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[borghe]

Well, the unabridged audio CDs are readily available on WalMart.com, the book version will be out in a week, and tons of info, scans, pictures, etc are already on the net... it is time to kick this puppy wide open. This thread will contain spoilers and it is the point of the thread. To talk about the story openly.. so tread lightly and cautiously throughout the thread if you really don't want to be spoiled for the movie (or reading the book for the first time).

I now have to say this is far and away my favorite part of the saga... it doesn't necessarily redeem the first two movies... they are still behind ESB and at least clones behind ANH... but Revenge of the Sith... it really benefits from the whole saga.

Many people were wondering if Lucas could tie everything together. Many viewed the PT as superfluous.. a reason to make films, make money, and no real connection with the OT besides what Lucas jammed down our throats. Well, have whatever opinion you may about the first two movies, this story really does extend the OT.. It really gives new meaning to the OT in a way that is natural; a way that makes you feel as if something was missing this whole time. And if it is any consolation, I never EVER felt that way about the other two movies, despite my love for them.

So.. enough rhetoric.. What do I actually love so much about this story?

Anakin's and Obi-Wan's entirely platonic friendship but with very strong platonic feelings towards each other. You see it in the beginning during their space battle and fight with Dooku.. you see it in Anakin's frustration, yet realizing it isn't Kenobi frustrating him. You see it even when Palpatine is trying to finish turning Anakin once and for all (and right before he actually does). But most importantly, you see it in Obi-Wan at the end, even after everything that has happened, you see his dedication to an old friend. This is what I mean by enhancing the OT. It IMHO really makes Guiness' line "And he was a good friend" even more emotional. This was someone that Obi-Wan had not only dedicated 15 years of his life to, but in fact an additional 20 years of his life watching over his child. 25 years of dedication to a friendship that turned out like it did...

Sidious is just evil. Really... I am SO glad they expanded his role, if even slightly, in the Sepcial Special Editions, because really he is the star of the saga. Well, the dark star of the Saga. The entire saga can be spelled out as the Sith's rise to power and the one man who can actually stop them. And all of his failures along the way. But Sidious... everything is a plan... everything goes as designed (well, except for Obi-Wan winning). There is a line in the book... That he has waited for this moment forever... from even before assuming the role as a senator from an out of the way planet like Naboo. One really wonders how old Sidious is and how long exactly he has been planning this for.

The Duel... as written, the duel is just emotional. I can't even imagine how it is going to affect me on screen. Two brothers who at that precise moment have so much contempt for each other, so much hatred for each other, that they really don't want the other one to live.

And the end... most of you have already probably read the scans out of the last chapter... I mean wow.... just wow.. I know much of that will probably not make it to the screen, but as written......... From the deciding of the twins future.. The descriptions of what it is like to be Anakin Skywalker.. forever.. some of the strongest prose I have ever read.

Now I won't jump in and say George Lucas has smacked it out of the park.. there is very much in a movie that can go wrong besides the story... but the story... well, THAT he smacked out of the park. That is a bugs bunny classic 10000 feet over the stadium wall and downtown a good few miles..

anyway, discuss..

 

[BojTrek]

I have never been able to be the dick in these posts... but...

Or we could just look in these posts...

http://forums.gaming-age.com/showthread.php?t=27214&highlight=star+wars

http://forums.gaming-age.com/showthread.php?t=39874&highlight=star+wars

http://forums.gaming-age.com/showthread.php?t=38985&highlight=star+wars

I don't know???

 

[borghe]

first of all, the last two threads have been dormant for 5 and 14 days respectively.. you seriously don't expect someone to search through threads and bump up 2 week old threads because they want to post about something

"Hmm.. I want to post about walmart.. let's see if there are any walmart threads from the last month or two that I can post in"

As for the pics thread, this serves as a VERY distinctly different thread. The pic thread has spoilers, but it is sstill safe from someone who doesn't want to know the whole story. That isn't the purpose of this thread. This thread is to talk about the narrative in its entirety. It's like making a PSP thread about the quality of the screen and then someone making a connectivity thread about the PSP and saying they should put connectivity stuff in the screen thread also..

So yes, this is about ROTS, just like the other three threads. But this isn't JUST like the other three threads. this is talking about the actual story in its entirety. We now have the story available to us, completely. Not pieced together from reports or leaks but the actual written story in its entirety. I want to discuss that. I felt that warranted a brand new thread.... seems to make sense to not have to stick it in a picture thread or a thread about comments from an interview, etc.

 

[Kenobi]

all you really had to do was type "episode III" in the search and then viola...everyone else has been doing it. But I can see what you're saying.

 

[EviLore]

Official Revenge of the Sith Thread *spoilers*

Your thread isn't official.

 

[Escape Goat]

I dub thee...unofficial.

 

[radioheadrule83]

Do you have the audio books / book yourself?

I'm not sure if I'd want to listen or read either in fear of what it might do to my viewing of the film... but damn, good impressions!

 

[borghe]

Do you have the audio books / book yourself?

I'm not sure if I'd want to listen or read either in fear of what it might do to my viewing of the film... but damn, good impressions!

I have the *shudder*abridged*shudder* audio book myself and have listened to it.. there are also scans of the book and the unabridged audio book floating out there that has flushed out some of the detail (fucking abridged book)...

I am not worried. I read AOTC before I saw the film and if anything it made the film more enjoyable for me.. I still got e3xcited at finally seeing everything on the screen for the first time, and if anything it took away some of the anticipation or anxiety of what was and wasn't going to be in the film....

so that is the same with this now... I know exactly what the story is (and it is awesome) so now I can go into the film and watch it all play out on screen....

I can't wait to see Anakin's seduction.... I was worried about that. I was one of the people who thought the love story in AOTC was kind of forced and was worried the seduction and turning would be forced also.. it isn't... on the contrary it is so well done you can't help but feel sorry for anakin because you know you would have turned the exact same fucking way.... sidious is just a fucking prick.

 

[Willco]

Books do not a good movie make.

I heard the novelizations of The Phantom Menace and Attack of the Clones were quite good, but - damn! - did some of the dialogue in those movies suck donkey balls.

 

[borghe]

Books do not a good movie make.

I heard the novelizations of The Phantom Menace and Attack of the Clones were quite good, but - damn! - did some of the dialogue in those movies suck donkey balls.

Now I won't jump in and say George Lucas has smacked it out of the park.. there is very much in a movie that can go wrong besides the story... but the story... well, THAT he smacked out of the park. That is a bugs bunny classic 10000 feet over the stadium wall and downtown a good few miles..

The dailogue used in all of the novels (and presumably this one) were pretty indicative of the final movies.. that being said.. there are some WAAAYY hokey lines in here.. but also some waaayy great ones..

yes, Lucas could still muck it up by using the Lucas touch and magically turning all of the actors into fine pieces of oak.. but the story is solid.. which is what I was covering here.. any complaints anyone had about the actual stories of the PT should pretty much all be done away with and tossed away forever here. This story is near perfect.. well, at least really good.

though personally the movies have always had hokey lines.. even ESB had plenty of hokey shit in it.. "THEN I'LL SEE YOU IN HELL!!!". this is no different and to me that has always been part of the charm. we'll see how the movie turns out.

 

[DopeyFish]

i'd say most of the dialogue is great compared to a few exceptions.

Sidious/Obi-wan/Anakin/Yoda and Dooku have some really awesome lines

 

[KingGondo]

Anakin's and Obi-Wan's friendship, nay, their love for each other.

I'm sorry, but :lol

What century are we in again?

 

[borghe]

ok, that may have been a tad dramatic...

fucker

 

[Prince of Space]

The dailogue used in all of the novels (and presumably this one) were pretty indicative of the final movies..

No. The dialog in the books was about 5x better than what was actually in the movies.

 

[ManaByte]

I'm sorry, but :lol

What century are we in again?

From the graphic novel (since this thread is clearly marked as spoilers I won't tag this):
Obi-Wan: "You were the chosen one! It was said that you would destroy the Sith, not join them. You were my brother Anakin. I love you...but I won't help you."

Basically Obi-Wan and Anakin go from a father/son relationship to brother/brother when Anakin is knighted before Episode III.

 

[Willco]

though personally the movies have always had hokey lines.. even ESB had plenty of hokey shit in it.. "THEN I'LL SEE YOU IN HELL!!!". this is no different and to me that has always been part of the charm. we'll see how the movie turns out.

Don't even bring up the 'ole "The OT is just as bad!" trick, because it doesn't work. Yeah, it has some bad moments here and there, but they're few and far between and nothing comes close to the angsty commentary of Anakin in Episode II. Ugh.

Love stuff was pretty bad too.

 

[borghe]

Well, personally I am one of the ones that believes it was and is all crap (the dialogue I mean). That everyone talks about how great the dialogue was in the OT and it sucks in the PT because they can't get past their nostalgia, were let down by the PT so look for things wrong, etc.

"Would it help if I got out and pushed"
"Where did you dig up this fossil"
"I'd rather kiss a wookie"
"Awwwwww, I was gonna go to Toshi Station and pick up some power gonverters"
"See you in hell"

etc.. and that only took mike like 5 seconds to come up with those.. but I'm not going to quote the whole saga of which like 70% of the dialogue is just flat and ridiculous..

the entire saga is just horrendous dialogue.. what the PT DOES have that the OT didn't have is lots of flat and wooden delivery of said dialogue. Now if that is what you are referring to I agree completely. But if you are honestly trying to tell me that the dialogue (and just the dialogue) of the OT is somehow elevated above the PT.. well you my friend are looking at things with rose colored glasses. Because the words spoken in OT were pretty much shit also.. it was just so much fun that none of us cared. likew watching a fun campy movie with some really sweet space and sword battles.

 

[BojTrek]

Holy shit... Yoda Vs. Palps looks fucking incredible... MAJOR SPOILER PICTURES BELOW...

PICTURES MIGHT TAKE SOME TIME TO LOAD

 

[radioheadrule83]

*DROOOOOOL*

7 and a half weeks left!

 

[KingGondo]

From the graphic novel (since this thread is clearly marked as spoilers I won't tag this):
Obi-Wan: "You were the chosen one! It was said that you would destroy the Sith, not join them. You were my brother Anakin. I love you...but I won't help you."

Basically Obi-Wan and Anakin go from a father/son relationship to brother/brother when Anakin is knighted before Episode III.

I wasn't laughing at their relationship--there's nothing wrong with it.

I was laughing at Borghe's melodramatic portrayal of it.

 

[Willco]

Well, personally I am one of the ones that believes it was and is all crap (the dialogue I mean). That everyone talks about how great the dialogue was in the OT and it sucks in the PT because they can't get past their nostalgia, were let down by the PT so look for things wrong, etc.

I don't think anyone ever said the OT trilogy was written by David Mamet or a perfect dialogue, but nothing make you want to stop the movie right then and there. And nothing is as bad as the PT trilogy. It has nothing to do with nostalgia and everything to do with the PT dialogue is just horrible.

etc.. and that only took mike like 5 seconds to come up with those.. but I'm not going to quote the whole saga of which like 70% of the dialogue is just flat and ridiculous..

Again, nothing you posted came close to the worst dialogue in the PT trilogy, at all.

The whole, "PEOPLE JUST LOVE THE OT TRILOGY BECAUSE OF NOSTALGIA" is by far the most asanine excuse I've ever heard.

 

[Escape Goat]

"Would it help if I got out and pushed"

:lol

The look that Han gives her and points a finger in her face "It might!" was hilarious :lol

 

[Tritroid]

I don't think anyone ever said the OT trilogy was written by David Mamet or a perfect dialogue, but nothing make you want to stop the movie right then and there. And nothing is as bad as the PT trilogy. It has nothing to do with nostalgia and everything to do with the PT dialogue is just horrible.



Again, nothing you posted came close to the worst dialogue in the PT trilogy, at all.

The whole, "PEOPLE JUST LOVE THE OT TRILOGY BECAUSE OF NOSTALGIA" is by far the most asanine excuse I've ever heard.

Are you going to troll every Episode III thread from here on out?

Give it a fucking rest.

 

[Willco]

:lol

The look that Han gives her and points a finger in her face "It might!" was hilarious :lol

Yeah, that line is pretty funny. I think it speaks more about Harrison Ford's acting ability than anything else.

Are you going to troll every Episode III thread from here on out?

Give it a fucking rest.

Uh, I wasn't trolling this thread, I was responding to borghe. God, are you going to get bent out of shape about every possible negative Star Wars comment?

Give it a fucking rest.

 

[Tritroid]

Uh, I wasn't trolling this thread, I was responding to borghe. God, are you going to get bent out of shape about every possible negative Star Wars comment?

Give it a fucking rest.

Yes, I am, because they're consistently coming from the same person.

So stfu, you're ruining the hype.

 

[Willco]

Yes, I am, because they're consistently coming from the same person.

... By person do you mean everybody?

So stfu, you're ruining the hype.

:lol

I am ruining the hype? Someone call LucasFilm, because if they don't stop me, this movie will tank! I'm genuinely interested in Episode III, I liked the trailer, but that doesn't mean I can't say the first two prequels sucked, because they did.

I entered this thread thinking someone had actually seen the film, but instead got a review of a novelization, which really does not represent the film that well as both previous novelizations, as already stated, have been quite good, while the films have been quite poor.

 

[mrkgoo]

ok, maybe it's nostalgia talking, but it seems that there are many more 'quotable' quotes in the OT. The kinds of lines that I have repeating in my head, or get recalled when someone says anything remotely like them. Definitely more than the PT.

Stuff like:

"Impressive. Most impressive."
"You came in THAT thing? You're braver than I thought."
"Your faith in your friends is yours."

etc. etc.


Perhaps it's delivery, rather than the actual dialogue itself (hard to remain unbiased after growing up with it. Star Wars IS my childhood):

""So be it...JEdiiii."
"And now young skywalker...you will die."

Maybe it's hokey, but Episode 2 can't have more than a handful of interesting dialogue to me. I actually really liked Episode I (I did see it, like many times). Lots of memorable lines, and great delivery by Liam.

Maybe the hate for the PTstems from its seriousness - there's no sarcastic comedy character. JarJar was meant to be the funny guy, but we all know how funny he is to most -
personally, I liked him:

"Hewo, dalee...uh..Captain tarpals."
"Yousa say boomdegasser, and mesa crash into da bosses heyblibber!" (I mean, What the Hell? - hilarious. It's like you don't understand a thing he says, but you get the idea anyway.)

 

[Rob]

Everyone is so stiff in the prequels, so regal and proper. There are no renegades. No roughnecks or unpolished characters like Han Solo. Part of the reason the acting is described as "wooden" in the prequels is because all of the characters are portrayed with a stick up their asses except for Qui Gon. If Captain Typho had been in Episode 1 instead of Panaka and given a larger role, I believe he had the potential to be the "Han" of the prequels. Even Samuel Jackson, who everyone seems to think is the 'coolest' actor on the planet, has had to severely supress his typical tough guy personality in favor of a dry expressionless mannequin.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. I'm actually looking forward to seeing the Jedi get wiped out. Their ways are so antequated and misquided. Not allowed to love?!? What idiot thought that one up?

 

[ManaByte]

If Captain Typho had been in Episode 1 instead of Panaka and given a larger role

Except the guy who played Typho wanted more money than Ewan, Hayden, and Natalie combined.

Sort of like Jet Li and the Matrix sequels. He wanted more money than the primary three cast members combined and wanted to be the main character in the two sequels. They told him to go fuck himself.

 

[Willco]

I am just going to use this thread to ask you ManaByte, what's the name of the Emperor's theme in Return of the Jedi?

 

[Prince of Space]

The Emperor's Theme.

 

[Willco]

The Emperor's Theme.

So simple to use no wonder everybody loves it! I went to Starwars.com trying to look for it and a splash page of Anakin came up with no John Williams music I've ever heard of. What's that about?

 

[ManaByte]

So simple to use no wonder everybody loves it! I went to Starwars.com trying to look for it and a splash page of Anakin came up with no John Williams music I've ever heard of. What's that about?

That's a combination of a cue for Jabba's Palace from ROTJ and the bit with the Imprial March/Vader's Theme is from the end credits music of Episode II.

 

[Willco]

That's a combination of a cue for Jabba's Palace from ROTJ and the bit with the Imprial March/Vader's Theme is from the end credits music of Episode II.

So it's not official or anything?

... Also, since the novelization and graphic novel are out and about, and we know Grievous' identity 100% FOR REAL, does anyone think Lucas & Co. absolutely blew it by not making it Maul, Sifo-Dyas or someone else? That would've been great. Now it's some throw-away droid guy. Not nearly as cool.

 

[ManaByte]

So it's not official or anything?

... Also, since the novelization and graphic novel are out and about, and we know Grievous' identity 100% FOR REAL, does anyone think Lucas & Co. absolutely blew it by not making it Maul, Sifo-Dyas or someone else? That would've been great. Now it's some throw-away droid guy. Not nearly as cool.

It's official, just LFL combined two cues for it. There is NO ROTS music on the flash site. Everything is from the other five movies.

Grievous is an experiment by Sidious, which he uses as the basis for Vader. Sidious set Grievous up in a shuttle crash so he could have a subject for his cyborg experiment.

Vader is basically a head and torso. Everything else is machine.

There was a point in the concept design stage where the artists where just fooling around where one of them did a concept design of Maul with robot legs. Since Maul wasn't going to be in Episode III he used that design for a comic in the Visionaries release where the robo-Maul fights Obi-Wan at the Lars homestead on Tatooine three years after ROTS.

 

[Willco]

Grievous is an experiment by Sidious, which he uses as the basis for Vader. Sidious set Grievous up in a shuttle crash so he could have a subject for his cyborg experiment.

Vader is basically a head and torso. Everything else is machine.

There was a point in the concept design stage where the artists where just fooling around where one of them did a concept design of Maul with robot legs. Since Maul wasn't going to be in Episode III he used that design for a comic in the Visionaries release where the robo-Maul fights Obi-Wan at the Lars homestead on Tatooine three years after ROTS.

I know who Grievous is, and I understand Lucas' reasoning, but it doesn't make it Grievous any less of a throw away character and a complete failure of using a device to bring back Maul or reference Sifo-Dyas. Anything. I mean, what a fabulous setup and the fact that Lucas doesn't even utilize it makes me wonder about the final product.

 

[ManaByte]

I know who Grievous is, and I understand Lucas' reasoning, but it doesn't make it Grievous any less of a throw away character and a complete failure of using a device to bring back Maul or reference Sifo-Dyas. Anything. I mean, what a fabulous setup and the fact that Lucas doesn't even utilize it makes me wonder about the final product.

All the bad guys except Sidious and Vader are supposed to be throw away characters. Maul and Tyrannus go out like bitches to show that Sidious can't choose a good apprentice. Even Vader gets fucked up and messes up Sidious' plan to have him be the perfect little Sithling. Which is why he's so eager to turn Luke in ROTJ. Throw away robo-Vader for a newer model.

 

[COCKLES]

Are you going to troll every Episode III thread from here on out?

Give it a fucking rest.

He needs something to do until Sam Rami fucks up another Spiderman movie.

 

[Willco]

All the bad guys except Sidious and Vader are supposed to be throw away characters.

Do you really believe that or did LucasFilm just send you a press release to spoon feed me?

I mean, c'mon, Maul was a great character that was never realized. Lucas had a chance to incorporate the only positive thing the masses remember from Episode I by giving him a second chance in General Grievous armor, but he blew it. The design for Grievous is so great, but there's no substance. That's a shame.

Maul and Tyrannus go out like bitches to show that Sidious can't choose a good apprentice. Even Vader gets fucked up and messes up Sidious' plan to have him be the perfect little Sithling. Which is why he's so eager to turn Luke in ROTJ. Throw away robo-Vader for a newer model.

I was under the impression that your shelf life as a Sith apprentice was always short due to the way that faction tends to deal in treachery, betrayal, etc. I'm not sure the fact that Darth Maul was punk'd by one of the most notable Jedi warriors (worthy of the Jedi archives, some might say) and Tyranus is defeated at the hands of the so-called "Chosen One" means he can't pick a good apprentice.

He needs something to do until Sam Rami fucks up another Spiderman movie.

What are you rambling about again? I think you're confused. This thread is for STAR WARS not CRAPTRIX (omg 2 funny 4 u!).

 

[Matlock]

So wait--I've read on some places that Grievous uses his legs for lightsabering...but in Clone Wars, he has two arms that pop out of his arms. WTF is the right story here?

 

[Willco]

So wait--I've read on some places that Grievous uses his legs for lightsabering...but in Clone Wars, he has two arms that pop out of his arms. WTF is the right story here?

I believe he can use both his legs and arms, it's just that he has four arms. Like he'll do cartwheels and crap and use his legs in the same motion.

 

[DopeyFish]

oh yeah... who the feck is Boga?

 

[ManaByte]

oh yeah... who the feck is Boga?

It's a giant lizard that Obi-Wan rides while on Utapau.

 

[DopeyFish]

It's a giant lizard that Obi-Wan rides while on Utapau.

Well Boga is making the grievous part really boring.

 

[ManaByte]

Well Boga is making the grievous part really boring.

 

[borghe]

Willco.. in response to throw away villains... (mind you before the PT and SE's)

Greedo
Tarkin
Jabba
Emperor (to a degree and quite literally... lol..)

These are guys who all appeared in one movie.. at most. Emperor was two movies technically, though his original unedited appearance in ESB served very little purpose. Also, I think had he made Maul greivous, it would have done two things:

a) made sidious seem more compassionate, of which there is only one compasionate thing he does in the entire saga.
b) would have been REALLY over the top. I'm not saying none of this is over the top.. but vader only has all of his limbs removed. grievous same thing basically... maul was freaking cut in two... right at the stomach.. he didn't just need new legs or arms but an entire midsection as well... but that is for the fanboys to argue.

back on topic.. I just realized something. IMHO vader really becomes a sympathetic character with these movies. He didn't turn because of his arrogance or his rebelliousness (though he had both in spades). He actually turned INSPITE of those qualities. No, he turned out of love.. out of the desire to save the woman he loved. Thus the tragic hero. But here's the thing. He WASN'T (IMHO) a tragic hero in the OT. He was in fact the ruthless killer. The killing machine with no purpose other than to serve. So what do you do when your killing machine is given a soul and sympathy? You create a new killing machine, in this case Darth Sidious.

Here is where this came from. After listening to choice excerpts from the novel again, Sidious is just a dick. He set Dooku up for 13 years only to kill him (and Dooku wasn't evil at all I don't think). He spent the entire novel playing on Anakin's lesser traits to turn him. Lied to the republic for years. Destroyed the governement, and then as soon as he finds out Anakin has offspring, sets out to remove Anakin as his apprentice in favor for fully-limed Skywalker.

So Vader is now sympathetic, and the saga has a new lasting villain.. heh.

 

[soundwave05]

Willco.. in response to throw away villains... (mind you before the PT and SE's)

Greedo
Tarkin
Jabba
Emperor (to a degree and quite literally... lol..)

These are guys who all appeared in one movie.. at most. Emperor was two movies technically, though his original unedited appearance in ESB served very little purpose. Also, I think had he made Maul greivous, it would have done two things:

a) made sidious seem more compassionate, of which there is only one compasionate thing he does in the entire saga.
b) would have been REALLY over the top. I'm not saying none of this is over the top.. but vader only has all of his limbs removed. grievous same thing basically... maul was freaking cut in two... right at the stomach.. he didn't just need new legs or arms but an entire midsection as well... but that is for the fanboys to argue.

back on topic.. I just realized something. IMHO vader really becomes a sympathetic character with these movies. He didn't turn because of his arrogance or his rebelliousness (though he had both in spades). He actually turned INSPITE of those qualities. No, he turned out of love.. out of the desire to save the woman he loved. Thus the tragic hero. But here's the thing. He WASN'T (IMHO) a tragic hero in the OT. He was in fact the ruthless killer. The killing machine with no purpose other than to serve. So what do you do when your killing machine is given a soul and sympathy? You create a new killing machine, in this case Darth Sidious.

Here is where this came from. After listening to choice excerpts from the novel again, Sidious is just a dick. He set Dooku up for 13 years only to kill him (and Dooku wasn't evil at all I don't think). He spent the entire novel playing on Anakin's lesser traits to turn him. Lied to the republic for years. Destroyed the governement, and then as soon as he finds out Anakin has offspring, sets out to remove Anakin as his apprentice in favor for fully-limed Skywalker.

So Vader is now sympathetic, and the saga has a new lasting villain.. heh.

Vader was always sympathic from 1983 onwards. A character just can't turn evil because he's a jackass or a bastard, otherwise a redemption doesn't work, so of course Anakin has to have a some what noble purpose, but also it his arrogance and impatience on top of that which also leads him to the Dark Side.

There's an old saying which sums up Anakin Skywalker pretty well "the road to hell is paved with good intentions".

The Emperor is more than just a "dick", he is prime evil, the very embodiment of the Dark Side.

As for why there are so many Sith apprentices/henchmen, well the Sith order only allows a few at a time (basically 2 or 3 tops, in the case of 3, you know one is going to get killed at least). So it makes sense that Palpatine/Dooku would always be on the lookout or training future apprentices.

 

[borghe]

my problem (well, not problem, but magging little voice in the back of my head) was this with ROTJ...

ANH Vader Check - Kills, Kills, Kills, and at the end gets pissed
ESB Vader Check - Kills, Kills, Kills, tries to corrupt, when that fails threatens to kill, and at the end gets pissed
ROTJ Vader Check - Well, ok, no Vader killing, but nevertheless just wants to turn in Luke to the Emperor..

I mean I realize the redemption was always there, but it just felt so forced in ROTJ... that was always kind of the voice in the back of my head saying "This isn't really as dramatic as you want it to be sucka." Now with ROTS and the PT (well, II and III) IMHO he is much more sympathetic.. and to those who mention AOTC.. even though the movie did a rough job of portraying it, in AOTC he was arrogant and jealous, but neither of those qualities is why he actually turns in ROTS. As I said, Sidious actually FAILS in turning him on those qualities and finally it takes his love for Padme to turn him.. go figure...

Yeah, I get that Sidious is the embodiment of evil.. I was being a tad facetious with the "dick" comment. One thing I had brought up is I wonder how long Sidious had been planning this for. I don't think Palpatine was real "I shall miss the face of Palpatine, but this one shall do just as well from now on" so how long had he been planning this coup for... hmm..

 

[soundwave05]

I think there's a lot of build up in ROTJ to the end scene.

There's definitely an intentional hint of sadness (Darth fucking Vader is sad) when he has that conversation with Luke on Endor and says "it is too late for me, son".

Everything that drives Luke Skywalker in ROTJ is the fact that he senses there is conflict inside of Darth Vader, that Anakin (the good side) is still in there somewhere.

The Emperor is basically the devil, more cunning and slithering, lurking in the shadows, manipulative, playing on your fears. You'll notice the main villains in Lord of the Rings are the same way (Saruman, Wormtounge, The Mouth of Sauron, etc.). Most good villains are actually -- they tax you mentally until they break you (Batman's arch nemesis is ... the Joker for instance).

The Clone Wars cartoon does a much better job of setting up Anakin's character than Ep. I or II do though.

These are all classic character archetypes we all recoginize. Michael Corleonge only gets involved in the mob business with the best of intentions as well (to protect his family), but in the end it leads to the destruction of his family. The Hero with A Thousand Faces ... all that sorta stuff.

 

[evil ways]

a) made sidious seem more compassionate, of which there is only one compasionate thing he does in the entire saga.

Why would you want that? He's supposed to be a greedy, power hungry, lying politician. Plus Siths have no mercy or compasion towards anything, including their own.