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[QSD]

Interesting thread about an interesting development in society. I'd consider myself a resonably lazy person, but in my life I've only been on unemployment for 4 months or so. Idling at home left me depressed and unfulfilled, so I took a chance on a job in psychiatry and it turned out to be a job that I still love doing. I think that most people would rather work a job where they are valued than sit at home and collect unemployment benefits. I think a push for non-poverty level salaries is inevitable. But more than that, if you want to attract qualities employees, you have to work on the "where they are valued" bit. If you like to think of employees as 'wage slaves' that you can boss around and treat without consideration, that's probably doing a lot to make your business unattractive to work for. Treat employees with respect and give them a say in the way things operate and you won't have a hard time finding people.

 

[Bernd Lauert]

Yeah. That works until the federal government turns off the money faucet after the summer. Then what, lazy, irresponsible guy who “deserves” more money who apparently can’t do anything besides “poverty level” work? People like that survive on the generosity of others. Maybe act a bit fucking appreciative and spare everyone the self righteous indignation about how you’re too good for low level work. If you were actually too good, you could go earn more doing something else instead of sitting on your ass at home collecting bum checks from Uncle Sam.

I love that in an economy with literally millions of unfilled jobs, the idea you could actually improve your life by getting one of them is considered “bootstrap mentality”. And then you’re upset when people call you lazy/irresponsible.

Not sure why you're talking to me, I have a well paying job. Looks like I hit a nerve.

 

[DeepBreath87]

Not sure why you're talking to me, I have a well paying job. Looks like I hit a nerve.

You don’t know why I’m talking to you? You said this:

Pay up or shut up, it's that easy. Calling people lazy and irresponsible for not wanting to work poverty level jobs is laughable. Luckily, the "muh bootstraps" brainwashing is slowly dying out with the boomers.

The “you” is more abstract as opposed to you personally. It’s more directed towards the person who actually has the attitude you described. If you have a job, good for you. But it’s also kind of ironic that you are telling people they’re too good for low level work. Why are they too good for it?

 

[StreetsofBeige]

To those talking about"razor thin" margins and asking if I worked in the industry, reading comprehension is not your strength. Thank fuck you've never been my server/bartender/cook. They can read.
Anyway, the point being that I worked in the industry for two decades, more recently and more involved than being a busboy thirty years ago. The only owner that ever complained about razor thin margins was a fucking idiot who ran his own business into the ground.
I've seen profit margins. I managed a hugely successful restaurant in Charleston. Those assholes make shit tons.

Who knew every restaurant in the world makes "shit tons" of profit. lol

I can see why you are angry and expect pity money. Youve been working in the restaurant service gig for 30 years, probably make crap money the whole time, and work in dumpy places where customers have attitude and yell back.

As people have suggested, if you don't like it. Then get a new job in another career that pays better.

If you cant and have to stick to the service industry, that's your issue. You want to stay for 30 years, you live with the way the industry works for 30 years.

As I said pages back, I was a busboy and waiter too in the 90s. Boss, coworkers and customers were all fine. Never had attitude from customers probably because I worked in a decent family restaurant, not a Dennys. Paid great. Best paying jobs when at the time I had other PT jobs too during school or summers which were pure minimum wage. No tips. Standing in an assembly line kind of job churning out product from hot machines. There's no downtime except for breaks and lunch. If you turn off the machines for no good reason, the supervisor will notice and ask why the hell you turning off the machines. Keep that shit flowing. Restaurant gig nobody is working their ass off every minute. When there slow nights, everyone is standing around waiting. There's only o many times you can clean a table or adjust seats.

A waiter job is better than a busboy job too.

For those who never worked in a place with waiters and busboys, the busboys do all the garbagy jobs like clean tables, take out the trash, if someone spills food on the floor, youre the priority guy to do the grungy tasks. I did those. Then you move up to waiter and tell the busboy to do those jobs. Busboy does them while waiters stand there. The cool ones would help you out, but many just stand there and chat while watching you clean and set up tables and take the disgusting bins of dirty plates to the kitchen.

It sounds like pain in the ass jobs. And it can be. But it's a numbnut job anyone can do. Put it this way. If high school and college kids can do it part time, it cant be the most complex job in the world.

 

[Bernd Lauert]

The “you” is more abstract as opposed to you personally. It’s more directed towards the person who actually has the attitude you described. If you have a job, good for you. But it’s also kind of ironic that you are telling people they’re too good for low level work. Why are they too good for it?

I'm saying they're too good to make poverty wages. People are willing to do shit tier jobs, just pay them a decent wage.

 

[The Pleasure]

We need a hands law.

Any fucker that acts the fool gets to catch these hands.

 

[CloudNull]

We need a hands law.

Any fucker that acts the fool gets to catch these hands.

 

[Torrent of Pork]

Islam Is Right About Thieves

 

[zorg1000]

To regular people not wanting to go back to low wage jobs that don't pay the bills, "stop being lazy and work for your money!"

About business owners paying shit wages, "they run on razor thin margins and have to pay the bills!"

So it's bad when people take advantage of the government in order to pay their bills but its completely acceptable for business owners to take advantage of workers to pay their bills?

 

[MastaKiiLA]

You better say hello back to your Walmart greeter, or he'll put your ass on dream street. That was a satisfying result.

 

[YCoCg]

To regular people not wanting to go back to low wage jobs that don't pay the bills, "stop being lazy and work for your money!"

About business owners paying shit wages, "they run on razor thin margins and have to pay the bills!"

So it's bad when people take advantage of the government in order to pay their bills but its completely acceptable for business owners to take advantage of workers to pay their bills?

The irony being most people defending this would throw a fit if their employer turned around and said "I've handled money badly this year, you have to take a pay cut".

 

[DeafTourette]

More like restaurants closing due to lazy fucks trying to ride off covid payments and taxpayers.

In Canada, I think you still get $2000/mth.

Why go back to low end jobs when you can sit home and get paid, and not have to worry about getting up in the morn or spending money on lunch or gas or taking the bus for work?

Maybe the restaurants should pay more? Especially the big chains. Lots of folks I know who worked at restaurants quit and got new jobs that pay more and that let you stay home after being on unemployment for a while. $2000 a month ain't nothing. Bills, rent, etc.

 

[StreetsofBeige]

Maybe the restaurants should pay more? Especially the big chains. Lots of folks I know who worked at restaurants quit and got new jobs that pay more and that let you stay home after being on unemployment for a while. $2000 a month ain't nothing. Bills, rent, etc.

Or government should pay less handouts.

The second these covid perks dry up, all these people will suddenly be begging to get back to work.

Nobody said $2000/mth = living like a king

But there's no denying by anyone that getting $2000/mth from taxpayers by sitting home doing nothing isn't leeching off society as a grab bag. They were working before covid perks were given.

 

[DeepBreath87]

I think it’s really something watching people say “pay more money”. You realize these people sitting at home are collecting money that was supposed to help them while they were out of work due to the pandemic. Not because they didn’t feel like going to work, right? I mean, I guess I blame the government for literally giving money away without even attempting to verify whether the people taking it are just bums. But if being a bum is bad, being a self righteous bum who is trying to dress up his laziness as some kind of moral stance on wages in the US is significantly worse.

 

[StreetsofBeige]

I think it’s really something watching people say “pay more money”. You realize these people sitting at home are collecting money that was supposed to help them while they were out of work due to the pandemic. Not because they didn’t feel like going to work, right? I mean, I guess I blame the government for literally giving money away without even attempting to verify whether the people taking it are just bums. But if being a bum is bad, being a self righteous bum who is trying to dress up his laziness as some kind of moral stance on wages in the US is significantly worse.

100% correct.

I also like how everyone defending this as calling government cheap or businesses greedy bums try to convince everyone that working at a low end job is:

- The hardest job to do
- Every boss is a tyrant
- Every customer is a pain
- The job is underpaid, requires uber talent to do, and every day you're getting hit from all sides from bad bosses, to bad customers, to stress all day

The hardest jobs in the world to work at entitled to more money.

I did my share of low paid low end jobs as a student in high school and university. I guess I was the luckiest kid ever because I never found these low end jobs hard. The people (customers, bosses and coworkers) were all nice and the job was easy. The only thing that was a pain was when I worked in a machinery plant and had a punch ticket like Fred Flintstone. So you had to be on time. Service jobs you can float in a bit late or leave early and nobody cared if the place was dead and done for the night.

I'll never say these low end jobs can make you live like royalty. But they arent meant to. Anyone out there who thinks working as a busboy or a plant making screws and bolts from a machine where you stand there mindlessly for hours watching the machine spit out 1000s of bits all day deserves great pay is out of his mind.

I did these jobs fine PT as a student.

 

[DeepBreath87]

100% correct.

I also like how everyone defending this as calling government cheap or businesses greedy bums try to convince everyone that working at a low end job is:

- The hardest job to do
- Every boss is a tyrant
- Every customer is a pain
- The job is underpaid, requires uber talent to do, and every day you're getting hit from all sides from bad bosses, to bad customers, to stress all day

The hardest jobs in the world to work at entitled to more money.

I did my share of low paid low end jobs as a student in high school and university. I guess I was the luckiest kid ever because I never found these low end jobs hard. The people (customers, bosses and coworkers) were all nice and the job was easy. The only thing that was a pain was when I worked in a machinery plant and had a punch ticket like Fred Flintstone. So you had to be on time. Service jobs you can float in a bit late or leave early and nobody cared if the place was dead and done for the night.

I'll never say these low end jobs can make you live like royalty. But they arent meant to. Anyone out there who thinks working as a busboy or a plant making screws and bolts from a machine where you stand there mindlessly for hours watching the machine spit out 1000s of bits all day deserves great pay is out of his mind.

I did these jobs fine PT as a student.

I spent 2 years in my early 20s loading UPS trucks in the morning from 3am-7am 5 days a week. That job was physically taxing as hell. But you know what? It’s an entry level job. It’s for young people who either are in school to do something else (me) or people who want to drive a UPS truck in a few years to get a foot in the door. A job like that is tough. But it’s meant to be temporary. Most of these low level jobs are.

People act like these jobs are supposed to be destination positions and need to pay as such. There are jobs that are not supposed to be careers.

 

[StreetsofBeige]

I spent 2 years in my early 20s loading UPS trucks in the morning from 3am-7am 5 days a week. That job was physically taxing as hell. But you know what? It’s an entry level job. It’s for young people who either are in school to do something else (me) or people who want to drive a UPS truck in a few years to get a foot in the door. A job like that is tough. But it’s meant to be temporary. Most of these low level jobs are.

People act like these jobs are supposed to be destination positions and need to pay as such. There are jobs that are not supposed to be careers.

Yup.

If people want a low end job as a career then go work at the post office. For the easy job to do they probably get paid $20/hr now.

Back in the 80s, my older brothers worked PT at Canada Post. And even back then, they would laugh they be getting paid like double digit/hr (I forget if that was before or after OT).

Never the less, it paid way more than a shopping mall kind of job.

Guess what their job was? Courier? Guy who drives a truck?

Nope. A combo job of sort mail into slots and best one of all...... "mail bag duster and folder".

Imagine back in the 80s getting paid $10/hr or more to stand in a room waiting for couriers to toss down a chute empty bags. If there's no bags, they'd just sit and wait. When bags came down, they shake them a bit, fold them and stack them in big piles.

My brothers laughed at the job. But that was the job. No wonder it was students doing it.

Anyone who thinks this job deserves big money is an idiot. I bet now that job pays at $20/hr if it's still around. But maybe they automated mailbag folding now.

 

[QSD]

100% correct.

I also like how everyone defending this as calling government cheap or businesses greedy bums try to convince everyone that working at a low end job is:

- The hardest job to do
- Every boss is a tyrant
- Every customer is a pain
- The job is underpaid, requires uber talent to do, and every day you're getting hit from all sides from bad bosses, to bad customers, to stress all day

The hardest jobs in the world to work at entitled to more money.

I did my share of low paid low end jobs as a student in high school and university. I guess I was the luckiest kid ever because I never found these low end jobs hard. The people (customers, bosses and coworkers) were all nice and the job was easy. The only thing that was a pain was when I worked in a machinery plant and had a punch ticket like Fred Flintstone. So you had to be on time. Service jobs you can float in a bit late or leave early and nobody cared if the place was dead and done for the night.

Yeah my feelings on this are mixed. I had a job stocking supermarket shelves when I was a student, I never minded it much but we were treated well (e.g. every night after shift is done get some beers on the house and play poker in the cafeteria till the wee hours). I feel working simple jobs is healthy for a young person's development, especially if you are at university doing something practical on the side can put things (read: your ego) in perspective.

I'll never say these low end jobs can make you live like royalty. But they arent meant to. Anyone out there who thinks working as a busboy or a plant making screws and bolts from a machine where you stand there mindlessly for hours watching the machine spit out 1000s of bits all day deserves great pay is out of his mind.

Here I would say that the pay the job should command shouldn´t be contigent on whether you or I think it's mindless grunt work. The pay should be contigent on how easy that position is to fill. If you can't find any applicants, and you don't want to do the job yourself, pay more. or change the job so that it is more attractive to do regardless of pay.

A lot of what puts people off work is also just bad formative experiences. Before my current job I was always somewhat alienated from my employment (e.g. when working at the supermarket I certainly did not feel any connection to the supermarket chain I was working for) and for many people that's all they've ever known. Work becomes more fulfilling if you actually identify with what you do and are valued for your contributions, but some people never have that experience.

 

[Termite]

At the end of the day, if you are putting in 8 hours honest labour five days a week then you deserve enough pay to cover rent and bills in your area and not live in poverty. You deserve a living wage. You should also be making significantly more than anyone on benefits, or else the incentive to work breaks down, and those actually contributing to society aren't being properly rewarded.

Now, what the living wage is in various regions of the US I don't know, but it sounds to me that a lot of businesses have been getting by paying less than a living wage while making profit off the back of said labour, which is unacceptable. It's no surprise that they can't attract workers in that environment, and it sounds like a wage correction for unskilled labour is long overdue. To be clear - if you are making a profit off your employees while they can only live in poverty with the wages you pay, then you are running an immoral business.

I've worked in in bars and restaurants as a college student before my first career as a programmer and now as a CSP for offshore companies. I understand why I am paid more in my current role (because it delivers significant value to my clients), but I never put in harder labour than at my student jobs. Absolutely never worked harder. Did more hours as a programmer, but worked harder in the restaurant. The argument that said unskilled labour shouldn't have been paid a living wage because I was young, or just a student, or that I would move on one day is wrong on so many levels. Young workers deserve to be free of poverty. Not everyone is capable of "moving on" because of lack of skill/talent -they don't deserve to live in poverty. And so on.

Of course, then you have to turn around and debate the semantic definition of poverty with people. My cousin advising the government in Ireland was part of a movement to define poverty as someone who can't afford to take a two week holiday abroad with their family every year. It's ludicrous. Also, I think in the EU poverty is set as less than 60% of the average. This is also absurd because it means that rising living standards won't affect poverty rates whatsoever if wages grow at the same level between classes. So to have the living wage argument you need to have the "what is poverty, really" conversation. Because even in this thread alone I know we're not all on the same page there.

 

[Robot Carnival]

yeah, as someone who once did go unemployed for over a year, it's definitely not good for your mental health. restaurants in the US just had been too used to the low pay/take the tips system that they don't know or want to change. but honestly change should be made. it's simply not worth the time and effort for people in modern days to work like that for those pay, especially since people have so much more choices now. hopefully some meaningful changes can be made, thou I won't hold my breath on it.

 

[Pol Pot]

Like dude we’re grown, you’re so obviously lying just stop embarrassing yourself.

What exactly do I stand to gain by lying about any of this?

Who knew every restaurant in the world makes "shit tons" of profit. lol

I can see why you are angry and expect pity money. Youve been working in the restaurant service gig for 30 years, probably make crap money the whole time, and work in dumpy places where customers have attitude and yell back.

As people have suggested, if you don't like it. Then get a new job in another career that pays better.

If you cant and have to stick to the service industry, that's your issue. You want to stay for 30 years, you live with the way the industry works for 30 years.

As I said pages back, I was a busboy and waiter too in the 90s. Boss, coworkers and customers were all fine. Never had attitude from customers probably because I worked in a decent family restaurant, not a Dennys. Paid great. Best paying jobs when at the time I had other PT jobs too during school or summers which were pure minimum wage. No tips. Standing in an assembly line kind of job churning out product from hot machines. There's no downtime except for breaks and lunch. If you turn off the machines for no good reason, the supervisor will notice and ask why the hell you turning off the machines. Keep that shit flowing. Restaurant gig nobody is working their ass off every minute. When there slow nights, everyone is standing around waiting. There's only o many times you can clean a table or adjust seats.

A waiter job is better than a busboy job too.

For those who never worked in a place with waiters and busboys, the busboys do all the garbagy jobs like clean tables, take out the trash, if someone spills food on the floor, youre the priority guy to do the grungy tasks. I did those. Then you move up to waiter and tell the busboy to do those jobs. Busboy does them while waiters stand there. The cool ones would help you out, but many just stand there and chat while watching you clean and set up tables and take the disgusting bins of dirty plates to the kitchen.

It sounds like pain in the ass jobs. And it can be. But it's a numbnut job anyone can do. Put it this way. If high school and college kids can do it part time, it cant be the most complex job in the world.

This dude straight up having fantasies about me.

Everything I've said is true. If you don't like it, maybe grab a part time gig at your local suffering McDonald's and make your own Big Mac. I'm sure they'll show you great loyalty and respect for helping out in these troubled times. Might even let you take a break.

 

[DeepBreath87]

At the end of the day, if you are putting in 8 hours honest labour five days a week then you deserve enough pay to cover rent and bills in your area and not live in poverty. You deserve a living wage. You should also be making significantly more than anyone on benefits, or else the incentive to work breaks down, and those actually contributing to society aren't being properly rewarded.

Now, what the living wage is in various regions of the US I don't know, but it sounds to me that a lot of businesses have been getting by paying less than a living wage while making profit off the back of said labour, which is unacceptable. It's no surprise that they can't attract workers in that environment, and it sounds like a wage correction for unskilled labour is long overdue. To be clear - if you are making a profit off your employees while they can only live in poverty with the wages you pay, then you are running an immoral business.

I've worked in in bars and restaurants as a college student before my first career as a programmer and now as a CSP for offshore companies. I understand why I am paid more in my current role (because it delivers significant value to my clients), but I never put in harder labour than at my student jobs. Absolutely never worked harder. Did more hours as a programmer, but worked harder in the restaurant. The argument that said unskilled labour shouldn't have been paid a living wage because I was young, or just a student, or that I would move on one day is wrong on so many levels. Young workers deserve to be free of poverty. Not everyone is capable of "moving on" because of lack of skill/talent -they don't deserve to live in poverty. And so on.

Of course, then you have to turn around and debate the semantic definition of poverty with people. My cousin advising the government in Ireland was part of a movement to define poverty as someone who can't afford to take a two week holiday abroad with their family every year. It's ludicrous. Also, I think in the EU poverty is set as less than 60% of the average. This is also absurd because it means that rising living standards won't affect poverty rates whatsoever if wages grow at the same level between classes. So to have the living wage argument you need to have the "what is poverty, really" conversation. Because even in this thread alone I know we're not all on the same page there.

It’s a complex question. But we should probably not talk about what people “deserve”. Does Lebron James deserve to make tens of millions a year playing a child’s game when teachers get paid 50k? It’s never been about what someone deserves. That’s not the measure. People in the US are not starving. Our homeless problems are driven more by mental health issues and drug abuse than wage issues. Even poor people in the US often have luxuries most people in the world do not. You don’t get paid what you deserve. You get paid what you can reasonably negotiate for.

 

[Pol Pot]

It’s a complex question. But we should probably not talk about what people “deserve”. Does Lebron James deserve to make tens of millions a year playing a child’s game when teachers get paid 50k? It’s never been about what someone deserves. That’s not the measure. People in the US are not starving. Our homeless problems are driven more by mental health issues and drug abuse than wage issues. Even poor people in the US often have luxuries most people in the world do not. You don’t get paid what you deserve. You get paid what you can reasonably negotiate for.

I think these unfilled jobs are negotiations.

 

[Termite]

It’s a complex question. But we should probably not talk about what people “deserve”. Does Lebron James deserve to make tens of millions a year playing a child’s game when teachers get paid 50k? It’s never been about what someone deserves. That’s not the measure. People in the US are not starving. Our homeless problems are driven more by mental health issues and drug abuse than wage issues. Even poor people in the US often have luxuries most people in the world do not. You don’t get paid what you deserve. You get paid what you can reasonably negotiate for.

No, at the lowest level of wages it IS about what someone deserves, and the whole reason it has to be is because as an individual they don't have the leverage in negotiation to get a living wage. Not paying a living wage is immoral, but plenty of business would be willing to do it, and plenty of workers would accept out of pure desperation. This happens in my area, I see it constantly. And it's one of many situations where the free market may not arrive at a just, fair outcome. Some things must be legislated for.

We can argue about what poverty is and whether it's caused by low wages or drug use or mental illness or violence etc. But there has to be some minimum standard of living that a person working 40 hours a week deserves.

 

[DeepBreath87]

I think these unfilled jobs are negotiations.

Negotiations where the person sitting on their ass is relying on the goodwill society to bankroll them being a deadbeat as leverage.

No, at the lowest level of wages it IS about what someone deserves, and the whole reason it has to be is because as an individual they don't have the leverage in negotiation to get a living wage. Not paying a living wage is immoral, but plenty of business would be willing to do it, and plenty of workers would accept out of pure desperation. This happens in my area, I see it constantly. And it's one of many situations where the free market may not arrive at a just, fair outcome. Some things must be legislated for.

We can argue about what poverty is and whether it's caused by low wages or drug use or mental illness or violence etc. But there has to be some minimum standard of living that a person working 40 hours a week deserves.

What you’re talking about is welfare. Not wages.

 

[Pol Pot]

Negotiations where the person sitting on their ass is relying on the goodwill society to bankroll them being a deadbeat as leverage.


What you’re talking about is welfare. Not wages.

Then maybe society should demand that these people not be paid poverty wages as opposed to continuing to exploit them for a dollar menu.

 

[Termite]

Negotiations where the person sitting on their ass is relying on the goodwill society to bankroll them being a deadbeat as leverage.


What you’re talking about is welfare. Not wages.

No. Money given in exchange for labour is always wages, never welfare.

A minimum level of wages for an hour's honest work isn't welfare, it's fairness.

You get so mad at people sitting on their ass but then you refuse to fairly reward the ones who actually work, who add value to society, who generate the profits for the businesses - it's entirely hypocritical.

 

[highrider]

What exactly do I stand to gain by lying about any of this?

What exactly do I stand to gain by lying about any of this?

This dude straight up having fantasies about me.

Everything I've said is true. If you don't like it, maybe grab a part time gig at your local suffering McDonald's and make your own Big Mac. I'm sure they'll show you great loyalty and respect for helping out in these troubled times. Might even let you take a break.

Nothing it’s just everyone has already peeped that you’re full of shit, I’m assuming you’re arguing from made up authority as a kind of Hail Mary.

 

[Pol Pot]

Nothing it’s just everyone has already peeped that you’re full of shit, I’m assuming you’re arguing from made up authority as a kind of Hail Mary.

How was that determination made outside of disagreeing with me?
It wasn't. And everyone? Who's everyone?

 

[nush]

You jumped the shark with waitress sexual harassment. Then when you landed there was another shark so you did a triple backflip over that claiming 30 years in the industry and running highly successful restaurants.

Your an alt of one of the gaffers that threw a shitfit and suicided your main account or your a banned account back again.

Your giving off serious Chairman Tickles vibes.

 

[DeepBreath87]

No. Money given in exchange for labour is always wages, never welfare.

A minimum level of wages for an hour's honest work isn't welfare, it's fairness.

You get so mad at people sitting on their ass but then you refuse to fairly reward the ones who actually work, who add value to society, who generate the profits for the businesses - it's entirely hypocritical.

No. You are talking about how all work should have this baseline value of a “living wage” without even stipulating what that actually is. Rent? What size apartment? What location? What about bills? What kinds of bills? You’re arguing all work should have a minimum value that you are setting arbitrarily because it’s “moral” according to you. It’s a completely nebulous and untenable concept.

What you really want is social safety nets to provide a baseline standard of living. You just want to attach it to work. I can actually agree with that in principle. The problem we are currently facing is that we are providing the baseline standard of living detached from work. So people aren’t working.

 

[sunnysideup]

Any 8 hour labour should pay rent, food, health.

otherwise its not worth anyone's time.

 

[sunnysideup]

No one needs restaurants.

If they cannot pay a wage that is enough to pay roof, food, health.

fuck them

 

[Pol Pot]

You jumped the shark with waitress sexual harassment. Then when you landed there was another shark so you triple backflip Ed

Provided an article with statistics on the sexual harassment.
I'll tell you what though. If you can prove to me that you've never harassed a restaurant worker, I'll throw up twenty years of check stubs. Would you be surprised to see that the vast, vast majority of them are for exactly zero dollars? Or is that an insidious lie as well?

Commie bullshit, a gross misunderstanding or willful ignorance of the problems facing these workers, and "nice rack of ribs" have been your only contributions to this discussion. So how about you go fuck yourself?

 

[DeepBreath87]

Any 8 hour labour should pay rent, food, health.

otherwise its not worth anyone's time.

Again. What kind of rent? What kind of food? What kind of health?

 

[nush]

A lot f these low paying jobs are priced on the assumption that the person taking them is the second income of the household, Be that a live at home child or what was traditionally "the wife's job". But businesses have been making cuts for so long now probably having two of those jobs isn't enough if you pooled with a coworker for living.

 

[nush]

Provided an article with statistics on the sexual harassment.
I'll tell you what though. If you can prove to me that you've never harassed a restaurant worker, I'll throw up twenty years of check stubs. Would you be surprised to see that the vast, vast majority of them are for exactly zero dollars? Or is that an insidious lie as well?

Commie bullshit, a gross misunderstanding or willful ignorance of the problems facing these workers, and "nice rack of ribs" have been your only contributions to this discussion. So how about you go fuck yourself?

You can't prove a negative my child.

 

[sunnysideup]

Again. What kind of rent? What kind of food? What kind of health?

1 bedroom apartment per grown up.

3000kcal atleast 80 grams of protein per day.

Full coverage.

 

[YCoCg]

Again. What kind of rent? What kind of food? What kind of health?

The minimum provided that's attainable in the area, it's not that difficult, if they can do breakdown averages of income, rent, etc, then it should be possible to work out what's needed for basic living.

The way some of you are acting you'd think every poor person wants a condo handed out to them and they're just being lazy otherwise.

 

[Davey Cakes]

Yup.

If people want a low end job as a career then go work at the post office. For the easy job to do they probably get paid $20/hr now.

Back in the 80s, my older brothers worked PT at Canada Post. And even back then, they would laugh they be getting paid like double digit/hr (I forget if that was before or after OT).

Never the less, it paid way more than a shopping mall kind of job.

Guess what their job was? Courier? Guy who drives a truck?

Nope. A combo job of sort mail into slots and best one of all...... "mail bag duster and folder".

Imagine back in the 80s getting paid $10/hr or more to stand in a room waiting for couriers to toss down a chute empty bags. If there's no bags, they'd just sit and wait. When bags came down, they shake them a bit, fold them and stack them in big piles.

My brothers laughed at the job. But that was the job. No wonder it was students doing it.

Anyone who thinks this job deserves big money is an idiot. I bet now that job pays at $20/hr if it's still around. But maybe they automated mailbag folding now.

I work for the post office, but I’m stationed in the plant working the mail sorting machines that go through thousands of mail pieces a day. I was a support employee for two years making 17-18 an hour, and now that I’m a full time career employee I make 20+ an hour plus full benefits and the opportunity for overtime.

I work hard and I’m very accommodating. I deserve every penny I earn. It’s not like 40-50k goes very far as a Massachusetts resident anyway. It’s decent, but far from glamorous. I couldn’t imagine making min wage. Even back in 2014 when I was working in health insurance for 12 an hour I was barely scraping by.

 

[Termite]

No. You are talking about how all work should have this baseline value of a “living wage” without even stipulating what that actually is. Rent? What size apartment? What location? What about bills? What kinds of bills? You’re arguing all work should have a minimum value that you are setting arbitrarily because it’s “moral” according to you. It’s a completely nebulous and untenable concept.

What you really want is social safety nets to provide a baseline standard of living. You just want to attach it to work. I can actually agree with that in principle. The problem we are currently facing is that we are providing the baseline standard of living detached from work. So people aren’t working.

I explicitly stated that this is all dependent on a definition of poverty that I haven't provided. It's irrelevant to the basic morality of profiting off workers while their wages leave them unable to meet basic needs. It's for society to come up with a precise definition of what poverty is, what acceptable standard living conditions are. In Ireland and the EU they've done so - I happen to disagree with their definitions and think they're too broad but it's possible to make that call, to come up with a definition. Figuring out a baseline is not untenable at all. It may well be that the minimum wages in the US do already meet whatever standards you and I might set. But the point is that those minimum standards should be there.

If you want to call minimum wage a social safety net then yes, I do want that. In the same way I want legislative safety nets regarding environmental protection, worker safety protection etc. That STILL does not make minimum wage welfare, it's still wages. It's still fairly earned. Far more fairly earned than the excess value extracted from that labour as profit.

As for society providing the baseline standard of living to people detached from work - yes, this is a problem (if it is in fact happening - I'm not au fait with what's going on in the US and I did not think you had that kind of a welfare state). Absolutely no disagreement here at all. And we've seen in the UK that such welfare detachment whereby people are actively disincentivized from working can create generational unemployment and familial anti-social behaviour and mental health issues.

But again, this is an argument for making sure that those who work DO earn enough to meet our arbitrary baseline. So that we can contrast them those who don't, and ensure they get less (if anything at all).

I'll just never back down on my basic point that extracting profit from the labour of a person who can't meet their needs from the wages you've provided is morally wrong.

 

[DeepBreath87]

1 bedroom apartment per grown up.

3000kcal atleast 80 grams of protein per day.

Full coverage.

So enough to support one person, bare minimum? I’m going to take were I live since rent will vary considerably. Let’s say rent is $1000 a month for a one bedroom. I googled the average cost of health insurance for an individual at $550 a month. And for food, obviously there is going to be a variance but let’s say $25 a day x 28 days. $700.

So $2250 a month/4 weeks. 562.50 a week/40 hours. About $14 an hour. That provides you just with food, rent, and health. Of course you would still have bills to pay. Necessities to buy. So a “living wage” is probably more like $17-18 an hour. If you think even relatively successful businesses can drop that on even the most menial kinds of work, I think you are just mistaken. The cashier at the grocery store isn’t going to get that kind of money where I live. Or there will be one register open and everyone who doesn’t want to do self checkout will be waiting 45 minutes for their groceries.

 

[sunnysideup]

l

So enough to support one person, bare minimum? I’m going to take were I live since rent will vary considerably. Let’s say rent is $1000 a month for a one bedroom. I googled the average cost of health insurance for an individual at $550 a month. And for food, obviously there is going to be a variance but let’s say $25 a day x 28 days. $700.

So $2250 a month/4 weeks. 562.50 a week/40 hours. About $14 an hour. That provides you just with food, rent, and health. Of course you would still have bills to pay. Necessities to buy. So a “living wage” is probably more like $17-18 an hour. If you think even relatively successful businesses can drop that on even the most menial kinds of work, I think you are just mistaken. The cashier at the grocery store isn’t going to get that kind of money where I live. Or there will be one register open and everyone who doesn’t want to do self checkout will be waiting 45 minutes for their groceries.

How do you think it works in europe.

 

[DeepBreath87]

l


How do you think it works in europe.

European countries have state run healthcare. They often subsidize low income housing. They pay for these with high taxes and the almost complete lack of military spending, which the US takes care of for them via NATO. So Europe is able to lower monthly costs for low income earners via its social safety net, which in turn means its “living wage” is less.

This is not Europe. The US has its own struggles and advantages to Europe. Europe of is collection of largely homogenous, smaller countries. What works for them will often times not work here. To compare the two is naive.

 

[StreetsofBeige]

European countries have state run healthcare. They often subsidize low income housing. They pay for these with high taxes and the almost complete lack of military spending, which the US takes care of for them via NATO. So Europe is able to lower monthly costs for low income earners via its social safety net, which in turn means its “living wage” is less.

This is not Europe. The US has its own struggles and advantages to Europe. Europe of is collection of largely homogenous, smaller countries. What works for them will often times not work here. To compare the two is naive.

You're wasting your time doing math.

People all for "a living wage", "businesses are cheap and should pay more" will never state how much should be paid out. They have zero clue themselves, as you mentioned there's tons of variables depending a person's situation or location, and they will rotate their view to demand as much money as possible flip flopping between needing a good wage for a single person or to support a family of four.

Many states, provinces and businesses already boosted up to $13-15/hr. Which is basically what people wanted in protests years ago. So what more do you want? Many of you got what you wanted.

And not once, will they ever say a good compromise is getting a boosted wage in return for better or more work.

And not once will an employee ever commit to paying back an employer for fucking up. Managers and owners hire people to do a good job trusting the business still does well so everyone can keep a job and pay bills.

A lot of numbnuts screw around getting paid and sink the ship. When business is booming, everyone wants more pay and bonus. When the business has rough time, they all suddenly shut their mouths and hope to get paid even though they are failing.

A one-sided cash grab.

 

[YCoCg]

And not once, will they ever say a good compromise is getting a boosted wage in return for better or more work.

A one-sided cash grab.

Do you run a business or something, you seem extremely invested in arguing against paying employees, have you been screwed by current regulations?

 

[StreetsofBeige]

Do you run a business or something, you seem extremely invested in arguing against paying employees, have you been screwed by current regulations?

Never owned a business.

I have no problem if a business wants to pay people more money. It's up to them and their budget. That's why I even said in an earlier post there shit loads of jobs that pay well. Money is there. But they pay the big bucks to talent.

You got no talent and easily replaceable, you get offered crap pay.

Why should everyone be entitled to good pay if the job is low end, lots of people will work for it, it satisfies min wage laws, and the business is doing poorly?

 

[YCoCg]

Why should everyone be entitled to good pay if the job is low end, lots of people will work for it, it satisfies min wage laws, and the business is doing poorly?

You keep dodging the question though, what would you do if your employer made a lot of bad money choices and then said to you "I'm going to pay you less because of it"? Because you're saying people should accept that or else they're lazy.

Also, side note, it appears there has been an increase in wages as more people go back to work/found better jobs:

Wage Growth Is Holding Up in Aftermath of the Economic Crash (Published 2021)

The pay increases are giving Democrats a bragging point. But it comes with risks: Gains could fade, or spark quicker price inflation.

www.nytimes.com

You asked for evidence of that the other day.

 

[StreetsofBeige]

You keep dodging the question though, what would you do if your employer made a lot of bad money choices and then said to you "I'm going to pay you less because of it"? Because you're saying people should accept that or else they're lazy.

Also, side note, it appears there has been an increase in wages as more people go back to work/found better jobs:

Wage Growth Is Holding Up in Aftermath of the Economic Crash (Published 2021)

The pay increases are giving Democrats a bragging point. But it comes with risks: Gains could fade, or spark quicker price inflation.

www.nytimes.com

You asked for evidence of that the other day.

Simple.

Unless you're the boss calling shots, you don't pick what wage you get. Don't be entitled thinking you own the business. If you want to call the shots, go ask to be part owner and take on all the responsibilities and risk of being an owner.

As for your article, cant read it as its behind a paywall or login which I'm not doing. So cut and paste the content if you want.

Overall wages should had gone up anyway during covid because job losses skewed to low end jobs. Guys like me work from home kept our good jobs.

If wages are still going up as people go back to work, thats great. You got some extra pay boosts from bosses wanting to keep business alive as they reopen, as jobless bums at home milked covid payments off taxpayers.

So shut your mouths. You got a pay bump.

 

[YCoCg]

So shut your mouths. You got a pay bump.

The pay bump is from people who changed jobs, which as a few of us pointed out in this thread, is a result of a lot leaving the service industry and using this covid time to find a better job.

What are you not grasping by this point?