Support NeoGAF

[The One and Done™]

Watching over the Luke lightsaber training, it's all right there.

Obi-Wan: Remember, a Jedi can feel the Force flowing through him.
Luke: You mean it controls your actions?
Obi-Wan: Partially, but it also obeys your commands.

Couple that with all the evidence of Ren being severely weakened both physically and emotionally (along with him not wanting to kill Rey in the first place) and it's pretty obvious why Rey "won" the final fight. Still ridiculous that it needs a justification but everything about it is plausible within the film's universe. Ren also wanted a couple of things from her: the rest of the map to Luke, secrets buried within her mind and for her to outright fall to the Dark Side as his apprentice. Perhaps maim and incapacitate Rey, but not kill her.

As for her knowing about the Jedi mind trick? The film shows that the tales of the old films, Jedi, the Sith, etc., have all become legend. Upon meeting Finn and learning BB has a map to Luke Skywalker, Rey immediately knows who he is even as a myth. So when Han later confirms that the myths are true ("All of it"), you're damn right she is going to try the Jedi mind trick. It's not as if it's some secret technique; in RotJ Jabba laughs at Luke's attempt at the Jedi mind trick so it's clearly established as a known ability for Force users.

Grade A top choice post right here.

The hypocrisy of complaints on this movie are astonishing.

This movie is one of the best SW movies ever and people are bitching. Grow up. The prequels happened and people said, "THEY'RE NOTHING LIKE THE ORIGINALS!" Now this movie comes out and people go, "IT'S TOO MUCH LIKE THE ORIGINAL!" While in the same breath say, "THAT'S DIFFERENT THAN THE ORIGINALS!"

Then the mental gymnastics that take place so they can feel validated in their thought process is even more hilarious in its hypocrisy.

Anyways, good post Beast

 

[Mariolee]

Just watched the movie again. Rey is best Star Wars character, everyone else is just salty she's the best yo

 

[Morrigan Stark]

Ummmmm literally half of this movie was dedicated to showing that he's not the masterful badass he wishes to be. That's why he;s being called back to finish his training.

He's raw potential damaged significantly by immaturity and out of control emotions.

Just to give more evidence that it was the emotional state of Kylo leading to him becoming less in tune with the force that caused the loss: Compare this to Dooku who was poisoned, blinded, but used the force in a fight against three nearly invisible dark jedi and won. Dude did almost exactly what Rey did.

lol, you guys... you do realize you're essentially explaining why I don't like Kylo Ren right?
"He's not the masterful badass he wishes to be", and other villains of the franchise, like even prequels villains like Dooku being far more badass, are exactly why I think Kylo Ren sucks. He's too weak and too lame. He doesn't even look troubled and conflicted, he looks emo and petulant.

Given that Ren knows Finn's designation, and Finn was on what was probably a pretty selective ground operation on Jakku to help Ren recover the map, I figure he was a pretty elite Stormtrooper.

Elite? It was obviously his first mission no?

While in the same breath say, "THAT'S DIFFERENT THAN THE ORIGINALS!"

Said no one ever?

Anyway, you need to calm down. Some people are critical of the new Star Wars movie. That's okay, you know.

 

[Crossing Eden]

Wait I thought he trained with Luke growing up and then massacred that whole school or whatever? Did I totally misunderstand that? I mean, I figured he was pretty damn skilled in lightsaber combat and use of the force based on what the movie was presenting :/ Maybe this is the excuse I need to go see it again

I also totally understand the fact that being distressed can be a tremendous handicap in a fight. You see it all the time in movies, t.v. shows, cartoons, etc. where the bad guy is too worked up and loses. It just seemed to me that in that final encounter, even with the various handicaps, Ren should have still outclassed both of his opponents. But like you said maybe the Force + Clarity of mind is just THAT powerful. Like I said I'm not a big Star Wars guy so maybe this is known and I'm just out of the loop.

I like how I didn't even think about any of this after the movie until I saw this thread It truly is a minor detail to me, but I like chatting about the movie!

He was but he didn't do it single handedly. He had helped from the other knights of Ren. When he's calm he puts up a front and is quite good with the force and lightsaber combat. With the force being distressed and unfocused is a major handicap and calming yourself in the final moments can decide between life and death. To truly become powerful with the force you need to calm yourself. The series is full of moments where clarity is shown to be the key almost exactly the way it happens to Rey.

lol, you guys... you do realize you're essentially explaining why I don't like Kylo Ren right?
"He's not the masterful badass he wishes to be", and other villains of the franchise, like even prequels villains like Dooku being far more badass, are exactly why I think Kylo Ren sucks. He's too weak and too lame. He doesn't even look troubled and conflicted, he looks emo and petulant

Oh, well at least you know the point of the character is to grow into a badass sith lord. I loved the actor playing the guy. They even pulled off a part that was equal parts intimidating and funny.

I can't imagine any other actor pulling this role off, or any of the roles actually.

 

[BTM]

The wait for Episode VIII is going to be excruciating. Can't wait for our weekly Star Wars threads for the next year and a half.

Anyways, for what it's worth, I'm on #TeamNotMarySue

 

[LosDaddie]

Fantastic post which has convinced me that Mary Sue is a completely shitty term. However I still disagree that Rey isn't an unstoppable juggernaut that solves almost all of the problems she faces with zero help whatsoever.

When escaping in the Falcon, Finn couldn't shoot for shit. Just like how he couldn't shoot for shit when escaping with Poe. The gun itself actually locks up and it's Rey's somehow fantastical flying in a vehicle she's never flown before (seems she's never piloted a ship before ever anyways) which dead centers the guns on the chasing TIE fighter for Finn to shoot.

I understand and can buy all the mechanical know how from her scavenging, but I cannot buy her somehow uncanny piloting skills when she's never flown before or how she somehow learns how to use the Force from Kylo as if she's Mega Man stealing his powers. There's zero mention or showing of the mind trick at all in the film, yet she somehow knows about it and is able to do it completely on the spot? Yeah no.

As for the battle, even a gravely wounded Kylo, a Skywalker taught by Luke and Snoak themselves, should lose to someone who's never touched a lightsabre up until that very moment.

Her progression's just way too convenient to move the plot along to really buy her struggle at all. She's more like Neo from The Matrix trilogy only she skipped the first 3/4ths of the film and started at the lobby scene and was flying by the time she met Kylo in the forest.

There are many other problems I had with the film, but since this is more of a response to the OP I thought I'd try to articulate a proper response. The film's still pretty great overall and all of this are just minor flaws that only become glaring after not seeing the film for a few days. One I watch it again I'll most likely forget about all this as it's truly a joy to watch. Overall it's about as solid as Return of The Jedi and blows the prequels away easily.

This is where I'm at. I really don't care for the term "Mary Sue", but like you said, Rey is shown to be unstoppable/perfect and solves all the problems with little to no help.

I don't really buy her being a scavenger = being a skilled mechanic. Being able to take apart machinery doesn't mean you know how it all works together without some training. Your Neo analogy is pretty good. TFA being sci-fi fantasy, it all just works.

But yeah, I'm with you on the movie being a joy to watch. I'll probably take the daughter to see it again in real IMAX before it leaves the format.

 

[Brakke]

So the "More people are conflicted about it, therefore it must be poorly executed" is a bad line of reasoning.

Eh. If we ask JJ Abrams, I'm pretty sure he'll say that he cares about having created something that empirically does communicate the thing he intended to communicate. Lucas had certain things he wanted to accomplish with the prequels and he didn't accomplish them Full Stop. He wanted people to take away certain things but they took away different things. He's not psyched about that.

I definitely don't want to play a majority game either. Some humans are just bad at reading. Or just missed things or are prejudiced in some way. I'm not one of those people. My claim is small: it's reasonable to be intellectually dissatisfied by how this movie executed some things, especially with regard to Rey and double-especially with regard to the fight in the forest. And I see lots of people so dissatisfied.

 

[Squire]

The wait for Episode VIII is going to be excruciating. Can't wait for our weekly Star Wars threads for the next year and a half.

Anyways, for what it's worth, I'm on #TeamNotMarySue

The only people on the opposite side are an Internet minority, thankfully.

 

[zethren]

Anyway, you need to calm down. Some people are critical of the new Star Wars movie. That's okay, you know.

Some people are critical and that's totally okay, as you said. But others are critical in ways that flat out ignore, or don't pay attention to, details and story elements that are in place in this film and others in the series.

 

[ElBoxyBrown]

lol, you guys... you do realize you're essentially explaining why I don't like Kylo Ren right?
"He's not the masterful badass he wishes to be", and other villains of the franchise, like even prequels villains like Dooku being far more badass, are exactly why I think Kylo Ren sucks. He's too weak and too lame. He doesn't even look troubled and conflicted, he looks emo and petulant.

His face and body is now scarred, he killed his daddy, and now he knows his competition. Ren has nowhere to go but up at this point and he's about to complete his training so I wouldn't be surprised if we get a whole new less angsty Kylo Ren in the future movies. This ain't even his final form. He's like Frieza in his first form.

 

[EviLore]

It's Finn losing to that random stormtrooper that sets him way back. It should have been Phasma, not only for her character, but his.

Agreed on that. Or, at the very least, don't have him closing his eyes waiting to be taken out by the coup de grace at the end, so that it isn't implied that he had given up and would have died for sure if not for the last-second save. Felt uncharacteristic given his clarity of purpose against all odds on the Rey rescue mission, and didn't really gel with how things later played out against Kylo, either.

Still, I mean, first time using a lightsaber, no magic force powers guiding your hand...has to be pretty unnerving using your new laser sword that can randomly lop your arm off with one false move. His opponent appeared to be a melee specialist and probably a combat veteran (if you're willing to call out "TRAITOR!" and confidently duel someone in the middle of a raging battle...), but throwing Phasma in there instead would've done more to justify the L and set up a future rivalry than trash compactor comic relief.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

Some people are critical and that's totally okay, as you said. But others are critical in ways that flat out ignore, or don't pay attention to, details and story elements that are in place in this film and others in the series.

Or they interpret it differently. And even if someone missed a detail or two from the movie, his tone was ridiculously angry. I mean c'mon, it's Star Wars.

His face and body is now scarred, he killed his daddy, and now he knows his competition. Ren has nowhere to go but up at this point and he's about to complete his training so I wouldn't be surprised if we get a whole new less angsty Kylo Ren in the future movies. This ain't even his final form.

I hope so!

Spoiler

I also hope Ep8 will not be a total shameless rehash of Empire Strikes Back, because that legit bugged me about Ep7.

 

[The One and Done™]

People seem to have missed the boat on who Kylo Ren is and his purpose in the film. Do complainers realize he is trying his best to be like Vader and is terrified at the possibility that he won't live up to it. People love to throw around the word Emo not understanding what the hell that means. Just because a white guy with dark hair wearing black gets upset doesn't make them emo.

There are a ton of layers to Ren and it's so obvious that there are. People love to worship Vader while not realizing that he had 3 movies and several books to solididy his mythos. If you go back to ANH you realize that, without any other movies, the Vader character wasn't very layered. It wasn't until Empire that he became the Vader we all embraced.

People need to take a step back, breathe, and allow this saga to play out.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

People seem to have missed the boat on who Kylo Ren is and his purpose in the film. Do complainers realize he is trying his best to be like Vader and is terrified at the possibility that he won't live up to it. People love to throw around the word Emo not understanding what the hell that means. Just because a white guy with dark hair wearing black gets upset doesn't make them emo.

And just because he's as intended doesn't mean he's not lame. Him being a wanna-be Vader is exactly why I think he sucks.

People need to take a step back, breathe

lol

 

[excelsiorlef]

lol, you guys... you do realize you're essentially explaining why I don't like Kylo Ren right?
"He's not the masterful badass he wishes to be", and other villains of the franchise, like even prequels villains like Dooku being far more badass, are exactly why I think Kylo Ren sucks. He's too weak and too lame. He doesn't even look troubled and conflicted, he looks emo and petulant.

Your post implied that him looking inept was bad writing because it didn't make him badass, when the whole point is that he isn't badass. That was intentional

Now that you don't like the fact that he's intentionally written to not be badass is entirely different and not something I can really argue because that comes down to taste, though I will say wanting to be be essentially as badass as ever other villain is kinda boring but that's my opinion.

 

[Astral Dog]

Rey is the best new character in the movie, Mary Sue or not, then BB 8. Ren, Finn , Han Solo, Chewie, Anakins Beard the ugly Yoda and finally Leia, its like she wanted to die on the movie but was not allowed.

 

[The One and Done™]

And just because he's as intended doesn't mean he's not lame. Him being a wanna-be Vader is exactly why I think he sucks.


lol

Well at least you realize it's not due to acting or writing. He was played out as intended in this film. I disagree with you taste hear though as the is really no true alternative that would have been rightfully satisfying on all fronts.

 

[Astral Dog]

People seem to have missed the boat on who Kylo Ren is and his purpose in the film. Do complainers realize he is trying his best to be like Vader and is terrified at the possibility that he won't live up to it. People love to throw around the word Emo not understanding what the hell that means. Just because a white guy with dark hair wearing black gets upset doesn't make them emo.

There are a ton of layers to Ren and it's so obvious that there are. People love to worship Vader while not realizing that he had 3 movies and several books to solididy his mythos. If you go back to ANH you realize that, without any other movies, the Vader character wasn't very layered. It wasn't until Empire that he became the Vader we all embraced.

People need to take a step back, breathe, and allow this saga to play out.

Ren will become Vader 2.0 in the next movie, killing his generals for failing, never removing his mask, will kill Luke at the end, the next film will probably be a few years after.

 

[Brakke]

finally Leia, its like she wanted to die on the movie but was not allowed.

How do you mean? You think Carrie Fisher didn't care about the movie or you think Leia the character doesn't care about living any more? Or something else?

 

[Morrigan Stark]

Your post implied that him looking inept was bad writing because it didn't make him badass, when the whole point is that he isn't badass. That was intentional

I don't recall ever bringing up bad writing except for other unrelated things (like the super-convenient chasm that appeared at the super convenient time and place). That said, I do feel the villains are very, very underwhelming in that movie, and Kylo Ren was also disappointing because he starts out as a seemingly scary mofo and turns out to be a whiny malformed Jon Snow with daddy issues who keeps screwing up.

Now that you don't like the fact that he's intentionally written to not be badass is entirely different and not something I can really argue because that comes down to taste, though I will say wanting to be be essentially as badass as ever other villain is kinda boring but that's my opinion.

It's Star Wars. I don't think it's strange to want larger-than-life villains that are actually cool in a Star Wars movie. There's no reason a badass villain can't be interesting or have nuances either.

 

[excelsiorlef]

Well at least you realize it's not due to acting or writing. He was played out as intended in this film. I disagree with you taste hear though as the is really no true alternative that would have been rightfully satisfying on all fronts.

It's interesting because for me Kylo became like 100% more interesting when he shed most of what was making him Vader stand in #1 and Darth Maul of the sequel trilogy.

When it became clear that he wasn't going to be just some fucking badass sith guy, he instantly became more interesting, Loved that he dropped the mask.

 

[Astral Dog]

How do you mean? You think Carrie Fisher didn't care about the movie or you think Leia the character doesn't care about living any more? Or something else?

both, its like she was suffering.

 

[Speely]

This is the best TFA thread. Thank you.

People seem to have missed the boat on who Kylo Ren is and his purpose in the film. Do complainers realize he is trying his best to be like Vader and is terrified at the possibility that he won't live up to it. People love to throw around the word Emo not understanding what the hell that means. Just because a white guy with dark hair wearing black gets upset doesn't make them emo.

There are a ton of layers to Ren and it's so obvious that there are. People love to worship Vader while not realizing that he had 3 movies and several books to solididy his mythos. If you go back to ANH you realize that, without any other movies, the Vader character wasn't very layered. It wasn't until Empire that he became the Vader we all embraced.

People need to take a step back, breathe, and allow this saga to play out.

Agreed. Kylo is like the clown-mirrored version of a protagonist in a hero myth. He is beginning just as small and flawed and has just as much development via conflict ahead of him.

I find that sort of telling. I think the story is going to be VERY steeped in his development. I also expect an inverse sort of arc from Rey.

Oh, Kylo Solo Ren Han... Whatever are you going to do about Reia? Uh, I mean Rey, sorry.

 

[excelsiorlef]

I don't recall ever bringing up bad writing except for other unrelated things (like the super-convenient chasm that appeared at the super convenient time and place). That said, I do feel the villains are very, very underwhelming in that movie, and Kylo Ren was also disappointing because he starts out as a seemingly scary mofo and turns out to be a whiny malformed Jon Snow with daddy issues who keeps screwing up.

Literally the post you were replying to when you made your initial comment I quoted was talking about the writing of the final battle.

And by super convenient chasm you mean the planet starting to blow up right?

 

[BOND CO STOOGE]

Agreed on that. Or, at the very least, don't have him closing his eyes waiting to be taken out by the coup de grace at the end, so that it isn't implied that he had given up and would have died for sure if not for the last-second save. Felt uncharacteristic given his clarity of purpose against all odds on the Rey rescue mission, and didn't really gel with how things later played out against Kylo, either.

Still, I mean, first time using a lightsaber, no magic force powers guiding your hand...has to be pretty unnerving using your new laser sword that can randomly lop your arm off with one false move. His opponent appeared to be a melee specialist and probably a combat veteran (if you're willing to call out "TRAITOR!" and confidently duel someone in the middle of a raging battle...), but throwing Phasma in there instead would've done more to justify the L and set up a future rivalry than trash compactor comic relief.

I'm not sure what to make of Finn. His willingness to go out of a limb progressed from saving his own ass to saving Rey's. Along with that came increased combat prowess at each turn. I agree that having him lose to Phasma would have been better for both of them. I just feel like the growth of his character felt a little analog, for lack of a better term.

 

[Eidan]

It's interesting because for me Kylo became like 100% more interesting when he shed most of what was making him Vader stand in #1 and Darth Maul of the sequel trilogy.

When it became clear that he wasn't going to be just some fucking badass sith guy, he instantly became more interesting, Loved that he dropped the mask.

Agreed completely.

 

[Squire]

both, its like she was suffering.

Eh. She's old. Eccentric, too. If interviews are any indication, I think she's having a good time. Just seems like a nice old lady. Her daughter has a cameo in TFA, too.

 

[SixMachine]

Yeah, I've yet to hear a convincing argument on how this Mary Sue garbage doesn't apply to Luke.

It applies to both Luke and Anakin, though I wouldn't call them Mary Sues because they have a lot of failings and we have plenty of time to see Rey go through growing pains like they did in the new trilogy. Anakin is pretty much a kid's wish fulfillment fantasy in The Phantom Menance. He's a super special kid being the only human who can podrace, coincidentally gets locked into a Naboo starfighter to blow up a droid space station with even less know-how than Rey and Luke at a younger age. Not only that, in the movie they explicitly stated his oh so special mythical birth with a high midiclorian count.

I also think Kylo Ren is kind of lame by losing in the first movie in a mental, spiritual and physical sense. I know there are plenty caveats to his defeat like mental instability and being wounded, there are a lot of caveats for a lot of villains I like being beat. I understand perfectly what they are going for with the character, but as a personal preference I like villains who are a threat, who make you unsure of who is getting out alive and at what cost will it take for the protagonist to beat them. Vader is memorable because he was pretty much unstoppable until the end of the 3rd movie and you can see he out matched Luke. Empire Strikes Back is my favorite because it shows the despair the heroes face as they lose their base, Han is captured, Luke is wounded, and it ends on a defeat for the heroes leaving you wondering what happens to wrap it up. It's also why Terminator 1 and 2 have such a memorable villain, they seem really hard to stop, so it's up to the heroes to figure out a way to overcome their capabilities. It feels like Ren to me would need to work a lot to gain back "tough badguy" cred. This doesn't mean I hate him though, I can like lame things and I think his conflict is interesting, he just isn't intimidating to me.

 

[Turin]

lol, you guys... you do realize you're essentially explaining why I don't like Kylo Ren right?
"He's not the masterful badass he wishes to be", and other villains of the franchise, like even prequels villains like Dooku being far more badass, are exactly why I think Kylo Ren sucks. He's too weak and too lame. He doesn't even look troubled and conflicted, he looks emo and petulant.

Eh. His fragility is part of what makes his story interesting to me.

Don't get me wrong though. I love me a badass Sith. They're wraith ninjas with laser swords. I wish the guy playing Maul could act...... Loved that character on an aesthetic level.

Oh, well at least you know the point of the character is to grow into a badass sith lord. I loved the actor playing the guy. They even pulled off a part that was equal parts intimidating and funny.

I can't imagine any other actor pulling this role off, or any of the roles actually.

Personally, I'd rather he became a wild card like Asajj Ventruss.

 

[excelsiorlef]

Agreed completely.

Early on in the movie I was convinced he was just gonna die ala Darth Maul, that's how unremarkable he was to me until he started showing his less than Vader side.

I have to say though I want him to eventually be the anti-Anakin, I want him to go deep and dark and die deep and dark, no fucking redemption, make Han's death truly meaningful instead of something he needs to be forgiven for.

 

[Veelk]

Eh. If we ask JJ Abrams, I'm pretty sure he'll say that he cares about having created something that empirically does communicate the thing he intended to communicate. Lucas had certain things he wanted to accomplish with the prequels and he didn't accomplish them Full Stop. He wanted people to take away certain things but they took away different things. He's not psyched about that.

I definitely don't want to play a majority game either. Some humans are just bad at reading. Or just missed things or are prejudiced in some way. I'm not one of those people. My claim is small: it's reasonable to be intellectually dissatisfied by how this movie executed some things, especially with regard to Rey and double-especially with regard to the fight in the forest. And I see lots of people so dissatisfied.

Alright, then I misunderstood you. But it's fruitless to try and predict or appeal to all people. Personal reactions are so unpredictable that they might as well be random. There are really well written shows that I can't intellectually find fault with that I still have no like towards or have some problems with despite having difficulty articulating them. All writers have their hatedom. So for me, whether people react a certain way isn't really relevant. It's about whether they can back those feelings up with good arguments. Which they don't need to. Sometimes you just love or hate a story without really giving rational thought to it.

And perhaps some people are dissatisfied, but I feel I see way, way more that are.

With that, I think I'll bow out of the thread for now. It's the most successful thread I ever made (or had made for me), but monitoring it and the several excellent contributors is exhausting. For now, I'll let it run it's course and play catch up tomorrow.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

Literally the post you were replying to when you made your initial comment I quoted was talking about the writing of the final battle.

I don't understand what your point is.

And by super convenient chasm you mean the planet starting to blow up right?

Sure, I'm just saying it's comically convenient how that chasm appeared right there between the two of them at right that moment.

 

[Daingurse]

It's interesting because for me Kylo became like 100% more interesting when he shed most of what was making him Vader stand in #1 and Darth Maul of the sequel trilogy.

When it became clear that he wasn't going to be just some fucking badass sith guy, he instantly became more interesting, Loved that he dropped the mask.

Kylo Ren was something strange for me, might be a first in-fact. Like what you just described, I found him to grow far more compelling the less badass he became. Dude is completely menacing for like half the flick, a real badass. But once you learn about him feeling the pull of the light, and see him having fucking hilarious temper tantrums and shit, I actually started to dig the character. He was completely unhinged. I also just love that little reversal on feeling temptation from the lightside of the force, it's a cool perspective. Dude was activity conflicted and emotionally compromised throughout the movie. I really am interested in seeing how this character develops going forward. Will he become a true monster, the ideal Vader he perceives, or will he continue to be tormented? There's even the possibility of a return to the light. I'm very interested.

 

[Jarmel]

I feel that almost all the major complaints regarding the characters stems from the 2nd act, roughly from Han's freighter to landing on Starkiller, and it colors perceptions going into the 3rd act resulting in many of the takeaways we're seeing. For example, I saw Tony Zhou saying that Han felt out of place and I feel that's because the 2nd act didn't do a good enough job getting him 'into' the film. You have people like Poe just completely missing for chunks of the film. Phasma was actually AT the battle on Takodana according to that promo shot of her standing on the ruins, but the film does nothing with her until the Starkiller assault.

It's the worst part of the film on a lot of levels.

 

[Brakke]

It's interesting because for me Kylo became like 100% more interesting when he shed most of what was making him Vader stand in #1 and Darth Maul of the sequel trilogy.

When it became clear that he wasn't going to be just some fucking badass sith guy, he instantly became more interesting, Loved that he dropped the mask.

Same I think Kylo is really intriguing. I just wish we had a better idea of where he's going next, the movie leaves him so wide open its hard to say. In the next movie is he wracked with guilt and gives up trying to be Dark? Is he in the same place, putting up a brave face but failing to be as evil as he wants? Or did killing Han successfully harden his heart so he's a total motherfucker next movie?

Honestly I just have no idea where do things stand between this movie and next. How much of a blow to the Order was losing Starkiller? Which of Starkiller / The Resistance has the upper hand now? At the end of the OT movies we saw the Rebellion ("good guys") behind but gaining momentum, the Rebellion set back, the Rebellion victorious. After this one...?

Did Rey go to Luke because she fears the darkness within her? Or because she wants to strengthen the Light so she can conquer the Order? Does she even care about casting down the Order or does she only care about finding a place where she can feel loved and appreciated?

both, its like she was suffering.

Yeah I've been struggling with her performance. I don't know how much was acting choice-making and how much is just Carrie Fisher being old. There's definitely something "off" about her in this though.

 

[ElBoxyBrown]

Ren took off the mask way too early. It was bad timing.

 

[excelsiorlef]

I don't understand what your point is.


Sure, I'm just saying it's comically convenient how that chasm appeared right there between the two of them at right that moment.

I was clarifying that all my interactions with you were based on my belief (which was based of who you were replying to and what the discussion was about at the time) that you were unaware that Kylo was intentionally written a specific way.

There's a difference between not liking something because you think it goes against what the character was (the discussion we were all having)

And not liking something because you don't like the totality of who the character is (which is what you have now clarified)

My point was just to provide context for why I thought we were having conversation A

 

[Sojgat]

Kylo Ren was something strange for me, might be a first in-fact. Like what you just described, I found him to grow far more compelling the less badass he became. Dude is completely menacing for like hlaf the flick, a real badass. But once you learn about him feeling the pull of the light, and see him having fucking hilarious temper tantrums and shit. I actually started to dig the character, he was completely unhinged. I also just love that little reversal on feeling temptation from the lightside of the force, it's cool a perspective. Dude was activity conflicted and emotionally compromised throughout the movie. I really am interested in seeing how this character develops going forward. Will he become a true monster, the ideal Vader he perceives, or will he continue to be tormented? There's possibly even return to the light. I'm very interested.

This is basically how I feel.

To me he's the most interesting character by far. I honestly can't see him becoming a Vader clone in the next movie.

 

[NotTheGuyYouKill]

Oh, well at least you know the point of the character is to grow into a badass sith lord. I loved the actor playing the guy. They even pulled off a part that was equal parts intimidating and funny.

I can't imagine any other actor pulling this role off, or any of the roles actually.

Yeah, that was great. I did love that they gave Kylo Ren a bit of comedy.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

My point was just to provide context for why I thought we were having conversation A

Okay, I see.

 

[Admiral Woofington]

I feel that almost all the major complaints regarding the characters stems from the 2nd act, roughly from Han's freighter to landing on Starkiller, and it colors perceptions going into the 3rd act resulting in many of the takeaways we're seeing. For example, I saw Tony Zhou saying that Han felt out of place and I feel that's because the 2nd act didn't do a good enough job getting him 'into' the film. You have people like Poe just completely missing for chunks of the film. Phasma was actually AT the battle on Takodana according to that promo shot of her standing on the ruins, but the film does nothing with her until the Starkiller assault.

Yeah han never stopped being fan service. In their attempt to keep the original trilogy cast relevant for nostalgia they took away from the new cast.

Listen I love Luke Skywalker but after Rey trains with him a bit he better leave the screen to do something else while the movie focuses on the other guys.

Second film should have more Poe and Phasma though. Poe and Finn are likely to face her and her troops.

 

[CharminUltra]

Edit: oops, this was meant for the main thread.

 

[Speely]

Hmm. Rey lacks all the faults that Kylo possesses. It's almost as if they are being set up in fashions by which their assumed archetypes do not match up with their capabilities. Why would anyone do that?

I mean, unless they were trying to tell a different kind of story based on the Light Side and Dark Side and what they mean.

 

[excelsiorlef]

Same I think Kylo is really intriguing. I just wish we had a better idea of where he's going next, the movie leaves him so wide open its hard to say. In the next movie is he wracked with guilt and gives up trying to be Dark? Is he in the same place, putting up a brave face but failing to be as evil as he wants? Or did killing Han successfully harden his heart so he's a total motherfucker next movie?

Honestly I just have no idea where do things stand between this movie and next. How much of a blow to the Order was losing Starkiller? Which of Starkiller / The Resistance has the upper hand now? At the end of the OT movies we saw the Rebellion ("good guys") behind but gaining momentum, the Rebellion set back, the Rebellion victorious. After this one...?

Did Rey go to Luke because she fears the darkness within her? Or because she wants to strengthen the Light so she can conquer the Order? Does she even care about casting down the Order or does she only care about finding a place where she can feel loved and appreciated?

Well I mean they wiped out the entire Senate and a good chunk of the Resistance (both with the weapon and in the Starkiller battle) before losing Starkiller, so I think they have the numbers advantage now but no super weapon.

I mean functionally this is the problem with Star Wars, the universe has to be in a consistent battle because it's right in the name.

 

[Turin]

Rey's almost a ball of clay at the moment. I have no idea where her story's going. Will it be similar to Luke's or something out of left field?

Kylo Ren was something strange for me, might be a first in-fact. Like what you just described, I found him to grow far more compelling the less badass he became. Dude is completely menacing for like half the flick, a real badass. But once you learn about him feeling the pull of the light, and see him having fucking hilarious temper tantrums and shit. I actually started to dig the character, he was completely unhinged. I also just love that little reversal on feeling temptation from the lightside of the force, it's a cool perspective. Dude was activity conflicted and emotionally compromised throughout the movie. I really am interested in seeing how this character develops going forward. Will he become a true monster, the ideal Vader he perceives, or will he continue to be tormented? There's even the possibility of a return to the light. I'm very interested.

Exactly. I'm curious to see what he does with himself.

 

[NotTheGuyYouKill]

I hope Kylo Ren steals Anakin/Luke's saber back and then Rey gets a hold of Vader's saber (somehow, I dunno, fucking magic) and then we have a final rematch of them battling each other with the lightsabers reversed.

 

[NotTheGuyYouKill]

I do really think the idea that Kylo Ren is essentially a messed up guy with nebulous rage and no constructive outlet compelling. Him essentially fitting an 'outcast/school shooter' mold is pretty horrifying and compelling.

 

[Brakke]

I feel that almost all the major complaints regarding the characters stems from the 2nd act, roughly from Han's freighter to landing on Starkiller, and it colors perceptions going into the 3rd act resulting in many of the takeaways we're seeing. For example, I saw Tony Zhou saying that Han felt out of place and I feel that's because the 2nd act didn't do a good enough job getting him 'into' the film. You have people like Poe just completely missing for chunks of the film. Phasma was actually AT the battle on Takodana according to that promo shot of her standing on the ruins, but the film does nothing with her until the Starkiller assault.

It's the worst part of the film on a lot of levels.

I basically agree. Honestly the movie worked so well for me up until Han showed up. Zero complaints, totally satisfied, some things thrilled me in ways I honestly wasn't expecting (Kylo's bolt-grab, Poe's charm, Rey's quiet moment wearing the rebel helmet, Finn's bumbling endearing-ness). I went in skeptical but I was having sincere, heartfelt fanboy moments.

It's tough because I even liked a lot about Han. I liked his immediate and obvious chemistry with Rey, I liked the bowcaster jokes even though they were kind of dumb, I liked him stepping up as Obi-Wan-ish mentor despite his former skepticism. And reminding us why we loved Han is important if we want his death to be effective later. However! I was so bullish on the new characters that I was a little bummed to see so much time go to him and not to seriously digging into the new folk. Also he presages the first in a serious of ridiculous coincidences *and* the total death of geographic coherence, the first of which was kind of a bummer and the second of which really bothered me. Finally, the tentacle monsters and the Kajiklub were simply unnecessary for me.

I have real complicated feelings about the 2nd act and I can't help but think the 3rd could've landed for me better if not for the time wasted in the 2nd.

I hope Kylo Ren steals Anakin/Luke's saber back and then Rey gets a hold of Vader's saber (somehow, I dunno, fucking magic) and then we have a final rematch of them battling each other with the lightsabers reversed.

Hehe, she already got Luke's by "I dunno fucking magic" so honestly, why not Vader's, too.

 

[The One and Done™]

Hmm. Rey lacks all the faults that Kylo possesses. It's almost as if they are being set up in fashions by which their assumed archetypes do not match up with their capabilities. Why would anyone do that?

I mean, unless they were trying to tell a different kind of story based on the Light Side and Dark Side and what they mean.

Sarcastic post?

If not, i totally disagree with the idea that Rey lacks faults. She has several faults as a character IMO. She's very naive to an extent and also very trusting of people's word it seems. You can tell that she yearns for a sense of belonging based on how attached she became to Finn, BB and Han.

She may have a strong exterior but she's intrinsically sensitive and vunerable.

I'd also like to point out how different she is as a character than anything we've seen before I a movie protagonist. Big kudos to the writers and JJ. Rey is not a plug and play character and breaks away from standard archetypes. (And this has nothing to do with gender).

Very interesting character.

 

[ElBoxyBrown]

Ren needs to take notes from Alonzo. I want a scene with him acting like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6KrNpxODiDA