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Restaurant closing due to lack of staff in my area, anyone else?

Hulk_Smash

Banned
Why should employees play mommy to businesses? If an employer can't afford to pay their employees a living wage than they can't afford to be in business.
Really? Which employers? Which employees? Part time? Full time? Contract work? Hourly? Salary? How about seasonal? Should someone in high school get paid a living wage (that nebulous undefined term no two liberals can ever agree on)? How about someone with 3 kids? Single parent? Taking care of grandparents? Foster parents? Adoptive parents? Parents of a kid with severe medical and mental issues?

What about location? Should that be a consideration? What do we include to figure out this living wage? Taxes per state? Utilities per state? Housing or rent per state? Or should it be per county?

What scale do we use to figure out a living wage and why is that scale the correct one? And who’s going to enforce it? The employers you already don’t trust? LOL Oh! The government! But which one? Local? State? Federal? Which department? The IRS? Dept of health? Dept of labor?

So the government, half the time I’m assuming you don’t trust, should be in charge of figuring out everyone’s living wage?
 
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Pagusas

Elden Member
People continue to quit my job at an alarming rate, and they’re not going on unemployment (that would be impossible), they are getting better jobs.
I’m actually a bit worried about my company, we have 5 open roles that are paying super well (like tripple digits for the graphic design role) but having the hardest time getting good talent to apply. What’s worse is will likely lose some people soon as upper management desided now would be a great time to force people back into the office full time and if you decline, they’ll be letting you go.
 

zorg1000

Neo Member
Really? Which employers? Which employees? Part time? Full time? Contract work? Hourly? Salary? How about seasonal? Should someone in high school get paid a living wage (that nebulous undefined term no two liberals can ever agree on)? How about someone with 3 kids? Single parent? Taking care of grandparents? Foster parents? Adoptive parents? Parents of a kid with severe medical and mental issues?

What about location? Should that be a consideration? What do we include to figure out this living wage? Taxes per state? Utilities per state? Housing or rent per state? Or should it be per county?

What scale do we use to figure out a living wage and why is that scale the correct one? And who’s going to enforce it? The employers you already don’t trust? LOL Oh! The government! But which one? Local? State? Federal? Which department? The IRS? Dept of health? Dept of labor?

So the government, half the time I’m assuming you don’t trust, should be in charge of figuring out everyone’s living wage?
The majority of your questions are addressed in my previous post.
 

StreetsofBeige

Gold Member
Let's say a amazing spiritual revolution happens and suddenly even people of lower than average intellectual ability get all get interested in self-development, get educated or get good vocational training and there are no longer any "deadbeats". Who would flip the burgers? Who would collect the garbage? In the end, some jobs we commonly consider "low end" or even "deadbeat" jobs are actually essential. If nobody is willing to do them, society is fucked. From that standpoint I think reconsidering the wages they pay can be justified.

In the Netherlands there's an extreme shortage of (elementary school) teachers ATM. A lot of young people abandon the field because it's too stressful/demanding for the very average pay. If there's not enough teachers society grinds to a halt because kids can't go to school. By your 'same low end job = same low end pay" logic we can't raise salaries. What to do?
You'd always have low end jobs because there's only so many high paying jobs out there. Every society needs there low end service jobs (usually food and shopping mall jobs) and ultra skilled jobs like medicine and engineering. If everyone got a medical degree, theres only so many vacancies hospitals will hire, and only so many that will open up their own clinic. You'd get tons of burger flippers and unemployed medical students taking whatever job.

As for paying the current state of low end jobs, the market pays what it pays. And it skews to the low end for fry cooks because there's tons of them, restaurants run on slim margins and hiring and firing a fry guy is an easy transition. On the other hand, how often do you see a hospital fire and hire new doctors like a fast food PT worker? Never.

I hope you're not assuming every business out there is McDonalds and Walmart worth billions. Most companies are small.

As long as government keeps minimum wages low, you're going to get these kinds of jobs paying low. Now if government made the min wage in Canada and US $20/hr, McDonalds will have to pay $20/hr, but there will be repercussions as they will make up the costs somehow with higher food prices or cutting people or both.

Your example of Netherlands teachers is a great example. Overstressed and meh pay. That's on government to fix. Thats even a government job. If they want to be cheap, the consequence in any job is fewer people wanting to do it. WHy does government want to pay teachers "average pay"? Who knows. I'm not Dutch and dont live there. In Canada, veteran teachers get $100,000 + giant pensions. The pay is so good I know office people I worked with who quit the office life, went to teachers college for a year and became teachers.

And besides, whats wrong with "average pay"? It sounds like you think teachers should get a big boost compared to the average worker. Let's say a teacher makes $50,000 and a cable technician makes $50,000. And the country's average wage is about $50,000. It sounds like you think a teacher should be more. Why? WHo says teaching should be above average?

What youre looking for isnt companies raising wages. Youre looking for government intervention to mandate blanket boosts to minimum $15-20/hr for all jobs. And that even includes teachers with their salary bracket. Like every country, teachers get paid different amounts pending tenure and location.

Boosts to help low wage earners as a whole will come from government policy. Not companies.
 
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gimmmick

Member
My 2 cents from someone that works in the restaurant industry.

This problem isn’t as bad as you think here in Las Vegas. Most wages are bellow what the hotels pay its staff that works in the industry. Though majority of the establishments offer 14 - 16 dollars for cooks wages which isn’t good but is much better than min. wage (9.75$).

Most places know they have to spend on labor to even compete in a field that is just so saturated with so many restaurants here in the valley. I guess it’s a blessing that the cost of living is still manageable here in Vegas. Restaurants have been open since last July and have been at 100% for a good month or two.
 

QSD

Member
You'd always have low end jobs because there's only so many high paying jobs out there. Every society needs there low end service jobs (usually food and shopping mall jobs) and ultra skilled jobs like medicine and engineering. If everyone got a medical degree, theres only so many vacancies hospitals will hire, and only so many that will open up their own clinic. You'd get tons of burger flippers and unemployed medical students taking whatever job.
Is this true though? Maybe not super high paying jobs, but isn't it theoretically possible that various successful service based companies start "eating into" the number of people available for hospitality, retail, etc etc. Also, it's not just crap pay that drives people away from wanting to flip burgers. It's also a lack of respect/status and poor treatment by employers.
As for paying the current state of low end jobs, the market pays what it pays. And it skews to the low end for fry cooks because there's tons of them, restaurants run on slim margins and hiring and firing a fry guy is an easy transition. On the other hand, how often do you see a hospital fire and hire new doctors like a fast food PT worker? Never.
Obviously there will always be a limited amount of doctors, but how can there be "tons" of fry cooks, when we are discussing why fast food restaurants can't find staff?
As long as government keeps minimum wages low, you're going to get these kinds of jobs paying low. Now if government made the min wage in Canada and US $20/hr, McDonalds will have to pay $20/hr, but there will be repercussions as they will make up the costs somehow with higher food prices or cutting people or both.
I agree that it's the government job to set a new minimum wage
Your example of Netherlands teachers is a great example. Overstressed and meh pay. That's on government to fix. Thats even a government job. If they want to be cheap, the consequence in any job is fewer people wanting to do it. WHy does government want to pay teachers "average pay"? Who knows. I'm not Dutch and dont live there. In Canada, veteran teachers get $100,000 + giant pensions. The pay is so good I know office people I worked with who quit the office life, went to teachers college for a year and became teachers.
100.000 a year sounds better than what most teachers earn here
And besides, whats wrong with "average pay"? It sounds like you think teachers should get a big boost compared to the average worker. Let's say a teacher makes $50,000 and a cable technician makes $50,000. And the country's average wage is about $50,000. It sounds like you think a teacher should be more. Why? WHo says teaching should be above average?
Not necessarily, but I feel we should somehow factor in the utility of the work (e.g. if no one does it society will 'stall') when setting pay levels. A cable technician does useful work too, but there is a difference between someone you basically entrust your kids to while you go to work, and someone who'll fix the internet at your house that I feel is not reflected in the salary. I'm concerned with people in marketing and HR departments in large corporations taking home far more money than an average teacher, while the work they do is of limited utility at best, oftentimes even of overall negative utility. It's incomparable to raising/educating children anyway. It feels to me like wages in corporations don't get set by any reasonable standard.
 

A.Romero

Member
The economic landscape is changing and humanity is in the brink of a revolution related to job automation. Even if people were willing to work for the minimum wage it is still to high to win against a robot.

The only long term measure that can keep society from collapsing will be universal income but I feel we are not mature enough to live like that. The idea that people need to pay their dues to deserve a place in society and have a fulfilling life is what will complicate things.

Personally, I wish everyone could have the best life possible. Doesn't matter if they have it easier than me. Getting upset because someone can skip the entry job phase and have an income high enough to pursuit whatever interest they have is as dumb as getting upset because some people were born into rich families and live without the stress of an average life. Life is so complex that meritocracy is basically a myth.

We need to grow up and do better. Our objective should be seeking for a way for most people to have a fulfilling life and not so much keeping the status quo which is not taking most people anywhere.
 

StreetsofBeige

Gold Member
The economic landscape is changing and humanity is in the brink of a revolution related to job automation. Even if people were willing to work for the minimum wage it is still to high to win against a robot.

The only long term measure that can keep society from collapsing will be universal income but I feel we are not mature enough to live like that. The idea that people need to pay their dues to deserve a place in society and have a fulfilling life is what will complicate things.

Personally, I wish everyone could have the best life possible. Doesn't matter if they have it easier than me. Getting upset because someone can skip the entry job phase and have an income high enough to pursuit whatever interest they have is as dumb as getting upset because some people were born into rich families and live without the stress of an average life. Life is so complex that meritocracy is basically a myth.

We need to grow up and do better. Our objective should be seeking for a way for most people to have a fulfilling life and not so much keeping the status quo which is not taking most people anywhere.
Similar to athletes complaining and pegging themselves and salaries to others, what doesn't help is that with the click of the net, everyone has a ballpark idea what every other job/industry makes. So people compare and complain. I'm surprised store workers havent protested they should all be paid like Costco employees that make $20/hr + benefits. Seems to be on the high end of retailer wages based on articles.

If nobody knew what each industry made, but still got paid what they are now but everyone is just super secretive about it and no websites had salary surveys, most people would have no comparison to go on and just live life as is. No doubt people can tell working at Burger King makes less money than a doctor driving a BMW, but you wouldn't have this wage dispute. But when people know others make more money, then it turns into a comparison game where everyone wants to edge up.

I make good money, but hey I want to make more too.

I'm not a fan of universal income. Similar to covid payouts (Canadians were getting $2000/mth) it'll lead to many people living off it and not doing a thing. I dont care if getting $1000/mth isnt enough to live off by yourself. All it takes is someone living together with someone else and one person works and the other sits at home doing nothing, and right there you got two people collectively making $2000/mth as bonus pay. Where one person sits at home watching TV. Forget it. Payouts come from taxes, and big tax pools come from people and companies pitching in big taxes. Taxes going to essential services and schools and food banks are fine. Taxes given to someone sitting at home and getting a free payout no way.

Contribute to society and work for your money even if min wage. A fry cook making food for people wanting lunch contributes more than someone making $1000/mth sitting at home.
 
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A.Romero

Member
Similar to athletes complaining and pegging themselves and salaries to others, what doesn't help is that with the click of the net, everyone has a ballpark idea what every other job/industry makes. So people compare and complain. I'm surprised store workers havent protested they should all be paid like Costco employees that make $20/hr + benefits. Seems to be on the high end of retailer wages based on articles.

If nobody knew what each industry made, but still got paid what they are now but everyone is just super secretive about it and no websites had salary surveys, most people would have no comparison to go on and just live life as is. No doubt people can tell working at Burger King makes less money than a doctor driving a BMW, but you wouldn't have this wage dispute. But when people know others make more money, then it turns into a comparison game where everyone wants to edge up.

I make good money, but hey I want to make more too.

I'm not a fan of universal income. Similar to covid payouts (Canadians were getting $2000/mth) it'll lead to many people living off it and not doing a thing. I dont care if getting $1000/mth isnt enough to live off by yourself. All it takes is someone living together with someone else and one person works and the other sits at home doing nothing, and right there you got two people collectively making $2000/mth as bonus pay. Where one person sits at home watching TV. Forget it.

Contribute to society and work for your money even if min wage. A fry cook making food for people wanting lunch contributes more than someone making $1000/mth sitting at home.

That's alright. Problem is that most likely in 30 years or less a lot jobs of different levels will be automated. Universal income will be the only option to continue forward. My only concern is the initial resistance that change will have. This is nothing compared to that.

Also, even if there wasn't so much transparency about wages in other industries people can tell how others live. Inequality has never been like it is now.

Current wages do not reflect one's contribution to society. If it was like that many jobs would be way better paid and others way lower. Both individually and industry wide. There are many factors to this.

Once machines really take over the service industry we will have to reevaluate all these things. I think a lot of people will change their tune once the economy decides they are expendable.
 

StreetsofBeige

Gold Member
That's alright. Problem is that most likely in 30 years or less a lot jobs of different levels will be automated. Universal income will be the only option to continue forward. My only concern is the initial resistance that change will have. This is nothing compared to that.

Also, even if there wasn't so much transparency about wages in other industries people can tell how others live. Inequality has never been like it is now.

Current wages do not reflect one's contribution to society. If it was like that many jobs would be way better paid and others way lower. Both individually and industry wide. There are many factors to this.

Once machines really take over the service industry we will have to reevaluate all these things. I think a lot of people will change their tune once the economy decides they are expendable.
Wages and salaries are heavily dependent on demand and budget. A google software engineer can make $200,000, but a guy working at a small tech company might do something similar and valuable and make $100,000. Comes down to budget.

I dont know about other industries, but my office life seems to be skewing to leaner and meaner. Theyd rather keep fewer people and pay them more than hire more brainpower for cheaper where the wage budget is the same. They could literally hire 3 people out of university for my compensation. But they rather keep me or my colleagues at the same level. When they do hire more people, it's at a snails pace.

Probably has to do with how fast paced the world is. Cant spend time training people for years. For certain things, it might be better to keep vets at high pay as long as possible before axing them for cheaper, although typically once you hit that 60 year mark anyone is on the firing line.

As for automation, I dont see it yet except things like automated ordering screens at fast food joints. There might be more big examples out there taking over low end jobs, but thats the only one I can think of off the top of my head.

However, as more ordering boards reduce cash register people, it increases cooks. So it balances out some way. This can be seen with automated check outs that have been flooding retailers for 10 years. On the surface it seems tons of cashiers would be out of a job, yet before covid meltdown, unemployment levels in most western countries were probably at or near record lows. So they are getting hired for something else.

The Costcos by me now have automated ordering screens. You cant order by walking up anymore. But now instead of one cashier handling snack food and two cooks, it's now 3 cooks churning out hotdogs faster than before. Theyve ramped up cooking so fast, they even pile up stacks of hotdogs in the foil ready to go instead of the old way of making one at a time as people order them.

And no doubt the typical McDonalds I go into has way more cooks and drive thru workers than before. But only one cashier for walk ups.
 
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Pol Pot

Banned
I've been saying this for the entire thread.
Got called a commie. There's a wiki on my username.

Streets of Bougie Mediocrity doesn't care.
Make my whopper and be happy you have a job.

That is how you put it, yeah? StreetsofBeige StreetsofBeige
 

Pol Pot

Banned
Is this true though? Maybe not super high paying jobs, but isn't it theoretically possible that various successful service based companies start "eating into" the number of people available for hospitality, retail, etc etc. Also, it's not just crap pay that drives people away from wanting to flip burgers. It's also a lack of respect/status and poor treatment by employers.

Obviously there will always be a limited amount of doctors, but how can there be "tons" of fry cooks, when we are discussing why fast food restaurants can't find staff?

I agree that it's the government job to set a new minimum wage

100.000 a year sounds better than what most teachers earn here

Not necessarily, but I feel we should somehow factor in the utility of the work (e.g. if no one does it society will 'stall') when setting pay levels. A cable technician does useful work too, but there is a difference between someone you basically entrust your kids to while you go to work, and someone who'll fix the internet at your house that I feel is not reflected in the salary. I'm concerned with people in marketing and HR departments in large corporations taking home far more money than an average teacher, while the work they do is of limited utility at best, oftentimes even of overall negative utility. It's incomparable to raising/educating children anyway. It feels to me like wages in corporations don't get set by any reasonable standard.

I've been saying this for the entire thread.
Got called a commie. There's a wiki on my username.

Streets of Bougie Mediocrity doesn't care.
Make my whopper and be happy you have a job.

That is how you put it, yeah? StreetsofBeige StreetsofBeige
 

StreetsofBeige

Gold Member
I've been saying this for the entire thread.
Got called a commie. There's a wiki on my username.

Streets of Bougie Mediocrity doesn't care.
Make my whopper and be happy you have a job.

That is how you put it, yeah? StreetsofBeige StreetsofBeige
With a user name like Pol Pot you are a commie. And a big supporter of genocide too.

Make my whopper is right. And make it good too. Actually make both of them right because I usually order two of them. If you dont like the job and bad pay then get another job like everyone else where most people don't make close to minimum wage and the avg wage in the US is about $55000/yr (about $27/hr).

For every guy making fries for $10/hr, there's jobs paying more than $27/hr to balancing it out at $27.

If you cant hack it, thats on you. Most people dont make min wage and a good portion of them are school age people looking for PT money. If a 40 year old is still making fries at 10/hr, that's on the person to figure out. Not for businesses, taxpayers and government to bail them out. Other people have bills to pay too.
 
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Pol Pot

Banned
With a user name like Pol Pot you are a commie. And a big supporter of genocide too.

Make my whopper is right. And make it good too. If you dont like the job and bad pay then get another job like everyone else where most people don't make close to minimum wage and the avg wage in the US is about $55000/yr (about $27/hr).

For every guy making fries for $10/hr, there's jobs paying more than $27/hr to balancing it out at $27.

If you cant hack it, thats on you. Most people dont make min wage and a good portion of them are school age people looking for PT money. If a 40 year old is still making fries at 10/hr, that's on the person to figure out. Not for businesses, taxpayers and government to bail them out. Other people have bills to pay too.
Activist. Mind reader. Not a fan of good music.
 

StreetsofBeige

Gold Member
Activist. Mind reader. Not a fan of good music.
Its ok Pol Pot. People making Big Macs for a living will get by fine. It'll be a shitty standard of living, but they'll live.

Not everyone in the world wants to be dumbed down to the same low wage because people cant accept different people have different skills and work ethic.

On the other hand.....

 
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Pol Pot

Banned
bUkDl9d.gif
 

StreetsofBeige

Gold Member
Really? Which employers? Which employees? Part time? Full time? Contract work? Hourly? Salary? How about seasonal? Should someone in high school get paid a living wage (that nebulous undefined term no two liberals can ever agree on)? How about someone with 3 kids? Single parent? Taking care of grandparents? Foster parents? Adoptive parents? Parents of a kid with severe medical and mental issues?

What about location? Should that be a consideration? What do we include to figure out this living wage? Taxes per state? Utilities per state? Housing or rent per state? Or should it be per county?

What scale do we use to figure out a living wage and why is that scale the correct one? And who’s going to enforce it? The employers you already don’t trust? LOL Oh! The government! But which one? Local? State? Federal? Which department? The IRS? Dept of health? Dept of labor?

So the government, half the time I’m assuming you don’t trust, should be in charge of figuring out everyone’s living wage?
Well said.

And all of that is solved and a non-issue if you got a decent job.

Best thing to do instead of waiting for businesses and government praying they bump up wages to $20/hr is to get off your ass and get a better job. Improve your skills, brush up a well crafted resume (which most of them are probably software scanned) and read up on interview Q&A.

Dont want to do it and have a mentality everyone owes you double the pay for making Subway footlongs? Thats your problem and you'll be waiting a long time.

Let the high school and college kids looking for PT money have those jobs. Or the people who just want to work for some pocket money and get out of the house while their spouse works.
 

Enjay

Banned
Or just pay better and improve working conditions to attract higher quality and happier workers so that when I order a Whopper it’s fucking good every time.
Exactly. Only someone who couldn't make it and feels no one else should either now could have a problem with that.
 

Cravis

Member
Or just pay better and improve working conditions to attract higher quality and happier workers so that when I order a Whopper it’s fucking good every time.
The million dollar question with that is, are you willing to pay $20 or more for that whopper? Then the intrinsic value of the whopper increases and so does everything else. A $5 whopper combo is now $20, your $60 video game is now $240, and so on.

Inflation occurs then once things settle back down and the cost of goods has leveled everyone is going to be bitching and moaning that $15 isn’t enough.

It’s a vicious cycle.
 

Nobody_Important

“Aww, it’s so...average,” she said to him in a cold brick of passion
The million dollar question with that is, are you willing to pay $20 or more for that whopper? Then the intrinsic value of the whopper increases and so does everything else. A $5 whopper combo is now $20, your $60 video game is now $240, and so on.

Inflation occurs then once things settle back down and the cost of goods has leveled everyone is going to be bitching and moaning that $15 isn’t enough.

It’s a vicious cycle.
That.....or the CEO's and upper management can fuck off and take a pay cut to help mitigate the raise in prices. People like Booby Kotick make too much money as it is anyway.


People in positions like that don't deserve to make millions and millions of dollars if they can't even pay the people who make the business function a livable wage.
 
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Cravis

Member
That.....or the CEO's and upper management can fuck off and take a pay cut to help mitigate the raise in prices. People like Booby Kotick make too much money as it is anyway.


People in positions like that don't deserve to make millions and millions of dollars if they can't even pay the people who make the business function a livable wage.
Amen. Unfortunately we know who the guys on the top plan to make pay for those increase in wages.

In a fair and just world the CEO’s pay/stock options/etc. would be tied to the average employees’
 

StreetsofBeige

Gold Member
That.....or the CEO's and upper management can fuck off and take a pay cut to help mitigate the raise in prices. People like Booby Kotick make too much money as it is anyway.


People in positions like that don't deserve to make millions and millions of dollars if they can't even pay the people who make the business function a livable wage.
The majority of big CEO payouts is due to stock appreciation, not $100 million salaries.

Now if you want to argue a CEO with buckets of cashed out stocks should take that money and donate it back to the company or help boost people's wages thats a totally different argument.
 
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Nobody_Important

“Aww, it’s so...average,” she said to him in a cold brick of passion
Amen. Unfortunately we know who the guys on the top plan to make pay for those increase in wages.

In a fair and just world the CEO’s pay/stock options/etc. would be tied to the average employees’
Yeah it true, but hopefully the government will get involved at some point if companies insist on putting greed over the well being of their employees.


If the companies refuse to fix the problem then the problem will be fixed for them.
 

StreetsofBeige

Gold Member
Amen. Unfortunately we know who the guys on the top plan to make pay for those increase in wages.

In a fair and just world the CEO’s pay/stock options/etc. would be tied to the average employees’
If thats the case then boosting people's wages boosts the CEOs with it.

At the end of the day it really comes down to budget and how much wages a company is willing to pay to keep the company going well.

Why is Google paying endless tech workers $100,000+? I'm sure there's tons of applicants that'll take $40,000 to work at Google. But they pay tons. Thats because all those software engineers are skilled and if Google thinks they are worth $200,000, then they get offered $200,000. Thats more than Directors make at my company and a super skilled techie might not even have people to manage. But Google has the cash and would rather hire one $200,000 guy than four $50,000 applicants.

Getting back to low end jobs, if a fry cook makes $12/hr and thinks he's underpaid then go ask the boss for a raise. If he's that good at cooking fast food, I'm sure every boss will bump him up a couple bucks. Why lose a good workers and go through the hassle of replacing and training? Probably because he's not worth $15/hr because everyone else in the place can make fries too for $12/hr, so if he wants to quit, let him and he'll find a $12/hr kid to replace him.

10 years ago there wa sa surge in demand as oil workers were flooding Alberta and Tim's had to offer like $20/hr to find workers. At the time, the typical Tims employee was probably making $10. Why is that? Tim's store managers needed people so they had to amp up the wages.

Whats suppressing wages isn't greedy companies. They are just following min wage laws. Whats suppressing them is too many unskilled people, students, people looking for PT work, 30 year olds still deciding what to do in life and will take any job etc.... all becoming a giant pot which allows McDonalds to hire people for $10/hr. Cant blame Walmart or McDonalds for that.

If anyone wants to blame bad wages, go blame politicians for having minimum wage at like $7.75 in some US states. All Canadian provinces min wage are I think $12/hr or more as they've ramped up lately.
 
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YCoCg

Member
The million dollar question with that is, are you willing to pay $20 or more for that whopper? Then the intrinsic value of the whopper increases and so does everything else. A $5 whopper combo is now $20, your $60 video game is now $240, and so on.

Inflation occurs then once things settle back down and the cost of goods has leveled everyone is going to be bitching and moaning that $15 isn’t enough.

It’s a vicious cycle.
They pay 30p more for Burgers in the UK and can offer a better wage. Food mark up is crazy, the prices don't need to increase THAT much to offset the staff, shit the sales in America alone would generate billions of dollars more if you just raised the price of a burger by $0.25
 

zorg1000

Neo Member
The million dollar question with that is, are you willing to pay $20 or more for that whopper? Then the intrinsic value of the whopper increases and so does everything else. A $5 whopper combo is now $20, your $60 video game is now $240, and so on.

Inflation occurs then once things settle back down and the cost of goods has leveled everyone is going to be bitching and moaning that $15 isn’t enough.

It’s a vicious cycle.
Wow, a 300% increase of the cost of goods because of a ~55% increase of the average state minimum wage.
 

DeafTourette

Perpetually Offended
With a user name like Pol Pot you are a commie. And a big supporter of genocide too.

Make my whopper is right. And make it good too. Actually make both of them right because I usually order two of them. If you dont like the job and bad pay then get another job like everyone else where most people don't make close to minimum wage and the avg wage in the US is about $55000/yr (about $27/hr).

For every guy making fries for $10/hr, there's jobs paying more than $27/hr to balancing it out at $27.

If you cant hack it, thats on you. Most people dont make min wage and a good portion of them are school age people looking for PT money. If a 40 year old is still making fries at 10/hr, that's on the person to figure out. Not for businesses, taxpayers and government to bail them out. Other people have bills to pay too.

The underlined... That's false. In the US, most people making minimum wage are adults with women over 30 making up at least 60% of THAT adult population of min wage earners. It's not just burger flippers. That's a myth.
 

JayK47

Member
Local restaurant seems to have plenty of employees, but they had to drop some food items and raise prices due to shortages. A lot of fast food chains with drive-thru windows still have not opened their dining rooms and I am wondering if they ever will. Still a ways to go to any type of recovery.
 

Moneal

Member
The underlined... That's false. In the US, most people making minimum wage are adults with women over 30 making up at least 60% of THAT adult population of min wage earners. It's not just burger flippers. That's a myth.

 

StreetsofBeige

Gold Member
The underlined... That's false. In the US, most people making minimum wage are adults with women over 30 making up at least 60% of THAT adult population of min wage earners. It's not just burger flippers. That's a myth.
Seems like a good portion to me are students making min wage. I'm not just talking burger flippers. Thats just the easiest job out there that fits the part.

As the job wage increases, so does the age of workers till it levels off when people get old. Younger people make bad money. Older people in their career make more money. And the younger you are the more likely still in school or just graduated.



Age. Minimum wage workers tend to be young. Although workers under age 25 represented just under one-fifth of hourly paid workers, they made up 48 percent of those paid the federal minimum wage or less. Among employed teenagers (ages 16 to 19) paid by the hour, about 5 percent earned the minimum wage or less, compared with 1 percent of workers age 25 and older. (See tables 1 and 7.)
 

DeafTourette

Perpetually Offended
The million dollar question with that is, are you willing to pay $20 or more for that whopper? Then the intrinsic value of the whopper increases and so does everything else. A $5 whopper combo is now $20, your $60 video game is now $240, and so on.

Inflation occurs then once things settle back down and the cost of goods has leveled everyone is going to be bitching and moaning that $15 isn’t enough.

It’s a vicious cycle.

The flaw in your argument is you think raising wages would cause the incredible rise of prices... like that is the "natural" flow of inflation. That's artificial. And things eventually even out. Supply and demand is still a thing in retail. If the prices outweigh the supply of money, the demand will go down and cost the company that charges too much. The competition that has lower prices will win... Usually.

But as we've seen in the past 40+ years, as long as the minimum wage isn't tied to inflation, companies will pay the bare minimum and create a facade of "we're here for you!"

You have stores and some restaurants that pay above minimum wage like Costco ... Very little turnover because they actually treat their workers with respect and pay a living wage. I have a FB friend who's worked there (Costco) for years and in here in Atlanta that wage is a good living.

Some of y'all act like getting a new job is easy for everyone. It isn't. Which is why so many STAY at the jobs they're at.
 

StreetsofBeige

Gold Member
The flaw in your argument is you think raising wages would cause the incredible rise of prices... like that is the "natural" flow of inflation. That's artificial. And things eventually even out. Supply and demand is still a thing in retail. If the prices outweigh the supply of money, the demand will go down and cost the company that charges too much. The competition that has lower prices will win... Usually.

But as we've seen in the past 40+ years, as long as the minimum wage isn't tied to inflation, companies will pay the bare minimum and create a facade of "we're here for you!"

You have stores and some restaurants that pay above minimum wage like Costco ... Very little turnover because they actually treat their workers with respect and pay a living wage. I have a FB friend who's worked there (Costco) for years and in here in Atlanta that wage is a good living.

Some of y'all act like getting a new job is easy for everyone. It isn't. Which is why so many STAY at the jobs they're at.
As things go up in cost so do prices. So it's not like boosting everyone making low money has zero effect.

Here's a good site I found that does USA inflation math.


I looked at USA federal minimum wages over the years and took 1956 as a benchmark since it was $1.00 to make it easy.

If you type in 1956, using $1.00, you get $27.44. Thats 2644% inflation over 65 years at a compounded rate of 5.4%.

If federal minimum wage was set at $27.44 (and states went beyond that like now setting at lets say $30-40), the prices would be sky high and anyone making $27.44 would still be broke because a loaf of bread would probably be $10 and not $2. Anyone making $100k would probably be making $300k. The only way it would work out is if low end jobbers got a big boost and anyone making good money didnt really go up compared to now so the wage gap squeezes tight. The current USA avg wage is about $27/hr just by luck.
 
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420bits

Member
Yknow, people say this, but I was a high school dropout who busted my balls at various smaller restaurants, eventually worked my way up to manager at one, then a manager at a retail store, paid my way through community college, and eventually got myself into better and better gigs to the point where I was able to make a living wage where I am now. Still looking to improve

People expect entry level jobs to support above entry level lifestyles. It doesn't exactly equate to me

Should a Wal-Mart greeter really make enough to feed a family of three while paying a mortgage? I'm not so sure

Spent close to 15 years in first / second line techsupport / teamleader for some of the biggest companies in Sweden. I lived in a 1 room apartment in a ghetto, I ate pretty much roonies and noodles and vaccation was me sitting infront of a computer, not being able to afford doing anywhere unless i denied myself something else.
It was shit but it was all on me, if I wanted more money I knew I would have to get a new job. You shouldn't make a fuckton of money doing a shitjob without any qualifications other than "don't be a dick!".
Handing other people food while smiling is a useless job in all possible ways but one, to school "firsttimers" that real life is rough, you don't always get what you want even if you work work hard for it, its mostly just luck in the end or you need to find another job.

So I did move, 7 years ago i moved across the country to another city. I didn't have a job, I had money to live job-less for 4 months and with about half a paycheck left before I was broke I got a new job.
2 years later from doing groundfloor-stuff I became Incident Manager, around 15k users and another 40-50k students using our plattform.
From there I landed a mangerposition and for the past 4 years I've been running the techsupport and in 2 years time my current boss will retire and if I want that job, its mine.

Zero education apart from highschool and I make like 4x the money now compared to when I started.

The honest truth is that if you flip burgers at MCD or pack a bag at wallmart or sits in a helpdesk of any form is an unqualified job and should be paid based on that. But it seems that everyone is entitled nowadays so you should be able to buy a Tesla regardless of your job.
If you want to own your house, have a nice car or kids, then get a job that supports it and not the other way around.

Also, unpopular opinion, teachers DON'T deserve a raise, some teachers do, most of them don't. Teachers is a special breed of fucktards who for some reason think they are THE most important thing we have on earth.
Most of the teachers I've had or talked to in my daily job I wouldn't trust to pack my bags at the grocerystore.
 

A.Romero

Member
Wages and salaries are heavily dependent on demand and budget. A google software engineer can make $200,000, but a guy working at a small tech company might do something similar and valuable and make $100,000. Comes down to budget.

I dont know about other industries, but my office life seems to be skewing to leaner and meaner. Theyd rather keep fewer people and pay them more than hire more brainpower for cheaper where the wage budget is the same. They could literally hire 3 people out of university for my compensation. But they rather keep me or my colleagues at the same level. When they do hire more people, it's at a snails pace.

Probably has to do with how fast paced the world is. Cant spend time training people for years. For certain things, it might be better to keep vets at high pay as long as possible before axing them for cheaper, although typically once you hit that 60 year mark anyone is on the firing line.

As for automation, I dont see it yet except things like automated ordering screens at fast food joints. There might be more big examples out there taking over low end jobs, but thats the only one I can think of off the top of my head.

However, as more ordering boards reduce cash register people, it increases cooks. So it balances out some way. This can be seen with automated check outs that have been flooding retailers for 10 years. On the surface it seems tons of cashiers would be out of a job, yet before covid meltdown, unemployment levels in most western countries were probably at or near record lows. So they are getting hired for something else.

The Costcos by me now have automated ordering screens. You cant order by walking up anymore. But now instead of one cashier handling snack food and two cooks, it's now 3 cooks churning out hotdogs faster than before. Theyve ramped up cooking so fast, they even pile up stacks of hotdogs in the foil ready to go instead of the old way of making one at a time as people order them.

And no doubt the typical McDonalds I go into has way more cooks and drive thru workers than before. But only one cashier for walk ups.

Automation is way more advanced than people think. Taking your cooking example, this proof of concept was shown almost 5 years ago:



There are warehouses that are almost fully automated, drones than can tell if someone is not wearing the proper security equipment (flying without an operator), self driving cars are around the corner (what do you think will happen to taxis and truck drivers?), robots taking calls at call centers at a way more efficient rate than any person before ... This is advancing really fast. People is not aware how imminent these changes are.

Office jobs are being impacted too. For example, managing cloud based infrastructure requires way less people than a regular data center. Saudi Arabia has pretty much digitized every single government service for their citizens and have aggressive plans to leverage AI for everything, investing 20 billion dollars in their 2030 vision.

As you said, jobs are valued by supply and demand (as pretty much everything else). It doesn't have anything to do with their impact in society. Companies always go for the cheapest they can, it's the nature of the system. Robots are bringing a new option to the table that means around 80% of jobs will be susceptible to automation and employers will embrace it because they will be cheaper, more efficient, don't unionize, don't sue and are 100% predictable.

I insist we must really keep this in mind going forward and rethink the way we understand work and our contribution to society. This is a serious global scale issue that nobody seems to be paying attention to.
 
I’m actually a bit worried about my company, we have 5 open roles that are paying super well (like tripple digits for the graphic design role) but having the hardest time getting good talent to apply. What’s worse is will likely lose some people soon as upper management desided now would be a great time to force people back into the office full time and if you decline, they’ll be letting you go.
People can always be self-employeed or entrepreneurs. Especially in this world of crypto trading crypto staking crypto mines + streaming + youtube + brand creation and becoming an influencer making big bucks just for being yourself.
You'd always have low end jobs because there's only so many high paying jobs out there. Every society needs there low end service jobs (usually food and shopping mall jobs) and ultra skilled jobs like medicine and engineering.
Singularity after 2030 would surprise Vernor Vinge. We on the verge of radical change. Current robotics remotely controlled can perform all required tasks, the robots are good enough. We only missing the software and the world will change.

Google ceo says ai will be beyond fire, electricity or the internet, iirc.
This is not going to magically end when enhanced unemployment benefits run out.
Doge did like 50X multiplier between lows and highs this year. $10,000 invested or taken in a loan and put on doge, would have potentially resulted in $500,000 gain, a near 10+ year mcdonald salary earned instantly just from investing.

Currently rumor is uber wealthy are spending hundreds of millions to manipulate crypto prices down and cause paper hands to sell.
That's alright. Problem is that most likely in 30 years or less a lot jobs of different levels will be automated. Universal income will be the only option to continue forward. My only concern is the initial resistance that change will have. This is nothing compared to that
Elon Musk said perhaps within 5 years we may have true ai, human level ai. It is a very real possibility. The pace of progress is going faster than most realize. Even those trying to keep up are having trouble. It is only when people are unaware of the rate of change that they seem to believe things are going slower than they are.
 

oagboghi2

Member
Not necessarily, but I feel we should somehow factor in the utility of the work (e.g. if no one does it society will 'stall') when setting pay levels. A cable technician does useful work too, but there is a difference between someone you basically entrust your kids to while you go to work, and someone who'll fix the internet at your house that I feel is not reflected in the salary. I'm concerned with people in marketing and HR departments in large corporations taking home far more money than an average teacher, while the work they do is of limited utility at best, oftentimes even of overall negative utility. It's incomparable to raising/educating children anyway. It feels to me like wages in corporations don't get set by any reasonable standard.
Teachers salary and a cable technician salary are set by the same standard. What people are willing to work for, vs what the employer is willing to pay.

This idea that teachers "deserve" extra pay just because they are teachers is nonsense. Should we pay bad teachers extra as well?
Automation is way more advanced than people think. Taking your cooking example, this proof of concept was shown almost 5 years ago:



There are warehouses that are almost fully automated, drones than can tell if someone is not wearing the proper security equipment (flying without an operator), self driving cars are around the corner (what do you think will happen to taxis and truck drivers?), robots taking calls at call centers at a way more efficient rate than any person before ... This is advancing really fast. People is not aware how imminent these changes are.

Office jobs are being impacted too. For example, managing cloud based infrastructure requires way less people than a regular data center. Saudi Arabia has pretty much digitized every single government service for their citizens and have aggressive plans to leverage AI for everything, investing 20 billion dollars in their 2030 vision.

As you said, jobs are valued by supply and demand (as pretty much everything else). It doesn't have anything to do with their impact in society. Companies always go for the cheapest they can, it's the nature of the system. Robots are bringing a new option to the table that means around 80% of jobs will be susceptible to automation and employers will embrace it because they will be cheaper, more efficient, don't unionize, don't sue and are 100% predictable.

I insist we must really keep this in mind going forward and rethink the way we understand work and our contribution to society. This is a serious global scale issue that nobody seems to be paying attention to.

People heavily overestimate how advanced Ai is, and how many jobs they will eliminate. look into the status of self driving cars, or robot cooks. They aren't as great as you think
 

StreetsofBeige

Gold Member
Your regular reminder that the Pell Grant can be used for vocational schools. If you don't like your current low-end shit job you can literally get training for a much better job in the trades in 6 months part time.
Its not even limited to trade programs. My buddy from university (we did the same business program) did night classes for internet stuff 10 years ago because he wanted to get into that. Work during the day, night program after dinner. I dont know how long it was but probably half a year too. No way it was a multiyear thing. It was some certificate program that showed him how to do shit and cost $1000.

He got off his ass and did it and does internet stuff now. And its not like he had a shit job before. It was a decent typical office job, but he wanted something different. Ya, it was $1000 or so, but nothings free. If you cant or dont want to scrape together $1000 or get a school loan for a couple grand to do some training, thats on you. I've never done one of these programs but I'm going to assume the gov will also support student loans for inexpensive certification programs and not just big 4 year degree stuff.

One of my old coworkers taught college classes at night for a bit of side money. There's classes full of adults wanting to learn business admin after dinner. Again, not a a 3 or 4 year program thing, but more certification programs for people who want some formal training. Better than nothing.
 
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This idea that teachers "deserve" extra pay just because they are teachers is nonsense. Should we pay bad teachers extra as well?
why not go to new york and live like a homeless trash collection employee. The trash man earns $80+k to $100+K in new york, iirc. Live homeless and cost of living is near $0. Save the big bucks invest and in about a decade you have $1+Million invested with like $45K income from dividends + stock value growth over time(means dividend income doubles every few years) if invested in high dividend stocks. Go retire in some low cost area and live forever in FIRE, Financial independence retire early, iirc.

Teachers need to be paid, but based on whether they are good teachers or not. I myself believe to be a kind of a teacher, but I teach for free online, through communication.

BTW california supposedly paying 200k$ to pick up human feces and needles from the streets, iirc
 
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A.Romero

Member
Teachers salary and a cable technician salary are set by the same standard. What people are willing to work for, vs what the employer is willing to pay.

This idea that teachers "deserve" extra pay just because they are teachers is nonsense. Should we pay bad teachers extra as well?

People heavily overestimate how advanced Ai is, and how many jobs they will eliminate. look into the status of self driving cars, or robot cooks. They aren't as great as you think

I'm in the industry, I know.
 

QSD

Member
Teachers salary and a cable technician salary are set by the same standard. What people are willing to work for, vs what the employer is willing to pay.

This idea that teachers "deserve" extra pay just because they are teachers is nonsense. Should we pay bad teachers extra as well?
You literally entrust your kids to them every single day. Don't you think that's a different tier of responsibility compared to a cable repair guy? Unless you value your kids about as much as you value the wiring in your house...

The discussion I was having with StreetsofBeige StreetsofBeige was about what to do about massive shortages of teachers in my country. It seems competent people aren't really willing to work anymore for a regular teachers' salary.

I don't know what the point is you are trying to make about bad teachers? I believe a good teacher is worth tons more than a mediocre/bad CEO, yet the latter gets paid way more for basically just doing damage. That kind of shit is fucked up and needs to change ASAP.
 

SafeOrAlone

Banned
In California we just had another $600 "stimulus" approved. Funny thing is, it wont arrive until September, which is when Newsom is up for recall. They're trying to pretend this is badly needed pandemic money. Yet the approval was sitting on Newsom's desk for over a week and somehow it's going to take several months to arrive.

So "funny".
 
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DeafTourette

Perpetually Offended
Looks like inflation is up and prices are skyrocketing and the average worker hasn't gotten that pay increase some folks are fighting for. I wonder why that is... Can't blame a minimum wage increase or ANY wage increase.

 
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StreetsofBeige

Gold Member
Looks like inflation is up and prices are skyrocketing and the average worker hasn't gotten that pay increase some folks are fighting for. I wonder why that is... Can't blame a minimum wage increase or ANY wage increase.


Probably the same reason why wages dont go down when companies are struggling, losing money or shut down due to covid with limited staff.
 
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