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[ZehDon]

He learns to channel the force to block laser blasts with a sword (when he's never used one before) three times in a row, while blind, in the span of one minute.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=190301258&postcount=603

That's actually a fair bit crazier than anything Rey does.

Really? You consider that less plausible in context than mind controlling a storm trooper without knowing mind control via the force is actually a thing?

Again, Rey doesn't go into that fight with zero training or knowledge. She already knew about the force and lightsabers, not necessarily the nature of them but that they exist. Unlike Luke who wasn't confident, she was already confident in the nature of the force. She already had combat training and multiple times in the movie used the force involuntarily and voluntarily. Stop ignoring the context man.

Rey's combat prowess in and of itself isn't the issue. She's lived a hard life on Jakku, and we see she's capable with a staff. A staff, of course, is not a light sabre, but let's presume she can wield one. A single handed weapon is clearly not her preference. Ren was clearly trained to use one as well. Being trained, as opposed to learning out of necessity and not preferring the weapon, gives the edge in combat to Ren, hence him dominating the earlier part of the fight. None of this is really my issue. Her mastery of the force, which allows her to win, makes no sense. How was Rey already confident in the force? Because Han Solo confirmed that the mythical Jedi were real? Because a non-force user said nice things? Luke had a living, breathing Jedi demonstrate a mind trick to him before he picked up a light sabre, and was ready and willing to learn. You say Rey used the force many times in the film voluntarily - and that's precisely the issue. How was she capable of doing this?

 

[Vice]

Luke figures out how to block low powered blasts from a training remote with direction, instruction and encouragement from the greatest Jedi Knight bar Yoda, and even is not confident in said lesson. He does not engage in mortal combat with a trained Sith with literally zero preceding training or knowledge.

As far as it goes, the art of lightsaber combat is pretty much dead. Luke got into two actual fights and had no one to train with until he started a new Jedi order.

He never even got much formal training in terms of technique. If he's who trained Kylo Ren then he likely just got him to be very familiar with using the weapon, but lacked the finer points that someone like Vader or Obi-Wan could have taught.

 

[GhaleonEB]

Really? You consider that less plausible in context than mind controlling a storm trooper without knowing mind control via the force is actually a thing?

I agree the mind control scene is a stretch, I've said as much (in the spoiler OT a while back, blink and you miss it in there).

That said, in both cases they are 1) natural gifted in the force, 2) have just become aware of their sensitivity to it, and 3) have a teacher. Rey is learning everything she does from Kylo, right down to discovering she can use the force to begin with. (Evilore covered that quite well above, no need to me to repeat it.) Meanwhile Luke is a farmer, while Rey is a survivor and fighter.

Let me put it this way. If Rey was using her lightsaber to block laser blasts and then did so with her eyes closed, would people be protesting that she was over powered? Probably so. Luke did this in one minute flat.

 

[Mandius]

Zero training in the force, or using swords. While blind. Three times. It's an enormous leap for a farmer to make, no?

Being told how to stand correctly to hit a punching bag is less of a leap than jumping into the ring with a professional boxer after watching some punches been thrown on tv.

Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't the final battle also the first time Rey even turns on the lightsaber?

 

[Jarmel]

Similar concept. In less than 1 minute he blocks 3 successive laser blasts while blind by using the force

Here is the sequence in shitty quality:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X69NCLxwLEY

He gets zapped a number of times and Obi-Wan has to coach him through it. Even then I don't think he uses blaster reflection in an actual fight until RotJ. There isn't the impression that he mastered it in ANH, hell Han calls it luck immediately after.

 

[igordennis]

Really? You consider that less plausible in context than mind controlling a storm trooper without knowing mind control via the force is actually a thing?

Like i said she was shown to have a lot of interest on the myths of the jedi and the rebellion. Given her interest, she would have naturally came to know about the crazier stuff that was said they could do like mind control since those are the kind of things myths like the best.

 

[Brakke]

Kylo isn't a Sith and its outright stated that his training is incomplete

"Incompletely trained" Anakin slays Darth Tyrannus, right hand of The Emperor and Dark Lord of the Sith. The fuck does "incompleteness" mean? Why do we set any store by Snoke's evaluation of Kylo's "completeness"? Snoke hasn't even demonstrated Force use himself.

Zero training in the force, or using swords. While blind. Three times. It's an enormous leap for a farmer to make, no?

"Good against remotes is one thing. Good against the living, well that's something else."

Even if it'd be a dramatic improvement for *me* to blind-block a droid, A New Hope at least dramatically cuts down the impressiveness of the feat.

 

[PHOENIXZERO]

Yeah, I think she was a bit overpowered, but if they explain it away that she learned some of the skills when she was younger, it will retroactively make everything fine imo. I do wish she had done the Jedi mind trick on accident, or the lightsaber fight was more Ren toying with her, got cocky, then she owned him due to his arrogance, but all that is nitpicky on my part.

Ultimately she was a fun character, Daisey did a great job, and I'm looking forward to her kicking ass in the next movie.

I think it was better that she tried to do it three times and failed the first two. Her just randomly doing it on accident and it working would've been exactly what the complaints about her being able to do it at all would amount to. She managed to do it because like at the end she took a moment to clear her mind, calm down and focus.

 

[ElBoxyBrown]

This is just like Halo 4 all over again. LOL

The start of a new trilogy but people fighting over "The Chosen One/Hidden Power" type story.

 

[Aselith]

Here is the sequence in shitty quality:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X69NCLxwLEY

He gets zapped a number of times and Obi-Wan has to coach him through it. Even then I don't think he uses blaster reflection in an actual fight until RotJ. There isn't the impression that he mastered it in ANH, hell Han calls it luck immediately after.

He doesn't get in any encounters where he even could use it until ROTJ. He's almost completely sidelined during Empire after the Hoth battle.

 

[Veelk]

Rey ditches her fear, confidently takes the fight to him with some force guidance, and gets 'er done against a battered, unhinged, force-handicapped Kylo. It's not unreasonable in that context.

I'm still thoroughly convinced that the writers binged watched the plinkett reviews as a way to taking notes on what to do, and it's interesting to me that there is such resistance to the idea when the entire fight is predicated on it being a battle of wills. Ren was weak willed. This is repeatedly established through the film as a symptom of his instability and internal conflict. Meanwhile, Rey's decision to become one with the force reflected on willingness to resolve her internal conflict. In SW light saber battles, the best battles are ones that have to do with will. That's what made both Luke vs Vader fights compelling.

While I can't generalize this for all fans, of course, plinketts reviews are almost universally agreed upon. So the fact that Rey vs Ren isn't viewed as in terms of battle of wills is...interesting.

 

[Vice]

"Incompletely trained" Anakin slays Darth Tyrannus, right hand of The Emperor and Dark Lord of the Sith. The fuck does "incompleteness" mean? Why do we set any store by Snoke's evaluation of Kylo's "completeness"? Snoke hasn't even demonstrated Force use himself.



"Good against remotes is one thing. Good against the living, well that's something else."

Even if it'd be a dramatic improvement for *me* to blind-block a droid, A New Hope at least dramatically cuts down the impressiveness of the feat.

Anakin had completed his training and become a Jedi Knight by that point. I think he was even being considered for a promotion to master around that point.

 

[Veelk]

"Good against remotes is one thing. Good against the living, well that's something else."

Even if it'd be a dramatic improvement for *me* to blind-block a droid, A New Hope at least dramatically cuts down the impressiveness of the feat.

Yes, lets take the word of a smuggler who didn't believe the force existed until that moment as conclusive proof of how effective Luke's ability is.

It's kinda surprising how willing people are to take the word of characters on abilities. Luke's abilities are justified because he says he shot at roadkill, and his BFF vouches for him in his time of desperation, and now Han is apparently an authority on force abilities.

But actually depicted abilities and wounds and emotional turmoil have room for ambiguity, apparently.

 

[TheOctodad]

All these people taking about a lightsaber and how impossible it is to handle. Yet my guess is most people could hold one and control it to a marginal level without hurting themselves.

Now fighting? That's a different story, but people make it sound like it's absolutely to even hold the thing. I don't think it would be THAT hard.

 

[excelsiorlef]

I'm still thoroughly convinced that the writers binged watched the plinkett reviews as a way to taking notes on what to do, and it's interesting to me that there is such resistance to the idea when the entire fight is predicated on it being a battle of wills. Ren was weak willed. This is repeatedly established through the film as a symptom of his instability and internal conflict. Meanwhile, Rey's decision to become one with the force reflected on willingness to resolve her internal conflict. In SW light saber battles, the best battles are ones that have to do with will. That's what made both Luke vs Vader fights compelling.

While I can't generalize this for all fans, of course, plinketts reviews are almost universally agreed upon. So the fact that Rey vs Ren isn't viewed as in terms of battle of wills is...interesting.

Also Rey's background leaves her more likely to be good at keeping control and for the lack of a better term meditating.

She's grown up alone, with little distractions but survival, her quiet fun moments are to literally sit outside and just stare in silence. Her checking off each day, her intense focus in something so simple as just waiting makes her a perfect candidate for someone who is clearly hella force sensitive to pick up the the more zen like state one needs to enter to really take on the force.

Her entire life pre the movie seems to lend to a character who is very much in touch with her mind.

 

[Mandius]

While I can't generalize this for all fans, of course, plinketts reviews are almost universally agreed upon. So the fact that Rey vs Ren isn't viewed as in terms of battle of wills is...interesting.

There are better ways to show a battle of wills and force ability than a lightsaber fight. Something the Plinkett reviews point out.


And Kylo isn't weak willed, he is conflicted. He he kills his father.

 

[flintstryker]

😂😂
There's a ton of projection and part-time psychology there.

I did find it funny how a scavanger like Rey was somehow this expert pilot, skilled mechanic, competent marksman, and even suddenly good enough with a lightsaber to not only hold her own against a trained Jedi/Sith but defeat him. But sure, TFA is sci-fi fantasy, so it all just works....and having The Force on her side helps.

Some of it was just eye roll-inducing, but in the end I didn't care. The movie rocked.

This is pretty much where I'm at I saw all those shit and was like well yeah this is definitely a movie and thought nothing more of it, that we're getting so many hyper analysis of this just says to me that people are taking this a little bit too seriously.

 

[Jarmel]

He doesn't get in any encounters where he even could use it until ROTJ. He's almost completely sidelined during Empire after the Hoth battle.

He probably could have done it after the Yoda training considering he does a Force Jump during the Bespin fight and is generally better all around but at the beginning of ESB, he wasn't exactly an expert considering he had difficulty pulling a lightsaber.

I mean the movies were written in such a way that Luke didn't use his Force powers that much before RotJ.

 

[Crossing Eden]

Really? You consider that less plausible in context than mind controlling a storm trooper without knowing mind control via the force is actually a thing?


Rey's combat prowess in and of itself isn't the issue. She's lived a hard life on Jakku, and we see she's capable with a staff. A staff, of course, is not a light sabre, but let's presume she can wield one. A single handed weapon is clearly not her preference. Ren was clearly trained to use one as well. Being trained, as opposed to learning out of necessity and not preferring the weapon, gives the edge in combat to Ren, hence him dominating the earlier part of the fight. None of this is really my issue. Her mastery of the force, which allows her to win, makes no sense. How was Rey already confident in the force? Because Han Solo confirmed that the mythical Jedi were real? Because a non-force user said nice things? Luke had a living, breathing Jedi demonstrate a mind trick to him before he picked up a light sabre, and was ready and willing to learn. You say Rey used the force many times in the film voluntarily - and that's precisely the issue. How was she capable of doing this?

She also carries around a knife. The star is just her primary, but as we saw with Darth Maul, a single saber is no issue. A staff isn't a lightsaber, but again we're talking about a force user letting go of their fear, becoming very in tune with the force and letting it guide their actions, against an incredibly distressed and already wounded enemy who evidently left many openings in his fighting style. Kylo Ren only has the edge that she is afraid of him. Rey was confident in the force because
-She experienced it multiple times
-She was explicitly told that she's powerful in the force and also experienced visions
-Has used the force multiple times
-Uses the force to resist another user using it on her and reverse the situation

She's capable of doing it the same way Luke is capable of using it multiple times in the same movie, because it comes naturally to her. The force is something that people are naturally attuned to. By nature of being able to use the force they're incredibly attuned to it. It makes perfect sense and we've seen it a ton of times throughout the franchise.

I'm still thoroughly convinced that the writers binged watched the plinkett reviews as a way to taking notes on what to do, and it's interesting to me that there is such resistance to the idea when the entire fight is predicated on it being a battle of wills. Ren was weak willed. This is repeatedly established through the film as a symptom of his instability and internal conflict. Meanwhile, Rey's decision to become one with the force reflected on willingness to resolve her internal conflict. In SW light saber battles, the best battles are ones that have to do with will. That's what made both Luke vs Vader fights compelling.

While I can't generalize this for all fans, of course, plinketts reviews are almost universally agreed upon. So the fact that Rey vs Ren isn't viewed as in terms of battle of wills is...interesting.

Exactly. It's not a battle of "skill." It's a battle of two conflicting sides of the force and there is a shit ton of tension because it thematically works incredibly well.

 

[Veelk]

There are better ways to show a battle of wills and force ability than a lightsaber fight. Something the Plinkett reviews point out.

It's not the only way, sure, but his point was that the lightsaber fights are a metaphor for those character's wills and emotions. Which is whats happening with Rey and Ren.

 

[Arrowgigantic]

LUKE DIDN'T EVEN HAVE TO SEE TO BLOCK RAPID FIRE BLASTER BOLTS. IT WAS HIS FIRST LESSON. The "lesson" being "use the force, feel it".

And why is it so hard to understand that the likely story here is that Rey is just more powerful than Luke? That's how these stories go.

 

[orthodoxy1095]

I mean the movies were written in such a way that Luke didn't use his Force powers that much before RotJ.

That's actually an interesting observation. I hope the ST keeps the Force usage toned down...

 

[Sami+]

Excellent OP. I won't say everyone who doesn't like her is sexist or anything, but there's a lot out there that paints Max Landis as kind of a piece of shit so there's that. I very honestly doubt this debate would exist if she wasn't a woman.

 

[-tetsuo-]

You know what would probably make him less good at swordfighting and emotionally distressed
-Being berated for his decisions multiple times
-Being resisted by another force user, who he hasn't seen in years
-Wanting guidance from the dark side of the force but not receiving it
-Needing help to fully embrace the dark side
-Killing his father and then being forgiven directly afterwards
-Getting shot in the abdomen
-Seeing the two directly responsible for his current predicament, including the one he's supposed to capture
-The emotional anger caused by seeing "his birthright" used by a stormtrooper
-Getting further wounded by said stormtrooper in his dominant arm
-Being so distressed that he can't even use force pull correctly
-Seeing yet another person use "his birthright"

All of these things are directly spelled out on screen during the film yet people are acting like the dude was perfectly fine from the onset or that the point wasn't to tear him down and show that while he has potential he is not Darth Vader's equal.

Once again, the only one who questioned him at all before he met Naruto was Hux. Once he met her, apparently his character just became a bumbling loser who can't control his emotions and forgets how to use the force at the most convenient times. As I said earlier again, if people insist on comparing this movie to A New Hope, Kylo Ren showcased a much greater command of the force than Vader did.

The one you're ignoring.

Kinda like how you initially ignored Veelk's post in the spoiler thread in order to maintain the stance you're still taking now.

I didn't ignore anything. I read a lot of it and he was going on about Bella Swan being the center of a story and black hole characters.... that isn't what I am talking about. I even quoted the defined version of Mary Sue that I am talking about.

"A Mary Sue or, in case of a male, Gary Stu or Marty Stu is an idealized fictional character, a young or low-rank person who saves the day through extraordinary abilities."


That is the first sentence on wikipedia. Did she not:

Save BB-8 from the scrapper?
Save them from the tie fighters?
Save them from the poison gas?
Save Finn from the whatever the hell that was?
Save the Falcon from exploding?
Save the map data from Kylo Ren?
Save herself from capture?
Disable the door locks in about 10 seconds flat on the top secret First Order facility?
Save herself and Finn from Kylo Ren in a light saber battle?

She was saving everyone the entire movie. nothing said about being perfect, not making mistakes or having the entire story revolve around her.

I think I need to step back and state that I usually don't even let this kind of stuff bother me, and I did enjoy the movie as dumb as it was. I like the Ethan Hunts and the John Matrixes just as much as the next guy. You have to properly frame it, however, and execute it gracefully. This was not done in such a manner. She was an example of the worst of it. Just a new blood stumbling from rough situation to rough situation, solving them in record time.

 

[Arrowgigantic]

hell Han calls it luck immediately after.

Han is dumb as hell. Literally the smartest thing he does is he shoots Greedo. It's all downhill from there.

Oh by the way, intelligence is a genetic trait too.

 

[ZehDon]

I agree the mind control scene is a stretch, I've said as much (in the spoiler OT a while back, blink and you miss it in there).

That said, in both cases they are 1) natural gifted in the force, 2) have just become aware of their sensitivity to it, and 3) have a teacher. Rey is learning everything she does from Kylo, right down to discovering she can use the force to begin with. (Evilore covered that quite well above, no need to me to repeat it.) Meanwhile Luke is a farmer, while Rey is a survivor and fighter.

Let me put it this way. If Rey was using her lightsaber to block laser blasts and then did so with her eyes closed, would people be protesting that she was over powered? Probably so. Luke did this in one minute flat.

Fair enough. I agree with your points 1 and 2, and 3 I suppose is the crux of my issue. Rey didn't have a teacher, only a demonstration of what a force user is capable of. Witnessing a Sith fight with a light sabre is prequel levels of bad writing if it is indeed the justification for Rey's master of the force in the climax. If Rey had directly copied Ren in some manner, a clear visual mimicry, I could consider it, however she really doesn't. Her victory simply doesn't feel earned, or justified, given everything (all films included) preceding it.

As for your last comment, depending on the context, no. Presented a clear visual throw back to that exact scene with Luke, it would feel damn near appropriate. However, Rey closing her eyes in the middle of a war zone and deflecting laser shots blind would be pretty awful. That's really the difference I see in the climax of the film. Luke used the force and trusted in his instincts to bring down the Death Star - a shot, that is established, he's already capable of. Rey used the force to defeat a Sith in mortal combat that she was losing using a weapon she's not shown to be terribly familiar with. It's simply a stretch to far, for me.

 

[Mandius]

REEEE

 

[BlastProcessing]

Opposed to seeing her friend Han Solo die and Finn badly wounded and her being injured by the force push? Not to mention she had no training at all?

Watch how she fights. It's all thrusts and overhead strikes. she uses the Light Saber like a quarterstaff, a weapon that she is proficient with.

And Kylo Ren is under orders to bring her in alive so he is holding back until she finds her focus and surprises him.

 

[DryEyeRelief]

LUKE DIDN'T EVEN HAVE TO SEE TO BLOCK RAPID FIRE BLASTER BOLTS. IT WAS HIS FIRST LESSON. The "lesson" being "use the force, feel it".

And why is it so hard to understand that the likely story here is that Rey is just more powerful than Luke? That's how these stories go.

I don't think anyone is debating that. The accusation is that Rey isn't as compelling of a character as Luke as a result of her power/talent/whatever.

Well, the people who are saying Rey and Luke are the same are actually the ones that like Rey's current characterization and Luke in the previous movies validates it/the opposite side is being hypocritical.

 

[Bobby Roberts]

I didn't ignore anything. I read a lot of it .

No.

I skimmed that but it doesn't matter.

Those were your actual words.

 

[plasmawave]

Watch how she fights. It's all thrusts and overhead strikes. she uses the Light Saber like a quarterstaff, a weapon that she is proficient with.

And Kylo Ren is under orders to bring her in alive so he is holding back until she finds her focus and surprises him.

Except earlier on in the film he completely froze and kidnapped her.

 

[igordennis]

No.



Those were your actual words.

And after all this time you'd think he would have at least finished reading it if he wants to be a part of the discussion but you can see from the same old tired points he made he probably stopped reading at Bella.

 

[Aselith]

Except earlier on in the film he completely froze and kidnapped her.

But that was before the torture chair where she learns to fight back against it.

 

[-ImaginaryInsider]

I think it was better that she tried to do it three times and failed the first two. Her just randomly doing it on accident and it working would've been exactly what the complaints about her being able to do it at all would amount to. She managed to do it because like at the end she took a moment to clear her mind, calm down and focus.

I meant more like she is talking to herself out loud and is panicking on what to do, she remembers what Maz says, calms herself, but keeps talking to herself...but now the Stormtrooper repeats what she has just said, then she figures it out from there.

Even that is a total nitpick on my part, and ultimately if they show she had done it/seen it done as a kid, the scene will be fine as is. I think most of the "Mary Sue" complaints could easily be explained away in the next movie without much effort.

 

[Doc Holliday]

I think Rey getting so good quickly has a lot to do with her past and the visions she had when she held the lightsaber. I wouldn't be surprised if the the force can be bonded to objects, would explain Kylo Ren wanting it.

 

[Jarmel]

That's actually an interesting observation. I hope the ST keeps the Force usage toned down...

The problem with the film that is resulting in this thread essentially is that Abrams fucked up the pacing. Luke had a relatively slow development throughout the OT and Anakin benefitted from lengthy time skips.

When you potentially have the main character doing this in the first episode of a trilogy, it feels like something went haywire with the pacing/build-up. The OT had a really slow burn in how elements like the Force powers were treated and here it feels accelerated.

 

[plasmawave]

But that was before the torture chair where she learns to fight back against it.

Well she couldn't block the force push either.

 

[Subpar Spatula]

If A New Hope was released today, Luke would be ripped apart by people pointing out flaws in the movie.

 

[-tetsuo-]

No.



Those were your actual words.

Right. I didn't ignore it. What point are you trying to make?

If A New Hope was released today, Luke would be ripped apart by people pointing out flaws in the movie.

I would also like to state that I think A New Hope is not a good movie.

 

[Squire]

I think Rey getting so good quickly has a lot to do with her past and the visions she had when she held the lightsaber. I wouldn't be surprised if the the force can be bonded to objects, would explain Kylo Ren wanting it.

Lightsaber crystals do have a presence in the force, at least according to old EU material.

I can't see why that would change, but you never know.

 

[Arrowgigantic]

Also, how did Harry learn parseltongue

 

[excelsiorlef]

Also, how did Harry learn parseltongue

He literally had part of Voldy's soul in him.

 

[TheOctodad]

Also, how did Harry learn parseltongue

He's a Gary Stu and OP

 

[jond76]

Really? You consider that less plausible in context than mind controlling a storm trooper without knowing mind control via the force is actually a thing?


Rey's combat prowess in and of itself isn't the issue. She's lived a hard life on Jakku, and we see she's capable with a staff. A staff, of course, is not a light sabre, but let's presume she can wield one. A single handed weapon is clearly not her preference. Ren was clearly trained to use one as well. Being trained, as opposed to learning out of necessity and not preferring the weapon, gives the edge in combat to Ren, hence him dominating the earlier part of the fight. None of this is really my issue. Her mastery of the force, which allows her to win, makes no sense. How was Rey already confident in the force? Because Han Solo confirmed that the mythical Jedi were real? Because a non-force user said nice things? Luke had a living, breathing Jedi demonstrate a mind trick to him before he picked up a light sabre, and was ready and willing to learn. You say Rey used the force many times in the film voluntarily - and that's precisely the issue. How was she capable of doing this?

My thoughts from another thread:

I think Rey addressing the Jedi as "I thought that was a myth" buys a lot of leeway with her mind control scene. She seems to be interested in the Jedi mythology enough to know what abilities they may have had.

I equate it with maybe something like vampires for us. Someone tells you that it's true, all of it, then later you run into a vampire. What do you do? Sunlight? Garlic? Wooden stake? You might try those things, and maybe it would work.

 

[Crossing Eden]

Once again, the only one who questioned him at all before he met Naruto was Hux. Once he met her, apparently his character just became a bumbling loser who can't control his emotions and forgets how to use the force at the most convenient times. As I said earlier again, if people insist on comparing this movie to A New Hope, Kylo Ren showcased a much greater command of the force than Vader did.

Ok first of all please stop referring to the character as Naruto, it's cringeworthy and condescending. And no it wasn't right after he met Rey that he couldn't control his emotions, or did you forget these moments.
-Kills an old man in cold blood for not telling him what he wants to know
-Completely loses it when told that the Droid escaped from his men by stealing a freighter
-Proceeds to lose it even more after finding out that a girl was with them
All of these moments happen before he meets Rey. They show that his emotions are unstable, he is even able to use the force after directly meeting Rey, it's when it's shown that she's actually force sensitive, able to resist and reverse his own technique on him that he begins to show more doubt, it becomes the pivotal moment in his character arc. He doesn't even command a greater show of the force than Vader did, Vader was almost always composed and knew when to tap into the dark side to become empowered, blocked blasts with his bare hands, and obviously had a much more complete lightsaber.

Except earlier on in the film he completely froze and kidnapped her.

It's almost like he's so distressed and wounded that he has trouble using the force, if only they would've shown this in some way, like maybe him struggling to use a force power like force pull, for something important that he wants. It's called context and by god so many people are ignoring it.

 

[Aselith]

Well she couldn't block the force push either.

Totally but there's a difference between disrupting a sudden push and breaking a constant hold, I assume.

 

[The Librarian]

Fair enough. I agree with your points 1 and 2, and 3 I suppose is the crux of my issue. Rey didn't have a teacher, only a demonstration of what a force user is capable of. Witnessing a Sith fight with a light sabre is prequel levels of bad writing if it is indeed the justification for Rey's master of the force in the climax. If Rey had directly copied Ren in some manner, a clear visual mimicry, I could consider it, however she really doesn't. Her victory simply doesn't feel earned, or justified, given everything (all films included) preceding it.

As for your last comment, depending on the context, no. Presented a clear visual throw back to that exact scene with Luke, it would feel damn near appropriate. However, Rey closing her eyes in the middle of a war zone and deflecting laser shots blind would be pretty awful. That's really the difference I see in the climax of the film. Luke used the force and trusted in his instincts to bring down the Death Star - a shot, that is established, he's already capable of. Rey used the force to defeat a Sith in mortal combat that she was losing using a weapon she's not shown to be terribly familiar with. It's simply a stretch to far, for me.

Rey had two teachers throughout the film: Maz, and, inadvertently, Ren.

And Luke used the force to defeat a military installation using a machine that's not shown he's terribly familiar with.

 

[Bobby Roberts]

Right. I didn't ignore it.

You also didn't read it, much less read a lot of it. you skimmed it enough to determine it "didn't matter."

You're basically not even interested in discussion at all, is the point I'm trying to make. And likely haven't been all day.

 

[Mandius]

If A New Hope was released today, Luke would be ripped apart by people pointing out flaws in the movie.

No. ANH is a perfect example of how to write a screenplay.

 

[Branduil]

When you consider Kylo Ren's injuries and mental state, he's probably at 30% of his normal efficiency, at best. And it still takes a force power-up for Rey to beat him.

I mean, if there was an NBA game where Lebron had the flu, and one of his family members was gravely ill, and he got outscored by a scrub, would you call bullshit on real life?