Yup. Creative control (hopefully) = a better game
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Republique Kickstarter by Ryan Payton - NOW FOR PC AND MAC! [Ended, $555K funded]
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Yup. Creative control (hopefully) = a better game
This logic only works if they never expect to release the game, or ever generate revenue.
Here's a really simple income statement(keep in mind it would actually be much more complicated since their dev cycle seems like it will be split about 50/50 across their 2012 and 2013 tax return)
Assuming the game was developed and released in the same year:
Revenue
500,000 - Kickstarter Money
490,000 - Sales(assume 70,000 sales, at $10 less Apples 30% cut, so $7 per)
990,000 - Total Revenue
Expense
500,000 - Dev Costs(just assuming they spend the exact amount they received from KS)
490,000 - Gross Profit
The main difference between using Kickstarter as a source of capital and venture capital, or personal funds is that most of the more traditional methods of funding are not subject to tax. Kickstarter funds are seen as plain old sales revenue in the eyes of the IRS. In the situation above, if Camoflaj had saved up $500,000 of their own money, or received the $500k from an investor, they would have paid no tax at all, since the expenses would be used to cancel out the dev costs, rather than the Kickstarter money.
Like I said, it would be more complicated if things were split between 12/13, but long story short, the money would eventually be taxed. Though there is no state tax in Washington, they'd be paying somewhere between 25-39% in federal income tax.
I'll be there for the PC or Vita version (Payton has commented that he'd love to bring it to Vita). I'll donate something, the project has always seemed top shelf, but the announcement of PC/Mac versions and my 2 favorite voice actors has really put it over the top (Nolan North completes the Trinity).
NervousXtian
Thought Emoji Movie was good. Take that as you will.
Wait, where is this line of thinking coming from? His vision of the game is what will be made regardless of KS going through.
This isn't a game that wasn't being made any other way, it was going to be made. This fails, nothing changes.
I felt that from the start, and they've confirmed it.
EternalGamer
Banned
I don't know why everyone assumes it would be better for this new team to have to work without constraints. Sometimes contraints are good.
George Lucas had to work with an editor, producers, and within a budget on the first three Star Wars movies. He didn't have to answer to anybody when he made the sequels.
This isn't Payton's (or the other members of the team for that matter) first blockbuster/AAA/whatever game. I understand stand your point though. Having constraints makes you more focused but I think we can agree that the positives of creative freedom outweight the negative right?
That's a whole lot of writing to show that money spent in expenses are not taxed as profit, or to put it another way expenses are deducted from revenue to arrive at taxable profit. As most Kickstarters claim that the money is being raised towards development costs, that money is not taxed, it doesn't matter if it is originally labeled as sales revenue or not.
Your balance sheet assumes that sales will be equal with Kickstarter and without Kickstarter. Which is wrong. There would be more sales without Kickstarter, since Kickstarter "sells" software to those that donate. It also assumes that traditional funding from one's savings are not a tax or money from an investor does not add a "tax," which is wrong--your income has been taxed already in the past, and investors ask to share in profits. Or that Kickstarter doesn't create additional expenses that can be tax-deductible--merchandise, flying people out, adding people's voices and faces to the game, etc.
Father_Brain
Banned
Looks like yesterday's boost has faded pretty quickly. It's currently trending towards around $12K today, when they need to average over $39K per day for the remaining week.
This is true. Our start up was pretty aimless until we met someone who will kick our ass to meet milestones.
MrCunningham
Member
Hmm, I was expecting the David Hayter boost to last longer than a day. But it seems like they can't generate enough hype, beyond smaller interest spikes.
Reluctant-Hero
Member
Upped my pledge from $10.84 to $60.84. Crossing my fingers for this one, but I don't think it'll make it. =(
exmachina64
Banned
That's not necessarily true. I'd posit that successful Kickstarters actually increase sales.
Double Fine Adventure had over 87,000 backers. Those are "lost sales," sure, but without the Kickstarter money the project wouldn't exist in the first place. Double Fine is an exception, since most projects have far fewer backers. Republique is also an exception. Currently, Republique has approximately 5,000 backers and might need 10,000 total to reach $500,000. Obviously, the high profile projects we've seen intend to sell hundreds of thousands or millions of copies.
Even in the case of Republique, the additional funds Camouflaj receives would be used to improve the game, attracting more customers because of the resulting higher quality.
To say Kickstarter lowers potential sales ignores these factors.
Ultimately, a developer has to decide whether enough copies will be sold to make the project worthwhile. But thankfully, the Kickstarter funds ease the financial blow a developer would receive if their game isn't popular.
Deadly Cyclone
Pride of Iowa State
So, this thing is moving again. Was at $170k yesterday now at $234k... I wonder if the last 7 days will push this thing over the top?
exmachina64
Banned
It might.
onlyindreams
Banned
Everyone should up their pledges to the $50/$60 journal tier and we'd be alot closer 
Ignis Fatuus
Banned
Everyone should up their pledges to the $50/$60 journal tier and we'd be alot closer
You're right, the average pledge is still not very high. Fuck it, I upped from $30 to $100 for the collector's addition.
Haunted
Member
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=36822314&postcount=336Experiment 112 did this awesomely. There's a demo of it out there if people want to try.
internet high five
Pachterballs
Banned
well, the last minute swarm will push it past 500k with any luck. either way, 8-4 was pimping this; RP has friends in the industry.
Jasper Avenue
Member
I'll probably up my pledge this weekend. Gotta hit that 500K
Ignis Fatuus
Banned
The Hayter boost appears to have been especially effective at raising the average pledge. There were actually more new pledges today than yesterday.
They should tweak some of the reward tiers or create a new one at the $60-80 level, something that leverages the Hayter and Hale names.
HP_Wuvcraft
Banned
It's gonna be tight.
Pachterballs
Banned
both 8-4 and weekend confirmed were pimping this. cannatta going on about AAA+ iOS game total missed the point that this KS was doomed as a AAA+ iOS game. :/ and is now multiplatform for those reasons
Dog Problems
Banned
I'm still hoping the iPhone case, shirt, and hoodie get shown. I'll up my pledge to those tiers depending on how nice they are.
Ignis Fatuus
Banned
I swear if the $10,000 tier included the opportunity to hang out with Hayter and/or Hale they would sell it out like hotcakes.
Neuromancer
Member
Not even halfway with one week to go. I just don't see how they're going to do it.
Ignis Fatuus
Banned
The vast majority of their pledges came after the PC announcement last week. If they're smart about tweaking the reward tiers there might still be some hope. One $10k pledge puts a pretty significant dent into the whole. They simply haven't done enough to attract to high level pledges. I don't think any Kickstarter has reached $500k without those big donors.
If you promise a meeting with Hayter, a $10k pledge will probably be much easier to net than a hundred of the $100 pledges or a thousand of the $10 pledges.
Hayter might not feel like hanging out with random people and pretending to laugh at their "I need scissors! 61" jokes.
Tweaking the tiers a bit does seem to help other kickstarters sometimes though.
JasonUresti
Member
I will pledge 1000 if they setup a meeting between Alan Moore and David Hayter and film it.
MrCunningham
Member
Well, it's half way there. Too bad there's only 6 days left.
Dreams-Visions
Member
well, they'll certainly have to reboot the Kickstarter.
Are there any metrics on the success rate of Kickstarters that have to start over with lower goals?
Are there any metrics on the success rate of Kickstarters that have to start over with lower goals?
HP_Wuvcraft
Banned
That's not how this thing works.
If they hammered out a budget for the game, that's the budget for the game.
NervousXtian
Thought Emoji Movie was good. Take that as you will.
Or the fact they already have funding, and this was just going to replace it.
Game is getting made KS or not.
B_Rik_Schitthaus
Banned
It feels like the KS isn't even a goal now, they are announcing more and more stuff and I'm sure it will continue past the end date.
That's why I've lost a lot of the respect I once had for the guys over at Camouflaj. Yes, they made Metal Gear Solid, Halo, F.E.A.R., Kinect and other cutting edge AAA games, -- but their Kickstarter turned out to be a dishonest endeavor.
Ignis Fatuus
Banned
What I got from the interviews was that a lot of the offers came after the Kickstarter generated publicity, so the exercise wasn't a wash, nor would I really call it dishonest. The Banner Saga was always going to be made, just on a much different scale than it will be now. Nekro switched up their messaging towards the end and claimed that they wouldn't be able to make the game at all if they didn't cross the finish line, which directly contradicted their FAQ. I think the truth behind most of these Kickstarters is that they could be made through alternative means, just not as well and not as quickly.
Regardless, just because a team gets some offers from investors or publishers during a campaign doesn't mean they set out with the express goal of tricking people. The Kickstarter page has always made it very clear that they would be seeking venture capital. It looks like they got it, so I doubt they'll try again unless the deals fall through. We're just left to wonder what kind of control the investors will demand in return.
onlyindreams
Banned
It's not dishonest.. jesus
Not necessarily. We can all think of games where talented perfectionists were given a lot of control and the result was a very protracted, often delayed final product that went way over budget and didn't really deliver. Too Human, Gran Turismo 5, Duke Nukem Forever, Battlecruiser 3000AD, and Daikatana all spring immediately to mind. I don't think Republique will necessarily fall victim to the same problems, but it's something to keep in mind with Kickstarters. Sometimes having a budget-minded publisher forcing the developer to make compromises is preferable to giving someone a huge budget with no oversight. I think the problem with publishers is that they now all force developers to give up the rights to their IPs. Then the developers are stuck making the same game forever because they aren't trusted with any other IPs or the publisher sees any new IP as too risky (see Bungie, Traveller's Tales, Infinity Ward, Bioware after the EA buyout, etc, etc). That's probably a better reason to support Kickstarter than "creative control", which is very much a double-edged sword.
Except in principle with Kickstarter the budget is *very* fixed. It's a sum of money, and that's it. You can't very easily go back to the well with cap in hand like you can with a real publisher. The onus is on the dev to budget the project extremely carefully. In turn, of course, that's another thing backers should consider when deciding on how much risk they want to put into a project.
In short: the developers have a budget-minded *reality*, for want of a better word. The 'oversight' comes from the fact that they will run out of money. You can't go overbudget if there's no source for more money.
I'd say you do have a point in one respect, though, and it's something backers should bear in mind: the danger of a kickstarter project setting a funding goal that's insufficient for the development they're intending to do. That's going to be tricky for backers, and I do think that *that* is the direction most "successful kickstarter, failed/disappointing project" problems will come from.
CarbonatedFalcon
Member
I don't know what you'd put it at, but they should have offered Hayter/Hale voicemails.
FemShep as my voicemail? Sure!
B_Rik_Schitthaus
Banned
Are voicemails still a thing?
Zeouterlimits
Member
I wonder if the game'll be made but all the supplemental stuff like the books won't be happening.
Looking at the trending prediction its not going to make it.
exmachina64
Banned
Maybe? People can still set them up for cell phones.
True, but Kicktraq's not a good predictor.
HadesGigas
Member
Did they show what the posters/shirts/hoodies look like anywhere? Don't see anything on the main page about it. Can't imagine too many people dropping hundreds of dollars to get something like that without having some idea what it looks like.