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[Beast Legacy]

Watching over the Luke lightsaber training, it's all right there.

Obi-Wan: Remember, a Jedi can feel the Force flowing through him.
Luke: You mean it controls your actions?
Obi-Wan: Partially, but it also obeys your commands.

Couple that with all the evidence of Ren being severely weakened both physically and emotionally (along with him not wanting to kill Rey in the first place) and it's pretty obvious why Rey "won" the final fight. Still ridiculous that it needs a justification but everything about it is plausible within the film's universe. Ren also wanted a couple of things from her: the rest of the map to Luke, secrets buried within her mind and for her to outright fall to the Dark Side as his apprentice. Perhaps maim and incapacitate Rey, but not kill her.

As for her knowing about the Jedi mind trick? The film shows that the tales of the old films, Jedi, the Sith, etc., have all become legend. Upon meeting Finn and learning BB has a map to Luke Skywalker, Rey immediately knows who he is even as a myth. So when Han later confirms that the myths are true ("All of it"), you're damn right she is going to try the Jedi mind trick. It's not as if it's some secret technique; in RotJ Jabba laughs at Luke's attempt at the Jedi mind trick so it's clearly established as a known ability for Force users.

 

[orthodoxy1095]

The problem with the film that is resulting in this thread essentially is that Abrams fucked up the pacing. Luke had a relatively slow development throughout the OT and Anakin benefitted from lengthy time skips.

When you potentially have the main character doing this in the first episode of a trilogy, it feels like something went haywire with the pacing/build-up. The OT had a really slow burn in how elements like the Force powers were treated and here it feels accelerated.

Another really astute observation on the pacing. I wonder how much Johnson can slow down the pace, if at all.

Although a dark part of my evil little heart still wishes we could see that scene with the Star Destroyers being cut up by lightsabers

Also, how did Harry learn parseltongue

Being a freaking horcrux? I mean, at least try harder to make a better point.

 

[DragonSworne]

Really? You consider that less plausible in context than mind controlling a storm trooper without knowing mind control via the force is actually a thing?

Why doesn't she know that mind control via the force is a thing? EVERYONE IN STAR WARS KNOWS THAT JEDIS HAVE MIND CONTROL.

 

[Jarmel]

Is there anything in the novel about Ren's mental state at the end? It seems like his mind would probably be the clearest in the entire film at that point. He's gotten rid of the internal struggle in his heart by killing Han, so all that should be left is the Darkside.

 

[Vice]

Why doesn't she know that mind control via the force is a thing? EVERYONE IN STAR WARS KNOWS THAT JEDIS HAVE MIND CONTROL.

Kylo Ren had tried the same thing on her a few minutes earlier.

Is there anything in the novel about Ren's mental state at the end? It seems like his mind would probably be the clearest in the entire film at that point. He's gotten rid of the internal struggle in his heart by killing Han, so all that should be left is the Darkside.

From the excerpt of it that I read in regards to that showed that it had the opposite effect. Killing Han made him feel even worse.

 

[Ashhong]

I really dont get the conflict about her lightsaber skills. Girl is a beast with a staff, why wouldn't she be skilled with a lightsaber? Add a little force, Ren's injuries and lack of training, and it doesn't seem so far fetched to me.

 

[ZehDon]

She also carries around a knife. The star is just her primary, but as we saw with Darth Maul, a single saber is no issue. A staff isn't a lightsaber, but again we're talking about a force user letting go of their fear, becoming very in tune with the force and letting it guide their actions, against an incredibly distressed and already wounded enemy who evidently left many openings in his fighting style. Kylo Ren only has the edge that she is afraid of him. Rey was confident in the force because
-She experienced it multiple times
-She was explicitly told that she's powerful in the force and also experienced visions
-Has used the force multiple times
-Uses the force to resist another user using it on her and reverse the situation

She's capable of doing it the same way Luke is capable of using it multiple times in the same movie, because it comes naturally to her. The force is something that people are naturally attuned to. By nature of being able to use the force they're incredibly attuned to it. It makes perfect sense and we've seen it a ton of times throughout the franchise...

I've bolded some of the major issues I have with this reasoning. Just to let you know, I'll be heading off after this post, but I look forward to reading your reply and discussing this further. If I don't reply for a while, it's not because I've ignored you.

Darth Maul was an experience Sith Lord, capable of fighting a Jedi Knight and a talented Padawan at the same time, and nearly besting both. Comparing Rey's alleyway fighting to Maul's feels disingenuous. While it's established in previous films that the force indeed informs and responds to a Jedi's actions, and that the light sabre is the weapon of the force, this would simply put Rey on equal footing with Ren. We see Ren dominate the earlier part of their part. Rey's mastery of the force is clearly the deciding factor. And this is the issue I have. Rey has no reason to be that in-tuned to the force at this point in her story. Luke doesn't actually use the force to an extensive degree in A New Hope, certainly nothing nearly Rey's demonstrations. Being strong with the force helped Anakin pod-race, and helped Luke make a difficult shot under pressure. They weren't granted powers just by being sensitive to the force - that requires training, as we've seen. She may well turn out to be the most powerful force user in cannon, and that retroactively justifies this situation and addresses my concern. However, currently, her demonstrable use of the force vastly exceeds all expectations and established precedents, and undermines the established training requirements that episode 1, 2 and 3 emphasise greatly. This is why I have issue with it. Ren being distressed is overemphasised, I feel, given the actual events of the scene where he killed Han Solo, in combination with the visual story telling. That scene tells us Ren embraced the dark side. I'm happy to agree killing Solo certainly had a negative impact, though we may argue over the degree of that impact, but I don't think it justifies Rey's mastery of the force, which as I explained above I feel was the deciding factor in their dual.

 

[Subpar Spatula]

No. ANH is a perfect example of how to write a screenplay.

It would still be picked apart by the Internet just like how The Force Awakens is and how VIII and XI will be. Not many people pick apart A New Hope for its story because it's an old movie that didn't exist during the Internet.

 

[Squire]

I really dont get the conflict about her lightsaber skills. Girl is a beast with a staff, why wouldn't she be skilled with a lightsaber? Add a little force, Ren's injuries and lack of training, and it doesn't seem so far fetched to me.

This is the conclusion most people are going to arrive at (I know it did), but a few people are thrown, seemingly because this movie has no scene where someone breaks down the force to Rey like she's an idiot.

 

[Chococat]

The issue isn't Rey using the force - nor even that she beat Ren, at least inherently - it's the lack of time, effort and training we see. The simple question is: how can Rey perform a Jedi mind trick, perform telekinesis, and beat down a trained Sith with zero training in either the ways of the force, or a light sabre? The literally decades of training we see Anakin Skywalker undertake are almost meaningless in comparison if all it takes to achieve Rey's level of force mastery is some words of encouragement from a non-force user. This is the issue.

It is only an issue if you have a preconceived idea of what Rey and Ren's future journeys are going to be. TFA clearly is following the basic plot of a ANH but it is setting up it main protagonist and antagonist to take different paths then what we seen from Luke and Vadar.

Rey is being shown as a very gifted intuitive force user to save the audience from retreading Luke's 3 movie long arc to becoming a bad ass. It's going to be interesting to see how they write a competent Force user for the next two film and exactly what the source of her struggles in those are going to be. We assume she is going to be good, but what about Luke? Is he still dedicated to the Jedi way, or is he trying to forge a new neutral path?

Ren is also a very gift force users, but he obviously has struggled mentally trying to live up to the legends that are his uncle, mother, father and grandfather. We don't know what caused him to turn, but he is still hampered by whatever the source of his mental dilemma is. Without self control, he can't be a good Jedi or Sith despite his natural talent for both. He is hiding behind the legend of Darth Vader and Luke Skywalker while desperately trying to find answers that will unlock mental block. Will he ever be able calm and collected badass like Vader, forever damned to be a raging untamed Sith, or a possible redemption. Is it possible his character arc is going to go beyond this trilogy?

We don't know.

 

[Mandius]

It would still be picked apart by the Internet just like how The Force Awakens is and how VIII and XI will be. Not many people pick apart A New Hope for its story because it's an old movie that didn't exist during the Internet.

It is a part of pop culture. It didn't go away in the last 30 years. There are films that have whole scenes dedicated to their characters talking about the OT. People critique the plot convenience of ESB and the flaws of ROTJ to this day.

 

[The Librarian]

This is the conclusion most people are going to arrive at (I know it did), but a few people are thrown, seemingly because this movie has no scene where someone breaks down the force to Rey like she's an idiot.

Hell, the only reason Rey did what she did is because Maz told her what she should do.

 

[-tetsuo-]

Ok first of all please stop referring to the character as Naruto, it's cringeworthy and condescending. And no it wasn't right after he met Rey that he couldn't control his emotions, or did you forget these moments.
-Kills an old man in cold blood for not telling him what he wants to know
-Completely loses it when told that the Droid escaped from his men by stealing a freighter
-Proceeds to lose it even more after finding out that a girl was with them
All of these moments happen before he meets Rey. They show that his emotions are unstable, he is even able to use the force after directly meeting Rey, it's when it's shown that she's actually force sensitive, able to resist and reverse his own technique on him that he begins to show more doubt, it becomes the pivotal moment in his character arc. He doesn't even command a greater show of the force than Vader did, Vader was almost always composed and knew when to tap into the dark side to become empowered, blocked blasts with his bare hands, and obviously had a much more complete lightsaber.

We are talking about different things. I am talking about this notion that Ren is built up as some kind of fraud for the entire movie, that he was never competent all along. It is a completely silly notion because the movie is simply not written or directed that way. I mentioned the wall slashing scene and the scene with Vader's mask, and no, that does not spell out that he is a fronting force user who can barely control his abilities lol.

Until he meets Rey, he is absolutely shown as an intimidating figure even going as far as to showcase an ability not yet seen by any jedi or sith the first time scene we see him in. They explain that he was trained by Luke and that he destroyed the school after turning. It is mentioned how is the leader of the Knights of Ren. They even went out of the way to give him ANOTHER scene where he is completely in command against Rey as he chased her through the woods, effortlessly swatting away her attacks before kidnapping her.

The turn is extremely too hard, and too fast. It is done poorly, for both characters. JJ just seemed to rush it, like they were running out of time or something.

And the blaster block was in Empire. I am talking strictly A New Hope.

 

[plasmawave]

It's almost like he's so distressed and wounded that he has trouble using the force, if only they would've shown this in some way, like maybe him struggling to use a force power like force pull, for something important that he wants. It's called context and by god so many people are ignoring it.

Except he was winning the fight til her force "awakened"? lol
There was absolutely nothing in the movie that suggested he was mentally distressed during that fight. Nothing.

 

[Ashhong]

This is the conclusion most people are going to arrive at (I know it did), but a few people are thrown, seemingly because this movie has no scene where someone breaks down the force to Rey like she's an idiot.

You have to really be WANTING to see the flaws of the movie to not come to a logical conclusion such as this. It's really unfortunate really. Was her force powers convenient? Maybe. Were they impossible? No.

Except he was winning the fight til her force "awakened"? lol
There was absolutely nothing in the movie that suggested he was mentally distressed during that fight. Nothing.

What about the constant screaming out in pain as he slammed into his wound while his blood dripped onto the snow? You don't think pain could make someone mentally distressed? Maybe he was winning, but adrenaline can wear off and pain can become unbearable in an instant. So it's not crazy to assume that at that moment, he wasn't prepared to defend her force-filled attack.

 

[Squire]

Except he was winning the fight til her force "awakened"? lol
There was absolutely nothing in the movie that suggested he was mentally distressed during that fight. Nothing.

You should really go see the film, it's great. I won't spoil it for you.

 

[Jarmel]

Abrams wanted that Greatest Mixtape of All Time. He wanted all those awesome elements like Han, Boba, a Death Star and by extension an aerial battle, and a lightsaber battle. He wanted it all in this one film and as a result, shit got crunched. The X-Wing stuff is half-assed, Phasma probably shouldn't even be in this film, the Han antics feel somewhat out of place, and Rey's Force power development got sped up because Abrams wanted a kickass lightsaber battle at the end.

He tried to fit too much into the film and things had to give way.

 

[Veelk]

Is there anything in the novel about Ren's mental state at the end? It seems like his mind would probably be the clearest in the entire film at that point. He's gotten rid of the internal struggle in his heart by killing Han, so all that should be left is the Darkside.

This is a baffling and untrue perspective on how emotional turmoil works.

Ren had difficulties committing to the Dark Side because he cared about his father inside. The fact that he was able to kill him doesn't mean the dark side is all that's left. All it did was heighten his distress because, whodathunk, killing your own father who you love is kind of a traumatizing thing to do. And you shouldn't need "And thus, Kylo Ren was in emotional turmoil" spelled out for you. It's obvious in his lack of focus and facial expression. He doesn't look like he accomplished something great, he looks emotionally numb and confused and still scared. He gets hit by Chewy's blast, even though he was able to stop a surprise attack before in the beginning of the movie. He is so unfocused that Finn actually manages to get a hit on him even though he couldn't against a storm trooper. And when he's trying to convince Rey to joing, he isn't Vadering it up "Join me and together we shall rule". Listen to his voice and the desperation in it. He's pleading with her, because they relate to each other in seeing Han as a father figure, and he needs her to fall to the dark side like he did. Because that's validation, and he craves it because he needs to be told that he made the right call.

If you have conflicts about killing a loved one, and then you kill them, those conflicts don't disappear. If anything, it exasperates them. I don't even understand how anyone could think that.

 

[Subpar Spatula]

It is a part of pop culture. It didn't go away in the last 30 years. There are films that have whole scenes dedicated to their characters talking about the OT. People critique the plot convenience of ESB and the flaws of ROTJ to this day.

Of course but newer movies - especially popular ones - are put through the microscope by a lot and they all want to say their piece. It's why you don't see this much controversy with The Assassin or Carol. A New Hope wouldn't stand a chance if released today. Hamil's acting would get a Raspberry Award.

 

[plasmawave]

You should really go see the film, it's great. I won't spoil it for you.

Maybe you should too.

 

[Mandius]

Except he was winning the fight til her force "awakened"? lol
There was absolutely nothing in the movie that suggested he was mentally distressed during that fight. Nothing.

Shouldn't he have been stronger at that point? Although the film doesn't really explore the force in any meaningful way, the series has shown that being emotional and angry is beneficial to those using the darkside of the force.

 

[Aselith]

Abrams wanted that Greatest Mixtape of All Time. He wanted all those awesome elements like Han, Boba, a Death Star and by extension an aerial battle, and a lightsaber battle. He wanted it all in this one film and as a result, shit got crunched. The X-Wing stuff is half-assed, Phasma probably shouldn't even be in this film, the Han antics feel somewhat out of place, and Rey's Force power development got sped up because Abrams wanted a kickass lightsaber battle at the end.

He tried to fit too much into the film and things had to give way.

And he created a vey good movie with minor niggles like mary sue accusations being leveled at it.

 

[Crossing Eden]

I've bolded some of the major issues I have with this reasoning. Just to let you know, I'll be heading off after this post, but I look forward to reading your reply and discussing this further. If I don't reply for a while, it's not because I've ignored you.

Darth Maul was an experience Sith Lord, capable of fighting a Jedi Knight and a talented Padawan at the same time, and nearly besting both. Comparing Rey's alleyway fighting to Maul's feels disingenuous. While it's established in previous films that the force indeed informs and responds to a Jedi's actions, and that the light sabre is the weapon of the force, this would simply put Rey on equal footing with Ren. We see Ren dominate the earlier part of their part. Rey's mastery of the force is clearly the deciding factor. And this is the issue I have. Rey has no reason to be that in-tuned to the force at this point in her story. Luke doesn't actually use the force to an extensive degree in A New Hope, certainly nothing nearly Rey's demonstrations. Being strong with the force helped Anakin pod-race, and helped Luke make a difficult shot under pressure. They weren't granted powers just by being sensitive to the force - that requires training, as we've seen. She may well turn out to be the most powerful force user in cannon, and that retroactively justifies this situation and addresses my concern. However, currently, her demonstrable use of the force vastly exceeds all expectations and established precedents, and undermines the established training requirements that episode 1, 2 and 3 emphasise greatly. This is why I have issue with it. Ren being distressed is overemphasised, I feel, given the actual events of the scene where he killed Han Solo, in combination with the visual story telling. That scene tells us Ren embraced the dark side. I'm happy to agree killing Solo certainly had a negative impact, though we may argue over the degree of that impact, but I don't think it justifies Rey's mastery of the force, which as I explained above I feel was the deciding factor in their dual.

It's too farfetched to assume that just because she had a staff means that she couldn't lose a lightsaber, especially considering that her fighting style with the saber is reminiscent of her experience with the staff. Luke and Anakin were granted powers just by having the force guide them. That is a power in and of itself. If you were expecting her to be just as bad as Luke who lived in a vastly childhood and growing situation and actively didn't let the force "flow through him" multiple times. Rey is not afraid of the force, she's a full believer and has it confirmed for her. Her powers make sense in the context of the film despite not knowing her direct origin but knowing that she's obviously force sensitive.

Except he was winning the fight til her force "awakened"? lol
There was absolutely nothing in the movie that suggested he was mentally distressed during that fight. Nothing.

You mean besides having a cold sweat during the entire thing(they're in the snow and he's sweating profusely and can barely speak clearly), recklessly swinging instead of being in tune with the force like other Jedi/Sith, and not being able to use the force to pull a lightsaber. All of those things showcase that he is distressed. Oh and the part where he just killed his father. This isn't equivalent to Anakin slicing the hand off of Mace who is the biggest dissenter against him, he was shown as conflicted about his family multiple times and couldn't do it by himself.

 

[Mandius]

Of course but newer movies - especially popular ones - are put through the microscope by a lot and they all want to say their piece. It's why you don't see this much controversy with The Assassin or Carol. A New Hope wouldn't stand a chance if released today. Hamil's acting would get a Raspberry Award.

Stand a chance, based on what criteria? SFX or filmmaking techniques? Of course those have changed.

In terms of character development and plot, ANH is rock solid.

 

[zethren]

I honestly think that anyone who watched the movie and paid attention to Rey (and her actions and reactions), and also has paid attention in previous films to what the Force actually is and what it actually does (particularly considering she is sensitive to it), would not call her a Mary Sue.

Luke is the best comparison we have to her, but even she had a much tougher childhood relying on only herself to get by. She is physically fit and powerful as evidenced by her first scene in the entire movie, as a scavenger who climbs and repels probably daily. As a scavenger she is resourceful, and has a knowledge of technology and how it works. She also has to stick up for herself against larger people who would try to take advantage of her (also as evidenced in the movie), so she carries a weapon and knows how to defend herself.

She clearly has heard of Luke and the Jedi and the legends, so tapping into the Force is not a foreign concept to her. Not only that, but she was just told by a 1000+ year old Maz Kanata that the Force is calling out to her.

Everything that she does and is has a clear reason for why and how she can do it, and its all there in the movie. Seriously, it can't be any more clear.

Rey is a great character, and Daisy nailed it. One of my instant favorite characters in Star Wars, and it's a universe I've held dear for over 20 years.

Also, this Max Landis is ridiculous.

 

[Zabka]

Shouldn't he have been stronger at that point? Although the film doesn't really explore the force in any meaningful way, the series has shown that being emotional and angry is beneficial to those using the darkside of the force.

Being emotional and angry is why Anakin lost even though he's the god damn Jedi Messiah.

 

[plasmawave]

Being emotional and angry is why Anakin lost even though he's the god damn Jedi Messiah.

But also emotional and angry Luke almost beat Darth Vader in 6.

 

[Mandius]

Being emotional and angry is why Anakin lost even though he's the god damn Jedi Messiah.

The high ground is Darth Plagueis

But also emotional and angry Luke almost beat Darth Vader in 6.

I would say he did beat Vader.

 

[Arrowgigantic]

the series has shown that being emotional and angry is beneficial to those using the darkside of the force.

Correction, the series has shown that is what darkside force users believe.

 

[Mandius]

Correction, the series has shown that is what darkside force users believe.

Luke as a rage monster dropped Vader.

 

[zethren]

But also emotional and angry Luke almost beat Darth Vader in 6.

Luke has always straddled that line though, you know? Yoda sensed the impatience in him. He's always been a bit like his father. He channeled anger and emotion for power in that fight for sure, but ultimately overcame it in that moment and chose to throw down his weapon instead of kill his father.

Edit: Luke's always been A LOT like his father. Not just a bit.

 

[plasmawave]

It's too farfetched to assume that just because she had a staff means that she couldn't lose a lightsaber, especially considering that her fighting style with the saber is reminiscent of her experience with the staff. Luke and Anakin were granted powers just by having the force guide them. That is a power in and of itself. If you were expecting her to be just as bad as Luke who lived in a vastly childhood and growing situation and actively didn't let the force "flow through him" multiple times. Rey is not afraid of the force, she's a full believer and has it confirmed for her. Her powers make sense in the context of the film despite not knowing her direct origin but knowing that she's obviously force sensitive.


You mean besides having a cold sweat during the entire thing(they're in the snow and he's sweating profusely and can barely speak clearly), recklessly swinging instead of being in tune with the force like other Jedi/Sith, and not being able to use the force to pull a lightsaber. All of those things showcase that he is distressed. Oh and the part where he just killed his father. This isn't equivalent to Anakin slicing the hand off of Mace who is the biggest dissenter against him, he was shown as conflicted about his family multiple times and couldn't do it by himself.

You know who else also had a cold sweat? Finn and Rey.

 

[Crossing Eden]

Shouldn't he have been stronger at that point? Although the film doesn't really explore the force in any meaningful way, the series has shown that being emotional and angry is beneficial to those using the darkside of the force.

The opposite. Everytime Sith or Jedi rely solely on emotion and absolutely no type of discipline they lose. Everytime.

You know who else also had a cold sweat? Finn and Rey.

Finn lost because he was just a stormtrooper who had a lightsaber, Rey would've lost if she had given in to fear instead of being given a chance to calm herself and become one with the force. She was also nowhere near as wounded.

 

[Sojgat]

Except he was winning the fight til her force "awakened"? lol
There was absolutely nothing in the movie that suggested he was mentally distressed during that fight. Nothing.

His state of mind was clearly communicated on screen.

Do the characters really need to speak all their emotions and motivations out loud like in a Christopher Nolan movie?

 

[Daingurse]

Honestly just saw Rey as just extremely confident, and VERY strong with the Force. I think Skywalker blood flows through her veins, so her taking out a fucked up Kylo Ren wasn't too hard to accept, A Kylo Ren that just killed his father and tanked a bowcaster bolt. Dude is trying to keep himself alert by beating his fucking wound, while he's bleeding out! But goddamn did I love Kylo Ren, most compelling character in the movie.

But yeah Rey didn't come across a Mary Sue. She was very competent, but not near perfect enough to classify as a Mary Sue. Didn't find her to be unbelievable in any fashion that took me out of the movie. Honestly thought she just came across as a badass early on, when she beat the shit outta those guys with the staff and charged Finn hahaha. Just a cool skilled character, who is strong as fuck with the Force.

 

[zethren]

You know who else also had a cold sweat? Finn and Rey.

True, but Ren was also very badly wounded.

And absolutely distressed as well, as shown by his general demeanor in that fight. He was nothing like his depiction at the beginning of the film. "Traitor!" Was screamed out at Finn with a very upset tone. He was not calm, not at all.

 

[plasmawave]

His state of mind was clearly communicated on screen.

Do the characters really need to speak all their emotions and motivations out loud like in a Christopher Nolan movie?

And I can just as easily say that Ren had fully embraced the dark side and was completely himself in that battle.

True, but Ren was also very badly wounded.

Badly wounded but beat Finn and almost had Rey too.

 

[Arrowgigantic]

Luke as a rage monster dropped Vader.

So he used the dark side to defeat Vader? Are you sure about that?

 

[Jarmel]

This is a baffling and untrue perspective on how emotional turmoil works.

Ren had difficulties committing to the Dark Side because he cared about his father inside. The fact that he was able to kill him doesn't mean the dark side is all that's left. All it did was heighten his distress because, whodathunk, killing your own father who you love is kind of a traumatizing thing to do. And you shouldn't need "And thus, Kylo Ren was in emotional turmoil" spelled out for you. It's obvious in his lack of focus and facial expression. He doesn't look like he accomplished something great, he looks emotionally numb and confused and still scared. He gets hit by Chewy's blast, even though he was able to stop a surprise attack before in the beginning of the movie. He is so unfocused that Finn actually manages to get a hit on him even though he couldn't against a storm trooper. And when he's trying to convince Rey to joing, he isn't Vadering it up "Join me and together we shall rule". Listen to his voice and the desperation in it. He's pleading with her, because they relate to each other in seeing Han as a father figure, and he needs her to fall to the dark side like he did. Because that's validation, and he craves it because he needs to be told that he made the right call.

If you have conflicts about killing a loved one, and then you kill them, those conflicts don't disappear. I don't even understand how anyone could think that.

The scene with the sun literally going out and all that's left on Ren's face is red, is symbolic of him giving himself up to the Darkside. The visual language in that scene demonstrates that he had indeed made up his mind, hence him tightening his grip on his lightsaber. The visual language of the film makes it clear that he's all in at that point.

Now I guess you can say that he was distracted since he didn't stop Chewie's uber blaster shot but considering he tracked and outraced Finn and Rey, his mental state wasn't that fucked up. Not to mention he really wanted to kill Finn at that point. Note how the film has Finn and Ren staring at each other after Han gets saber'd.

Finn has had extensive melee training so it's not particularly unbelievable that he could get a hit on Ren. Ren at the end did have orders to bring her to Snoke, which is what he was trying to do. Your explanation of Ren wanting validation is perfectly plausible but the bridge scene establishes that he's decided which road he's going to go down.

 

[NotTheGuyYouKill]

I did really like just how fucked up Ren was by the end there.

Gutshot, stabbed, having a psychotic breakdown, slashed in the face, just killed his dad and freaking out.

Was great at just how messed up he was.

 

[Jarmel]

So he used the dark side to defeat Vader? Are you sure about that?

He totally did.

 

[Crossing Eden]

And I can just as easily say that Ren had fully embraced the dark side and was completely himself in that battle.

Kylo Ren was clearly conflicted in that scene, listen to the way he talks compared to how he talks in other scenes, he talks just like he did when confronted by his father, his voice is cracking and he's completely sure of himself. Literally the complete opposite of what a sith lord is supposed to be like. His eyes aren't even yellow like typical sith lords.

I did really like just how fucked up Ren was by the end there.

Gutshot, stabbed, having a psychotic breakdown, slashed in the face, just killed his dad and freaking out.

Was great at just how messed up he was.

Exaclty, people are missing the entire point and pretending like he was completely fine like in Disney Infinity.

 

[zethren]

Badly wounded but beat Finn and almost had Rey too.

And? I'm not sure what that's supposed to prove.

He was technically better trained in lightsaber dueling. Though his wound and state of mind hindered him. This is all very clear in the film and completely reasonable.

 

[NotTheGuyYouKill]

This is a baffling and untrue perspective on how emotional turmoil works.

Ren had difficulties committing to the Dark Side because he cared about his father inside. The fact that he was able to kill him doesn't mean the dark side is all that's left. All it did was heighten his distress because, whodathunk, killing your own father who you love is kind of a traumatizing thing to do. And you shouldn't need "And thus, Kylo Ren was in emotional turmoil" spelled out for you. It's obvious in his lack of focus and facial expression. He doesn't look like he accomplished something great, he looks emotionally numb and confused and still scared. He gets hit by Chewy's blast, even though he was able to stop a surprise attack before in the beginning of the movie. He is so unfocused that Finn actually manages to get a hit on him even though he couldn't against a storm trooper. And when he's trying to convince Rey to joing, he isn't Vadering it up "Join me and together we shall rule". Listen to his voice and the desperation in it. He's pleading with her, because they relate to each other in seeing Han as a father figure, and he needs her to fall to the dark side like he did. Because that's validation, and he craves it because he needs to be told that he made the right call.

If you have conflicts about killing a loved one, and then you kill them, those conflicts don't disappear. If anything, it exasperates them. I don't even understand how anyone could think that.

What do you think of the small smile thing he gives Han before Han touches his face? Genuine or forced?

 

[Arrowgigantic]

He totally did.

What, and then he just turned himself back and told the emperor he wasn't gonna do shit?

 

[jetjevons]

Rey's mastery of the force is clearly the deciding factor. And this is the issue I have. Rey has no reason to be that in-tuned to the force at this point in her story. Luke doesn't actually use the force to an extensive degree in A New Hope, certainly nothing nearly Rey's demonstrations. Being strong with the force helped Anakin pod-race, and helped Luke make a difficult shot under pressure.

Being strong with the force did A LOT more than help Anakin pod-race, even in EP 1. Are we forgetting the space battle? Maybe Rey is the new Anakin, not the new Luke.

 

[Jarmel]

What, and then he just turned himself back and told the emperor he wasn't gonna do shit?

Yep. That was the whole point of the throne room fight in that he tapped into the Darkside to beat the everlasting shit out of Vader but contemplated and withdrew back from that edge.

The emperor then made him ride the lightning.

 

[Daingurse]

What do you think of the small smile thing he gives Han before Han touches his face? Genuine or forced?

Probably genuine. Kylo is a conflicted dude. Wouldn't surprise me if he was experiencing both regret and relief, after killing his father.

Being strong with the force did A LOT more than help Anakin pod-race, even in EP 1. Are we forgetting the space battle? Maybe Rey is the new Anakin, not the new Luke.

I bet she's he got midichlorian count through the roof! Honestly does feel like that Anakin shit. Rey is going to be a monster of a Jedi.

 

[Beast Legacy]

And I can just as easily say that Ren had fully embraced the dark side and was completely himself in that battle.

From the novelization after killing Han:

"Following through on the act ought to have made him stronger, a part of him believed. Instead, he found himself weakened."

Now, I wouldn't exactly hold the novel as gospel of course, but it's certainly something to think about in addition to all the evidence on-screen.

 

[zethren]

What, and then he just turned himself back and told the emperor he wasn't gonna do shit?

Yep. Luke has always walked the line between the light and the dark side. He's very much his father's son, but the point is that he made the choice NOT to kill his father. He stood down.

Palpatine wanted this to happen, knew it would happen. But banked on Luke going full darkside and killing Vader just as Anakin did similarly years before.