal to me when the system has a big blank future schedule ahead.
-aim for the PC market as mostly all Kickstarters do, but the opportunity for that fresh Kickstarter angle has kind of been lost. "Sorry PC owners, don't know what we we're thinking... hug it out?"
- massively scale back the production values of the project. Go for a cel-shaded simplistic style, 2D assets over 3D, getting mo-cap done and detailed 3d models with animation and lip-syncing and so forth was misunderstanding the iOS user-base. Its about quick and quirky gameplay elements, be they a massively over-produced Punch-Out game with loot and moreish qualities (Infinity Blade) or retro indie stuff like Canabalt, not HD console production values. If the gameplay quirk is clever and enjoyable, the sales will come from that instead. I'm not sure, but is the Doublefine game going to be 2D or 3D, or I guess the original plan may have changed considerably anyway.
You can't aim at a marketplace of $1-5$ games with the top hits and time-wasters being idle games getting released in batches of a hundred a day and not go in with some level of compromise. If you still want to make the AAA HD 3D blockbuster adventure, you have to go the conventional route and find a pub or deal and aim for the relevant platforms instead. The desire to stick on iOS to 'prove a point' or something isn't the kind of business sense and adaptability you want to be wielding when, as I understand, so much has been put on the line and into this outfit already.
-pitch this to Sony. $500,000 for a Vita exclusive -- where you can keep all the touchscreen stuff and an analog stick for controlling the girl -- seems like a pretty good deal to me when the system has a big blank future schedule ahead.
-aim for the PC market as mostly all Kickstarters do, but the opportunity for that fresh Kickstarter angle has kind of been lost. "Sorry PC owners, don't know what we we're thinking... hug it out?"
- massively scale back the production values of the project. Go for a cel-shaded simplistic style, 2D assets over 3D, getting mo-cap done and detailed 3d models with animation and lip-syncing and so forth was misunderstanding the iOS user-base. Its about quick and quirky gameplay elements, be they a massively over-produced Punch-Out game with loot and moreish qualities (Infinity Blade) or retro indie stuff like Canabalt, not HD console production values. If the gameplay quirk is clever and enjoyable, the sales will come from that instead. I'm not sure, but is the Doublefine game going to be 2D or 3D, or I guess the original plan may have changed considerably anyway.
You can't aim at a marketplace of $1-5$ games with the top hits and time-wasters being idle games getting released in batches of a hundred a day and not go in with some level of compromise. If you still want to make the AAA HD 3D blockbuster adventure, you have to go the conventional route and find a pub or deal and aim for the relevant platforms instead. The desire to stick on iOS to 'prove a point' or something isn't the kind of business sense and adaptability you want to be wielding when, as I understand, so much has been put on the line and into this outfit already.
Ignis Fatuus
Banned
I don't think it's too late. If PC were made the lead platform and not just an afterthought, I think it would still be successful.