Or he'll get Anakin's blue saber, Rey gets Luke's green saber and they can do a Will/Hannibal team up on Snoke.
Which is probably why I'm kind of hoping they take him in a more.... constructive direction.
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Rey as a Mary Sue [STAR WARS: THE FORCE AWAKENS SPOILERS]
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Or he'll get Anakin's blue saber, Rey gets Luke's green saber and they can do a Will/Hannibal team up on Snoke.
Which is probably why I'm kind of hoping they take him in a more.... constructive direction.
The books complicate this a bit. The Republic's fleet got wiped but they had demilitarized and told their members to defend themselves anyway. Presumably the sum of the local "militias" exceeded the Republic's fleet? So there's a Republic vs Order race to recruit / conquer dis-integrated systems? I say presumably because, and this bums me out: who knows!
NotTheGuyYouKill
Member
The latter half of that is actually fantastic. Would make for a hell of a finale to the arc.
The more I think about it... the more I love that actually.
But NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO to the green lightsaber. I hate the green lightsaber. Green lightsabers look stupid to me.
Aye. Honestly, even though he killed Han, I'm kind of rooting for him to find his way to the light. Maybe through death.
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
That would be extremely cliché and predictable.
Edit: I would prefer this instead (it's a little cliché and predictable too but less so):
I like the idea some people have mentioned that Rey learned a few basic force powers from Ren, and he acted as an unwilling teacher. However, I still feel like the battle serenity at the end came a little too easily, considering how previous films have stressed the difficulty of opening yourself to the force, and she only had Ren's example and a minimal peptalk from Mas. I think that the difference between Luke's time with Obi-Wan and her progression, though small, is significant, but I see the counterarguments. Of course, this can easily be explained in the next movie with some explanation of her background and potential. I just wish we didn't have to wait!
I'm most excited to see where they go with Kylo Ren, though. I find him much more interesting than any previous character, force user or otherwise.
I'm most excited to see where they go with Kylo Ren, though. I find him much more interesting than any previous character, force user or otherwise.
So was killing *another* Death Star! We gotta be ready for a trilogy defined by creators struggling with how much to homage and how much to subvert.
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
Oh I know. So far they haven't found much to subvert tbh.
NotTheGuyYouKill
Member
It's Star Wars, not an M Night Shymsham film.
Oh man, it'd be rad if Rey kept showing up to kick Kylo Ren's ass and every time she walked away knowing more powers.
The One and Done;190314782 said:
The strawmen casually tossed about are really getting tiresome. The current discussion has nothing to do with TFA being too much like the originals. It has squarely to do with what many feel is bad writing and poor development of a central character at key points.
Daisy nailed Rey in TFA and the character deserved more is all. But please, continue to use your own mental gymnastics to fight ghosts that do not exist. I wager 95% of those here with a critique love the movie.
So just maybe it's you who should take a long look in the mirror before telling anyone to grow up.
Atraveller
Banned
POETRY!
And somehow, that Internet minority is always heard the loudest
usually because it's always on 4chan
Haha, yeah if he comes back with lightning, he better finish the job, otherwise there won't be an episode 9.
excelsiorlef
Member
We shall see in 2 years or whatever lol
I'm okay with that. The journey to that point doesn't have to be.
With that said, I don't think redemption is the right word to use in this case. You can't remove the stain of past heinous actions.
The One and Done;190316585 said:
I love Rey. My post was referencing the perceived lack of faults, as the hero, that have led to her supposed Mary Sue status. I think she's a great hero for a SW saga.
My point was more to say that she DOES have faults but they are not standard and those faults that might have been viewed as "standard" are possessed by her foil.
And I love that.
excelsiorlef
Member
Oh I know. So far they haven't found much to subvert tbh.
They literally completely subverted both the Darth Vader archetype and the Fighting the influence of the darkside plot line (that one being literally inverted)
But you just don't like that
Not to mention Stormtroopers having personalities.
A ton was subverted already.
Frecklestein
Banned
Poe is probably more Mary Sue than Rey or any other character, honestly.
They literally completely subverted both the Darth Vader archetype and the Fighting the influence of the darkside plot line (that one being literally inverted)
But you just don't like that
Not to mention Stormtroopers having personalities.
A ton was subverted already.
The subversion/inversion of the "fighting the Dark Side" struggle is one of my favorite parts of this new story. I think it was really well done and will factor in heavily throughout the trilogy.
OK I easily could have missed it cause there are a lot of posts here to go through, but has anyone on the other side actually responded to the OP? Seems most have just come in and said "actually she is a Mary Sue" and argued with others within the thread.
A shame if so, cause the reason the post became an OP in the first place was because of how good it was.
A shame if so, cause the reason the post became an OP in the first place was because of how good it was.
Thanks for this.
ElBoxyBrown
Banned
We're just calling into question certain things but overall not dismissing her as a "Mary Sue."
Yeah! That post is cool and lovely. That kids are psyched about Rey really blunts the edge of any criticisms I have about her "arc".
I shared this in the main thread but there was a nice little pair of tweets from Guillermo del Toro on this:
The Mary Sue controversy is like encountering an Orgasm Sheriff halfway through an Orgy, rating our joy on a 1-10 scale for our "own good"
A character's "Mary/Gary Sue-ness" is a sliding scale that enables a tone/genre narrative choice. Not a quality impediment.
https://twitter.com/realgdt/status/678475428139520000
A character's "Mary/Gary Sue-ness" is a sliding scale that enables a tone/genre narrative choice. Not a quality impediment.
https://twitter.com/realgdt/status/678475428139520000
There are some ways in which Rey doesn't "work" for me. But that she works in such cool ways to some people makes me overall Happy that she exists.
There's a lot about Rey that is just like Luke, the big difference, and the main reason I'd say some people think she's a worse character than Luke, is that she's very successful at everything right off the bat.
It only takes Rey half of TFA to become just as good or better than Luke at everything, while he struggled and/or took a long time to learn some of the things she wasn't even taught.
I do agree that Luke didn't really have any "flaws" either(that was in one of the deleted scenes), regardless of the definition one wants to use. Still, we see him fail and struggle many times in ANH. Rey's only mistake that I can remember is when she presses the wrong button and releases the rathtars. I've seen people say she fucked up by running off after the lightsaber vision/memory thing, but everything was fine when she left.
It only takes Rey half of TFA to become just as good or better than Luke at everything, while he struggled and/or took a long time to learn some of the things she wasn't even taught.
I do agree that Luke didn't really have any "flaws" either(that was in one of the deleted scenes), regardless of the definition one wants to use. Still, we see him fail and struggle many times in ANH. Rey's only mistake that I can remember is when she presses the wrong button and releases the rathtars. I've seen people say she fucked up by running off after the lightsaber vision/memory thing, but everything was fine when she left.
Poe is more of a plot device than an actual character in this film.
ElBoxyBrown
Banned
excelsiorlef
Member
Kids were also psyched for Jar Jar.
Even if that's a joke that's a bullshit comparison.
Yup including beating Kylo Ren in a fight.
WrenchNinja
Member
My only issue with Rey is that her force power up at the end just amounted to fighting a little better. It's like some lame Bleach power up. I wanted some cool force powers or something after her meditation.
excelsiorlef
Member
And he resisted Kylo's mind probing for a bit before giving out, and he didn't have any force connection
Kids were also psyched for [...] Trade Federations.
Yo for real if you know such a kid send him my way I wanna talk to the little dork.
ElBoxyBrown
Banned
When did he beat him? He blew up the Death Planet but other than the torture scene Poe had no interaction with Ren since.
Kids were also psyched for Jar Jar and Trade Federations.
I didn't care for Jar Jar and couldn't even spell the second thing.
Moff
Member
Mary Sue is a dumb term, i don't like it at all.
but rey surely has some knowledge and skills that can't really be explained.
I guess her knowing the falcon so well could be explained by her scavenging and deep knowledge of any kind of starships. and her resisting kylo could be explained by an innate strenght in the force.
however, the mind trick? that's the only scene that bothered me in that regard. it's just way to spezific. but I guess we have to wait for episode 9 to clear that up, because many things in her backstory imply that there are some memory shenannigans going on
but rey surely has some knowledge and skills that can't really be explained.
I guess her knowing the falcon so well could be explained by her scavenging and deep knowledge of any kind of starships. and her resisting kylo could be explained by an innate strenght in the force.
however, the mind trick? that's the only scene that bothered me in that regard. it's just way to spezific. but I guess we have to wait for episode 9 to clear that up, because many things in her backstory imply that there are some memory shenannigans going on
That part where he collapses S foils, flies into a tiny ass gap in the Thermal Regulator thingy AT SPEED, extends S fouls, blows the living hell out of the unarmored interior, and then flies back out all within like 2 minutes was kind of ridiculous, especially for somebody not force sensitive. If Rey had done that she'd probably have knocked a few important bits off of her ship, but instead Poe does it and it's just "awesome".
A lot of the 'issues' with Rey would have solved with a bit more care in direction and pacing, but then you can say that about the film as a whole itself.
I'm actually a bit bummed out that Abrams is getting so much positive press and kudos. A bit like his Star Trek he did the hard bit right (introducing the new cast) but fuck me he keeps making the same basic mistake again and again. He nailed the look and aped the tone on a superficial level but the whole thing is so fucking rushed, and so many short cuts and things which require expanded universe content to be put in proper context it's just a bit lazy.
kinoki
Illness is the doctor to whom we pay most heed; to kindness, to knowledge, we make promise only; pain we obey.
With a bulletpoint list that almost any hero figure can attest to she is somehow a Mary Sue? If that's the worst people can do (who want to smear) I'd say that Ambrams &Co succeeded. Compare that to any character in the prequels. Compare her to Obi-Wan, Padmé, Anakin or Mace. They're all these perfect little toy figures by George without any characteristics or flaws. They do things. That's all they do. They not resonate as people. Rey being talented isn't a Mary Sue. Look at her as a person and she's pretty flawed. She's introvert, a loner, depressed, major trust issues but have been brought up with a talent to not take slack and make the best out of what she's given. Luke is a brat compared to her. She wasn't given anything. Everything she has she has to fight for. In a situation like the fight with Kylo where she fights for her life and given access to the force she uses it to her advantage. She has the better odds.
No more of a move than Han or Lando pulled off in the Falcon in the OT. The asteroid field in Empire and interior flight into Death Star 2 in Jedi are no more or less complex examples of piloting than Poe exhibits in the Starkilllee assault.
Shit, even the ace-in-one over Moz' bar is only two ships more than Wedge manages in a single manoeuvre killing interceptors over Home One.
My theory on Rey & the mind-trick:
She knows the legends of the Jedi and is trying it out. I mean shit, even Ezra has manged it in Rebels.
Auto-Reply
Member
While these are valid points on their own, I don't think it's why all that happened the way it did, simply because of script writer intentions that must have a grander meaning to all of it.
Watch her to be the one who brings balance to the force, the chosen one by prophecy, in the next movies! (and some shocking relevations about her parents, probably powerful jedi or something)
Watch her to be the one who brings balance to the force, the chosen one by prophecy, in the next movies! (and some shocking relevations about her parents, probably powerful jedi or something)
Gun Animal
Member
Aw man, the single thing I was most looking forward to about Episode VIII was seeing a Luke's green lightsaber, it's so badass and really symbolizes Luke's development from "dumb kid with a jedi's lightsaber" to "a new kind of jedi with a new kind of lightsaber." The prequels muck all that up by presenting blue and green lightsabers as equally standard issue, with purple and yellow now the exotic lightsabers. But fuck the prequels!
My hope is that by episode IX, Luke's blue lightsaber ends up back with Finn, his green lightsaber ends up with Kylo for some dual-wielding action, and Rey constructs her own yellow lightsaber to help set her apart from past protagonists. Kylo ending up with a purple lightsaber might also be cool and reflect his status as a Dark Jedi, but it might remind people of Mace Windu a little too much.
This post here is like the beast mode of Star Wars fact checking, making complainers look like Jar Jar.
Blueboys1306
Banned
Is this the same character that, within the first 10 minutes gets captured by Kylo, tortured and gives away the info where bb-8 is?
THEN after getting rescued by Finn and gets away in a tie fighter gets shot down and crash lands on Jakku?!?
No, he's definitely no Gary/Mary Sue...
Rey is a Mary Sue if you don't believe she had previous beginner training as a Jedi as the flashback hints at.
My interpretation is that after RotJ, a lot about Jedi became known again. Everyone knew the story of Luke, regardless of if they thought he was myth or not. Rey, once figuring out she was chosen by the force, started attempting to use the known tricks. It didn't start out super strong, but gradually became more powerful by the end of it when she saw her friend in dire trouble. I wonder what her final form will be.
Of course, the movie is way more bombastic about force instinct in a similar way to the prequels. But it made for some pretty good scenes. I feel like the extent of the bombastic nature of the OT was limited by the FX technology of the time, but it also, maybe unintentionally, put a soft power cap on the lore that the prequels spat on/revised. TFA seems to try and find a
middle ground.
Of course, the movie is way more bombastic about force instinct in a similar way to the prequels. But it made for some pretty good scenes. I feel like the extent of the bombastic nature of the OT was limited by the FX technology of the time, but it also, maybe unintentionally, put a soft power cap on the lore that the prequels spat on/revised. TFA seems to try and find a
higher
I'm somewhat disappointed that the conversation has gone back to debating who is and is not a Mary Sue. Whether you agreed the way Rey got her achievements hold up under scrutiny or not, one of the things I talked about most is how it is a vague term that does nothing but obscufate the intended discussion. We should frame it around what the writing does, not what a character is.
Chuckie
Member
Not really. The story doesn't only involve her and she is not an authors self-insert.
Real Mary Sue's usually only occur in badly written fan-fiction (like Twilight)
Can Crusher
Banned
I personally think this complaint is pretty laughable, and it's pretty sad to see it consume the discussion to such a degree. The lack of complexity or faults to her character are a representation of the simplistic nature of most of the characters in Star Wars.
The lengths to which the debate goes in order to find complexity and interest in the screenplay of this movie is what's most interesting and worth debating, as it's a topic where you can actually learn from, more specifically about fandom/Hollywood/marketing of today.
Rey's "arch" in the movie being so basic and reminiscent of the kind you would see in shonnen anime isn't surprising at all. What's surprising is the search for justification.
The lengths to which the debate goes in order to find complexity and interest in the screenplay of this movie is what's most interesting and worth debating, as it's a topic where you can actually learn from, more specifically about fandom/Hollywood/marketing of today.
Rey's "arch" in the movie being so basic and reminiscent of the kind you would see in shonnen anime isn't surprising at all. What's surprising is the search for justification.
This has become such a weird and pointless debate. She's too good with the force, learns it too quick and too easily is the actual criticism that seems valid. I called it "nausicaa-itis" when I left the theater, simply because shes too good with her powers.
Hopefully its explained in the narrative for VIII and IX, but its a concern she thoroughly beat the villain of the series already. The "he killed his father and was shot" narrative just doesnt come across as a story beat, that hes very debilitated, onlt slightly.
It feels like if she would have been some savant with the force, there would be more a reaction from supporting characters, akin to the crews reaction to Neo's ability in the Matrix. I think her force ability just impacted people as strange, but I dont think it dramatically kills the appeal of the film or the character as a whole and Daisy Ridleys performance.
Hopefully its explained in the narrative for VIII and IX, but its a concern she thoroughly beat the villain of the series already. The "he killed his father and was shot" narrative just doesnt come across as a story beat, that hes very debilitated, onlt slightly.
It feels like if she would have been some savant with the force, there would be more a reaction from supporting characters, akin to the crews reaction to Neo's ability in the Matrix. I think her force ability just impacted people as strange, but I dont think it dramatically kills the appeal of the film or the character as a whole and Daisy Ridleys performance.
Gun Animal
Member
Part of OP's argument is that the term "Mary Sue" doesn't mean anything anymore due to overuse, and he's not wrong. Nearly any female protagonist in a fantasy/action/sci-fi story qualifies as a Mary Sue at this point due to overuse and vague definition. You're better off finding different terminology to voice your concerns.
For example, I think Rey is a little overpowered and unbalanced, and feels like a very intentional viewer-insert power fantasy. Her skill set is too broad right off the bat (she's already at ROTJ Luke levels of ability) and her personality is too flawless, almost reminding me of reboot Lara Croft. Overall, Finn came off as much more memorable because of the imperfections in his character, like his equal parts warranted fear and unwarranted courage, and his tendency to get a little too excited or romantic over things.
The funny thing is, Luke had very similar problems (not having enough character flaws, except maybe caring too much about his friends) and that's why Han Solo ended up being the most iconic character for most people, just as I predict Finn will be with this trilogy. In terms of faithfulness to and capturing the magic of the original trilogy Rey's personality is perfect.
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