igordennis
Member
Lmao do you realize what thread you are in. Must you make it so obvious that you didn't read that massive OP that apparenly was written by someone that wasn't paying attention?
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Rey as a Mary Sue [STAR WARS: THE FORCE AWAKENS SPOILERS]
- Thread starter Veelk
- Start date
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Lmao do you realize what thread you are in. Must you make it so obvious that you didn't read that massive OP that apparenly was written by someone that wasn't paying attention?
ZehDon
Member
Well, I feel you're ignoring the rest of my post, because I never said it was a positive comparison, only a direct one. The character isn't a "badass", and his "badasssery" has zero to do with the rest of my post. As I mentioned in an earlier post in this thread, which I think was actually replying to an earlier post of yours, I like Ren as a character. I think he's incredibly interesting, and he's the character who's growth most interests me in future films. Ren has clear faults, and they undermine his obvious training and dedication. Rey has no faults and easily defeats him, despite his dedication and training. Ren, along with every other trained Sith and Jedi in the Star Wars cannon, is utterly undermined by Rey's inexplicable mastery of the force. I hope this explains my criticism of Rey, but if something doesn't make sense, please let me know and I'll try to explain it better.
Brawndo Addict
Banned
Putting Rey completely aside, if people don't understand that the movie was setting up Ren as a conflicted villain with a possibility of redemption, I honestly don't know how to explain subtext or acting.
Except for pretty much everything involving Rey from the moment she finds Luke's saber.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
But the rest of your post only works if the comparison is a positive one. You don't have to outright say it, it's easily inferred as the whole thrust of your argument is dependent on that comparison being somewhat favorable to Kylo.
It isn't. Not in that room, not in front of Hux and Snoke, and definitely not in front of Rey, who flat out throws it in his face how far short he considers himself to be.
PHOENIXZERO
Member
The biggest problem with the character isn't the character but the cynicism of audiences today.
I just want to know why people care so much as to whether she's a "Mary Sue" or not, personally I don't give a shit. She's 100% likable and easy to get invested in. Complaints about "plot armor" or her not ever being in real peril are just excuses that can be applied to nearly every main character in the history of storytelling. That's why when the main character or hero (or falls) dies in a story it comes off as a surprise and is met with a varying range of responses.
It's not as if she made zero mistakes in the movie either. As I've said a number of times before, she's basically representation of Anakin before his fall while Kylo Ren is Anakin after he fell but he's not quite Vader yet. The Force was never meant to be something that needed a lot of training to access either as shown repeatedly in the past how easily it can come to those who are naturally gifted. Rey's mind isn't clouded by doubt or cynicism as Luke's was, she's as much of a fangirl of the stories of the rebellion and its heroes (including Luke) as Ren is a fanboy of Darth Vader. Ren is a Padawan who fancies himself a Knight, it's clear he didn't receive much training from Luke or in his arrogance didn't listen to whatever Luke was trying to teach him. He's the grandson of the most powerful Jedi in the Order's history (or well potential) who has bought into his own hype when he's not even at Padawan Ben Kenobi's.
I still see way too many people discounting just how strong Kylo Ren's handicap was when facing Finn and then Rey even though the movie made it a point to repeatedly show just how powerful Chewbacca's bowcaster is and Kylo Ren's internal struggle which clearly left him completely unfocused and what he did not being the remedy he thought it'd be. Rey believed, focused and did a couple of the most basic of Jedi abilities, she let the Force in and submitted to its will, it wasn't so much Rey that beat Kylo Ren as it was the Force.
We're in act one of a three act story as nice as it would've been to have a nice standalone movie there's really no reason to when you know you have two more that are coming. On top of that I'm sure that early on in the second movie we're going to learn Rey was such a natural at it because of who she is or was.
I just want to know why people care so much as to whether she's a "Mary Sue" or not, personally I don't give a shit. She's 100% likable and easy to get invested in. Complaints about "plot armor" or her not ever being in real peril are just excuses that can be applied to nearly every main character in the history of storytelling. That's why when the main character or hero (or falls) dies in a story it comes off as a surprise and is met with a varying range of responses.
It's not as if she made zero mistakes in the movie either. As I've said a number of times before, she's basically representation of Anakin before his fall while Kylo Ren is Anakin after he fell but he's not quite Vader yet. The Force was never meant to be something that needed a lot of training to access either as shown repeatedly in the past how easily it can come to those who are naturally gifted. Rey's mind isn't clouded by doubt or cynicism as Luke's was, she's as much of a fangirl of the stories of the rebellion and its heroes (including Luke) as Ren is a fanboy of Darth Vader. Ren is a Padawan who fancies himself a Knight, it's clear he didn't receive much training from Luke or in his arrogance didn't listen to whatever Luke was trying to teach him. He's the grandson of the most powerful Jedi in the Order's history (or well potential) who has bought into his own hype when he's not even at Padawan Ben Kenobi's.
I still see way too many people discounting just how strong Kylo Ren's handicap was when facing Finn and then Rey even though the movie made it a point to repeatedly show just how powerful Chewbacca's bowcaster is and Kylo Ren's internal struggle which clearly left him completely unfocused and what he did not being the remedy he thought it'd be. Rey believed, focused and did a couple of the most basic of Jedi abilities, she let the Force in and submitted to its will, it wasn't so much Rey that beat Kylo Ren as it was the Force.
We're in act one of a three act story as nice as it would've been to have a nice standalone movie there's really no reason to when you know you have two more that are coming. On top of that I'm sure that early on in the second movie we're going to learn Rey was such a natural at it because of who she is or was.
Subpar Spatula
Banned
How can you read someone's post when you only quote the first 10 words?
Neo went from "help help help, I can't do it" to Jesus powers and stopping the most powerful agent easily, because "he's starting to believe".
Literally "I can't" to "I believe" in a single scene. But Neo was the greatest, a hero, inspired a (terrible) trend of black trench coats, etc.
Rey also does partially have that. She does something and Snoke immediately is all "HEY THERE'S A NEW JEDI WE CAN'T HAVE THAT GET IT AND KILL IT".
It is convenient, because that's what the movie is about. Veelk literally spelled that point out in his analysis of why it isn't unbelievable, about the importance of Rey being strong with the Force and how the Force actually works.
But, whatever. You have your opinions to hold on to, they're more important.
I know that was meant to be rhetorical, but seriously, how DO you explain subtext? By definition, it's the content that is not explicit, and therefore has room to doubt. But well done subtext is when something is obviously about something that the film never directly talks about about. Which I consider some parts of TFA unleashed to be, to it's credit, but how the hell are you supposed to convince someone of that when by definition you only have inferential proof?
If you figure that out, let me know, it'll make a lot of discussions easier.
What is this shit? Frog-fu isn't the only one with these opinions. That's how they work. How are you any less "stubborn"?
We are in a world with rifles and tanks and we still train our soldiers to use hand to hand combat and bayonets. You train them as well as you possibly can for possible scenarios not just likely scenerios. Stormtroopers are still ground troops after all.
That's definitely NOT what happened with Neo. He started to believe and have powers before the final scene. How can you even say that if you've ever seen that movie?!
We shouldn't be bringing in other movies anyway.
Do swords even exist in the SW universe outside of lightsabers?
Snoke, Kylo and Maz all talk about her relationship with the force. The former two show great interest in her because she's so strong with it. Maz esstentially said that Rey was running from her destiny and she knew it.
She shows resistance to force persuasion which even someone as strong-minded as Po can't do.
The lightsaber calls to her when its previous two owners were some of the most powerful jedi in the galaxy. She has force visions like Luke had while training with Yoda.
The second half of the movie sets it up.
plasmawave
Banned
Now you're just making shit up lol
Morpheous was looking for Neo for a long ass time because he believed he was the chosen one. It was made clear from the get go.
uh, no it really doesn't. Ren captured her because of her memory of the map.
Poor arguments are being dismantled.
They do, yeah
It isn't his opinion, it's how he's arguing it. Any evidence you present him, he outright dismisses because it's in his eyes speculation or even if he does, it's not enough for him to overpower Rey by his seemingly arbitrary standards. It's the fact that he is utterly convinced in the validity of his interpretation that he leaves no room for actual conversation. There is no piece of the movie you can give him that he won't wave away. Feel free to have the opinion that Rey's fight with Ren was badly depicted for one reason or another, but to be a productive member of discussion, you have to admit that your interpretation might be faulty or atleast that other's contrary views might be valid. He isn't, because according to him, he 'paid attention to the movie' and there's that's where the debate ends with him.
Whatever the opinion he's behind, I find the rhetoric he employs distasteful and rude.
😂😂
There's a ton of projection and part-time psychology there.
I did find it funny how a scavanger like Rey was somehow this expert pilot, skilled mechanic, competent marksman, and even suddenly good enough with a lightsaber to not only hold her own against a trained Jedi/Sith but defeat him. But sure, TFA is sci-fi fantasy, so it all just works....and having The Force on her side helps.
Some of it was just eye roll-inducing, but in the end I didn't care. The movie rocked.
People insert themselves into stories where their parents are dead?
Where and when? I don't think I've ever seen one.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
All the time.
Fantasy and wish-fulfillment can sometimes go interesting places.
A lot of fantasy aimed at children works specifically because it removes parents.
ZehDon
Member
I don't agree with this. In my post, I mentioned that the film forces the audience to compare Vader and Ren, and assume a comparable level of power and danger, even if incorrectly so. This establishes Ren as the primary villain, like Vader was. I made this comment in response to your statement that Ren was not a Sith. The direct comparison, combined with the visual story telling and narrative, infers that Ren is very much a Sith. Being a Sith required training. As I keep mentioning, Ren is clearly young and, initially, conflicted, however he's obviously well trained in the use of the force and a light sabre. The comparison with Vader establishes all of this, and everything we see and are told reinforces this fact. The comparison isn't "favourable", it simply informs the audience's knowledge of the character, and explains his abilities, position and motivations. Thus, the audience knows Ren is a Sith, he can wield the force, he is skilled with a light sabre, he is dangerous, and he seeks more power.
Rey's inexplicable mastery of the force has little to do with this in and of itself, however it negatively impacts Ren because of the way it undermines what's come before. An entirely untrained force-sensitive individual defeating a Sith (and everything being a Sith infers, like training and passion) makes no sense in context of the Star Wars cannon. Ren being "weaker" as per your claims, as way of explaining Rey's success in battle against him, isn't a good thing, because in doing so you have to weaken every other force user in order to make that justification. In order to explain Rey's powers, there are three possibilities: Yoda, Kenobi, Anakin, Luke, The Emperor, etc., are a bunch of force-incompetent nimrods, or the film handled Rey's force sensitivity poorly.
Mike Works
Member
Here's the problem with the movie and what I think will probably happen:
I think it's going to be revealed that Rey had been trained as a child with Luke and other force-gifted kids before Ben Solo (Kylo Ren) and the CG Orc from the Hobbit killed everyone (except for Rey). Rey is a descendant of Skywalker and/or Kenobi blood. So her quickly discovering these powers and abilities within herself via the force makes total sense, since they're abilities she had already trained and used as a child... just abilities that were blocked away until the events of The Force Awakens. That's the general theory that a lot of people seem to be going with, and it makes sense.
Here's the problem with how they wrote The Force Awakens... that plot line, which will likely be revealed in Episode 8 (if it is legit), totally legitimizes Rey's actions in Episode 7. However, that movie ain't coming out for at least a year and a half. So right now, all we have to go on is what we have to go on.
And that's not good structural writing. This movie needed to be self contained, much in the way that Episode 4: A New Hope was. In Episode 4, the evil empire's death star is defeated, the planet is saved, and the heroes are given medals. However, neither Darth Vader nor The Emporer are apprehended/killed. Further to that, Obi Wan Kenobi is killed. And the empire, likely, lives on. In terms of the protagonist, Luke starts off as a farm boy, struggles with and is trained in the force, and ultimately uses it to blow up the death star. His training isn't complete, Obi Wan's death isn't avenged, but he's a hero.
Episode 7 mirrors this structure in many ways... The evil first order's death star is defeated, planets are saved... there's no medal scene, but that's fine. And like Episode 4, neither Kylo Ren nor Ginger Hitler nor bad CG Voldemort are apprehended/killed. Further to that, Han Solo is killed. And the first order, or at least some form of danger, lives on. That's all kosher. However, Episode 7 decided to go with dual protagonists, and here's where the ball gets fumbled a bit.
Finn's arch is great... or at least the start of it. He begins as a storm trooper trained as a child to kill... and almost immediately rejects it. He rejects the First Order, saves Poe (for selfish reasons), masquerades as a rebel (for selfish reasons), and instead of running away from the first order, eventually stands up to fight it for the good of the galaxy (and, more importantly, his new friends). I like Finn's arch, and I'm looking forward to him evolving (I'm assuming as a fighter pilot/antagonist to Ginger Hitler).
Here's the problem with Rey. With what we know right now (Episode 1 - Episode 7), Rey doesn't have any jedi training. She's a mechanic and scavenger (and is good with a staff), but I don't know if she's even flown a spaceship before Episode 7. She's never held a lightsaber (an off-hand complaint: Finn was a little too good with the lightsaber in his fight with Kylo Ren, but it wouldn't have been a great fight if it was over in five seconds). So yes, Rey has had to struggle to survive on Jakku, and she does have a myriad of skills borne from that life, but... she ain't no jedi.
More importantly, she knows next to nothing about the jedi. About the force. About any of it. The jedi and Luke Skywalker are seemingly myths and legends in her world. Sure, she may have believed they were real by choice, but in terms of knowing the ins and outs of the force... that seems pretty dubious. And here's where the film and its writing falters:
She doesn't learn any of it. It just happens because it needs to happen for her to survive. For the main characters to not die. For the movie to get to the next scene.
Rey hops in the Millenium Falcon and suddenly she's an amazing ace pilot. She exclaims that she doesn't know how she's doing it. More importantly: Rey has not met Han Solo at this point, has not been told that the force and the jedi are real. How is she doing it? I dunno, luck? Inherent skill? It's a kids movie? Whatever, it's fun, and if it was the only instance of this happening no one would think twice about it.
But it happens time and time again. Rey discovers the ability to mind-control a storm trooper. Not only has she never tried to do that before, I don't think anyone's ever told her about that ability. Yet she magically knows how to do it. Rey is also great with a blaster (though so is every good guy, let's be honest), she knows how to force-pull a lightsaber (again, how??) (not to mention her force pull is stronger than Kylo Ren, a Skywalker who's been trained in the arts of the force for years), and she defeats Kylo Ren in one-on-one lightsaber combat. Is Kylo Ren weakened and not in a solid emotional state? Yes. But even so... you gotta imagine he could beat someone who's never held a lightsaber or even used a sword before, force strength be damned.
It wasn't the same for Luke. Did Luke magically know about the jedi mind trick? No. He witnessed Obi Wan do it to a stormtrooper in the first film. Did he magically know how to force pull a lightsaber? No, he'd been practicing and training in using the force beforehand (though I'm not sure how much before he finally did it in that ice cave). Was he magically great at using a lightsaber? No, he was trained by Obi Wan how to use it, and even then he didn't fight Darth Vader in Episode 4... and when he did fight Darth Vader in Episode 5, he put up a fight but eventually lost, got his hand chopped off, and seemingly fell to his death.
That's the rub. All of these force abilities seem to magically come to Rey. It's not just that she doesn't earn them... it's that she doesn't learn them. At least as far as we know.
So, let's say Episode 8 comes out and we discover that Rey was trained by Luke as a child, and the "Awakening" in Episode 7 were her innate powers and training coming to life as the force and the jedi were validated throughout her journey. Does that make sense? Yes! It explains everything that happens in Episode 7! When we're all marathoning Episodes 7 - 9 in a decade, these problems with Rey in Episode 7 won't exist.
But they do exist right now, in Episode 7, as a standalone movie.
You don't have to answer everything in a movie, especially if you know a direct sequel is hitting in less than two years. Especially if you know it'll be part of a trilogy. You need to withhold certain things.
But I don't think they withheld Rey's training properly (if she was indeed trained by the jedi as a child). It's not satisfactory at all because while she is struggling in these fights, she's simply not earning these victories. She's doing amazing things, but there's no sensical explanation how, even when you factor in the magical force. Rey definitely changes throughout the film, she has a character arch, but we don't really know how or why. We just watch her do it.
And again, this is largely built on my guess that Rey was trained in the force as a child. If she wasn't... that's not good. Perhaps Luke was guiding her throughout Episode 7, but that wouldn't really fit in terms of narrative awareness since we, the viewer, are privy to the minds of our jedi protagonists (we see Rey's vision, we hear and see Obi Wan's ghost speak to Luke, etc).
I don't give a shit about Mary Sue labels or anything like that. And despite this rant, I really like Rey and Finn's characters. I think they're fantastic protagonists (and great actors). It's just that Rey's internal journey in Episode 7 was a big narrative misstep. It didn't kill the movie at all, but it did hinder it.
The annoying thing is I think there was a very easy and short way to fix it, but this post feels long enough as it is. I'll post my rewrite suggestion if people are interested.
I think it's going to be revealed that Rey had been trained as a child with Luke and other force-gifted kids before Ben Solo (Kylo Ren) and the CG Orc from the Hobbit killed everyone (except for Rey). Rey is a descendant of Skywalker and/or Kenobi blood. So her quickly discovering these powers and abilities within herself via the force makes total sense, since they're abilities she had already trained and used as a child... just abilities that were blocked away until the events of The Force Awakens. That's the general theory that a lot of people seem to be going with, and it makes sense.
Here's the problem with how they wrote The Force Awakens... that plot line, which will likely be revealed in Episode 8 (if it is legit), totally legitimizes Rey's actions in Episode 7. However, that movie ain't coming out for at least a year and a half. So right now, all we have to go on is what we have to go on.
And that's not good structural writing. This movie needed to be self contained, much in the way that Episode 4: A New Hope was. In Episode 4, the evil empire's death star is defeated, the planet is saved, and the heroes are given medals. However, neither Darth Vader nor The Emporer are apprehended/killed. Further to that, Obi Wan Kenobi is killed. And the empire, likely, lives on. In terms of the protagonist, Luke starts off as a farm boy, struggles with and is trained in the force, and ultimately uses it to blow up the death star. His training isn't complete, Obi Wan's death isn't avenged, but he's a hero.
Episode 7 mirrors this structure in many ways... The evil first order's death star is defeated, planets are saved... there's no medal scene, but that's fine. And like Episode 4, neither Kylo Ren nor Ginger Hitler nor bad CG Voldemort are apprehended/killed. Further to that, Han Solo is killed. And the first order, or at least some form of danger, lives on. That's all kosher. However, Episode 7 decided to go with dual protagonists, and here's where the ball gets fumbled a bit.
Finn's arch is great... or at least the start of it. He begins as a storm trooper trained as a child to kill... and almost immediately rejects it. He rejects the First Order, saves Poe (for selfish reasons), masquerades as a rebel (for selfish reasons), and instead of running away from the first order, eventually stands up to fight it for the good of the galaxy (and, more importantly, his new friends). I like Finn's arch, and I'm looking forward to him evolving (I'm assuming as a fighter pilot/antagonist to Ginger Hitler).
Here's the problem with Rey. With what we know right now (Episode 1 - Episode 7), Rey doesn't have any jedi training. She's a mechanic and scavenger (and is good with a staff), but I don't know if she's even flown a spaceship before Episode 7. She's never held a lightsaber (an off-hand complaint: Finn was a little too good with the lightsaber in his fight with Kylo Ren, but it wouldn't have been a great fight if it was over in five seconds). So yes, Rey has had to struggle to survive on Jakku, and she does have a myriad of skills borne from that life, but... she ain't no jedi.
More importantly, she knows next to nothing about the jedi. About the force. About any of it. The jedi and Luke Skywalker are seemingly myths and legends in her world. Sure, she may have believed they were real by choice, but in terms of knowing the ins and outs of the force... that seems pretty dubious. And here's where the film and its writing falters:
She doesn't learn any of it. It just happens because it needs to happen for her to survive. For the main characters to not die. For the movie to get to the next scene.
Rey hops in the Millenium Falcon and suddenly she's an amazing ace pilot. She exclaims that she doesn't know how she's doing it. More importantly: Rey has not met Han Solo at this point, has not been told that the force and the jedi are real. How is she doing it? I dunno, luck? Inherent skill? It's a kids movie? Whatever, it's fun, and if it was the only instance of this happening no one would think twice about it.
But it happens time and time again. Rey discovers the ability to mind-control a storm trooper. Not only has she never tried to do that before, I don't think anyone's ever told her about that ability. Yet she magically knows how to do it. Rey is also great with a blaster (though so is every good guy, let's be honest), she knows how to force-pull a lightsaber (again, how??) (not to mention her force pull is stronger than Kylo Ren, a Skywalker who's been trained in the arts of the force for years), and she defeats Kylo Ren in one-on-one lightsaber combat. Is Kylo Ren weakened and not in a solid emotional state? Yes. But even so... you gotta imagine he could beat someone who's never held a lightsaber or even used a sword before, force strength be damned.
It wasn't the same for Luke. Did Luke magically know about the jedi mind trick? No. He witnessed Obi Wan do it to a stormtrooper in the first film. Did he magically know how to force pull a lightsaber? No, he'd been practicing and training in using the force beforehand (though I'm not sure how much before he finally did it in that ice cave). Was he magically great at using a lightsaber? No, he was trained by Obi Wan how to use it, and even then he didn't fight Darth Vader in Episode 4... and when he did fight Darth Vader in Episode 5, he put up a fight but eventually lost, got his hand chopped off, and seemingly fell to his death.
That's the rub. All of these force abilities seem to magically come to Rey. It's not just that she doesn't earn them... it's that she doesn't learn them. At least as far as we know.
So, let's say Episode 8 comes out and we discover that Rey was trained by Luke as a child, and the "Awakening" in Episode 7 were her innate powers and training coming to life as the force and the jedi were validated throughout her journey. Does that make sense? Yes! It explains everything that happens in Episode 7! When we're all marathoning Episodes 7 - 9 in a decade, these problems with Rey in Episode 7 won't exist.
But they do exist right now, in Episode 7, as a standalone movie.
You don't have to answer everything in a movie, especially if you know a direct sequel is hitting in less than two years. Especially if you know it'll be part of a trilogy. You need to withhold certain things.
But I don't think they withheld Rey's training properly (if she was indeed trained by the jedi as a child). It's not satisfactory at all because while she is struggling in these fights, she's simply not earning these victories. She's doing amazing things, but there's no sensical explanation how, even when you factor in the magical force. Rey definitely changes throughout the film, she has a character arch, but we don't really know how or why. We just watch her do it.
And again, this is largely built on my guess that Rey was trained in the force as a child. If she wasn't... that's not good. Perhaps Luke was guiding her throughout Episode 7, but that wouldn't really fit in terms of narrative awareness since we, the viewer, are privy to the minds of our jedi protagonists (we see Rey's vision, we hear and see Obi Wan's ghost speak to Luke, etc).
I don't give a shit about Mary Sue labels or anything like that. And despite this rant, I really like Rey and Finn's characters. I think they're fantastic protagonists (and great actors). It's just that Rey's internal journey in Episode 7 was a big narrative misstep. It didn't kill the movie at all, but it did hinder it.
The annoying thing is I think there was a very easy and short way to fix it, but this post feels long enough as it is. I'll post my rewrite suggestion if people are interested.
Yeah I certainly haven't seen one that I can recall. And definitely not prevalent enough to warrant training everyone in sword combat.
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
It really does. All of that stuff happened in the fill and are set ups for the final confrontation where Rey, who initially refused, grabs the lightsaber that calls out to her, (more specifically the crystal).
NOt to mention the Stormtroopers are trained in Melee combat. They are after Luke whom they know is a Jedi. It would make sense for them to be somewhat trained in melee combat.
1) She does have a fault, a fault that actually gets herself captured by Ren (this is also something ignored by much of the "Mary Sue" crowd, including the asinine Max Landis) Her fear of leaving Jakku was a big weakness, running away for a moment from her destiny. That got her captured by Ren and is one of the pivotal parts of the movie. So no, she isn't exactly "perfect."
2) But yes, she has less faults than Ren. So what? She's a hero, and while she certainly doesn't seem perfect to me, apparently she's too perfect for some? This, despite the fact that she is still very much a mystery obviously kept for the rest of the trilogy.
3) nobody is saying Rey can suddenly beat every single Jedi and Sith and canon. She beat Ren after Ren was wounded, emotionally in turmoil and after Ren fought Finn. THEN she remember what Maz said about "letting the Force in", letting it flow through you, because the Force, more than using it, uses YOU, and even partially controls your movements. This is something repeated by both Obi-Wan and Yoda in the original trilogy.
Veelk explains all this much better than I can right now, and yet it seems very few people are actually reading it. I can understand, it's long, but at least accept that instead of pretending you read it all.
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
Specifically yes. Especially teenagers who have an ingrained contempt or disinterest in their parents. It's why parents are such a rare thing in anime. It's the oldest trick in the book in terms of self insertion from the audience.
Why? Because they are going to fight Luke hand to hand? They are gonna shoot his ass.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
Okay, but that's what you're doing. You just explained again how it's a positive comparison while trying to convince me that it isn't.
He's not as strong as Darth Vader. Not even close. He's not a sith. Not only do we see this in his actions throughout the film, Rey literally speaks those lines to him after pulling them out of his own head.
Ugh. Neo was "the one", everyone else believes it, he doesn't. He believes a bit, holds Smith off and jets. At the end, he's running from the agents, yelling "help help help" into a phone and gets surprised and shot to death. Then gains Jesus powers, believes that he is actually the one, and destroys Agent Smith.
But we shouldn't be using other films. I just am because Matrix was brought up.
Rey is just going through a hero journey, like any other main character in a film. But because she's a ~girl, who probably has cooties omg~, it's really bothering some dudes so they're trying to bring her down. Whatever floats your boat and makes you feel superior to women, boys.
It seriously bothers me and I'm getting really annoyed so I'm going to stop talking about it. Keep pushing women out of your franchises, boys and then being shocked when women don't watch them. :/
That's all fine but a it's silly to have a world where we summarize both Batman and Wesley Crusher with the same label. I think the label is basically useless for a bunch of reasons but even if I was going to play along, shouldn't the fact that we could fit it on both these characters show us that it's completely vapid?
This is why I'm curious to see what they're doing with him going forward. The message seems pretty clear so where do they take this next?
They have lightsaber resistant weapons in case they have to fight him would be the likely reason. They know that users of the force can just stop or deflect blaster fire so they might need another option, especially in confied areas where something like a grenade or missle couldn't be used.Why? Because they are going to fight Luke hand to hand? They are gonna shoot his ass.
Then that makes it a marketing ploy and not a author's self-fantasy ploy? Is Mary Sue indistinguishable from pandering?
This is exactly my thoughts too. I loved the movie, but if there's one problem, it's precisely this. The modern shared-universe model is really killing the individual movies, and JJ Abrams has openly said that this is what happened with Force Awakens. He literally withheld stuff from TFA thinking it might work better for VIII or IX. And that could've been true for many plot points removed from the movie (like Maz' whereabouts and Rey's parentage), but the main flaw the movie has is this.
I'll add that I'm not bothered by most of Rey's abilities, but I can see how it alienates some fans.
Nope, that's Clone Wars which is part of the current canon even after the wipe. Whether force users used them or not is immaterial because it was asked if swords existed in the SW universe which they do, there's no reason to believe a Stormtrooper wouldn't train with and against bladed weapons to some extent. We also see halberd style weapons and axes used in ROTJ and staves make appearances so that training would be part of the regimen of highly trained soldiers.
plasmawave
Banned
Was Rey set up to be as some kinda force jesus from the start? No.
Neither in the rest of the movie.
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
It's both depending on the person writing the story. It becomes pandering when it's characters like Bella Swan where quite literally every single thing revolves around her, she has very little character and her special talents are completely generic non-descript things and/or unexplained completely throughout the whole series while hot men fight over her.
It's an embarrassment of riches that completely negates any point to the contrary.
ElBoxyBrown
Banned
My only complaint with Rey is how she quickly learned the Jedi Mind Trick. Isn't that a power you have to discover and study once you mastered the Force?
I think everyone knew Ren's whole deal in TFA. I don't think most people saw him as what you thought. He was cut clear a mentally unstable kid. Even when he took his mask off his whole face just screamed "incompetence."
If that's all you have to offer, maybe you should take a step back and ask yourself if you're perhaps projecting straw men onto valid arguments. Cooties?
As I said before, Rey is my favorite thing about TFA. She was also done a great diservice by poor writing.
The term 'wish fulfillment' is another term I don't really like. Initially, I was wholly against it as a concept. Because every character, even hard blank characters like Bella, have their own personalities that I can't honestly say that I am a part of. Or otherwise, their lack of personality sometimes creates a dissonance where I would do one thing that the character isn't doing.
There was never a time where I looked at any character in fiction and honestly said "yeah, that's totally me." Even when I was a kid and played at being batman, I was aware of the differences. Because of this, I dismissed the concept of wishfulfillment/escapism in fiction because anyone who claimed they saw themselves wholly in a character were simply not seeing the whole character. Escapism is a thing because you can use PART of a character to see a little of yourself in them. Except this works to both good and bad ways. I see myself both in Finn and Rey and Kylo Ren all. Which makes it empathy rather than identification.
But at the same time, there are different degrees of empathy/escapism. Which is why it's important to hve diverse representation, as Rey is showing with little girls who can enact their fantasies of being badass jedi women, something they could do only in smaller degrees in male Jedi.
So, to respond to your point, I don't think escapism/wishfulfillment/whatever can be the ONLY thing to define a character, but it's definitely a thing and can be done in various degrees. It doesn't make the character vapid or shallow, but there is something to it.
Cindi Mayweather
Member
Star Wars villains are incredibly inept in A New Hope. They don't become a force worth reckoning with until ESB. Even then, it's hard to consider an enemy that blows up multiple planets in one shots as "inept."
Who in this thread has said anything remotely close to that?
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