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[commish]

Nope, that's Clone Wars which is part of the current canon even after the wipe. Whether force users used them or not is immaterial because it was asked if swords existed in the SW universe which they do, there's no reason to believe a Stormtrooper wouldn't train with and against bladed weapons to some extent.

Well we can agree to disagree because I honestly don't remember sword users like this during the clone wars, but then again, I probably wouldn't have even taken note of them as unusual since there were jedi all over the place with swords. I haven't even SEEN a storm trooper carry a sword, let alone get training in them, and especially not Finn who was a stormtrooper who worked in sanitation . The closest we have was that one storm trooper with the baton weapon thingy who fought Finn, and that seemed to have been invented solely for that fight because we didn't see those weapons before or after.

 

[Vice]

My only complaint with Rey is how she quickly discovered the Jedi Mind Trick. Isn't that a power you have to discover not know instantly?

I think everyone knew Ren's whole deal in TFA. I don't think most people saw him as what you thought. He was cut clear a mentally unstable kid. Even when he took his mask off his whole face just screamed "incompetence."

She saw the mind trick. Kylo Ren performed it on her before trying to reading her mind.

 

[excelsiorlef]

I'm just going to reiterate again that another factor in the fight was that Rey had by far the better lightsaber to boot.

I'm convinced Ren's is basically a recycled POS and those vents are the only thing keeping it from exploding. Even if I'm wrong there's no doubt that Anakin/Luke's old sabre is the more powerful one.

 

[ElBoxyBrown]

She saw the mind trick. Kylo Ren performed it on her before trying to reading her mind.

Did he? I might have missed it but I thought he was just trying to pull info out of her. I didn't see any Jedi Mind Trick. I don't think a Sith can use JMT.

 

[commish]

Who in this thread has said anything remotely close to that?

I really hate how this keeps being brought up, and it is always seemingly brought up by people purporting to be defending Rey. I don't think anyone here is hating on Rey because she's a girl at all. I said "FUCKING BULLSHIT" when Anakin blew up a space station when he was 3 years old in TPM

 

[ghst]

Rey is just going through a hero journey, like any other main character in a film. But because she's a ~girl, who probably has cooties omg~, it's really bothering some dudes so they're trying to bring her down. Whatever floats your boat and makes you feel superior to women, boys.

the widespread assumption that only men can have a problem with this character is probably the most sexist thing to come out of the whole thread.

 

[Aselith]

Well we can agree to disagree because I honestly don't remember sword users like this during the clone wars, but then again, I probably wouldn't have even taken note of them as unusual since there were jedi all over the place with swords. I haven't even SEEN a storm trooper carry a sword, let alone get training in them, and especially not Finn who was a stormtrooper who worked in sanitation . The closest we have was that one storm trooper with the baton weapon thingy who fought Finn, and that seemed to have been invented solely for that fight because we didn't see those weapons before or after.

Feel free to confirm, we don't have to disagree when you can look it up. That's Talia

 

[Leeness]

Who in this thread has said anything remotely close to that?

If that's all you have to offer, maybe you should take a step back and ask yourself if you're perhaps projecting straw men onto valid arguments. Cooties?

As I said before, Rey is my favorite thing about TFA. She was also done a great diservice by poor writing.

I was going to take that comment back, I went overboard in my upset, I'm sorry (though I wouldn't be shocked to see something to that effect on Reddit). It just really upsets me that Rey does nothing out of the ordinary for a hero journey character and is getting shit for it. It shouldn't though...pretty par for the course for any women characters recently.

The Star Wars fandom is not particularly welcoming to women though.

the widespread assumption that only men can have a problem with this character is probably the most sexist thing to come out of the whole thread.

Haha sure. If that makes you feel better.

Women can think Rey sucks too...we're not a hive mind. But since the Star Wars fandom is mostly men...it's mostly men talking about it.

Young girls love her though, which makes me very happy and therefore Rey serves her purpose so...whatever.

 

[Vice]

Did he? I might have missed it but I thought he was just trying to pull info out of her. I didn't see any Jedi Mind Trick. I don't think a Sith can use JMT.

He tried to persuade her with a hand gesture at first. Then he tried the mind reading.

I think using the force to persuade is a universal ability. Like pulling or pushing stuff. But, that might have changed after all the EU stuff got deleted.

 

[Brakke]

It's both depending on the person writing the story. It becomes pandering when it's characters like Bella Swan where quite literally every single thing revolves around her, she has very little character and her special talents are completely generic non-descript things and/or unexplained completely throughout the whole series while hot men fight over her.

Sure I agree. I guess I'm just saying the "well XYZ Male Character is a Mary Sue and nobody ever says so" argument, especially to imply misogyny or fragile masculinity or whatever, doesn't hold. Nobody's going to call Batman a Mary Sue because they already have a term for him: Batman. Lots of lame anime characters are easily dismissed as "just another Boy of Destiny", we don't need "Mary Sue" to help us understand another boring coming-of-age cipher.

 

[commish]

Feel free to confirm, we don't have to disagree when you can look it up. That's Talia

What's funny is that I play with sword users every day in my SW game on my phone Hell, I think some nightsisters even use bow and arrows sometimes. So, fair enough, you are right. I will still maintain that they were not used by the rank and file soldier

 

[Cindi Mayweather]

I still don't understand the complaint that she's "too perfect". When she got captured, struggled using the blaster, and has a fear of facing new challenges or the unknown (wanting to go back to Jakku, refusing to take Luke's lightsaber).

 

[Bobby Roberts]

the widespread assumption that only men can have a problem with this character

It seems to be largely men, though. But I know I haven't said it's all men, or even all people with a negative opinion of the character's arc and progression through the movie.

Is this misconception that people are saying it's only men, and all the complaints fall into the exact same bucket what led you to make that statement a few pages back about the argument failing because of the fact you could probably find a woman who thinks the same thing?

falls down when you know girls who also somehow believe she's a badly written character too.

but them i'm sure bobby has a paragraph to explain that in his codex astartes of social lore.

Because...

and I think that gets at the core of why some people are out of hand rejecting...

So that's unpleasant to a lot of people...T

What you're seeing are people...

For a lot of people,

Looks like I'm actually being pretty careful to allow for the fact women could also be buying into the same false notions/narratives that some men are.

 

[opoth]

I was going to take that comment back, I went overboard in my upset, I'm sorry (though I wouldn't be shocked to see something to that effect on Reddit). It just really upsets me that Rey does nothing out of the ordinary for a hero journey character and is getting shit for it. It shouldn't though...pretty par for the course for any women characters recently.

The Star Wars fandom is not particularly welcoming to women though.

Star Wars fandom is a big tent with a lot of diversity, and unfortunately that means it has a vocal minority of MRAs and GG types that are going to wave the Mary Sue flag even if they don't know what it means, much to the embarrassment of the more level headed majority (at least this is what I tell myself)

It probably doesn't help that this type of person likely shares certain personality traits with the new villain of the piece, who is somewhat viewed as an object of pity, so I'm sure there's a subconscious bit at work there for some.

 

[Crossing Eden]

Sure I agree. I guess I'm just saying the "well XYZ Male Character is a Mary Sue and nobody ever says so" argument, especially to imply misogyny or fragile masculinity or whatever, doesn't hold. Nobody's going to call Batman a Mary Sue because they already have a term for him: Batman. Lots of lame anime characters are easily dismissed as "just another Boy of Destiny", we don't need "Mary Sue" to help us understand another boring coming-of-age cipher.

But she's quite compelling, on the sexism accusations I suppose it doesn't help that the movie was marketed as if Finn would be the new Luke. There is some backlash tho because she's a woman, even subtly due to the sheer amount of nitpicking. Not necessarily in this thread however. I honestly wonder if the complaints about the lightsaber fight would be anywhere near as much if Finn beat Kylo and saved Rey like audiences are accustomed too, because he hadn't shown to be in tune with the force at all in the movie.

 

[Aselith]

What's funny is that I play with sword users every day in my SW game on my phone Hell, I think some nightsisters even use bow and arrows sometimes. So, fair enough, you are right. I will still maintain that they were not used by the rank and file soldier

Yeah, totally, I didn't say that, I just said I believe it's entirely possible that they get some weapon training due to melee weapons being fairly common in the Star Wars universe...not swords specifically but they are around enough that it's possible that the training is part of their regimen. Our troops still get bayonet training despite it not being in common use.

 

[Veelk]

Star Wars fandom is a big tent with a lot of diversity, and unfortunately that means it has a vocal minority of MRAs and GG types that are going to wave the Mary Sue flag even if they don't know what it means, much to the embarrassment of the more level headed majority (at least this is what I tell myself)

It probably doesn't help that this type of person likely shares certain personality traits with the new villain of the piece, who is somewhat viewed as an object of pity, so I'm sure there's a subconscious bit at work there for some.

There's a good quote from twitter about this from Scott Lynch. He's talking about other stuff, but fits in this as well.

"Why do nutcase racist/nationalist bigots love STAR WARS, anyway? Nearly all the heroes are multilingual xenophiles who travel all the time."

 

[Arrowgigantic]

Yoda never trained Luke with the lightsaber, and Obi-Wan's training was just to tell him he has to feel the force and Luke was all set with that. Luke ends up losing against Vader, but he didn't get squashed. Plus Rey and Finn were both already experienced melee figthers. If Rey was feeling the force, why wouldn't she be able to saber fight? Finn too.

 

[Black-Wind]

I still don't understand the complaint that she's "too perfect". When she got captured, struggled using the blaster, and has a fear of facing new challenges or the unknown (wanting to go back to Jakku, refusing to take Luke's lightsaber).

She wanted to go back to Jakku because she was waiting for someone.

For some reason Han not out right inviting her to chill with him made her more willing to wait for that other person.

And I wouldn't want to touch that damn thing either if it gave me the hebegebees like that.

 

[ZehDon]

Okay, but that's what you're doing.

I don't really appreciate your dismals, given you're not explaining your position at all and are literally ignoring my posts, focusing on aspects that don't address my actual complaint: Rey's inexplicable force mastery.

He's not as strong as Darth Vader. Not even close. He's not a sith. Not only do we see this in his actions throughout the film, Rey literally speaks those lines to him after pulling them out of his own head.

I never said Ren was as powerful as Vader. I actually explained that he wasn't, and that I liked this aspect of the character. I feel that you're ignoring me at this point. I explained why the audience is expected to believe Ren is a Sith, and you've offered zero evidence to contrary. Simply put: being a Sith requires training in the ways of the force and light sabre, this undermines the credibility of Rey defeating Ren. If you disagree, please explain why.

... Her fear of leaving Jakku was a big weakness, running away for a moment from her destiny.

She wasn't afraid of leaving Jakku, as we see in her excitement at seeing the forest planet for the first time. Rey was afraid of missing her family, who she expected to return to collect her. A trusting, almost noble, position to take, given the hardships we see her endure on Jakku. Loyalty and trust are not faults. In contrast, Luke rejected leaving Tatooine because Owen had drilled it into him that he was a farmer. It wasn't until Owen and his Aunt were killed that he decided to follow Kenobi.

2) But yes, she has less faults than Ren. So what? She's a hero, and while she certainly doesn't seem perfect to me, apparently she's too perfect for some? This, despite the fact that she is still very much a mystery obviously kept for the rest of the trilogy...

I won't speak for the "Mary Sue" crowd you refer to, but the issue for me with Rey having no faults is that this means she doesn't have to grow or learn. If Rey never fails, and thus is perfect, what character does she have? The closest we see her failing is having to try twice to mind control another person. Of course, as you mention, she is a hero character, however Finn - the the other hero character - has clearly defined faults, and has real development. I like Rey, I mention before I think she's kick ass, I just wish she was presented better. This criticism is smaller than my criticism of her mastery of the force, to be fair.

3) nobody is saying Rey can suddenly beat every single Jedi and Sith and canon. She beat Ren after Ren was wounded, emotionally in turmoil and after Ren fought Finn. THEN she remember what Maz said about "letting the Force in", letting it flow through you, because the Force, more than using it, uses YOU, and even partially controls your movements. This is something repeated by both Obi-Wan and Yoda in the original trilogy...

The issue isn't Rey using the force - nor even that she beat Ren, at least inherently - it's the lack of time, effort and training we see. The simple question is: how can Rey perform a Jedi mind trick, perform telekinesis, and beat down a trained Sith with zero training in either the ways of the force, or a light sabre? The literally decades of training we see Anakin Skywalker undertake are almost meaningless in comparison if all it takes to achieve Rey's level of force mastery is some words of encouragement from a non-force user. This is the issue.

 

[FStubbs]

I always took a Mary Sue to be a character like Wesley Crusher.

Is Rey like Wesley Crusher?

Wesley Crusher isn't a Mary Sue. He's The Wesley.

 

[Veelk]

Yoda never trained Luke with the lightsaber, and Obi-Wan's training was just to tell him he has to feel the force and Luke was all set with that. Luke ends up losing against Vader, but he didn't get squashed. Plus Rey and Finn were both already experienced melee figthers. If Rey was feeling the force, why wouldn't she be able to saber fight? Finn too.

Holy shit, how did I forget about this.

Such a big deal is made over the improvement of Luke's light saber skills in ESB. Yet Yoda never trained him the lightsaber. His training was all about using the force, which Luke actually didn't make much use of in the fight.

So Luke is essentially untrained in lightsaber combat itself. Just the force, which has to be the source of his improvement in his fight. So that's all the more proof that it's the force Rey needs to be good with (which she is more naturally able to be attuned in than Luke), and it lends even more credence to how she was able to pull off her fight with Ren once she became one with it.

 

[SoundPulse]

I wouldn't exactly say that she's a mary sue, but I do think she needed a bit more development for her abilities. A mentor, part of the whole monomyth, might have helped her force powers not feel quite so sudden. Obi-Wan's role as one was a big part of the original movie, after all.

Maybe that one old dude from the start of the movie.

Why? Because they are going to fight Luke hand to hand? They are gonna shoot his ass.

I've played enough Battlefront to know that only ends in dead Stormtroopers.

 

[PHOENIXZERO]

My only complaint with Rey is how she quickly learned the Jedi Mind Trick. Isn't that a power you have to discover and study once you mastered the Force?

I think everyone knew Ren's whole deal in TFA. I don't think most people saw him as what you thought. He was cut clear a mentally unstable kid. Even when he took his mask off his whole face just screamed "incompetence."

The Jedi mind trick is pretty low level stuff. Really, using the Force wasn't meant to be some great task, it's just something that comes easier to some compared to others due to the natural strength of their connection to it. Being able to "control" (which might be the wrong word for Jedi) the Force is a small aspect of Jedi training which is more about the spiritual/mental aspects while teaching focus/clarity and controlling emotion, resisting the call of dark side and all that. It's largely a spiritual discipline.

If you can will it then you can do it.

 

[Shaanyboi]

I still don't understand the complaint that she's "too perfect". When she got captured, struggled using the blaster, and has a fear of facing new challenges or the unknown (wanting to go back to Jakku, refusing to take Luke's lightsaber).

Plus spent half of that Falcon chase crashing it into the ground

 

[Brawndo Addict]

Is Ethan Hunt a Gary Stu for being skilled at everything, incredibly charming, and overcoming all challenges with little to no character growth/arc? More importantly, does the answer or discussion really matter in terms of whether the character and films are enjoyable or well-made? Or do we need to employ more substantive analysis and critique to have a good discussion about films and genres that rises above just listing tropes as if they are self-proving arguments?

Perhaps more relevant, did people talk more about Ethan Hunt being unbelievable in the latest film or was more attention directed at Rebecca Ferguson's character? I do think that culturally, we find 'unbelievable' men more intrinsically plausible than 'unbelievable' women. The same issue is seen in politics too where women are judged more harshly than men.

 

[Goodstyle]

I figured she was just a naturally gifted person. It's not a stretch to say she's a genius. Very skilled in fighting, the force, shooting, technology, and piloting. My only issue is that it completely takes me out of investing in her training arc for the next movie. They'll obviously go with the "she has much to learn" route, but I'm gonna call major bull shit on it now. Luke had a lot to learn, Rey just needs to work out some personal issues.

I hope they do a twist that shows her having incredible skills early on and surprising Luke. I think a training arc that focuses on her dealing with her personal issues rather than her force abilities would be a lot more interesting.

 

[Arrowgigantic]

The issue isn't Rey using the force - nor even that she beat Ren, at least inherently - it's the lack of time, effort and training we see.

Luke literally figures out in less than one minute how to block blasts from a remote he can't see just by being told the force can do that.

 

[Brakke]

But she's quite compelling, on the sexism accusations I suppose it doesn't help that the movie was marketed as if Finn would be the new Luke. There is some backlash tho because she's a woman, even subtly due to the sheer amount of nitpicking. Not necessarily in this thread however. I honestly wonder if the complaints about the lightsaber fight would be anywhere near as much if Finn beat Kylo and saved Rey like audiences are accustomed too, because he hadn't shown to be in tune with the force at all in the movie.

Alas how can we evaluate this counterfactual? It's also true that there's a not-insignificant "feminist" critique at the ready to put scripts that damsel their heroines on blast, so even in your counterfactual I'd expect some idealogically prejudiced backlash, just from a different quarter. I think there'd also be a dispassionate dissatisfaction because that'd be a real dumb last hour turn.

 

[igordennis]

I still don't understand the complaint that she's "too perfect". When she got captured, struggled using the blaster, and has a fear of facing new challenges or the unknown (wanting to go back to Jakku, refusing to take Luke's lightsaber).

*Checks arbitrary flaw-o-meter

Thats not enough flaws.

 

[commish]

Luke literally figures out in less than one minute how to block blasts from a remote he can't see just by being told the force can do that.

That's a pretty far cry from what Rey did.

 

[Crossing Eden]

I think people are also feeding into the whole it's just a rehash of ANH too much. Yes it's a hero's journey and the origins are similar but the differences in the journey and the origins that should most definitely be taken into account. Evidently Luke could barely stand up for himself at the start, he had to be saved by Obiwan multiple times before learning a little about the force and receiving his father's lightsaber. Mainly because he was denied his heritage from his uncle. Rey from the beginning is shown to be able to fight and defend herself against multiple assailants instead of needing Finn to save her because she has no one to save her, she even carries around a pretty big knife and also isn't afraid of straight up being the aggressor the way she pursues Finn. Obviously she's good at climbing considering that she was scavenging from destroyed star destroyers. And ofc she drives her own vehicle. She right off the back is doing better at life than Luke simply because of her flaw where she refuses to leave because of the naive notion that her family will come back.

I figured she was just a naturally gifted person. It's not a stretch to say she's a genius. Very skilled in fighting, the force, shooting, technology, and piloting. My only issue is that it completely takes me out of investing in her training arc for the next movie. They'll obviously go with the "she has much to learn" route, but I'm gonna call major bull shit on it now. Luke had a lot to learn, Rey just needs to work out some personal issues.

I hope they do a twist that shows her having incredible skills early on and surprising Luke. I think a training arc that focuses on her dealing with her personal issues rather than her force abilities would be a lot more interesting.

She probably can't do things like Force Push. She does need a lot of training despite beating a wounded dark jedi in training.

Alas how can we evaluate this counterfactual? It's also true that there's a not-insignificant "feminist" critique at the ready to put scripts that damsel their heroines on blast, so even in your counterfactual I'd expect some idealogically prejudiced backlash, just from a different quarter. I think there'd also be a dispassionate dissatisfaction because that'd be a real dumb last hour turn.

Because heroines turning into damsels in distress, even ones who start off seemingly giving lip service, are very overused. The backlash would be due to the context of the moment and the setups that the film makes itself being contradicted. And yes that would be incredibly unsatisfying to see Finn beat Ren considering said setups and context.

 

[ZehDon]

Luke literally figures out in less than one minute how to block blasts from a remote he can't see just by being told the force can do that.

Luke figures out how to block low powered blasts from a training remote with direction, instruction and encouragement from the greatest Jedi Knight bar Yoda, and even is not confident in said lesson. He does not engage in mortal combat with a trained Sith with literally zero preceding training or knowledge.

 

[PHOENIXZERO]

It also seems like people really needed that part from the novelization that either got cut from the movie or wasn't filmed that shows exactly how Rey is a pilot instead of just being able to take her word for it since for whatever reason some are refusing to.


It seems like some are just refusing to accept what the movie showed them or a misunderstanding of how exactly the Force is supposed to work.

 

[Joeytj]

I don't really appreciate your dismals, given you're not explaining your position at all and are literally ignoring my posts, focusing on aspects that don't address my actual complaint: Rey's inexplicable force mastery.


I never said Ren was as powerful as Vader. I actually explained that he wasn't, and that I liked this aspect of the character. I feel that you're ignoring me at this point. I explained why the audience is expected to believe Ren is a Sith, and you've offered zero evidence to contrary. Simply put: being a Sith requires training in the ways of the force and light sabre, this undermines the credibility of Rey defeating Ren. If you disagree, please explain why.


She wasn't afraid of leaving Jakku, as we see in her excitement at seeing the forest planet for the first time. Rey was afraid of missing her family, who she expected to return to collect her. A trusting, almost noble, position to take, given the hardships we see her endure on Jakku. Loyalty and trust are not faults. In contrast, Luke rejected leaving Tatooine because Owen had drilled it into him that he was a farmer. It wasn't until Owen and his Aunt were killed that he decided to follow Kenobi.


I won't speak for the "Mary Sue" crowd you refer to, but the issue for me with Rey having no faults is that this means she doesn't have to grow or learn. If Rey never fails, and thus is perfect, what character does she have? The closest we see her failing is having to try twice to mind control another person. Of course, as you mention, she is a hero character, however Finn - the the other hero character - has clearly defined faults, and has real development. I like Rey, I mention before I think she's kick ass, I just wish she was presented better. This criticism is smaller than my criticism of her mastery of the force, to be fair.


The issue isn't Rey using the force - nor even that she beat Ren, at least inherently - it's the lack of time, effort and training we see. The simple question is: how can Rey perform a Jedi mind trick, perform telekinesis, and beat down a trained Sith with zero training in either the ways of the force, or a light sabre? The literally decades of training we see Anakin Skywalker undertake are almost meaningless in comparison if all it takes to achieve Rey's level of force mastery is some words of encouragement from a non-force user. This is the issue.

Rey does indeed run away from Kanata's castle because she's afraid of having to let go of the past, and I agree that isn't the works "defect" in a person, but again, she's not supposed to be the flawed hero in the story (although, again, she isn't perfect). Finn, if anything, is supposed to be it.

Neither of the main three (or four)? are 100% replicas of Han, Luke and Leia, as Rey has a bit of all three, and so does Finn, Poe and Kylo Ren (who also very obviously has characteristics of Anakin), but Rey is really more of a combination of Luke and young Obi-Wan, in that she has both a narrative of being destined for greatness, but also overall a decent guy.

Which, if certain theories are true, that might be the point.

Although I agree also that the combination of being "destined" for greatness and also being a very Obi-Wan type decent and humble person, does border on the unbelievable, almost as if you would combine Harry Potter and Hermione into one single über hero (Finn is basically Ron) although that's what the mystery of her past (was she trained? is she Luke's daughter) and her future kind of are for, to make you still hold out a verdict on her character.

 

[igordennis]

Block low powered blasts from a training remote with direction, instruction and encourgagement from the greatest Jedi Knight bar Yoda, not engage in mortal combat with a trained Sith with literally zero preceding training or knowledge.

Zero preceding knowledge? She was shown to be basically a Rebel fangirl. She knew all about the myths of the force and the jedi.

 

[ghst]

Looks like I'm actually being pretty careful to allow for the fact women could also be buying into the same false notions/narratives that some men are.

i'm glad you saw fit to exclude whatever the sum remainder of "people" is after you remove "a lot" from your embarrassing effort.

did you take a survey, what are the percentages?

 

[orthodoxy1095]

Well we can agree to disagree because I honestly don't remember sword users like this during the clone wars, but then again, I probably wouldn't have even taken note of them as unusual since there were jedi all over the place with swords. I haven't even SEEN a storm trooper carry a sword, let alone get training in them, and especially not Finn who was a stormtrooper who worked in sanitation . The closest we have was that one storm trooper with the baton weapon thingy who fought Finn, and that seemed to have been invented solely for that fight because we didn't see those weapons before or after.

Useless random lore tidbit, that was a riot control stormtrooper. Supposedly that weapon is meant to be a non-lethal stun baton.

 

[Boke1879]

Luke figures out how to block low powered blasts from a training remote with direction, instruction and encouragement from the greatest Jedi Knight bar Yoda, and even is not confident in said lesson. He does not engage in mortal combat with a trained Sith with literally zero preceding training or knowledge.

Kylo isn't a Sith and its outright stated that his training is incomplete

 

[opoth]

There's a good quote from twitter about this from Scott Lynch. He's talking about other stuff, but fits in this as well.

"Why do nutcase racist/nationalist bigots love STAR WARS, anyway? Nearly all the heroes are multilingual xenophiles who travel all the time."

Nice, it brings me back to all the post-ROTS meltdowns from conservative fans who were upset at certain lines in the movie that appeared to draw a line from the then current US administration to the Empire. I had a hard time parsing the criticism, because the Empire wasn't doing or saying anything that was at all inconsistent with how they had been portrayed in the OT, regardless of any similarities of language being used. I guess this means that these fans are anti-fascism in fiction but pro-fascist in real life? Didn't really compute.

Sorry for the derail - this just seems like a controversy being brewed up by a similar segment of the fanbase as last time that's really much ado about nothing.

 

[Mandius]

Luke literally figures out in less than one minute how to block blasts from a remote he can't see just by being told the force can do that.

Kylo Ren = training droid?

 

[GhaleonEB]

Luke figures out how to block low powered blasts from a training remote with direction, instruction and encouragement from the greatest Jedi Knight bar Yoda, and even is not confident in said lesson. He does not engage in mortal combat with a trained Sith with literally zero preceding training or knowledge.

He learns to channel the force to block laser blasts with a sword (when he's never used one before) three times in a row, while blind, in the span of one minute.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=190301258&postcount=603

That's actually a fair bit crazier than anything Rey does.

Kylo Ren = training droid?

Zero training in the force, or using swords. While blind. Three times. It's an enormous leap for a farmer to make, no?

 

[Goodstyle]

Block low powered blasts from a training remote with direction, instruction and encourgagement from the greatest Jedi Knight bar Yoda, not engage in mortal combat with a trained Sith with literally zero preceding training or knowledge.

Ya, I don't know why she's being compared to Luke so much. Rey has never even held a lightsaber before, there's no way she'd be proficient unless she was some kind of genius.

All of my issues with her would be erased if they would just acknowledge that in the next film. If they try to paint her as some young rookie who has a long road ahead of them like Luke, then I'm gonna get annoyed. She's clearly a prodigy, and that's a fresh angle to follow a new main character from. Let's hope they don't try to pretend she's anything but that.

 

[Bobby Roberts]

i'm glad you saw fit to exclude whatever the sum remainder of "people" is after you remove "a lot" from your embarrassing effort.

Your self-appointed role as a Gene Shalit of the forum post is pret-ty tired, dude.

"His argument falls down because I know there's a girl out there who agrees with me."

Okay.

I'm glad you're glad, though!

 

[ElBoxyBrown]

About Ren's situation:

1. He was shot pretty bad by Chewie's crossbow blaster. That wound went in deep and he nearly had to fight with one hand.
2. He was mentally unstable after killing Han. For as cold and heartless as he presents himself to be Ren still feels emotions and he doesn't know how to handle it which is proving to be his biggest weakness. He had a million things going through his head as he was fighting both Finn and Rey. He doesn't know how to supress them and it's having a negative effect not only with his combat skills but with The First Order.
3. He isn't a master of the dark side yet. Snoke still needs to complete his training so Ren is far from being some unstoppable warrior.

 

[Boke1879]

Kylo Ren = training droid?

Similar concept. In less than 1 minute he blocks 3 successive laser blasts while blind by using the force

 

[EviLore]

No he shouldn't. He's trained for years, with Luke himself and is a Skywalker. She's a girl who lives by stealing parts, come on.

Dude, she was a fucking SCAVENGER and could hold against a Sith master in a lightsaber duel with the power of closing your eyes. The first part of the duel? Ok fine, but the revengeance was very hard to believe.

The Sith are history. You mean the leader of the Knights of Ren, a well-trained force user but also an angsty petulant child with an acute case of force-schizophrenia, barely holding himself together physically and mentally after a bowcaster shot to the gut, an unexpected lightsaber wound on his arm from our charming ex-stormtrooper hero, and an emotionally conflicted patricide on his mind.

Rey, meanwhile, is a largely unharmed extremely gifted force sensitive who spent her entire road to adulthood successfully surviving on an unforgiving desert planet, along the way becoming a capable melee combatant in her own right. After spending her duel overwhelmed and on the defensive against a guy she has very good reason to be intimidated by via prior events, she's able to calm herself and open herself up to the force when she's cornered and given a chance to breathe after Kylo switches to "join me (and make up your mind quickly I'm bleeding to death)" mode.

Kylo is pretty screwed at the point he loses the psychological advantage there, even without the force playing its part, since he's mainly putting up a front by continuing to act hard. Dude needs an ambulance and meanwhile he's punching his gaping chest wound over and over and trying to show how alpha he is against Finn (costing Kylo a lightsaber to the arm).

Setting aside all the battle damage and other emotional distress, he'll recall he lost a battle of force wills to Rey on the ship and that he has also inadvertently demonstrated all sorts of force abilities to her that she subsequently learns how to use: the mind powers at the interrogation, but also the force push that knocked her out by surprise right before their duel, which led straight into her force grabbing Luke's lightsaber and overpowering Kylo's attempt at doing the same once she woke up. He'd be really reluctant to use any force powers after yet again seeing that she has learned from his demonstrations and again seeing her out-forcing him directly with the technique in question.

Rey ditches her fear, confidently takes the fight to him with some force guidance, and gets 'er done against a battered, unhinged, force-handicapped Kylo. It's not unreasonable in that context.

 

[ZehDon]

Rey does indeed run away from Kanata's castle because she's afraid of having to let go of the past, and I agree that isn't the works "defect" in a person, but again, she's not supposed to be the flawed hero in the story (although, again, she isn't perfect). Finn, if anything, is supposed to be it.

Neither of the main three (or four)? are 100% replicas of Han, Luke and Leia, as Rey has a bit of all three, and so does Finn, Poe and Kylo Ren (who also very obviously has characteristics of Anakin), but Rey is really more of a combination of Luke and young Obi-Wan, in that she has both a narrative of being destined for greatness, but also overall a decent guy.

Which, if certain theories are true, that might be the point.

Although I agree also that the combination of being "destined" for greatness and also being a very Obi-Wan type decent and humble person, does border on the unbelievable, almost as if you would combine Harry Potter and Hermione into one single über hero (Finn is basically Ron) although that's what the mystery of her past (was she trained? is she Luke's daughter) and her future kind of are for, to make you still hold out a verdict on her character.

I largely agree with you, to be honest. Especially about Rey and Finn's nature; Finn is the "flawed" hero, while Rey is the one destined for greatness. And, ultimately, I'm not saying Rey is a terrible character - just a poorly written one, stuck into poorly thought out situations. I loved Daisy Ridley in the role, and I really enjoyed the film, and look forward to the next one. I just see Rey's mastery of the force as undermining what we see in the previous films, which is something I don't like because it doesn't make sense in context of the other films. That's, literally, my only real complaint with the film.

 

[Crossing Eden]

Luke figures out how to block low powered blasts from a training remote with direction, instruction and encouragement from the greatest Jedi Knight bar Yoda, and even is not confident in said lesson. He does not engage in mortal combat with a trained Sith with literally zero preceding training or knowledge.

Again, Rey doesn't go into that fight with zero training or knowledge. She already knew about the force and lightsabers, not necessarily the nature of them but that they exist. Unlike Luke who wasn't confident, she was already confident in the nature of the force. She already had combat training and multiple times in the movie used the force involuntarily and voluntarily. Stop ignoring the context man.

 

[-ImaginaryInsider]

Yeah, I think she was a bit overpowered, but if they explain it away that she learned some of the skills when she was younger, it will retroactively make everything fine imo. I do wish she had done the Jedi mind trick on accident, or the lightsaber fight was more Ren toying with her, got cocky, then she owned him due to his arrogance, but all that is nitpicky on my part.

Ultimately she was a fun character, Daisey did a great job, and I'm looking forward to her kicking ass in the next movie.