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[Veelk]

And I can just as easily say that Ren had fully embraced the dark side and was completely himself in that battle.

Then why was Rey depicted as being more in tune with the force?

It's like we have an equation. 2 + X = 5, and people really want for X = 2 when it's obvious it's 3. However, everything that we see afterwards implies that that's not the case. His acting, his desperation, and the fact that the OT has consistently shown that those who are in emotional turmoil are unable to utilize the force as effectively as those who are, and lo and behold, here we see Ren being beaten by Rey who is very attuned in the force.

If the situation only makes sense if Ren is in turmoil, what is the sense in acting like him not being in emotional turmoil is the correct interpretation?

The scene with the sun literally going out and all that's left on Ren's face is red, is symbolic of him giving himself up to the Darkside. The visual language in that scene demonstrates that he had indeed made up his mind, hence him tightening his grip on his lightsaber. The visual language of the film makes it clear that he's all in at that point.

Now I guess you can say that he was distracted since he didn't stop Chewie's uber blaster shot but considering he tracked and outraced Finn and Rey, his mental state wasn't that fucked up. Not to mention he really wanted to kill Finn at that point. Note how the film has Finn and Ren staring at each other after Han gets saber'd.

Finn has had extensive melee training so it's not particularly unbelievable that he could get a hit on Ren. Ren at the end did have orders to bring her to Snoke, which is what he was trying to do. Your explanation of Ren wanting validation is perfectly plausible but the bridge scene establishes that he's decided which road he's going to go down.

That's not how commitment works. For example, here's a person who adhere's to racist ideaology but still sees black people as human beings against his will, and this creates an internal conflict when he wants to adhere to KKK ideaology entirely but emotionally cannot. Still, he does what a racist is meant to do. He commits. And yet, even after he commits to his incredibly offensive act of racism and 'chooses his side', he is still conflicted.

Sorry, but this is just a fundamental misunderstanding of human behavior. The reason he was able to track and fight Finn and Rey is because distress isn't a delusional influence that make him see things that aren't there. It doesn't render him catatonic (though enough of it could, I guess). Ren could go out and murder his mother, Luke, and anybody that every loved him, but no matter how many actions he takes in the name of the dark side, if he still has doubts, they're not going to go away just because he forces himself to do what he does.

 

[plasmawave]

The scene with the sun literally going out and all that's left on Ren's face is red, is symbolic of him giving himself up to the Darkside. The visual language in that scene demonstrates that he had indeed made up his mind, hence him tightening his grip on his lightsaber. The visual language of the film makes it clear that he's all in at that point.

Now I guess you can say that he was distracted since he didn't stop Chewie's uber blaster shot but considering he tracked and outraced Finn and Rey, his mental state wasn't that fucked up. Not to mention he really wanted to kill Finn at that point. Note how the film has Finn and Ren staring at each other after Han gets saber'd.

Finn has had extensive melee training so it's not particularly unbelievable that he could get a hit on Ren. Ren at the end did have orders to bring her to Snoke, which is what he was trying to do. Your explanation of Ren wanting validation is perfectly plausible but the bridge scene establishes that he's decided which road he's going to go down.

Yup.

 

[Bobby Roberts]

A movie literally titled "The Force Awakens" and people can't believe that people are able to use it in ways we haven't seen before.

 

[Thatoneguy64]

Being strong with the force did A LOT more than help Anakin pod-race, even in EP 1. Are we forgetting the space battle? Maybe Rey is the new Anakin, not the new Luke.

Considering the regard Phantom Menace is held in, and in particular Anakin's character, I'm not sure that's the baseline you want to use if you're defending the writing of Rey.

 

[Crossing Eden]

The scene with the sun literally going out and all that's left on Ren's face is red, is symbolic of him giving himself up to the Darkside. The visual language in that scene demonstrates that he had indeed made up his mind, hence him tightening his grip on his lightsaber. The visual language of the film makes it clear that he's all in at that point.

Now I guess you can say that he was distracted since he didn't stop Chewie's uber blaster shot but considering he tracked and outraced Finn and Rey, his mental state wasn't that fucked up. Not to mention he really wanted to kill Finn at that point. Note how the film has Finn and Ren staring at each other after Han gets saber'd.

Finn has had extensive melee training so it's not particularly unbelievable that he could get a hit on Ren. Ren at the end did have orders to bring her to Snoke, which is what he was trying to do. Your explanation of Ren wanting validation is perfectly plausible but the bridge scene establishes that he's decided which road he's going to go down.

Yes he chose the darkside and isn't conflicted on that front, he's still experiencing the emotional turmoil of killing his father. It's not black and white like the prequels. Anakin wasn't conflicted at all about being in the dark side until he saw his son. Ren clearly is because he's not Anakin.

 

[Brakke]

Yes, lets take the word of a smuggler who didn't believe the force existed until that moment as conclusive proof of how effective Luke's ability is.

It's kinda surprising how willing people are to take the word of characters on abilities. Luke's abilities are justified because he says he shot at roadkill, and his BFF vouches for him in his time of desperation, and now Han is apparently an authority on force abilities.

But actually depicted abilities and wounds and emotional turmoil have room for ambiguity, apparently.

I'm obviously not taking either Han or Snoke as authority.

The drama matters. Luke's abilities are believable because the drama gives us room to believe them. When Luke blocks the shots it's a moment of mystery and wonder, it challenges our expectations and acknowledges that we have reason to be doubtful. Rey beats Kylo so thoroughly that it takes a Divine Intervention from the God of Earthquakes to save his life. Rey's triumphant and inevitable, Luke surprises himself, his compatriots, and us.

 

[zethren]

I don't understand how someone can watch that fight and not see that Ren is different, distressed, and hindered by his wound. Like, how much more spoon feeding does the film need to do? Does Kylo need to have a monologue about how distressed he is? I'm baffled, it was very clear.

 

[Fat4all]

Yes he chose the darkside and isn't conflicted on that front, he's still experiencing the emotional turmoil of killing his father.

That and getting shot by Chewies awesome bowcaster.

 

[Jarmel]

Yes he chose the darkside and isn't conflicted on that front, he's still experiencing the emotional turmoil of killing his father.

No, I get it. The novelization sums it up well in that he chose the Darkside at that moment and he thought his mind would be clearer but it still made him a mess as he hadn't had time to process everything. He was going off of rage but it was a sort of internal self-loathing that he projected onto Finn.

 

[plasmawave]

Then why was Rey depicted as being more in tune with the force?

It's like we have an equation. 2 + X = 5, and people really want for X = 2 when it's obvious it's 3. However, everything that we see afterwards implies that that's not the case. His acting, his desperation, and the fact that the OT has consistently shown that those who are in emotional turmoil are unable to utilize the force as effectively as those who are, and lo and behold, here we see Ren being beaten by Rey who is very attuned in the force.

If the situation only makes sense if Ren is in turmoil, what is the sense in acting like him not being in emotional turmoil is the correct interpretation?

Because she's the hero of the movie.
I don't see how they both can't be in tune with the force.

 

[Sojgat]

And I can just as easily say that Ren had fully embraced the dark side and was completely himself in that battle.

The scene with the sun literally going out and all that's left on Ren's face is red, is symbolic of him giving himself up to the Darkside. The visual language in that scene demonstrates that he had indeed made up his mind, hence him tightening his grip on his lightsaber. The visual language of the film makes it clear that he's all in at that point.

Now I guess you can say that he was distracted since he didn't stop Chewie's uber blaster shot but considering he tracked and outraced Finn and Rey, his mental state wasn't that fucked up. Not to mention he really wanted to kill Finn at that point. Note how the film has Finn and Ren staring at each other after Han gets saber'd.

Finn has had extensive melee training so it's not particularly unbelievable that he could get a hit on Ren. Ren at the end did have orders to bring her to Snoke, which is what he was trying to do. Your explanation of Ren wanting validation is perfectly plausible but the bridge scene establishes that he's decided which road he's going to go down.

You'd have to be totally ignoring Driver's entire performance or be incapable of reading facial expressions to not see that he's conflicted after killing his father.

SPOILER CLIP

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ds16xWkxpoo

 

[Squire]

I don't understand how someone can watch that fight and not see that Ren is different, distressed, and hindered by his wound. Like, how much more spoon feeding does the film need to do? Does Kylo need to have a monologue about how distressed he is? I'm baffled, it was very clear.

These people that need every single detail spelled out for them should watch the prequels. I think they'd really love those.

 

[Crossing Eden]

That and getting shot by Chewies awesome bowcaster.

Yea. Hard to stay calm after that as well.

No, I get it. The novelization sums it up well in that he chose the Darkside at that moment and he thought his mind would be clearer but it still made him a mess as he hadn't had time to process everything. He was going off of rage but it was a sort of internal self-loathing that he projected onto Finn.

It was conveyed so well. The moment where everything goes dark is basically a red herring based on the events that followed and it's insane that it flew over some people's heads and didn't become evident the second he popped up in the forest.

These people that need every single detail spelled out for them should watch the prequels. I think they'd really love those.

Or anime,
We need several voice overs of what's going on in the character's heads instead of actual acting.

Kylo:"What is this? I thought that killing my father would free me from the shackles of the light side. Which is why I stabbed him directly in the heart. But I feel more conflicted than ever. Is this the power of the light side of the force?! Oh shit I got shot, who do you think you're shooting at. I still need to rescue that girl, no time to feel conflicted."

Finn:Gasp

Rey:Ren....

Forest scene
Kylo"I still feel conflicted, I can ignore the wound for now but need to finish this quickly. That lowly stormtrooper is using MY birthright, how dare he, he's not in tune with the force, he can't possibly defeat me."

Finn:Gasp

Beats Finn.

Kylo:"You couldn't possibly defeat me. THIS is the power of the dark side."

Rey:"I'll show you the power of the light side of the force, because I have things that I want to protect. My friends are my power, and also the force, let it guide me."

 

[Chindogg]

Fantastic post which has convinced me that Mary Sue is a completely shitty term. However I still disagree that Rey isn't an unstoppable juggernaut that solves almost all of the problems she faces with zero help whatsoever.

When escaping in the Falcon, Finn couldn't shoot for shit. Just like how he couldn't shoot for shit when escaping with Poe. The gun itself actually locks up and it's Rey's somehow fantastical flying in a vehicle she's never flown before (seems she's never piloted a ship before ever anyways) which dead centers the guns on the chasing TIE fighter for Finn to shoot.

I understand and can buy all the mechanical know how from her scavenging, but I cannot buy her somehow uncanny piloting skills when she's never flown before or how she somehow learns how to use the Force from Kylo as if she's Mega Man stealing his powers. There's zero mention or showing of the mind trick at all in the film, yet she somehow knows about it and is able to do it completely on the spot? Yeah no.

As for the battle, even a gravely wounded Kylo, a Skywalker taught by Luke and Snoak themselves, should lose to someone who's never touched a lightsabre up until that very moment.

Her progression's just way too convenient to move the plot along to really buy her struggle at all. She's more like Neo from The Matrix trilogy only she skipped the first 3/4ths of the film and started at the lobby scene and was flying by the time she met Kylo in the forest.

There are many other problems I had with the film, but since this is more of a response to the OP I thought I'd try to articulate a proper response. The film's still pretty great overall and all of this are just minor flaws that only become glaring after not seeing the film for a few days. One I watch it again I'll most likely forget about all this as it's truly a joy to watch. Overall it's about as solid as Return of The Jedi and blows the prequels away easily.

 

[Veelk]

I'm obviously not taking either Han or Snoke as authority.

The drama matters. Luke's abilities are believable because the drama gives us room to believe them. When Luke blocks the shots it's a moment of mystery and wonder, it challenges our expectations and acknowledges that we have reason to be doubtful. Rey beats Kylo so thoroughly that it takes a Divine Intervention from the God of Earthquakes to save his life. Rey's triumphant and inevitable, Luke surprises himself, his compatriots, and us.

Rey is just as amazed as Luke is. And we've gone over the drama of her internal character development ad nauseum.

But you are right about one thing, there was divine intervention, and in reality, there is Divine Intervention that guided Luke, and it's name was George Lucas. You can't really use the argument that the only reason the villain survived is because of the writers because that is true of any work, no matter how 'authentic' seeming.

 

[zethren]

I absolutely agree with the visual symbolism there with the light fading and the red lighting on Ren. Yes definitely, it symbolizes that the choice he is making is to go deeper into the dark side and do what he believes he must do in order to achieve this. That doesn't mean he isn't distressed over it. He is clearly conflicted both in performance and in his dialog with Han about what he just did.

It's the light that is still in him conflicting with his desire to be like Vader. Which tragically is very much like Vader in and of itself. It's the same reason why Vader could not kill Luke or let him die, and the same light that Luke saw in his father. The same exact line is directed at Ren by Leia, to mirror that from the OT.

Ren is not 100% evil and darkside, though he is less redeemable now that he murdered his father. It will be interesting to see where his story goes.

 

[Jarmel]

You'd have to be totally ignoring Driver's entire performance or be incapable of reading facial expressions to not see that he's conflicted after killing his father.

SPOILER CLIP

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ds16xWkxpoo

He's not like Maul or anything but the light at the Starkiller Base was symbolic of hope and the moment it goes out, his face is literally bathed in red. He's troubled but he made his decision. As the novelization mentions, he thought his mind would be clearer as the thing troubling him is gone but there was still the lingering elements.

He resolved the inner debate at that moment but hadn't had time to fully process everything.

 

[Pizoxuat]

Kylo chooses the dark side, commits to his path, and he kills his father. But then his father caresses his face. He doesn't die cursing his son or hating the world in weeping in depair... his last living act is an act of love despite everything Kylo has done in pursuit of the dark side. For a fucked up guy who admits to feeling the pull of the light side, that throws everything he just did into complete disarray. It had to have been the last thing he could have expected Han to do as he rehearsed the big moment in his mind over and over.

Of course he's in emotional turmoil!

 

[New002]

As someone who's not a big Star Wars fan, having seen each of the movies only once or twice, and years ago at that, the biggest thing that stood out to me as being weird was the whole Rey knowing how to use that force mind control or whatever...seemingly out of nowhere.

The other thing that stood out to me as kind of odd was how Rey ended up rocking Kylo Ren. I figured Ren would have made relatively quick work out of both of Rey and Finn given his backstory. I mean...the movie kind of set him up to be this crazy force to be reckoned with. Even with his injury and mental anguish, I would have expected him to come out on top due to his training and experience. Admittedly I don't know much when it comes to Star Wars lore, but it seemed to me like someone with massive force/combat experience, but potentially shaky use of the force (due to emotional distress), would still trump someone with a more powerful, but unrefined use of the force.

I think the movie could have slowed down in regards to her power level increase. Maybe both Finn and Rey could have been rescued right as a wounded Kylo Ren was about to finish them off. Then Rey could go off to train and be more of a match during their next encounter. The way things typically go basically.

All that being said, I still enjoyed the movie a lot, and I'll be picking up the blu-ray for sure, so it's not like these things ruined the movie for me or anything. These are just things that stuck out to me when watching the movie.

 

[Crossing Eden]

Kylo chooses the dark side, commits to his path, and he kills his father. But then his father caresses his face. He doesn't die cursing his son or hating the world in weeping in depair... his last living act is an act of love despite everything Kylo has done in pursuit of the dark side. For a fucked up guy who admits to feeling the pull of the light side, that throws everything he just did into complete disarray. It had to have been the last thing he could have expected Han to do as he rehearsed the big moment in his mind over and over.

Of course he's in emotional turmoil!

Especially when he mentions that Rey shouldn't consider Han to be a father figure because he'll disappoint her. He was most definitely not expecting that reaction at all.

As someone who's not a big Star Wars fan, having seen each of the movies only once or twice, and years ago at that, the biggest thing that stood out to me as being weird was the whole Rey knowing how to use that force mind control or whatever...seemingly out of nowhere.

The other thing that stood out to me as kind of odd was how Rey ended up rocking Kylo Ren. I figured Ren would have made relatively quick work out of both of Rey and Finn given his backstory. I mean...the movie kind of set him up to be this crazy force to be reckoned with. Even with his injury and mental anguish, I would have expected him to come out on top due to his training and experience. Admittedly I don't know much when it comes to Star Wars lore, but it seemed to me like someone with massive force/combat experience, but potentially shaky use of the force (due to emotional distress), would still trump someone with a more powerful, but unrefined use of the force.

I think the movie could have slowed down in regards to her power level increase. Maybe both Finn and Rey could have been rescued right as a wounded Kylo Ren was about to finish them off. Then Rey could go off to train and be more of a match during their next encounter. The way things typically go basically.

All that being said, I still enjoyed the movie a lot, and I'll be picking up the blu-ray for sure, so it's not like these things ruined the movie for me or anything. These are just things that stuck out to me when watching the movie.

He doesn't have massive force experience/lightsaber combat training. It seemingly quite the opposite, his style is incredibly chaotic right down to the design of the lightsaber, which seemingly is on the verge of exploding, (if a Jedi doesn't create a lightsaber right it'll explode after being activated). When a character is distressed he becomes less in-tune with the force, which generally guides the actions of the user. Someone who's completely calm in a situation can defeat three assailants while poisoned and blinded just by using the force. In their next encounter on equal footing the two will be a much closer match.

 

[BlastProcessing]

He's not like Maul or anything but the light at the Starkiller Base was symbolic of hope and the moment it goes out, his face is literally bathed in red. He's troubled but he made his decision. As the novelization mentions, he thought his mind would be clearer as the thing troubling him is gone but there was still the lingering elements.

He resolved the inner debate at that moment but hadn't had time to fully process everything.

My interpretation is that he thought it would help, but it didn't resolve shit. That's what Driver's performance says to me. The light is symbolic, but it isn't everything.

 

[Brakke]

Rey is just as amazed as Luke is. And we've gone over the drama of her internal character development ad nauseum.

But you are right about one thing, there was divine intervention, and in reality, there is Divine Intervention that guided Luke, and it's name was George Lucas. You can't really use the argument that the only reason the villain survived is because of the writers because that is true of any work, no matter how 'authentic' seeming.

Uhh the topic here is the Mary Sue, which is an example of an author straining credulity so much that we glare at them instead of taking the work on its own terms. Sometimes people accept a miracle and sometimes people see a miracle as weak craft. When Luke kills the Death Star everyone* feels triumphant. When the earthquake separates Rey and Kylo, I for one rolled the fuck out of my eyes. Luke killing the Death Star is cathartic; the earthquake chasm is contrived. Authors gotta earn their miracles.

* for "close enough to everyone" values of everyone

 

[Bobby Roberts]

These people that need every single detail spelled out for them should watch the prequels. I think they'd really love those.

Maybe they'll clear some time in the schedule after their 100th viewing of the Plinkett reviews

 

[Sojgat]

He's not like Maul or anything but the light at the Starkiller Base was symbolic of hope and the moment it goes out, his face is literally bathed in red. He's troubled but he made his decision. As the novelization mentions, he thought his mind would be clearer as the thing troubling him is gone but there was still the lingering elements.

He resolved the inner debate at that moment but hadn't had time to fully process everything.

There's a wave of regret beginning to wash over his face. If Chewie didn't shoot him an instant later he might have just as easily dropped to his knees and started bawling.

Kylo chooses the dark side, commits to his path, and he kills his father. But then his father caresses his face. He doesn't die cursing his son or hating the world in weeping in depair... his last living act is an act of love despite everything Kylo has done in pursuit of the dark side. For a fucked up guy who admits to feeling the pull of the light side, that throws everything he just did into complete disarray. It had to have been the last thing he could have expected Han to do as he rehearsed the big moment in his mind over and over.

Of course he's in emotional turmoil!

This.

 

[Fat4all]

I felt the movie made it pretty clear the Kylo wasn't at 100% when fighting Finn and Rey.

Even Finn was able to clip Kylo before getting knocked the fuck out.

 

[Squire]

Or anime,
We need several voice overs of what's going on in the character's heads instead of actual acting.

Kylo:"What is this? I thought that killing my father would free me from the shackles of the light side. Which is why I stabbed him directly in the heart. But I feel more conflicted than ever. Is this the power of the light side of the force?! Oh shit I got shot, who do you think you're shooting at. I still need to rescue that girl, no time to feel conflicted."

Finn:Gasp

Rey:Ren....

Forest scene
Kylo"I still feel conflicted, I can ignore the wound for now but need to finish this quickly. That lowly stormtrooper is using MY birthright, how dare he, he's not in tune with the force, he can't possibly defeat me."

Finn:Gasp

Beats Finn.

Kylo:"You couldn't possibly defeat me. THIS is the power of the dark side."

Rey:"I'll show you the power of the light side of the force, because I have things that I want to protect. My friends are my power, and also the force, let it guide me."

The bolded killed me 😂😂😂

Maybe they should just replace Kylo Ren with Vageta.

Maybe they'll clear some time in the schedule after their 100th viewing of the Plinkett reviews

/dead

 

[Jarmel]

My interpretation is that he thought it would help, but it didn't resolve shit. That's what Driver's performance says to me. The light is symbolic, but it isn't everything.

That's what I got of it too. His mind should have been at peak hate and he thought it would be, but his remaining sentiment got in the way. As a result, he wanted to kill the other person like him, Finn, possibly as a form of self-punishment.

 

[Veelk]

Uhh the topic here is the Mary Sue, which is an example of an author straining credulity so much that we glare at them instead of taking the work on its own terms. Sometimes people accept a miracle and sometimes people see a miracle as weak craft. When Luke kills the Death Star everyone* feels triumphant. When the earthquake separates Rey and Kylo, I for one rolled the fuck out of my eyes. Luke killing the Death Star is cathartic; the earthquake chasm is contrived. Authors gotta earn their miracles.

* for "close enough to everyone" values of everyone

Straining credibility that the eruption of the planet meant that Rey couldn't finish Ren off? No, that's not straining credibility at all.

And I certainly didn't feel triumphant at Luke's ability. I've on record saying that I consider ANH the weakest of the OT with the climactic run in general being BS because Luke's ability with the force isn't established beyond one training exercise and experience killing roadkill on his dirtball backwater planet. Does the fact that one person doesn't think it was earned mean that it's automatically BS? Because as this thread shows, there are plenty of people who are very satisfied with Rey's victory and have gone out of their way to justify why it's hardly a 'miracle'. It certainly got more justification than "Well there's this one impossible weakspot on the deathstar, but it's a million to 1 shot" "One and done."

 

[Meia]

I agree, Mary Sue is a lame, vague term that I'm guilty of using myself. In regards to Rey, I just wish they explored her immediate backstory a bit more instead of using her as a vessel for solutions and a character focus in numerous setpieces without exploring her nuances or faulting her to require cooperation and assistance. It's not black and white, as she obviously has her moments, but it's an overarching issue (and probably the only big one) I have with the film; it's insistence to push forward aggressively and spend little time exploring our characters intimately or growing them through quiet exchanges. So while with Luke we see him make mistakes and learn a bit about him, his family, and his history, long before and during the climatic setpieces (stuff like Leia bailing Luke, Chewie, and Han out of the prison escape is a good example of the dynamic), with Rey we simply see her often having ideas, running in head first, and taking little time to reach peak ability.

And her versatility makes her fucking rad. I love her. She makes for great cinema, and Daisy nails it. I'm also positive they'll explore her deliberately vague backstory a bit more in the next movies. I like that they kept that a central mystery. But when I hear that in the prequel novel it explores how she has a flight sim salvaged from a wreck, gets screwed over by people, and has learned how to put parts together in her workshop to maximise her investments, I'm sad we saw almost literally none of this in the film. It's quintessential Abrams, similar to Star Trek 2009, where the narrative moves so far and is so focused on the moment-to-moment emotional investment that it doesn't want to breath, just as with young Kirk's incredibly fast, forward moving arc. The different here, in my opinion, between Rey and Luke is that with Luke we do see more justification for his strengths and weaknesses. The Force Awakens simply doesn't bother. Rey is not the only character subjective to this; Finn's motivations are great in theory but still fasttracked. And while I can see how some might prefer this style of film making, it's a strength I feel ANH and ESB had far greater over TFA in establishing and building characters. Kylo is probably the only one to receive a really full spectrum of attention, in intimacy and climax.

This is really my only problem with the movie. The original trilogy, for the most part, felt like self contained narratives that introduced characters and pretty much revealed almost all there was to them right away. This movie KNOWS it's the first movie in a trilogy, so it feels like there's no rush to get into why the characters are the way they are. For the most part, the movie has three main characters(Rey, Finn, Kylo), and of them you only learn one's last name in it.


I LOVED the movie, and I know they had to, but I actually felt the movie shift gears quite a bit the second Han appeared on screen, and I'm not sure it was for the better. I would have loved just having a movie with all 3 having all the screen time, and save the others for the later movies. I do get why they did though as the movie felt like more of an apology for the prequels than anything else. It also speaks to the strengths of the movie that these have been really the first characters introduced since the original trilogy that I actually LIKED.

 

[PopeReal]

The problem with the film that is resulting in this thread essentially is that Abrams fucked up the pacing. Luke had a relatively slow development throughout the OT and Anakin benefitted from lengthy time skips.



When you potentially have the main character doing this in the first episode of a trilogy, it feels like something went haywire with the pacing/build-up. The OT had a really slow burn in how elements like the Force powers were treated and here it feels accelerated.

Why? I don't get how there is some mandatory time different character arcs have to prescribe too.

 

[Jarmel]

Why? I don't get how there is some mandatory time different character arcs have to prescribe too.

Slow build-ups make the payoff that much better. That's part of the reason why movies like the original Matrix are so good.

 

[Croatoan]

Fantastic post which has convinced me that Mary Sue is a completely shitty term. However I still disagree that Rey isn't an unstoppable juggernaut that solves almost all of the problems she faces with zero help whatsoever.

When escaping in the Falcon, Finn couldn't shoot for shit. Just like how he couldn't shoot for shit when escaping with Poe. The gun itself actually locks up and it's Rey's somehow fantastical flying in a vehicle she's never flown before (seems she's never piloted a ship before ever anyways) which dead centers the guns on the chasing TIE fighter for Finn to shoot.

I understand and can buy all the mechanical know how from her scavenging, but I cannot buy her somehow uncanny piloting skills when she's never flown before or how she somehow learns how to use the Force from Kylo as if she's Mega Man stealing his powers. There's zero mention or showing of the mind trick at all in the film, yet she somehow knows about it and is able to do it completely on the spot? Yeah no.

As for the battle, even a gravely wounded Kylo, a Skywalker taught by Luke and Snoak themselves, should lose to someone who's never touched a lightsabre up until that very moment.

Her progression's just way too convenient to move the plot along to really buy her struggle at all. She's more like Neo from The Matrix trilogy only she skipped the first 3/4ths of the film and started at the lobby scene and was flying by the time she met Kylo in the forest.

There are many other problems I had with the film, but since this is more of a response to the OP I thought I'd try to articulate a proper response. The film's still pretty great overall and all of this are just minor flaws that only become glaring after not seeing the film for a few days. One I watch it again I'll most likely forget about all this as it's truly a joy to watch. Overall it's about as solid as Return of The Jedi and blows the prequels away easily.

She had piloted before. She even says it. She just hadn't flown the MF before.

 

[DryEyeRelief]

Why? I don't get how there is some mandatory time different character arcs have to prescribe too.

Because the word development involves time & experience. When you have shorter phases (or absoultely none at all) it's more difficult to actually showcase development of a character.

 

[Brakke]

Straining credibility that the eruption of the planet meant that Rey couldn't finish Ren off? No, that's not straining credibility at all.

And I certainly didn't feel triumphant at Luke's ability. I've on record saying that I consider ANH the weakest of the OT with the climactic run in general being BS because Luke's ability with the force isn't established beyond one training exercise and experience killing roadkill on his dirtball backwater planet. Does the fact that one person doesn't think it was earned mean that it's automatically BS?

Well if you wanna play some Count The Votes game I guess we're at an impasse. Clearly Star Wars resonated through the decades and lots of people love ANH. Clearly lots of people are dissatisfied with Rey's triumph. What are those numbers? And what are the thresholds for those numbers to matter? Who can say.

My personal perception is that Luke killing the Death Star worked well enough for enough people that it spawned a media empire. My personal perception of the fight in the woods is that it didn't work well enough for enough people that it spawned a days-long internet argument. I can't time-travel back to when ANH is new in order to find people for whom killing the Death Star didn't play, so that's that I guess.

I'm pretty sure I've never called this new movie BS. I've said a bunch of times that I basically like it, but I think a lot of things are poorly executed, and that's frustrating to me.

 

[Chindogg]

She had piloted before. She even says it. She just hadn't flown the MF before.

Ok so there's that. Well that's at least one aspect.

 

[PopeReal]

Slow build-ups make the payoff that much better. That's part of the reason why movies like the original Matrix are so good.

See, we just have different tastes. That is all. I hate all the Matrix movies. But I get that I am in the minority. I tried but they never clicked with me.

Anyway I feel that there is tons of build up with this trilogy. If they wouldn't have brought back the old characters they definitely could have slowed down with Rey.

 

[ElBoxyBrown]

I still fucks with Ren though. That lightsaber had too much swagger.

Well that's because he's sexist.

His own gross personal issues are kinda tangential to the weak argument he initiated, though. His argument regarding Rey is weak for its own reasons.

One of the more interesting lessons I think a lot of people have learned from this whole brouhaha is that "nothing bad ever came of unfollowing Max Landis"

Have you read American Alien? Does he treat Superman like a "Mary Sue?"

 

[Veelk]

Well if you wanna play some Count The Votes game I guess we're at an impasse. Clearly Star Wars resonated through the decades and lots of people love ANH. Clearly lots of people are dissatisfied with Rey's triumph. What are those numbers? And what are the thresholds for those numbers to matter? Who can say.

My personal perception is that Luke killing the Death Star worked well enough for enough people that it spawned a media empire. My personal perception of the fight in the woods is that it didn't work well enough for enough people that it spawned a days-long internet argument. I can't time-travel back to when ANH is new in order to find people for whom killing the Death Star didn't play, so that's that I guess.

I'm pretty sure I've never called this new movie BS. I've said a bunch of times that I basically like it, but I think a lot of things are poorly executed, and that's frustrating to me.

I don't want to play the numbers. I thought that's what you were implying. That because more people bought Luke's climax than Rey's, that must mean she did something wrong. For, no. For one, we can't really judge whether it will spawn a media empire, because we haven't seen the after affects of Episode 7. It literally hasn't even been out for a week. It obviously won't be the same as ANH because it is a continuation of ANH's start, but it could ascend the series into an even greater level of popularity. At the same time, people couldn't debate the validity of ANH's ending because, at the time, the internet didn't exist.

It's a bad comparison, but even if the variables were set to equal, in regards of releases, what this amounts to is an appeal to popularity, which is a fallacy.

So the "More people are conflicted about it, therefore it must be poorly executed" is a bad line of reasoning.

 

[New002]

Especially when he mentions that Rey shouldn't consider Han to be a father figure because he'll disappoint her. He was most definitely not expecting that reaction at all.


He doesn't have massive force experience/lightsaber combat training. It seemingly quite the opposite, his style is incredibly chaotic right down to the design of the lightsaber, which seemingly is on the verge of exploding, (if a Jedi doesn't create a lightsaber right it'll explode after being activated). When a character is distressed he becomes less in-tune with the force, which generally guides the actions of the user. Someone who's completely calm in a situation can defeat three assailants while poisoned and blinded just by using the force. In their next encounter on equal footing the two will be a much closer match.

Wait I thought he trained with Luke growing up and then massacred that whole school or whatever? Did I totally misunderstand that? I mean, I figured he was pretty damn skilled in lightsaber combat and use of the force based on what the movie was presenting :/ Maybe this is the excuse I need to go see it again

I also totally understand the fact that being distressed can be a tremendous handicap in a fight. You see it all the time in movies, t.v. shows, cartoons, etc. where the bad guy is too worked up and loses. It just seemed to me that in that final encounter, even with the various handicaps, Ren should have still outclassed both of his opponents. But like you said maybe the Force + Clarity of mind is just THAT powerful. Like I said I'm not a big Star Wars guy so maybe this is known and I'm just out of the loop.

I like how I didn't even think about any of this after the movie until I saw this thread It truly is a minor detail to me, but I like chatting about the movie!

 

[Prologue]

Wasn't it implied that Rey was a student of Luke at the academy but had her memory wiped? Can't most of her abilities be explained by that fact?

 

[EviLore]

When escaping in the Falcon, Finn couldn't shoot for shit. Just like how he couldn't shoot for shit when escaping with Poe. The gun itself actually locks up and it's Rey's somehow fantastical flying in a vehicle she's never flown before (seems she's never piloted a ship before ever anyways) which dead centers the guns on the chasing TIE fighter for Finn to shoot.

Finn can't shoot for shit since when? He shoots a goddamn high speed homing projectile down during the Star Destroyer escape using manually targeted blasters, two minutes after having never used anything other than infantry weapons before in his life and needing Poe to explain the controls to him. In the Falcon sequence he offs both TIEs unscathed while coming to terms with a completely different set of controls and the jarring rotation of the Falcon's gunner pod compared to the TIE gunner seat, in the completely different scenario of an atmospheric battle. Rey provided an opportunity for a shot on the second TIE, but that opportunity was only necessary because the gun's position jammed and it was not possible to aim to the rear anymore. Finn's shot still required perfect timing and coordination with Rey to score a kill, since he had to wait for the brief moment when his turret aligned with the TIE or it would've been for nothing and given the TIE a clear shot instead. It wasn't like when Poe set him up with an easy, stable bombing run on the Star Destroyer's turrets.

Poe and Rey were both shocked by how talented and adaptive he was in those battles. All that, plus getting a hit in on Kylo Ren in a lightsaber battle to the death without any hint of having any force abilities of his own, and we're painting him out to be some sort of stormtrooper flunkie?

 

[DrForester]

Finn can't shoot for shit since when? He shoots a goddamn high speed homing projectile down during the Star Destroyer escape using manually targeted blasters, two minutes after having never used anything other than infantry weapons before in his life and needing Poe to explain the controls to him. In the Falcon sequence he offs both TIEs unscathed while coming to terms with a completely different set of controls and the jarring rotation of the Falcon's gunner pod compared to the TIE gunner seat, in the completely different scenario of an atmospheric battle. Rey provided an opportunity for a shot on the second TIE, but that opportunity was only necessary because the gun's position jammed and it was not possible to aim to the rear anymore. Finn's shot still required perfect timing and coordination with Rey to score a kill, since he had to wait for the brief moment when his turret aligned with the TIE or it would've been for nothing and given the TIE a clear shot instead. It wasn't like when Poe set him up with an easy, stable bombing run on the Star Destroyer's turrets.

Poe and Rey were both shocked by how talented and adaptive he was in those battles. All that, plus getting a hit in on Kylo Ren in a lightsaber battle to the death without any hint of having any force abilities of his own, and we're painting him out to be some sort of stormtrooper flunkie?

Given that Ren knows Finn's designation, and Finn was on what was probably a pretty selective ground operation on Jakku to help Ren recover the map, I figure he was a pretty elite Stormtrooper.

 

[Jarmel]

It's Finn losing to that random stormtrooper that sets him way back. It should have been Phasma, not only for her character, but his.

 

[DryEyeRelief]

Wasn't it implied that Rey was a student of Luke at the academy but had her memory wiped? Can't most of her abilities be explained by that fact?

It's not a fact yet if it's only implied

 

[excelsiorlef]

Fantastic post which has convinced me that Mary Sue is a completely shitty term. However I still disagree that Rey isn't an unstoppable juggernaut that solves almost all of the problems she faces with zero help whatsoever.

When escaping in the Falcon, Finn couldn't shoot for shit. Just like how he couldn't shoot for shit when escaping with Poe. The gun itself actually locks up and it's Rey's somehow fantastical flying in a vehicle she's never flown before (seems she's never piloted a ship before ever anyways) which dead centers the guns on the chasing TIE fighter for Finn to shoot.

Locks up? It gets shot because Rey couldn't dodge everything.

 

[PopeReal]

Because the word development involves time & experience. When you have shorter phases (or absoultely none at all) it's more difficult to actually showcase development of a character.

Agreed, but we have 3 movies (probably not even 7 hours) to deal with both Rey, the other new characters, and returning characters. We haven't even dealt with Luke at all.

Besides, this is the story they are telling. She appears to be pretty powerful Jedi. We have had awesome ones like Yoda and ObiWan and pathetic ones that got mowed down by droids in the battle of Geonosis. It looks like if she gets trained by Luke she is going to be one of the best ones.

For some to just say it is lazy or bad writing to make her a stronger space wizard than the next space wizard just doesn't make any sense to me.

 

[Squire]

>Rey is OP for demonstrating no more skill than the narrative sets her up to have

>Finn is a chump because he lost one fight against someone with the same training as him

seems legit

 

[excelsiorlef]

Uhh the topic here is the Mary Sue, which is an example of an author straining credulity so much that we glare at them instead of taking the work on its own terms. Sometimes people accept a miracle and sometimes people see a miracle as weak craft. When Luke kills the Death Star everyone* feels triumphant. When the earthquake separates Rey and Kylo, I for one rolled the fuck out of my eyes. Luke killing the Death Star is cathartic; the earthquake chasm is contrived. Authors gotta earn their miracles.

* for "close enough to everyone" values of everyone

Well I mean the whole planet was about to explode.

 

[zethren]

>Rey is OP for demonstrating no more skill than the narrative sets her up to have

>Finn is a chump because he lost one fight against someone with the same training as him

seems legit

Also consider this:

The Stormtrooper that Finn faced was equipped with the weapon he was, because he was likely trained and willingly to go toe to toe with a Jedi (or at the very least someone wielding a lightsaber). If they are hunting Luke, you know they are preparing for that inevitability.

 

[ElBoxyBrown]

>Rey is OP for demonstrating no more skill than the narrative sets her up to have

>Finn is a chump because he lost one fight against someone with the same training as him

seems legit

Rey = Goku
Finn = Krillin